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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 5 to 29 of 47. Go back in thread:
Posted by noa on October 12, 2000, at 10:20:04
In reply to mirror mirror on the wall..., posted by Jena Lyn on October 11, 2000, at 22:32:20
Good questions.
I think this is related to the thread I and medlib and ksvt have been doing on deep (non-verbal) self-experiences.For me, I have had such divergent experiences of my self depending on my mood, etc. and they have been experienced so separately, like switching tv channels. When watching one, I cannot see the other at all. Over time, in therapy, I have worked toward bringing them together, as seeing the whole me, depressed and not depressed, as one me. The metaphor that helps me is Picture-in-picture technology, like an inset in the tv screen to see more than one channel at a time, or like having two windows open on the computer at the same time. It has been slow, painstaking work to get to this point. These two senses of my self are still different, but I can at least "view" them at the same time, sometimes, and see them both as really me.
But I had to accept the idea that both are part of the real me, because I wanted so badly for the non-depresssed me to be the Real Me. But because I wanted it so badly, I was perpeutating the pendulum experience of my self, I think. Like running away from Depressed Me, only to be totally devasted if it snuck up and caught me by surprise again at some later time.
I think that people who struggle with mood disorders, especially if early in life, do miss out on some important developmental time in terms of developing a stable sense of self. But even those who are hit with Depression later in life struggle with identity. William Styron talked about not recognizing himself, for instance.
Posted by Ted on October 12, 2000, at 12:57:24
In reply to Who Am I?, posted by CarolynAnn on October 11, 2000, at 19:18:34
I think of it as the "old me" versus the "new me". Face it, none of us are CNPs (that's Chronically Normal Persons), and I like it better that way. CNPs seem to lack the "spark" that makes us unique. Of course, when we are depressed, life is miserable, not only for us, but for everyone around us as well. I don't care if we have to take meds to stay out of the depression hole. The "new me" is *definitely* the best. Well, maybe the "hypomanic me" feels better, but I don't want to go there anymore. :-)
Ted
Posted by noa on October 12, 2000, at 16:11:20
In reply to Re: Who Am I?, posted by Ted on October 12, 2000, at 12:57:24
I am glad you feel that way about yourself, but I myself can't say I like any of the effects of my depression in the way you are talking about. On the other hand, it has forced me to deal with it, to grow, etc. I still would give it up in a heartbeat if I could, and would opt for what you call CNP-ism for sure.
Posted by chdurie2 on October 12, 2000, at 21:21:50
In reply to Re: Who Am I?, posted by noa on October 12, 2000, at 16:11:20
> I am glad you feel that way about yourself, but I myself can't say I like any of the effects of my depression in the way you are talking about. On the other hand, it has forced me to deal with it, to grow, etc. I still would give it up in a heartbeat if I could, and would opt for what you call CNP-ism for sure.
Ted-Noa took the words right out of my mouth. As I read your words, I was wistfully thinking how much I'd love to be a Chronically Normal Person (great expression!)Bring me Leave It to Beaver and Donna Reed anyday. Right now I'm watching ER, and our depressed, druggie Dr. Carter has just resentfully checked himself into a three-month rehab program, and we know that although there may be a couple of dramatic bumps along the way, we also know that he'll make it and be a new, improved Dr. Carter. I wish I could have that sense of certainty about climbing out of my depression/anxiety, ocd, add and borderline problems.
It's a wonderful dream. I doubt it will ever be real.
Caroline
Posted by hello on October 12, 2000, at 21:53:35
In reply to Who Am I?, posted by CarolynAnn on October 11, 2000, at 19:18:34
I can completely relate. I am just starting antidepressants- which is more stressful than I ever imagined. I've gone from one crap therapist who told me I have late 20's angst and that life isn't supposed to always be fun, to one that said I'm a high risk case because of my drug use. Now I'm filtering though my friends- I can't drink, do drugs, and the anti-d
s make me too tired for anything. I am not convinced it's worth it. I am on Celexa, which has side effects of anxiety and insomnia. That's what my problem was in the first place! Sorry, just had to let off some steam. It's good to see other people are evaluating how this works and not just accepting the personality changes
Posted by Cindy W on October 13, 2000, at 9:52:39
In reply to Re: mirror mirror on the wall..., posted by noa on October 12, 2000, at 10:20:04
> Good questions.
>
>
> I think this is related to the thread I and medlib and ksvt have been doing on deep (non-verbal) self-experiences.
>
> For me, I have had such divergent experiences of my self depending on my mood, etc. and they have been experienced so separately, like switching tv channels. When watching one, I cannot see the other at all. Over time, in therapy, I have worked toward bringing them together, as seeing the whole me, depressed and not depressed, as one me. The metaphor that helps me is Picture-in-picture technology, like an inset in the tv screen to see more than one channel at a time, or like having two windows open on the computer at the same time. It has been slow, painstaking work to get to this point. These two senses of my self are still different, but I can at least "view" them at the same time, sometimes, and see them both as really me.
>
> But I had to accept the idea that both are part of the real me, because I wanted so badly for the non-depresssed me to be the Real Me. But because I wanted it so badly, I was perpeutating the pendulum experience of my self, I think. Like running away from Depressed Me, only to be totally devasted if it snuck up and caught me by surprise again at some later time.
>
> I think that people who struggle with mood disorders, especially if early in life, do miss out on some important developmental time in terms of developing a stable sense of self. But even those who are hit with Depression later in life struggle with identity. William Styron talked about not recognizing himself, for instance.Noa, your posts are always so well-thought out and articulate! Agree that it's hard to have a good sense of self if the mood disorder starts early in life (it was that way for me).
Posted by Ted on October 13, 2000, at 14:27:18
In reply to Re: Who Am I? Ditto...I'd love CNP, posted by chdurie2 on October 12, 2000, at 21:21:50
Noa, Hello, Chdurie2, and all,
(This is gonna be a little long, so bear with me)
Please re-read my post. Depression is hell -- no mistaking that. But once treated successfully, don't you find yourself feeling different from CNPs? Remember, we have had experiences that CNPs will never have. Most of our experiences are terrible, but because of them, we can understand and relate to others much better. And our experiences often provide creativity that others lack.
When I came home from the hospital in May, 1999, after a week in psych ICU for bipolar disorder rapid cycling, I was talking with a neighbor. He is in his 50s and he asked me what depression was. What did it feel like, etc. He had never experienced depression in his life! Now, if one of us has a friend who is suffering a bout of depression, don't you think we would be more understanding than my CNP neighbor?
Another example: before I was diagnosed, I considered all drug addicts to be low-life failures that did not deserve help. My perspective is so different now, it is difficult for me to explain. I now understand that most addiction is an attempt to self-treat depression, bipolar disorder, ADD, etc. Addicts are sick people like all of us, and they need the same understanding and treatment. I now believe once treated, most addicts would avoid street drugs & excessive alcohol.
A little about me: I'm 39. I have known depression & bipolar-II disorder since I was 9. I didn't understand until I was about 13 what depression was. I would rapid cycle from long periods (months) of depression to short periods (days to weeks) of hypomania. When I was in college, I jokingly called it "manic-depression" not knowing how correct my self-diagnosis was! It wasn't until Jan 1999 that I sought help. This was after 3 major depressive crises, each lasting more than 2 years, and a long period of depression with no hypomania lasting 4-5 years. I couldn't handle the paxil I was given, so I stopped it. As my depression worsened, I sought a pdoc and was given zoloft. Over the next 6 days, I cycled from severe hypomania (or moderate real mania) to *severe* depression three times (each cycle was 48 hours). On the verge of suicide, my wife took me to the local hospital. My meds were adjusted (depakote added, then wellbutring also) and now I am on the road to feeling really rather well, though far from CNPish :-). My experience has taught me that there are *millions* of people with similar or worse conditions that need help and support. I do my part by making annual cash donations (with matching funds from my employer) to the hospital where I was treated to be directed to their PICU ward.
Take care all,
Ted
Posted by shar on October 13, 2000, at 21:20:36
In reply to Re: Who Am I? Ditto...I'd love CNP Noa and all, posted by Ted on October 13, 2000, at 14:27:18
Gosh, No CNP for me please. I have weirdnesses that are part of me aside from depression that I'd want to keep. I love being around people who are interesting, eclectic, curious, have in depth knowledge of trivial things, maybe eccentric, and whose decorative little boxes sitting around are never empty.
I want to keep my eccentricities, and other oddnesses, and wouldn't be Mrs. Beaver for the world and all its gold. Now, if I could be not depressed and/or suicidal most of the time, I'd really love that.
And, I have a hard time believing there is a "normal" -- if your neighbor, Ted, had never experienced depression (even situational), I'd think he was not very tuned in or self-aware psych wise. Not criticism, just observing that in MY EXPERIENCE many CNPs seem to sometimes lack a certain depth or breadth of feeling or awareness.
Oh--I was a housewife (as it was called in those days) for a few years, and the gin rummy was good but that was THE high point of the week.
Shar
Posted by coral on October 14, 2000, at 8:25:51
In reply to Pass on the CNP » Ted, posted by shar on October 13, 2000, at 21:20:36
What great thoughts, insights, and questions! I'll pass on the CNP, too. I say this on the healing side of my second "diagnosed" clinical depression. I don't believe I was truly depressed before these two episodes (6 years apart), but I certainly engaged in self-destructive behaviors. Admittedly, in darker moments, I've craved the life of the CNP who routinely goes to work every day at 9:00, home at 5:15, does grocery shopping on Thursdays, and has dental appointments every six months, right on schedule . . . but that desire passed rather quickly. In the darkest moments, all I wanted was peace. The only constant in my entire life of 49 years has been writing. Would I sacrifice that creative talent to be free of pain? No.
Of all the things about me that have varying degrees of truth, my writing is pure truth -- even though I primarily write fiction. For me, the struggle seems to be allowing myself to be who I really am, rather than who other people want me to be. I was intrigued by the "RM" me and "DM" me and confess that my core identity never separated that way. I am me, sometimes depressed, mostly not. In fact, I go to the opposite extreme and see depression as this beast who has crept into my house, intent on stealing my soul and see anxiety/panic attacks as vicious, little demons like a horde of hungry mosquitoes. Mosquitoes that pack the wallop of an F-14.
I'm being buffered right now w/meds (Zoloft, Librium, and Ambien) like a great, big inner tube in a roiling sea and am carefully monitoring how soon I can let the inner tube go and swim on my own. The driving force? My writing. I can't "get to that spot" to write while on these meds and that void is like breathing very thin oxygen, enough to stay alive, but not living. Who am I? Right now, a writer wearing mittens.
Posted by Rzip on October 14, 2000, at 12:25:15
In reply to mirror mirror on the wall..., posted by Jena Lyn on October 11, 2000, at 22:32:20
> I would like to find the "real me" too. And I am in therapy. But I am very manipulative, even when I do not intend to be. So, therapy is not exactly working right now. I noticed that a lot of you guys are on meds. Isn't it scary to be on meds? Considering it is not a natural product of your body. What if it does more harm than good. Afterall, these meds effects your brain, a very essential organ.
I am very much against taking meds. I am not sure why. My therapist thinks it is because I do not want to get better. She is probably half right.
Cordially,
RzipI think about this all the time ... it seems like who I was for years before I was on meds and in therapy, the girl I was was always SEARCHING for the real me ... and I think that only now am I starting to discover her. I think the real me is who Im BECOMING. Im learning to let go of all the insecurities that have held me back for SO long, and Im finding out that Im a pretty great person inside...and it took therapy, and my meds for me to find that out ...
> Jena
Posted by Ted on October 14, 2000, at 14:53:16
In reply to Pass on the CNP » Ted, posted by shar on October 13, 2000, at 21:20:36
Hi Shar,
>Gosh, No CNP for me please. I have weirdnesses
>that are part of me aside from depression that
>I'd want to keep.We sound like twins! My wife and I joke that no one else would want us because of our respective weirdnesses. :-)
>I love being around people who are interesting,
>eclectic, curious, have in depth knowledge of
>trivial things, maybe eccentric, and whose
>decorative little boxes sitting around are never
>empty.That's me alright! No one has *ever* called me normal. :-)
> And, I have a hard time believing there is
>a "normal" -- if your neighbor, Ted, had never
>experienced depression (even situational), I'd
>think he was not very tuned in or self-aware
>psych wise.I agree 100%. But he, his wife, and their kids are closer to Ward & June Cleaver & Wally & The Beaver than you can imagine.
> Oh--I was a housewife
"domestic logistician"
>and the gin rummy was good but that was THE
>high point of the week.Uggh. I would hang out in the library or something. Anything! :-)
Take care,
Ted
Posted by shar on October 14, 2000, at 19:19:43
In reply to Re: mirror mirror on the wall... » Jena Lyn, posted by Rzip on October 14, 2000, at 12:25:15
Rzip,
About the meds, we all have to make our own decisions. On Psychobabble you will find people who share your view in abundance, people who are willing to try almost anything to get out of hell, and people who feel they've tried everything and will give meds a chance, and people who only want to go the natural route (vitamins, herbs, supplements, etc.), and people who are just beginning to think about trying meds.It is a personal decision, and mine is the one about trying to get out of hell, the deep dark black pit of paralyzing breathtaking and heart shattering pain. I figure my brain without meds wasn't doing so well, and after 25 years or so decided to try meds--reluctantly.
I am not in hell while on meds, but I would like to feel even better. And I will continue to give meds a chance, based on my own research, information I gain from others, and meetings with my p-doc.
But, again, it is a personal decision based on each individuals different personal reasons. For me it is scary, but not as scary as hell.
Shar
Posted by cs on October 15, 2000, at 11:29:57
In reply to Who Am I?, posted by CarolynAnn on October 11, 2000, at 19:18:34
Carol ANne, When I had my first severe depession 5 years ago, the depressed person was not me! Once I started feeling the effects of the anti-depressants the real me came back. When in the depression I felt like "I had died", and it was like mourning your own death. I believe that anti-depressants don't change you but help you be yourself. CS
Posted by ksvt on October 15, 2000, at 15:36:21
In reply to Re: Who Am I?, posted by cs on October 15, 2000, at 11:29:57
> Carol ANne, When I had my first severe depession 5 years ago, the depressed person was not me! Once I started feeling the effects of the anti-depressants the real me came back. When in the depression I felt like "I had died", and it was like mourning your own death. I believe that anti-depressants don't change you but help you be yourself. CS
My therapist frequently tries to get me to compare myself pre-depression and post-depression. I can remember times when I was significantly more non-functioning than I am now, but I can't remember what it felt like to be depression free. I think this is because regardless of whether or not I was clinically depressed, I was certainly dealing with the same set of insecurities and self esteem issues that I am now. I'm not sure what a CNP is. I fantasize about being a different person from the one I am now, but even my fantasy of a depression free life involves a woman who struggles with mood swings. Maybe I've just become more realistic (and hopefully eventually less perfectionist). How do you reconcile what we go through with the fact that many people probably think many of us are CNPs? I know better, but I work very hard to mask my depressive periods, and I think I do a decent job at it. My life as a depressed person is a very internalized one. I'd love to hear from others for whom this is also true. ksvt
Posted by CarolynAnn on October 15, 2000, at 18:23:58
In reply to Re: Who Am I?, posted by ksvt on October 15, 2000, at 15:36:21
> Wow...I hadn't checked the board for a few days, and was I ever surprised to see so many responses to my topic! Thank you all! I still haven't figured out who I am...and maybe that's what life is...a task of discovering who you are! But I know that my very first symptom of SRI "poop-out" is a personality change. Lots of irritability and difficulty with decisions. I know that before I ever took antidepressants I struggled with a lot of insecurity, shyness, lack of self-esteem. But now I only seem to need to deal with those issues when depressed. For me, taking antidepressants (when I found one that worked) was like taking a magical self-esteem pill. When I am not depressed I am self confident, outgoing and much more capable of caring for others. Definitely a nicer person. Nicer to myself as well as nicer to those around me. So I guess what I am wondering is, is the "essence" of me the "good" me or the "bad" me? I have spent quite a few years in therapy...it never helped much. Only the medication has made a difference. Now my p-doc doesn't even try therapy...as long as the meds are working, there seems to be no need for it...and when they're not working I just can't deal with it. Thanks for listening!
Posted by Ted on October 15, 2000, at 20:33:31
In reply to Re: Who Am I?, posted by cs on October 15, 2000, at 11:29:57
CS,
That's great. What about me, who has known only depression for most of my life? Only now I am feeling the effects of depression that is neither continuous nor severe.
Ted
> Carol ANne, When I had my first severe depession 5 years ago, the depressed person was not me! Once I started feeling the effects of the anti-depressants the real me came back. When in the depression I felt like "I had died", and it was like mourning your own death. I believe that anti-depressants don't change you but help you be yourself. CS
Posted by noa on October 16, 2000, at 8:26:20
In reply to Re: Pass on the CNP, posted by coral on October 14, 2000, at 8:25:51
>I was intrigued by the "RM" me and "DM" me and confess that my core identity never separated that way. I am me, sometimes depressed, mostly not. In fact, I go to the opposite extreme and see depression as this beast who has crept into my house, intent on stealing my soul...
Being able to see the depression as an external threat is a good thing, something I work at all the time. Sometimes I can, sometimes, the depression is in me, and I cannot see it as outside. Sometimes it is a mixture--it is a beast but I am the beast.
I am curious, you mentioned having two episodes, 6 years apart, and I wonder how old you were at the first episode, and whether you think age of onset might be related to this phenomenon of depression-self blurring.
Posted by noa on October 16, 2000, at 8:29:03
In reply to Re: Who Am I?, posted by cs on October 15, 2000, at 11:29:57
>I believe that anti-depressants don't change you but help you be yourself. CS
Again, I wonder if because your first episode was recent, you already had a solid sense of self, so it is clearer to you that DM is not you at all.
Posted by CarolAnn on October 16, 2000, at 9:29:48
In reply to Re: Who Am I?, posted by CarolynAnn on October 15, 2000, at 18:23:58
Hey CarolynAnn,
Not only are our names similar, we also seem to have the same type of depression experience. I haven't found an anti-depressant that really works, but my doctor gave me Adderall (a stimulant) for my extreme fatigue, and when I first started taking it, I felt like a 'normal' person for the first time in my life. It was like a 'fog' lifted off my brain, and for the first time in my life, I could 'see' who I was. Unfortunatly, after the first couple months, the Adderall lost most of it's effectiveness, now it mainly just gives me a little energy boost. I think I'm going to try Adrafinil, which I will have to order from an internet company(it's not available in the US.).
Well, I wish you good luck in finding a good antidepressant, I've been thru most of them, and haven't found the right one yet. Take Care, CarolAnn
Posted by coral on October 16, 2000, at 15:56:16
In reply to Re: Pass on the CNP » coral, posted by noa on October 16, 2000, at 8:26:20
Dear Noa,
The first episode was when I was 41 and the second one (now) is happening at 49. With the first depressive episode, I lost 3 1/2 years before getting appropriate intervention (11 docs in all) and it took me a year to heal. This episode hit last month. With the first one, I felt as if I'd been knocked down the rabbit hole with Alice. With this one, I intellectually know what's happening - it's just the emotional side that's a mess, but I am healing. I'm not sure what you meant about age playing a part -- if I just deal emotionally, the black beast wins. I have to keep thinking and processing what's coming through this depression.
Posted by noa on October 16, 2000, at 17:43:39
In reply to Re: Pass on the CNP to Noa, posted by coral on October 16, 2000, at 15:56:16
Sounds like you were hit hard, Coral.
What I meant was that for people who start having depressive episodes earlier in life, maybe the Me-not Me question is more of an issue than it would be for people, like you, who first experience depression later on, well after their sense of self is established and solid. Maybe that is why you are able to see the depression as outside your self, although it is an effort, as you say. Just a hypothesis.
Posted by ksvt on October 16, 2000, at 20:07:01
In reply to Re: Pass on the CNP » coral, posted by noa on October 16, 2000, at 8:26:20
> >I was intrigued by the "RM" me and "DM" me and confess that my core identity never separated that way. I am me, sometimes depressed, mostly not. In fact, I go to the opposite extreme and see depression as this beast who has crept into my house, intent on stealing my soul...
>
> Being able to see the depression as an external threat is a good thing, something I work at all the time. Sometimes I can, sometimes, the depression is in me, and I cannot see it as outside. Sometimes it is a mixture--it is a beast but I am the beast.
>
> I am curious, you mentioned having two episodes, 6 years apart, and I wonder how old you were at the first episode, and whether you think age of onset might be related to this phenomenon of depression-self blurring.Noa - please elaborate on what you mean by seeing depression as an external threat. ksvt
Posted by noa on October 17, 2000, at 6:33:54
In reply to Re: Pass on the CNP, posted by ksvt on October 16, 2000, at 20:07:01
Ksvt, what I meant is that when you imagine your depression, does it seem to be something separate, outside yourself? Like Coral's image of a beast--something attacking from outside the self.
If one can picture their depression as something separate, and outside the self, I think it is easier to preserve a positive sense of self, whereas those of us who have felt depression is part of our self may have a harder time feeling like we like ourselves.
I guess my hypothesis is that people who have suffered from depression from a young age are more likely to have difficulty separating their experience of depression from their experience of their self, at least while depressed (for me, anyway, my thinking is mood-dependent). And, people who encounter depression for the first time as adults, may not have as much difficulty with this--they have a solid sense of who they are, and see the depression as something other than them.
Does this make sense?
Posted by Nibor on October 17, 2000, at 7:27:51
In reply to Re: Pass on the CNP » ksvt, posted by noa on October 17, 2000, at 6:33:54
Hi, I have been reading this very interesting discussion.
I thought it might be helpful, so here is a bit from an introductory chapter of Undoing Depression. If anyone would like to see more of the intro or any other section, please let me know. I have been thinking of putting the entire introduction on our website (http://www.undoingdepression.com)...or some other chapter from the book. Do you think that would be good?> Ksvt, what I meant is that when you imagine your depression, does it seem to be something separate, outside yourself? Like Coral's image of a beast--something attacking from outside the self.
> If one can picture their depression as something separate, and outside the self, I think it is easier to preserve a positive sense of self, whereas those of us who have felt depression is part of our self may have a harder time feeling like we like ourselves.
>
> I guess my hypothesis is that people who have suffered from depression from a young age are more likely to have difficulty separating their experience of depression from their experience of their self, at least while depressed (for me, anyway, my thinking is mood-dependent). And, people who encounter depression for the first time as adults, may not have as much difficulty with this--they have a solid sense of who they are, and see the depression as something other than them.
>
> Does this make sense?Most people who have had a true experience with depression have no trouble at all believing that something biochemical in nature has happened to them. The change in mood, in how the self and the world are perceived, seems so profound and overwhelming that it makes intuitive sense to feel that the self has been invaded by something alien. We do not feel like our selves. Something very powerful, something from outside us, has invaded and changed us.
But most people with depression also recognize that this feeling which seems so foreign is also very familiar. They remember many times from their childhood and adolescence when they felt the same way. They felt alone, helpless, and friendless. They may remember their parents as kind and loving, but they wonder why they felt so unloved. They may have believed that they had to be perfect, and they may have tried very hard, but failed, and felt again the futility of their efforts. As adults, they may have thought they’d grown out of it, but here it is again. Winston Churchill referred to his depression as the "black dog"--the familiar beast that quietly pads in in the evening and settles down at your feet.
Depression is a disease both of the mind and body, the present and the past. In psychiatry now we have pitched battles going on between opposing camps, those who want to treat the brain and those who want to treat the mind. Both sides have powerful motives for pushing their own theories, some of which are idealistic and some of which are ignoble. Unfortunately, the patient is caught in the middle. The family doctor, supported by the pharmaceutical industry, is likely to say "take this pill"—but when it doesn't work, the patient just has another in a long line of failures to add to his baggage. The mental health professional is likely to say "let's talk about it"—and the patient is likely to feel patronized, misunderstood, because how can simply talking cure such terrible pain?
It's not an either-or question. Both ways of thinking are true. Both points of view have much to contribute to helping the depressed patient and his family. Both also have a lot to teach people who simply want to raise emotionally resilient children in a difficult world. There is a biochemical process to depression, but the individual has been made susceptible to depression through life experiences. The current episode may be precipitated by an external event, but the event has set in motion a change in the way the brain functions.
Posted by noa on October 17, 2000, at 9:38:58
In reply to Something has invaded and changed us. LONG, posted by Nibor on October 17, 2000, at 7:27:51
> it makes intuitive sense to feel that the self has been invaded by something alien. Something very powerful, something from outside us, has invaded and changed us.
Thanks, Robin. as I read the above, I had this thought that depression can be seen as somewhat analogous to AIDS, in that the invading alien attacks and changes the very thing inside us that we would otherwise use to combat the invasion, making this self-protective mechanism (immune system) weak, and potentially powerless against this and other invaders.
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