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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 12 of 12. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by AMF on February 18, 2009, at 21:25:11
A few years ago a child ran in front of my car and was killed. I told my T about this and how I felt about taking a life. T asked me what I lost. I know I have never been the same but I am looking for any information about taking another's life (other than in war). I can't seem to come up with my loss in the whole thing and nobody talks about killing someong.
Posted by obsidian on February 18, 2009, at 22:27:54
In reply to Need help answering T's question...need info., posted by AMF on February 18, 2009, at 21:25:11
maybe you lost the sense of yourself as someone who wouldn't cause another harm, and the sense that it wasn't possible
it was not your intention of course, but there is the terrifying reality that it was out of your control
If it were me I would think I lost that moment, that very important moment.
The thing is though, that you really didn't take a life, but you were in a terrible accident.I might try writing and try to finish the sentence over and over
I lost....
I lost...
I lost...I wish you peace.
Posted by sassyfrancesca on February 19, 2009, at 7:19:28
In reply to Need help answering T's question...need info., posted by AMF on February 18, 2009, at 21:25:11
Gosh, I am so sorry. This would be a life-altering experience. I don't know of any resources to help you, but your t should be able to walk through this with you. The guilt must be horrific.
Something you will never forget or get over, but hopefully, find a way to live with it and not want to die.
As I said, your t should be able to help you.
Hugs, Sassy
Sorry I can't be of more help.
Posted by backseatdriver on February 19, 2009, at 10:18:23
In reply to Re: Need help answering T's question...need info. » AMF, posted by sassyfrancesca on February 19, 2009, at 7:19:28
Just wanted to second the points made above, and wish you peace. BSD.
Posted by petunia on February 19, 2009, at 19:18:56
In reply to Need help answering T's question...need info., posted by AMF on February 18, 2009, at 21:25:11
I am really sorry you are having to go through this.
I don't know what you lost in actuality, but if it were me, I think that the world would no longer be a safe place, I would no longer be convinced I was a good person, life would no longer make sense, all sense of "universal" (or cosmic, or whatever) fairness would be gone.
And I would certainly have lost my innocence and clean conscience: whether I meant to kill anyone or not, someone is still dead.
So actually, you lost a great deal: the part of your identity that used to know you could never harm another human being, your sense of security and safety, your inner peace, your inner sense that things generally turn out for the best. Maybe even your willingness to fully live yourself, to participate in life, because you were so powerfully involved in a death.
And all that's *before* you have a crisis of faith. As in, how could God allow that to happen to all of you? Not just the child, but the child's family, you, your family... People can and do lose their faith over this sort of event, and end up losing God too.
I know the accident is not what you chose -- god forbid! -- but as far as conscience is involved, it doesn't concern itself with the faults of others (the child running in front of you) but with our own faults (the child being dead because of an act I committed, whether in knowledge or in ignorance). In this, conscience can be implacable. That doesn't mean your conscience is actually right, just implacable. :)
The way I see it, you actually lost a great deal. And in a way, your loss is the heaviest to bear, because it cannot be seen. Usually when someone dies, we mourn their loss. But the child (from what I understand you to say) wasn't your own, and technically the loss would be the child's family's loss. But that doesn't mean you weren't very deeply wounded.
You may even think that, because that family's loss is so great, that your own loss is nothing in comparison. I would hesitate at drawing that conclusion.
You could also add for this therapist that, insofar as a life was ended that never really had a chance to live... we all lost. No man is an island, and all that.
I truly hope you regain your peace, and that this event finds resolution in your soul.
Posted by AMF on February 19, 2009, at 19:53:30
In reply to Re: Need help answering T's question...need info., posted by petunia on February 19, 2009, at 19:18:56
All of this is very helpful...I can ponder what all of you have said and see what fits. My T hasn't been able to find anything written that addresses this.
Posted by petunia on February 19, 2009, at 21:40:13
In reply to Re: Need help answering T's question...need info., posted by AMF on February 19, 2009, at 19:53:30
Have your therapist look through PTSD resources... this kind of loss is a big factor in PTSD. People who have had car accidents like yourself, pilots flying planes that went down, people who were involved in 9/11 or Oklahoma City, that sort of thing. PTSD is, in part, a world of "what-ifs" that never end, and it's a really big deal in single-trauma PTSD. It's there in complex PTSD too, but (at least for me) in a much more diffuse way.
These unspoken losses that no one really sees or thinks about are one of the reasons traumas -- especially single traumas -- don't get resolved in that early time window. One important issue in PTSD is how people respond to us in the aftermath of a traumatic experience -- if there's no compassion, if there's blame, if there's anger, it tends to really put a cork in the healing process. Self-blame is just as potent a factor as the blame of others, I think.
If I get a chance, I'll try to find something for you on the net. I wish you well. :)
Posted by AMF on February 20, 2009, at 8:27:14
In reply to Re: Need help answering T's question...need info., posted by petunia on February 19, 2009, at 21:40:13
Both myself and my T have searched for this info...neither of us have found anything. Please let me know if you find something. Thanks!
Posted by lucie lu on February 20, 2009, at 11:36:04
In reply to Need help answering T's question...need info., posted by AMF on February 18, 2009, at 21:25:11
> A few years ago a child ran in front of my car and was killed. I told my T about this and how I felt about taking a life. T asked me what I lost. I know I have never been the same but I am looking for any information about taking another's life (other than in war). I can't seem to come up with my loss in the whole thing and nobody talks about killing someong.
That is awful, and I'm so sorry. If it were me, I would certainly have profound feelings of loss. One would be, as another poster put it, the abrupt loss of the feelings of safety and order in the world. IMO that is enough for even the stoutest of us to have trouble with. To be able to live our lives, we all have to deal with, or studiously ignore, the fact that life can end suddenly and unexpectedly. To be confronted by that in the way that you have is indeed a major loss. You have no choice but to deal with it, because you have experienced it first-hand, where most people haven't. In many, such an experience may precipitate a crisis in faith, which also may be a loss if that is an important part of your life. For nearly everyone who goes through an experience of this magnitude, there will be a compelling need to answer the question "why?," which of course is difficult to answer or unanswerable.
I would guess that PTSD might be the closest to what you're experiencing. This is the sort of PTSD element that you hear over and over again from survivors who have lived through battle, disasters, genocides etc. Everyone's experience is somewhat different, but many of the responses are the same nonetheless.
My heart goes out to you.
Lucie
Posted by AMF on February 20, 2009, at 20:44:02
In reply to Re: Need help answering T's question...need info. » AMF, posted by lucie lu on February 20, 2009, at 11:36:04
Posted by petunia on February 21, 2009, at 16:06:23
In reply to Re: Need help answering T's question...need info. » petunia, posted by AMF on February 20, 2009, at 8:27:14
Hi, AMF!
I did not find anything cohesive on the net. I found a gazillion references to the various sorts of losses I described, but not all together, and not what I think you may be looking for.
It's one of those things where you're saying in your head, "I *know* I saw that somewhere..." :)
However, I can tell you that the book _Trauma and Recovery_ by Judith Herman (which your therapist has no doubt read and maybe even owns) discusses these unseen losses in depth. I have a couple of books by Laurel Parnell on the subject of EMDR, and she goes into this at depth, because they are targeted in EMDR as "negative cognitions": what do I believe now because of the traumatic event?
Other posters had some really good points too. The only thing I would add is that it doesn't matter whether you had your sense of self shattered in warfare or in a cruel twist of fate, it is no less shattered. "Sense of self" in this case being who you thought you were, what you thought the world was, what you thought you could and could never do, the boundary between the evils you know of in the world as opposed to those that you personally never expected to encounter, etc.
So in your search, please don't discount any reference to warfare or crime or events you have not experienced personally, but ask yourself: does the feeling fit? Do the losses that a soldier feels at having been forced to kill seem parallel to your own? Do the losses of a 9/11 survivor feel familiar to you? Because frankly, your own losses are just as real and legitimate, and probably very similar.
I amy be preaching to the choir, and if so I apologize! But as a PTSD survivor myself, I know how INCREDIBLY easy it is to completely discount the validity and legitimacy of just this sort of unseen and unquantifiable loss, all the while having my every move, thought and decision directed by it. In fact, for a long time I thought it meant I had "moved forward" and looked at it as a good thing, until I collapsed. It's not just easy for others to discount ansd ignore, it easy for *us*. Well, me at least. :)
I'll keep an eye out. Best wishes!
Posted by AMF on February 21, 2009, at 22:29:35
In reply to Re: Need help answering T's question...need info., posted by petunia on February 21, 2009, at 16:06:23
You have made excellent points for me to ponder...thank you. I will ask my T about the books you referenced and check them out myself. I can't say I have a sense of being being shattered but I do understand what you mean about "moving forward" only to be caught in the past. Thanks again for your info and help!
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