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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by alexandra_k on April 21, 2014, at 16:57:57
In reply to Re: He called!!!!, posted by Dinah on April 21, 2014, at 16:13:02
oh that's wonderful! i'm so happy!
uh... what happened?
just a short, general version... maybe i've become a bit attached to him myself. have been wracking my brains...
Posted by 10derheart on April 21, 2014, at 17:48:17
In reply to He called!!!!, posted by Dinah on April 21, 2014, at 16:12:11
That's wonderful. It really is. I can remember when I thought everything was fixed, the lightness inside, the energy of having most of the crushing pain lifted off of me...I swear I felt like I could fly. I hope you're feeling something as good as that or better. I have a strong feeling your resolution really will be one, although the talking through it may be really something very, very difficult.
I sent you a long email.
Posted by Dinah on April 21, 2014, at 17:50:38
In reply to Re: He called!!!!, posted by alexandra_k on April 21, 2014, at 16:57:57
Now I know what happened, I feel more uncomfortable about sharing. Before it was just my guesses and deductions. As far as I can tell, he hasn't done anything wrong and his license isn't in jeopardy. I was right in my belief that he wasn't *able* to contact me. And he actually seems to have kept me in his mind better than I had expected. When he contacted me, he said things in such a way that I knew he remembered things in the past that I'd found helpful, even if he isn't reading Babble. Things I hadn't said here - at least not recently, but that I'd said in the past to him.
Both his offices are closed, and his number is sort of suspended rather than disconnected. He's planning to return, but probably to join a group practice rather than solo. Which ought to give me some reassurance that this will never happen again, yet oddly doesn't. I guess I keep remembering the woman who I hated so much, and who was only better than no one at all in that she told me he wasn't dying. Otherwise she was worse.
He said he supposed I had had plenty to say on Babble, and hoped someone had been around here for me to say it to. So I expect even if he didn't read here, he pretty much knew what I said.
Posted by Dinah on April 21, 2014, at 18:00:12
In reply to Re: He called!!!! » Dinah, posted by 10derheart on April 21, 2014, at 17:48:17
I don't at all feel like everything is fixed. In fact, in my recent dreams about him, my conclusion has been that there is really nothing he can say to cancel the incredible pain his not in some way - indirectly at least - communicating with me has caused.
My husband was afraid to leave me alone for days. He worked from home and checked on me constantly. My work was disrupted for weeks. My stomach may or may not recover.
I suppose he could promise to have something in place to be better next time. But I'm relatively sure that we'd had this discussion any number of times. I even brought him an article. It didn't do much good.
However, some sort of resolution has already been reached. I know for certain he couldn't contact me directly, and that he didn't forget me or discount twenty years of working hard at building a relationship. That was the only thing that could make this at all bearable, and I was determined to believe that no matter what.
I'm so glad I had taken to answering calls with unknown phone numbers. I usually never do that. Every time I reached out for the phone, I cursed myself for a fool for thinking he'd contact me. Yet I did it anyway.
Posted by alexandra_k on April 21, 2014, at 20:44:30
In reply to Re: He called!!!! » 10derheart, posted by Dinah on April 21, 2014, at 18:00:12
good enough... in some respects. sounds like he was. he *is*.
i do know what you mean, i think.
my therapist... in not scheduling a space for me after i gave him a good months prior warning of my return (and he said he's save space for me before i left)...
wasn't good enough.
and i never trusted him again. i don't think he got that...
anyway... sorry... ruminating a bit on me... you... sounds like your trust in him wasn't misplaced. so glad.
Posted by baseball55 on April 21, 2014, at 20:49:57
In reply to Re: He called!!!!, posted by alexandra_k on April 21, 2014, at 20:44:30
It must be such a relief to at least hear from him and know he thought of you and is okay. But, or course, you're going to be wary and more careful in the future. It's self-protective. You can only be so vulnerable to someone who is, after all, only human.
Posted by Kimberly April on April 21, 2014, at 22:00:17
In reply to Re: He called!!!! » alexandra_k, posted by Dinah on April 21, 2014, at 17:50:38
Dinah,
I don't know what happened except that you hadn't heard from your therapist for quite sometime. These are the type of things in therapy that are confusing and painful, and cause us to feel vulnerable all over again. I am so glad he called you, especially since you've seen him for so long. I hope that call took the sting of the pain away. Thanks for sharing your feelings here.
Posted by Phillipa on April 22, 2014, at 10:26:24
In reply to Re: He called!!!!, posted by Kimberly April on April 21, 2014, at 22:00:17
Although I don't know the strong attachment that you have to your therapist. I have been following and wanted you to know that I'm so glad that he contacted you. P
Posted by Poet on April 22, 2014, at 11:57:23
In reply to He called!!!!, posted by Dinah on April 21, 2014, at 16:12:11
Hooray! As you said you don't know what the future will hold, but you finally got a well deserved answer. You're also right that what was done can't be undone, but at least he finally realized that you deserved personal contact.
Poet
Posted by Dinah on April 22, 2014, at 18:32:31
In reply to Re: He called!!!!, posted by alexandra_k on April 21, 2014, at 20:44:30
No, I don't think it was totally misplaced. And he did care enough to remember what he should say and, more importantly, what he shouldn't say. The second is far harder than the first.
I suppose "good enough" is something time will tell. And maybe the end answer won't be a yes or no, but something in between. There may be a question of "good enough" for what?
Posted by Dinah on April 22, 2014, at 18:34:33
In reply to Re: He called!!!!, posted by baseball55 on April 21, 2014, at 20:49:57
Yes, absolutely I'm glad he called. It was a relief to hear him sounding pretty good really. I did worry so much. Knowing is always far better than not knowing.
Posted by Dinah on April 22, 2014, at 18:37:50
In reply to Re: He called!!!!, posted by Kimberly April on April 21, 2014, at 22:00:17
I've been seeing him for twenty years, usually twice a week. He basically disappeared suddenly with just a generic message that he was out on extended medical leave and didn't know when he'd return.
It was a relief to hear from him, and now I can stop the obsessive internet searches.
Thanks. :)
Posted by Dinah on April 22, 2014, at 18:38:11
In reply to Re: He called!!!!, posted by Phillipa on April 22, 2014, at 10:26:24
Posted by Dinah on April 22, 2014, at 18:41:38
In reply to Re: He called!!!! » Dinah, posted by Poet on April 22, 2014, at 11:57:23
Finally!!!
Therapists really need some sort of plan. Mine should have had one that involved someone telling his longest term client more of what was going on.
I can't help wondering if he would have ever called me if he hadn't decided to return to practice...
My inner cynic is never far away.
Posted by alexandra_k on April 22, 2014, at 19:41:28
In reply to Re: He called!!!! » alexandra_k, posted by Dinah on April 22, 2014, at 18:32:31
I was thinking about something from Kohut... Or maybe it was Winnicott...
About how disappointments and let downs etc etc etc were inevitable. Clients... Simply would have needs that exceeded the resources of the world. Like the child... The rage at the empty breast or something like that... Sometimes the world doesn't co-operate... And that isn't anyones fault.
And something, something, something, about the process of coming to terms with the way the world is. The reality constraint. Or something like that... Maybe that was Klein or somebody else.
Anyway... The idea is that attachment figures simply can't be perfect. There simply will be times when the clients need exceeds resources...
Kohut (pretty sure) thought that people didn't typically have difficulty coming to terms with that, though. Guess he was dealing with first world problems there etc... Or maybe not, actually, anyway, I digress... He thought that trauma wasn't due to that... That people were actually pretty good at coming to terms with that... So long as their caregiver was 'good enough'.
Apparently there are tracts and tracts and tracts written about what he meant by 'good enough'. Not entirely sure why because it seems fairly clear to me... Maybe because I need to think harder... Anyway... I think it is something about the attachment figure... Genuinely caring. Holding in mind. Empathising properly with the plight of the unmet need. Doing what is in their power. Not internalizing / lashing out for what isn't...
Sometimes this works, for some people anyway. Maybe for all given enough time. Or all rational ones (whatever that means).
Like how... I'm very sensitive to rejection. Because I don't attach, really. And so my being anxious about continuing on with my therapist after a period of going overseas... Was something that weighed heavily. I don't think I would have gone to the US if he hadn't have said he would keep a place open for me on my return. And then I let him know around 1 month prior to my returning... And that was within the couple months that we planned before I left... And I told him my flight details and everything...
And then when I got back he was all like 'phone my secretary if you want to make an appointment to see me but there isn't anything for a few months'. And... He didn't hold me in mind at all. And he didn't see that I took a huge risk in... Trusting him to be there for me when I got back. He didn't even realize that I did trust him. He couldn't even tell that that was my being attached. That I actually got attached to him. So I lost it, rather.
If he'd have acknowledged that he said he'd keep a space open... And said that due to unforseen whatever whatever there didn't happen to be one... If he'd just have empathised properly with where I was coming from (not altering the reality of my not being able to get into see him at all)... It would have been... Manageable. Not okay, actually. But... Manageable. Not an issue of misplaced or broken trust which is fairly irreparable.
Or again, if I turn up for an appointment and therapist isn't there because 'they forgot' that is a much much much much much bigger deal than if they got hit by a bus. The later is forgivable (I'd feel guilty for raging at them, even). The former... Not really so... Unless they forgot because their parent died or something... I could come to terms with that.
Your therapist didn't just forget you. Bail on you. He did hold you in mind... Differently from how he held his other patients in mind. Which seems appropriate given the history of your relationship. He did give you the explanation that you were in fact owed etc etc. He... Honored your relationship appropriately given the circumstances - yes?
The reality... He might in fact get hit by a bus. He might have another episode and be ferretted away 'for his own good'. There might be a hurricane... Life sucks sometimes... He's still the therapist he was, yeah?
My therapist... His forte was being there in the moment. There wasn't really anything else with him. When I was there in front of him... He was one of the most present people I've ever been with. If that makes sense. But holding me in mind? No. Not his forte, at all. I suppose in a sense... I have come to terms with that. As The Way He Is... Over the years. But I suppose it did mean that his uh... Usefulness (for want of a better word) to me was... Limited. The in the moment thing... It is still fairly unclear to me how much that retraumatised vs detraumatised me... I suppose it made me aware of my inability to be present with anyone.
Posted by baseball55 on April 22, 2014, at 19:52:23
In reply to Re: He called!!!!, posted by alexandra_k on April 22, 2014, at 19:41:28
That's sad, Alex. To feel so understood and then have a therapist just seem to put you out of mind. God! These relationships are so hard anyway. It just makes things worse when a therapist can't handle all the attachments and transference emotions well.
I count myself as amazingly lucky to have two(!) therapists - a pdoc whom I now see only once a month and a LICSW I see once a week -- who are really skillful and reliable about handling the relationship.
Posted by Tabitha on April 23, 2014, at 23:33:54
In reply to Re: He called!!!! » Poet, posted by Dinah on April 22, 2014, at 18:41:38
I'm happy for you. It would not have made sense to just never hear from him.
Posted by Dinah on April 29, 2014, at 18:41:24
In reply to Re: He called!!!!, posted by alexandra_k on April 22, 2014, at 19:41:28
I'm sorry, Alex. Your therapist was *not* good enough. I know how fortunate I am in comparison. My therapist, in the big picture, did keep me in his mind.
I don't know. I guess I feel kind of guilty about thinking that things can't, and maybe shouldn't, get back to the way they were. Maybe it's because I was coming to the point where I wanted to cut back anyway. Maybe it's just that therapy and Babble can be the biggest sources of distress in my life. My everyday life is quite stable, really. I'm not naturally a big risk taker, emotionally or in any other way.
I love him dearly. I don't want to quit seeing him entirely. But I think it would be foolish beyond measure to allow myself to rely on him emotionally ever again. He didn't let me down in the sense that he didn't knowingly abandon me (my cynical inner voice aside). But his actions caused me incredible pain.
I'm very glad he called. I have a far better feeling about my relationship with him and myself as a person because of it. I no longer feel so much like I'm not love-able. I'm definitely not saying that I won't see him as a therapist ever again. I recognize that the largest part of this was beyond his control. I have enormous empathy with his situation. But I don't want to be vulnerable to him again.
Posted by Dinah on April 29, 2014, at 18:43:03
In reply to Re: He called!!!!, posted by Tabitha on April 23, 2014, at 23:33:54
Thanks :)
Do you think I would have ever heard from him if he weren't planning to go back into practice and wasn't aware of my steady source of income?
Posted by Tabitha on April 30, 2014, at 15:09:32
In reply to Re: He called!!!! » Tabitha, posted by Dinah on April 29, 2014, at 18:43:03
> Do you think I would have ever heard from him if he weren't planning to go back into practice and wasn't aware of my steady source of income?
Of course I can't know, but I would think "planning to go back into practice" is a bigger factor than being aware of your income. As a person who had to leave a career due to sudden unexpected health problems, I notice it can be painful to stay connected to people in my field because it reminds me of the loss (plus my own shame over being sick and disappearing suddenly). When I think I'll really never work in that field again, it doesn't seem worth the pain of maintaining the connections. When I think I may want to return, then I want to pick up those connections again. It's nothing to do with the value of those relationships. Purely my own self-protection at work. But of course I hope your therapist has better relationship skills and emotional self-regulation than I do.
Posted by Phillipa on April 30, 2014, at 19:50:35
In reply to Re: He called!!!!, posted by Tabitha on April 30, 2014, at 15:09:32
I know how you feel. Had to leave psych nursing due to own problems. So I broke the ties. Less painful. I do get it. Phillipa
Posted by Dinah on May 1, 2014, at 17:06:04
In reply to Re: He called!!!!, posted by Tabitha on April 30, 2014, at 15:09:32
Neither of you is a therapist, so it's not quite the same thing. But if a therapist's clients *are* in that position, it seems highly desirable *not* to be vulnerable to that therapist.
As it stands, my therapist was able to do something that might have been a bit intimidating to do. Goodness only knows, I've reacted with extreme anger the other times he's abandoned me. He was likely thinking something similar might happen. It can't have been easy for him to pick up that phone, and be relatively open with me.
And I certainly understand that contacting me was too much for him at one point.
But would he have, because it was easier and likely to bring less pain to himself, caused incredible pain to another person? One who cared very much for him and relied on him?
Again, you aren't a therapist. It isn't the same. My therapist always said he recognized the sacredness of the therapeutic space. He recognized the responsibility a therapist has to his clients. I like to think that whatever he decided to do, he would have contacted me when he was able to do so. And perhaps to some extent I do believe that he would do that unless time had put me out of his mind. I guess my faith in his keeping me in mind when I'm not in front of him isn't strong.
Posted by Tabitha on May 1, 2014, at 17:36:47
In reply to Well, see. There it is., posted by Dinah on May 1, 2014, at 17:06:04
Oh dear, I'm afraid it sounded like I was taking his side. For that I'm sorry.
Of course my professional situation wasn't the same at all. One has to hope that therapists have much higher standards for maintaining (and ending) relationships so they don't cause harm or un-do the help they've done. Whatever it cost him to contact you, I'm glad he did it and think you very much deserved the effort.
Posted by Tabitha on May 1, 2014, at 19:32:59
In reply to Re: He called!!!! » Tabitha, posted by Phillipa on April 30, 2014, at 19:50:35
> I know how you feel. Had to leave psych nursing due to own problems. So I broke the ties. Less painful. I do get it. Phillipa
Thank you for understanding Phillipa. Sorry to hijack Dinah's thread with my stuff though.
Posted by Dinah on May 1, 2014, at 21:50:32
In reply to Re: Well, see. There it is. » Dinah, posted by Tabitha on May 1, 2014, at 17:36:47
No, no. Not at all.
I might hope it's not true of therapists (or my therapist), but I can't hope fearing it is.
I suspect he was much relieved when I only whimperingly thanked him for calling me instead of berating him.
This is the end of the thread.
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