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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by Kath on October 22, 2008, at 19:58:29
In reply to Re: Pain is part of life, but suffering is a choice???, posted by JouezMoi on October 22, 2008, at 19:51:05
Oh - okay - so do you think it's sort of like the difference between just 'being' in pain & suffering & not doing anything versus being in pain & suffering & doing various things to try & get through it or alleviate it?
Kath
PS - I guess the problem in that would be when one is SO depressed that one is immobilized.
Posted by healing928 on October 22, 2008, at 20:01:17
In reply to Pain is part of life, but suffering is a choice???, posted by Kath on October 22, 2008, at 19:40:16
Kath,
What I have learned from my t is amazing. He has taught me things I should have learned from my parents. Acceptence isn't about "getting over feelings" or "being strong." It is accepting the feelings and knowing they will pass. When we think, this shouldn't be happening, it only makes our feelings intensify.
When we resist I think we get to a desperate state. When we think we shouldn't be in this predicament, that it's not fair or wonder, "How could I have been so stupid," we create pain for ourselves. And in doing so, we perpetuate the stuck feelings and that is what creates suffering and doesn't offer any solutions.
Acceptance doesn't happen overnight, and we are all human. Be kind to yourself.
Healing
Posted by Dinah on October 22, 2008, at 20:02:58
In reply to Pain is part of life, but suffering is a choice???, posted by Kath on October 22, 2008, at 19:40:16
http://www.peacefulself.com/2008/02/is-suffering-choice.html
http://uk.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20081012113911AAEzcIi
http://webspace.ship.edu/cgboer/buddhapsych.html
My understanding is that it's a Buddhist concept. And like many religious concepts is a bit difficult to understand in simple terms.
I think the idea behind it is that it is attachment that brings suffering. Attachment, longing for what isn't, nonacceptance. So that through acceptance of what is, a person can achieve lack of suffering.
So, for example, if my mother was a very bad mother I would feel pain from her bad mothering. But suffering would come from not accepting that she was a bad mother, continuing to look to her for good mothering, or trying to change her into a good mother, or maybe even holding myself responsible for her being a bad mother. The end of suffering would come from realizing she is a bad mother, she has always been a bad mother, nothing I can do can change her into a good mother, and I will go through my life with the painful experience of having had a bad mother.
So the key would be to have the distance and detachment enough to see these things and accept them and let them be. Then theoretically a person could move past their anger and sadness and look for love and acceptance from someone more able to supply it.
I think it's probably true enough, as far as it goes. But saying suffering is a choice seems to me to be a bit harsh in its tone. Perhaps it's a difficulty in translation.
Posted by Kath on October 22, 2008, at 20:04:48
In reply to Re: Pain is part of life, but suffering is a choice??? » Kath, posted by healing928 on October 22, 2008, at 20:01:17
Wow H,
Those mere words by themselves really sum up what it's often like for me.
I love that you posted that! Thanks. I'm going to print it off & keep it in my purse. I have about 3 posts from PB where I've done that & it really helps me to read them if I'm feeling down.
Thanks so much.
:-)) Kath
Posted by Kath on October 22, 2008, at 20:27:35
In reply to Re: Pain is part of life, but suffering is a choice???, posted by Dinah on October 22, 2008, at 20:02:58
Thx Dinah,
I particularly like your description of the mother.
I am in a place in my life where I'm trying to come to terms with the reality that my son is schizophrenic. Up 'til very recently I've spent the last almost 2 years clinging to his being 'different from how he was' as a substance-abuse-induced psychosis (event - even though long-term) ...as opposed to possibly a substance-abuse-induced schizophrenia (state - possibly permanent).
Recently, the sadness & grief have finally begun to bubble up & out. Also the facing the facts. He might get to a place where he's doing better (I mean he already has, but I mean even better than that) or he might not.
I think I've been expending a huge amount of energy in trying to get him to do things that might well help him...and also in wishing & hoping that this will change.
So your example is a good one.
I think the hoping for change is the thing that is keeping me in the suffering.
So I think simple acceptance of what IS might be a good goal for me.I really appreciate the input so far on this topic. Thanks all.
Kath
PS - when I just re-read this, I sound very analytical etc. It's actually very intense emotionally but I think I'm 'handling' it by being scientific. I think I can only handle a very little of the pain at a time.
Posted by Dinah on October 22, 2008, at 20:36:14
In reply to Re: Pain is part of life, but suffering is a choice???, posted by Dinah on October 22, 2008, at 20:02:58
((((Kath))))
I've seen that suffering in my own family. Some of my mom's siblings and their children have had problems with psychosis. I think hope and anger at the unfairness is a natural step to go through, even if the end goal is acceptance.
I said it's true as far as it goes, because the hard part is gaining the detachment and distance enough to allow for seeing something clearly and accepting it. I don't think it's as easy as saying it and achieving it. We're usually so close that it takes a psychic crow bar to gently prise us apart.
Posted by Kath on October 22, 2008, at 20:40:10
In reply to Re: Pain is part of life, but suffering is a choice???, posted by Dinah on October 22, 2008, at 20:36:14
Thx Dinah, An additional part comes in - anger at my son doing so many drugs that he damaged himself! And partly that part of his drug use has been to deal with emotional pain. Just another couple of ingredients to add into the mix.
Did anyone ever mention to you that you have a lot of wisdom?
luv, Kath
> ((((Kath))))
>
> I've seen that suffering in my own family. Some of my mom's siblings and their children have had problems with psychosis. I think hope and anger at the unfairness is a natural step to go through, even if the end goal is acceptance.
>
> I said it's true as far as it goes, because the hard part is gaining the detachment and distance enough to allow for seeing something clearly and accepting it. I don't think it's as easy as saying it and achieving it. We're usually so close that it takes a psychic crow bar to gently prise us apart.
Posted by healing928 on October 22, 2008, at 20:45:38
In reply to Re: Pain is part of life, but suffering is a choice???, posted by Dinah on October 22, 2008, at 20:02:58
Buddhism is not a religion per se. It is more of a philosophy. Buddhism is a spiritual path towards reducing anger and bringing a sense of compassion to ourself and others.
Siddhartha Gautama who became the Buddha was an ordinary man and advised his students that he was their teacher and should not be worshiped.
The Four Noble Truths
1. Life means suffering.
In life, we have illness, poverty, disease age and death. If this is all we know we suffer.
2. The origin of suffering is attachment.
3. The cessation of suffering is attainable.4. The path to the cessation of suffering.
Posted by healing928 on October 22, 2008, at 20:56:34
In reply to Re: Pain is part of life, but suffering is a choice???, posted by Dinah on October 22, 2008, at 20:02:58
My mother has narcissistic personality disorder, and did some very abusive things. I could let her bahvior eat at me for the rest of my life, or I can make a choice to treat her with compassion. Look at what she went through as a child and what her life has been like. From my experience, compassion helps foster forgiveness which alleviates my deep angry heart.
"So, for example, if my mother was a very bad mother I would feel pain from her bad mothering. But suffering would come from not accepting that she was a bad mother, continuing to look to her for good mothering, or trying to change her into a good mother, or maybe even holding myself responsible for her being a bad mother. The end of suffering would come from realizing she is a bad mother, she has always been a bad mother, nothing I can do can change her into a good mother, and I will go through my life with the painful experience of having had a bad mother."
Posted by Dinah on October 22, 2008, at 21:01:52
In reply to Re: Pain is part of life, but suffering is a choice??? » Dinah, posted by healing928 on October 22, 2008, at 20:45:38
Yes, I know. It was a bit lazy of me to refer to it that way.
We studied it in college, way back when. We studied it in our world religion class, although they made it clear that it was not based on deism, but did involve many of the things that we traditionally think of as religion. Such as eschatology. But a person can be, for example, daoist and buddhist.
I guess I didn't want to think that hard. :)
Posted by Dinah on October 22, 2008, at 21:05:19
In reply to Re: Pain is part of life, but suffering is a choice???, posted by healing928 on October 22, 2008, at 20:56:34
That sounds like what I'm working on in therapy right now. (Well I was, before I got sidetracked.)
Generosity of spirit.
I've recently come to the opinion that generosity of spirit benefits the person showing it more than the person they're showing it to. And that much pain in life is caused by *not* cultivating generosity of spirit, and by holding onto pain or seeing the many unkindnesses instead of the many kindnesses.
But clearly I'm a work in process.
Posted by Phillipa on October 22, 2008, at 23:45:39
In reply to Pain is part of life, but suffering is a choice???, posted by Kath on October 22, 2008, at 19:40:16
Kath a different view is what nurses have to do. You learn to stuff down the pain of death and suffering it's like swallowing it you feel it go down into your stomach somewhere so you can carry on it's necessary as plaster on a smile and move on to the next patient. This has been ingrained in me that I just swallow it all hence I got sick body broke down only so much a person can take. Including our kids. And you know what I mean about my own. Love Phillipa
Posted by raisinb on October 23, 2008, at 9:21:58
In reply to Pain is part of life, but suffering is a choice???, posted by Kath on October 22, 2008, at 19:40:16
Dinah's interpretation sounded just right to me.
On a personal level, I can understand that statement, because I eventually realized that I caused myself a lot of suffering with some deep-seated mental and emotional habits. The sentence sounds to me like pain comes from hurts we can't do anything about, but suffering is making a destructive belief about why the pain occurred.
The thing is, suffering *is* a choice, if you're living in an ideal world in which we all see clearly, had perfect upbringings, etc. As people,though, we bring to the table what we have been taught. And many of us were taught to believe in a world full of suffering, that we deserved it somehow, or that it was always our fault and would never change. So I think it's hard to make a choice that we can't understand exists--emotionally, anyway, even though intellectually we might get it.
Posted by healing928 on October 23, 2008, at 11:01:22
In reply to Re: Pain is part of life, but suffering is a choic » Kath, posted by raisinb on October 23, 2008, at 9:21:58
Pain creates suffering, and what we with that pain and how we handle it is up to us. I find it very comforting to know that I can take charge of my own life and not allow others to minipulate and control me. T's can only do so much, and guide us to solve our own problems.
Mindfulness takes practice, and i am certainly not perfect at it, but it has helped me cope with the abuse I suffered and how to react to anger and depression. Do I still get depressed? Yes, but I know it will pass! That helps me manage my self destructive behaviors and go on with my day.
I am not trying to say that I am right or convert anyone to this belief system. This is from my personal experience and what I have learned from reading in how it has helped others.
Posted by JouezMoi on October 23, 2008, at 17:34:42
In reply to Re: Pain is part of life, but suffering is a choic » raisinb, posted by healing928 on October 23, 2008, at 11:01:22
I missed out on some good Babble on this subject last night. I was too busy reeling in pain and suffering, yet again, from my mother. You would think by now I would accept. Everytime I think I am there, she takes it a step further. I'm starting to think that either she wants to keep me angry at her, or I find a way to keep being angry at her ... or both.
It messed up my whole day, made me short-tempered and intolerant with people in my new job (what a great first impression) and I am now walking down that slippery slope of depression, anger and despair.
Then to and insult to injury, I called my T and she says she has no sympathy for me ..."I should have learned by now not to expect anything else from my mother .. it's my fault she hurt and upset me".
Will this ever change? What have I become? I don't even know me anymore.
Posted by Sigismund on October 24, 2008, at 2:41:10
In reply to Re: Pain is part of life, but suffering is a choic, posted by JouezMoi on October 23, 2008, at 17:34:42
To allow?
Near the end of this thread I realised I was confused by this suffering thing.
I'd thought that (yes) suffering was a choice, not in the sense of choosing to feel bad but suffering in the sense of allowing (as in 'suffer the little children to come unto me') and therefore not resisting pain and in that way avoiding making it worse.
(In that sense, referring to Link's thread on the main board, I think suffering and beauty are connected.)
(Since so many people mention difficult relations with their mothers, I can say that in my case a simple change of heart caused a 180 degree about turn in our relations before she died. It took a tragedy to make it happen, but it all hinged on a willingness to reach out, which she did and I was able to reciprocate. In the last 2 years of her life we were very close.)
Posted by seldomseen on October 24, 2008, at 13:10:40
In reply to Pain is part of life, but suffering is a choice???, posted by Kath on October 22, 2008, at 19:40:16
I definately agree with most of what has been said thus far. This is definately NOT about simply white knuckling your way through pain.
In my experience, chosing not to suffer is not as easy at it sounds. In fact, it has taken me years to reach the point where that choice is even an option for me.
I think our bodies are hard wired on every level to respond to pain. It gets our attention and sparks action. I've noticed that it really doesn't matter whether it's physical pain, or emotional pain, our bodies react similarly to both.
Pain, and the cause of that pain become all we can think about - and rightly so on the physical side of things. Imagine if you'd been grievously injured in a car wreck - the last thing you would want your body to do would be not care! "Oh yeah, i think I have a badly broken leg and a head injury, but oh well, just don't care!
That's just no going to happen.
But I do think we can tune down our natural reaction to emotional pain.
For me, the key to coping with emotional pain was first developing the ability to hold two completely opposing feelings at the same time and not trying to reconcile or act on either.
For instance, my father is a deeply disturbed violent individual and I love him. I hate him as well. Both emotions exist, both are real and have merit and together make up the way I feel about my father. I will not deny that I hate him, nor act on that hate. It just is. Same with the love. I don't have to do anything about it, feel it more than the other. It's just there. They're both okay.
This takes a LOT of practice. Visualization helps as well. I used to imagine holding all the hate/rage in one hand and all the love/tenderness in the other. I would work on keeping them separate and not associating any reaction to either. Eventually, they will come together in a mix that doesn't require anything from you at all.
Sorry for the rambling post. I think a lot of people would like to get to this point, but man, take it easy on yourself. It can take years.
Seldom.
Posted by lucie lu on October 24, 2008, at 14:38:38
In reply to Pain is part of life, but suffering is a choice???, posted by Kath on October 22, 2008, at 19:40:16
This thread is very interesting to me right now as I'm having a particularly bad flare-up of fibromyalgia. FM pain is not the useful "ouch that stove is hot" but "#%&$#@#!" from the pain receptors in the brain. Or maybe they're not "#%&$#@#!" but just get excited over nothing, like my dog. There are meds and non-med treatments and lifestyle changes that can help but none of these is enough by itself.
I think that in the long run it could help a lot for chronic or remitting conditions like FM to redefine one's relationship to pain. I'm trying to do that, so this thread is very relevant and potentially very helpful (at least to the part of my brain that is not jumping up and down and barking). My thanks to Kath for starting it and to everyone for your thoughtful posts.
Lucie
Posted by Kath on October 24, 2008, at 19:57:51
In reply to Choice or allowing?, posted by Sigismund on October 24, 2008, at 2:41:10
It's really great reading everyone's input.
I'm finding it helpful to try & shift my concept so that "suffering is a choice" does NOT mean, as Seldomseen said, "whiteknuckling it through pain".
I'm really trying to be aware, when in pain, that resisting pain makes it worse.
AN EXERCISE:
I can feel emotional pain - or I guess experience it, in how I'm feeling - like as in a mood. I also sometimes feel emotional pain in my body - mostly when I'm lying in bed in the morning before getting up. When this happens, I'm trying to allow myself to feel it. This is interesting. This morning, for ex, at one point I felt a tight oval shape in the centre of my chest....maybe somewhat larger than a large grapefruit, but oval - 3 dimensional.
So I asked myself:
What does is look like - what colour is it? Gray & black
What does it smell like? Like heavy stale woodsmoke
What does it sound like? Like a dull thumpy sound
What does it taste like? Bitter
What does it feel like? Cold & hardThen as I experienced the last one, it sort of just dissolved. This morning I did this with 2 separate 'shapes' in my chest. Both times they sort of dissipated.
If it feels like it's in my head - like a mood - I'm trying to look at it & take a breath & say - OK - this is just how I'm feeling right now. It lessens the panicky feelng for sure.
Anyone have any interesting ways in which they deal with emotional pain?
Kath
Posted by Phillipa on October 24, 2008, at 20:27:55
In reply to Using the 5 senses to 'dissolve' emotional pain..., posted by Kath on October 24, 2008, at 19:57:51
Mine arent healthy try to run away from it by doing anything. Like babble hence so much posting from me. Phillipa
Posted by Sigismund on October 24, 2008, at 22:36:04
In reply to Re: Using the 5 senses to 'dissolve' emotional pain... » Kath, posted by Phillipa on October 24, 2008, at 20:27:55
A disc in my neck started to press on a nerve (as it turned out) and I got 6 weeks, more or less, of pain much like indigestion. Enough to wake anyone up, but not *too* bad either.
Sometimes, when I was completely sick of it, I would smoke a joint and concentrate on the pain.
It didn't make the pain go away, but it became a different kind of experience.
On another occasion I crushed a finger between 2 big rocks and was quite concerned that someone would touch it and it would fall off or something. I danced around the yard in a kind of pain state that was intense enough to be interesting.
If only emotional pain could feel like like that.
I suppose I can find dissociation something like that.
You know, it's freaky, frightening and weird, but it is interesting, if quite unhelpful. Depression though....I can't say the same of that.
Posted by seldomseen on October 25, 2008, at 2:50:43
In reply to Using the 5 senses to 'dissolve' emotional pain..., posted by Kath on October 24, 2008, at 19:57:51
"OK - this is just how I'm feeling right now."
I think this is a very wise and very good step. You've recognized where you are, what it looks likes and have begun to take a step away from it.
I use visualization too. It requires concentration doesn't it? Especially when you just want to give into it.
Actually, Clearskies, a poster here was the first person that introduced me to the concept of immersive visualization that uses all the senses. I think it is a kind of mindfullness.
The "okay, here is where I am - let's get on with it", I think is very important. It brings the pain into the rational side of your brain where you can deal with it better.
Actually,thanks for posting. This discussion is helping me too.
Seldom.
Posted by Kath on October 26, 2008, at 18:12:28
In reply to Re: Using the 5 senses to 'dissolve' emotional pain..., posted by Sigismund on October 24, 2008, at 22:36:04
:-) I have never been able to get outside the 'panic' caused by certain types of pain. I find sinus pain hard to deal with even if I concentrate on it. A friend who has been fighting various types of cancer for years told me that although he's used meditation etc to deal with all his pain, he finds sinus pain a REAL challegne! Makes me feel like less of a baby!
> If only emotional pain could feel like like that.
> I suppose I can find dissociation something like that.
> You know, it's freaky, frightening and weird, but it is interesting, if quite unhelpful. Depression though....I can't say the same of that.~ ~ ~ ~ I've heard so many speak of 'dissociation'. I'm going to make a separate thread about that.
So, somehow, it helps me to hear you, who have been able to 'deal with' physical pain, say that depression is different.
Hugs, Kath
Posted by Kath on October 26, 2008, at 18:19:31
In reply to Re: Using the 5 senses to 'dissolve' emotional pain... » Kath, posted by seldomseen on October 25, 2008, at 2:50:43
> "OK - this is just how I'm feeling right now."
>
> I think this is a very wise and very good step. You've recognized where you are, what it looks likes and have begun to take a step away from it.~ ~ ~ I do find it gets me further from what might otherwise feel like panic. ~ ~ ~
> I use visualization too. It requires concentration doesn't it? Especially when you just want to give into it.
~ ~ ~ ~Yes - that's true. I actually find it easier to deal with the emotional pain that gives me a strong physical feeling - ex lump in chest; queasy tummy, than I do the general 'mood' yucky feeling. ~ ~ ~
> Actually, Clearskies, a poster here was the first person that introduced me to the concept of immersive visualization that uses all the senses. I think it is a kind of mindfullness.
~ ~ ~ ~ I'm wondering if Clearskies reads this, if she can mention her ideas or what she's found helpful. Or SS do you remember? ~ ~ ~
>
> The "okay, here is where I am - let's get on with it", I think is very important. It brings the pain into the rational side of your brain where you can deal with it better.
>
> Actually,thanks for posting. This discussion is helping me too.~ ~ ~ actually, this reminds me that my therapist said to try to get into that side of my brain when I'm really upset. I'm glad this discussion is helping you too.
hugs, Kath
Posted by Partlycloudy on October 26, 2008, at 18:57:24
In reply to Immersive visualization? Clearskies + » seldomseen, posted by Kath on October 26, 2008, at 18:19:31
Hey there.
I use an exercise at the end of the day, when I tend to have a hard time letting go of the day's concerns. In the past I've had problems with insomnia, but (fingers crossed?) have relatively few issues in the last year or so. In addition to trying to practice good sleep hygiene (keeping to a regular bed time, not eating or drinking too close to my bed time, using a linen spray with essential oils on my pillow and bedsheets, and playing relaxing or soothing music on my CD player), I also use a visualization process that helps me let go of the worries that I collect during the course of the day.
Rather than try to slow my breathing, I just notice what it's doing. Am I breathing hard? Is my pulse bouncing in my temples with the pressure of the blood in my head? It's neither good nor bad; I merely just observe how I'm breathing and what my pulse seems to be like. I don't judge whether I'm feeling anxious or worried, but just listen to those specific physical clues my body is giving me. My breathing. My pulse. No judgment.
Is my body tensed up? Is that sore place in my lower back making itself known? I quietly observe these physical clues that let me know what level of stress my body is feeling. I don't try to calm myself down. Whenever I try to exert that kind of control over myself, I inevitably lose the battle, and feel even more anxious than before. Aware that I am indeed breathing hard - OK, I'm panting, sometimes, unable to catch my breath! And my back is really, really sore. It just is what it is.
Are my toes cold? Do I have that muscle twitch in my arm that I sometimes get? I become exquisitely aware of my body and exactly what it's doing at this very moment. If my mind strays to the debris of the day, or what I imagine faces me tomorrow, then I stop myself from going in that direction, and instead bring my thoughts back to my breath. My body. I start all over again if I have to, to clear those thoughts from my head. What happened this today is not what I am concerned about. What will happen tomorrow is neither my concern.
Then, I start to broaden my awareness to the environment around me. What am I aware of? The sound of cars outside, or insects, or frogs, or night birds. A distant dog's barking. I make no comment about what I hear, but simply make a note of it.
Is there a breeze of air in the room? Is it making my nose or ears cold? Can I hear the sound of an old house's boards settling in for the night? I listen intently.
Then I bring my awareness back to myself and my breath. Inevitably, my breathing will have slowed and relaxed somewhat.
Usually I can go through this exercise for about 15 minutes or so, and feel myself start to slip into sleep. It's become a nightly ritual that I genuinely look forward to, even if I'm staying in an unfamiliar environment (as long as it's not too stimulating).
(I hope these words were something along the lines of what you were looking for.)
PartlyCloudy, formerly ClearSkies.
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