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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 25. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by luckygal on December 13, 2008, at 11:57:28
I had a bothersome encounter with a therapist today and wanted some feedback. To give some background, I've had therapy in the past but feel like I need a tune up and can't go back to the therapist I used before (she moved). So I made an appointment with a new therapist, the first appointment was last week and she was 20 minutes late, supposedly because she had a couple emergency calls and got behind. I was a bit wary, but gave her the benefit of the doubt. My next appointment was today and she was once again late. I waited for 15 minutes, but she still didn't come out so I left since I didn't want to work with someone who couldn't be on time regularly. I called when I got home, explained why I had left and that having her as my therapist wasn't going to work for me. She called back and basically put the blame on me by telling me that I was expected to wait for 30 minutes otherwise it was considered a no show. She never apologized, when I tried to explain why being that late that often wasn't OK with me, she told me that it sounded like being prompt was really important to me and that she'd be happy to work with me on that issue.
Am I being unreasonable by wanting someone who is generally on time? I've never had this problem with therapists before, but maybe I've just been lucky? It also bugs me that she wouldn't take any ownership for being late and instead made it out to be my problem for being bothered by it.
Posted by Deneb on December 13, 2008, at 11:57:28
In reply to Bothersome incident with therapist, posted by luckygal on December 12, 2008, at 22:33:33
I don't know if most T's are on time, but my T who is also my pdoc is always late. She is late probably 95% of the time. Average wait is 20 mins. The longest I've waited is 50 mins.
Maybe you've been lucky? I don't know.
I don't have to pay to see her though because she's a psychiatrist and our health care system covers pdocs.
My appointment times are erratic too, sometimes they are 15 mins other times they are 45 mins.
She is a good pdoc though and I can't complain. She sees me every week.
Posted by fayeroe on December 13, 2008, at 11:57:28
In reply to Bothersome incident with therapist, posted by luckygal on December 12, 2008, at 22:33:33
Hey, I'm not even late for the garbage men..my trash is out there early.
If we can be expected to show up for an appointment (which we are paying for, I'd like to point out) then the therapist damned sure better be there and if not..grovel and reschedule asap. That is just plain rude and wrong.
xoxox pat
Posted by TexasChic on December 13, 2008, at 11:57:29
In reply to Re: Bothersome incident with therapist » luckygal, posted by fayeroe on December 12, 2008, at 23:47:33
Well, I'm kind of torn of this subject. On the one hand, doctors in general are always late in my experience. So that's not too unusual. And having worked at a job that used appointments, as a photographer, I know its virtually impossible to stay on track. Its hard to tell someone who's your customer that they are taking too freaking long. On the other hand, I've had plenty of doctors who have no problem saying they have to reschedule because I'm 15 minutes late, AND charging a no show fee for it. So you would think it should go both ways. So like I said, I'm torn on the subject.
-T
Posted by caraher on December 13, 2008, at 11:57:29
In reply to Re: Bothersome incident with therapist, posted by TexasChic on December 13, 2008, at 0:28:40
I've had a range of experiences, and it seems to depend most on what kind of practice it it. Private practices tend to run by the clock; overburdened folks run behind.
What you do know is how chronic lateness by that amount of time does (or in this case, does not) work for you. I think you have every right to seek a more punctual therapist. And I don't think the therapist had any right to scold you about "no-shows," especially if you hadn't been given a set of rules about that. Expecting you to wait at least 30 minutes seems like the extreme edge of reasonable, and even then only if you've been told to expect a significant number of late starts.
Posted by Poet on December 13, 2008, at 11:57:29
In reply to Bothersome incident with therapist, posted by luckygal on December 12, 2008, at 22:33:33
Hi Luckygal,
I would not want to work with a therpist that could not be on time either. An emergency is understandable, a policy of making patients wait 30 minutes and if they don't charging for it is not. To me she's sending a message that her time is more valuable than yours and that just isn't right.
I think you did the right thing by leaving and then calling her. As to her suggesting she work with you on needing to be prompt, I think she needs to work with someone on being on time.
Sorry this happened.
Poet
Posted by seldomseen on December 13, 2008, at 12:13:00
In reply to Bothersome incident with therapist, posted by luckygal on December 13, 2008, at 11:57:28
I do not think you are being the slightest bit unreasonable. You have certain expectations for your therapist and she can't meet them. You were right to leave and right to want what you want.
The fact that she even has "rule" for what constitutes a no-show is disturbing to me.
My therapist is never late, without multiple apologies.
He says it is a sign of respect for his patients. He is in private practice.
Good luck on finding another therapist.
Seldom
Posted by LibraryGirl on December 13, 2008, at 12:28:11
In reply to Bothersome incident with therapist, posted by luckygal on December 13, 2008, at 11:57:28
I can relate. I've been seeing my new T for about a month now, and every session from the first it's been some thing or other.
My first scheduled appt. was with her in October. I show up, she comes out into the waiting area and says,"Oh I tried to reach you but your phone wasn't working. I had to give your appt to someone else." I was dumbfounded. She was very apologetic at the time, but still felt like she was blaming me b/c my phone wasn't working (which, is untrue; I had gotten calls on my home phone all week; I suspect she misdialed). I refused to call her back for a reschedule. To her credit, she did call me, apologized, said she really wanted to meet with me, so I rescheduled. Since then, most appts have soem sort of minor problem. She's either running late (although she hasn't (so far) shortened my session time due to this) or she has people traipsing in and out of the office, plus she takes her dog into work with her, so sometimes while we talk she's feeding the dog, etc. I've put up with it up until now for various reasons, and everyone is different. If you feel you can't work with a T who may be unreliable, you did a good thing in telling her this. If she can't accept her responsibility, then maybe she wasn't the right fit for you; best to find that out now.
Good luck
LG
Posted by Phillipa on December 13, 2008, at 12:29:05
In reply to Re: Bothersome incident with therapist, posted by seldomseen on December 13, 2008, at 12:13:00
The one here I saw and others in past were always punctual and I also would not wait thirty minutes as your time is valuable also. Personally I wouldn't pay for the session that's me. And I'd find another therapist but as I said that is me. Love Phillipa
Posted by raisinb on December 13, 2008, at 12:45:54
In reply to Bothersome incident with therapist, posted by luckygal on December 13, 2008, at 11:57:28
I know people have different levels of tolerance, but that is ludicrous. First of all, according to what I have read, most therapists agree that appointments should start and end on time. That is part of the safe therapeutic "frame," and while it might seem like a minor issue, solid boundaries are critical for the unconscious to feel safe to come out of its shell (if that's not too many mixed metaphors).
Second of all, implying that HER lateness is YOUR issue to be worked on is...well...boy...I am not sure I can think of a word bad enough for therapists who have issues of their own and attempt to push them off on the client.
My therapist, like seldom's, is never late and when she is a few minutes late, she apologizes and we talk about it. For clients who might have abandonment issues or low self-esteem (like most of us!) it is a big deal. While many doctors *do* run late habitually, a therapist is *not* another doctor, which is why small things like lateness, office space changes, or missed appointments take on big, symbolic importance.
I hope you can find somebody else. The silver lining (maybe) here is that you saw the red flags very early, before you got attached.
Posted by LadyBug on December 13, 2008, at 12:50:57
In reply to Bothersome incident with therapist, posted by luckygal on December 13, 2008, at 11:57:28
Ya, I think you did the right thing. A T should never make a client wait that long. Yes, emergencies come up but to make you wait both times is a good sign that's how it's going to be every time. Waiting causes a lot of anxiety to me. I sit and think; does she know I'm here? is this the right day and time? does she not want to see me? is she even here? I know my T spent a few extra min. with me at times when I was in great distress crying so I'm sure the next patient had to wait a few min. I had to wait a few extra min. from time to time and I was understanding that the patient before me must be having a hard time otherwise my T was pretty much on time.
Sense of time is important to me. Her reply to you about working on it was totally lame.
Posted by llurpsienoodle on December 13, 2008, at 13:37:11
In reply to Re: Bothersome incident with therapist » luckygal, posted by LadyBug on December 13, 2008, at 12:50:57
My T has never been more than 5 minutes late. If he's even a minute or two past the hour, I start to panic that I got the appt. time wrong. It's a terrible feeling.
I don't tolerate lateness in my therapists. I have never been kept waiting more than 8 minutes at the pdoc either.
Couples therapist, however, is often 10 minutes late, but at least I have my h to take the edge off.
-Ll
Posted by Nadezda on December 13, 2008, at 16:04:31
In reply to Bothersome incident with therapist, posted by luckygal on December 13, 2008, at 11:57:28
I'd say anything more than 5 minutes late, assuming she's in the office and finishing up with a prior patient, so you know that she's present, is unacceptable.
If she's not in the office and you had to wait outside or in a hallway, or some such thing, even five minutes is a problem.
The idea that she'll work with you on your issue with punctuality is strange, to say the least. I've never heard that being on time was a problem.
I'd say the therapist has some rather odd ideas. If she expects you to pay for the 'missed appointment", I hope you have no qualms about refusing.
Nadezda
Posted by TherapyGirl on December 13, 2008, at 16:15:21
In reply to Bothersome incident with therapist, posted by luckygal on December 13, 2008, at 11:57:28
I don't think you're being unreasonable at all. If my T did that, I'd give her the boot. What did she mean by "work with you on that issue." This is HER issue, I believe.
Posted by Maria01 on December 13, 2008, at 16:39:12
In reply to Bothersome incident with therapist, posted by luckygal on December 13, 2008, at 11:57:28
*shrug*
It all depends on how you feel about punctuality in general. If it's important to you to have someone who is more punctual, then you may need to find someone who respects that. I think you're the only one who'll know if it's unreasonable or not.Personally, I think chronic lateness isn't something I'd put up with; it shows a lack of respect for MY time. But that's just me.
Posted by Annierose on December 13, 2008, at 17:32:54
In reply to Bothersome incident with therapist, posted by luckygal on December 13, 2008, at 11:57:28
I would have done the same ... that would have bugged the sh*t out of me.
My t is never late and the one time she was three minutes late I was so upset (well ... I was away for three weeks and really excited to see her).
Posted by Racer on December 13, 2008, at 18:39:27
In reply to Bothersome incident with therapist, posted by luckygal on December 13, 2008, at 11:57:28
This actually made me laugh, and I hope you come to be able to join me in that!
That therapist seems to me to be abdicating responsibility for her own behavior, blaming others for her shortcomings, apparently feels entitled to special treatment, has higher standards for others than for herself, and she wants to work with you for expecting simple, basic respect?
I'm laughing because that's absolutely incredible to me. I wish I could match that level of self-infatuation!
See, if you walked into my therapist's office and told her that you always ran late, but expected full time anyway, she'd work with you on setting reasonable expectations -- and she'd still send you packing at ten minutes to the hour.
Yes, there are times when it is necessary for a session to run over -- although the only legitimate cause I can think of that would lead to running 20 minutes late is if the client is actively suicidal and you're waiting for an ambulance or the police. Generally, though, part of maintaining appropriate boundaries within the therapeutic relationship is starting and ending sessions at the scheduled time. Period.
Sure, I'm a bit rigid and inflexible -- but in this case, I'm also right. (And I would so like to meet your therapist! She'd make a great case study for school!)
I'm sorry this happened to you. Good luck with a better therapist.
Posted by Wittgensteinz on December 14, 2008, at 6:13:15
In reply to Bothersome incident with therapist, posted by luckygal on December 13, 2008, at 11:57:28
This would bother me too - in fact reading your post makes me feel quite annoyed. Us patients have lives too and our own schedules to keep to. If we have an appointment on a given time, then that's when it should be, in my opinion. I've never ever had to wait for my T. I arrive and the session starts. He manages this by having 15 minutes between patients and as a rule not going over session-time by more than 5 minutes. Likewise, during sessions, the phone is put straight through to the answer machine, so he is focused entirely on the person sitting there with him.
I think you are best not going back to this woman - and I'm sorry she has made you question yourself. I think your need for punctuality is perfectly reasonable - it sounds like she is the one with the problem, and she also sounds a trifle controlling and disrespectful.
One thing, does she have a secretary - and if so, did the secretary explain that she was running late? Maybe in this case it would be reasonable to wait, as you would have known that something had come up.
I also see a pdoc and again he runs on-time, give or take 5 or 10 minutes. He sees patients back-to-back, so some delays are more understandable.
I hope you find the right T for you.
Witti
Posted by rskontos on December 14, 2008, at 9:46:34
In reply to Re: Bothersome incident with therapist » luckygal, posted by Wittgensteinz on December 14, 2008, at 6:13:15
I think you should have asked her when was she going into therapy because as you see it, running "on time" is an assest in ALL circumstances so SHE seems to be the one with work to do. Unless she hoped you'd help her be more on time. LOL. I don't think that is what she meant.
I agree with everyone, and like Racer I laughed at her big ego.
It burns me when people assume their time is more important than yours.
My therapist is usually 5 minutes late but that is ok. He too runs appointments back to back. But he always apologizes for it! Never the other way around.
In fact, most times something happens he accepts responsibility quick readily.
You did the right then, run don't walk to find another more timely therapist.
rsk
Posted by Dinah on December 14, 2008, at 10:15:53
In reply to Bothersome incident with therapist, posted by luckygal on December 13, 2008, at 11:57:28
It's my observation that my therapist seems to think that fifty minute sessions run from ten after until the hour. If he's later than that he apologizes. I don't much start to get annoyed until twenty after. By twentyfive after, I've planned my breezy exit. (That almost never has happened.)
There are a few things about it that annoy me. I've been late a handful of times in my therapy. The first time, he moved as if to close the session at ten to, and I blessed him out thoroughly because it was very unlikely he'd have come out until ten after anyway. And occasionally, although I'm certain he doesn't do it consciously, he catches up time on me. I generally make note of the time as I sit down, and remind him if he tries to short me. Unless I'd prefer to leave.
He has many fine and useful qualities, and the time thing is annoying, but I can live with it. Especially since I've grown able to bring it up in a reasonably nonconfrontational way, rather than letting it fester.
I'd be more concerned with her defensiveness and inability to own her part of an interaction. That is a quality I'm unwilling to accept in a therapist.
But that's me. Not everyone is willing to accept chronically late. Everyone has different things they are/aren't willing to tolerate in a therapist. Which seems totally fair, really.
Posted by Racer on December 14, 2008, at 13:52:41
In reply to Re: Bothersome incident with therapist » luckygal, posted by Dinah on December 14, 2008, at 10:15:53
I fired a doctor recently. He was late consistently, never apologized, and when I finally confronted him, he seemed shocked that I had a problem with it. Yes, he's a specialist. Yes, he thinks quite well of himself. No, I wasn't satisfied with his performance in other ways, either. All those were factors in deciding to fire him.
But being roughly an hour late to all of the three appointments I'd had with him was really the tipping point.
(Keeping in mind my authority thing -- it takes a while for me to recognize that I don't have to put up with that sort of disrespectful treatment, even from a perceived authority figure.)
Thus I have to disclose a bias. And I also have to disclose that firing doctors -- and therapists, for that matter, since I've done that, too -- turns out to be quite a pleasant hobby. ;-)
Posted by sassyfrancesca on December 15, 2008, at 10:26:43
In reply to One more note to add..., posted by Racer on December 14, 2008, at 13:52:41
(((Racer))): You crack me up! Absolutely! No one should have to put up with shoddy unprofessional behavior.
We are paying THEM for a service; if we don't get it, why should we pay them or see them??!!
you go gurl!
Sassy
Posted by luckygal on December 15, 2008, at 18:26:54
In reply to Bothersome incident with therapist, posted by luckygal on December 13, 2008, at 11:57:28
Thank you all for your feedback, my response to the therapist felt good and empowering at the time but I started to doubt myself after I talked to her later in the evening. Your feedback helped reassure me that I didn't do anything wrong and that she is the one not showing respect and appropriate boundaries. Thanks again.
Posted by B2chica on December 18, 2008, at 8:58:45
In reply to Re: Bothersome incident with therapist-thank you!, posted by luckygal on December 15, 2008, at 18:26:54
sorry for the late reply but i HAD to put in my 2c.
i (like fayore) have strong feeling about your post. Ya most doctors (MD) offices you have to wait but that is a different kind of scheduling process than T's, if your sick unexpectedly they try to squeeze you in.
with T's they sessions are a predecided time and have set scheduling throughout the day. and quite frankly T's should be on time. like raisin said its part of the safe frame of thearpy.
now my t can vary from being 5-15 min late at times and i'm fine with that, cuz you know if one session goes long than the whole day is off. BUT she normally apologizes and thanks me for waiting (not that she needs to, but i think its good curteosy).
ALSO, she sounds like a T that PACKS her clients in so tightly and doesn't allow for delay time. she should know her patients and shedule accordingly.
My T now schedules the person after me later because she knows that i often need to go over (if i dissociate and need regrounding).i think you should DEFINATELY find another therapist...#1 because it is unprofessional to expect clients to wait an average of 1/2 for you. BUT more so because of her attitude...i mean SERIOUSLY..."lets work on your issues with promptness"????!!!@#$#*@#&(*@)$!!!!
Sorry but WOW bad first impression...RUN don't walk to the next therapist!
Best of Luck
b2c.
Posted by rskontos on December 18, 2008, at 9:04:51
In reply to One more note to add..., posted by Racer on December 14, 2008, at 13:52:41
My sister had something similar to happen to her with an ob-gyn. She waited for one hour-half. That 1.5 hours, with her clothes off and one of those gown thingys in the exam room. No nurse came to tell her that he was delivering a baby, he lost his way, he had an accident, anything that could explain this. They just let her wait.
She stewed and at first thought about just walking out but decided to wait to confront the rude doc.When he finally arrived. He asked her what she there for? What could he help her with. This was a first visit.
And she replied. "I don't know" I forgot since I have been waiting for an hour and a half I forgot what I came here for? And I will not be needing your services if this is how you treat patients. He asked if anyone informed her why he was late.
She said, "no and now I don't care. Please leave so that I can get dress and leave. Doc. my time is as valuable as yours at least to me it is."
She left and never returned.
The doc and the office staff tried to apologized but she left anyway.
I had the same thing happen at another office. Not that long. About 30 minutes. I left. Because of their sign that said if you are 10 minutes we will re-schedule. I went out and said if I am late you would reschedule does the same rules not apply to the doc as well. And they looked surprised and said that it would probably be another 30 minutes before the doc arrived from her emergency and I asked to be rescheduled. That has never happened again and I have now be going 5 years.
So I believe in standing your ground too.
rsk
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