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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 15 of 15. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by lemonaide on October 11, 2008, at 10:15:46
I think I will take a break from here again. Most of you have been really supportive and wonderful to me, and for that I am very thankful. I couldn't have gone through this without all of you.
But I can't handle any fights here anymore, I am weak enough as it is, so I am leaving before it gets worse.
I am crying this morning because of what I have read today. I am not a bad person. Me displaying what my T said to me was part of me dealing with the pain of what happened to me. I was expecting some support and some of you have been wonderful, but coming across posts that tell me I have done something wrong, that I should be more fair to my T, etc, especially when they don't contain any support for me personally, hurts really bad. I am hurt. I now want to run away, sorry.
Posted by Wittgensteinz on October 11, 2008, at 11:22:30
In reply to Now I am really upset, posted by lemonaide on October 11, 2008, at 10:15:46
Of course it's up to you whether you take a break or not - but it's a real pity if you do so because of a couple of repsonses to your earlier thread. I don't think anyone meant you harm or hurt.
I think Daisy's post was one of support. She wasn't denying what happened - she wasn't invalidating you - she was just pointing out that context is important for meaning. I think you demonstrate that exactly by referring to something her therapist said to her about 'being good in bed' (now I seem to recall something about this but it's quite vague) - the point I want to express is that in the context even such a potentially risky comment is safe, valuable and therapeutic.
(I have always taken Daisy's therapist as the model of the good therapist - and Daisy, your posts have been very useful for me - the openness with which you write, the way you share with us such valuable exchanges you have with your therapist is fascinating and so relevant.)
There are things I could repeat my therapist having said that in isolation would seem most inappropriate but in the context of the sentence and in the wider context of the relationship have been deeply healing. Of course everyone gets it wrong sometimes - we do and our therapists do too.
I don't think people are questioning the happenings with your T (T1) - I just think it was a caution against sensationalism - that there are other ways than homing in on particular things your therapists might have said. What is more important is how he made you feel. How did his breaching/violating the boundaries make you feel - how does it reflect other boundary breaches in your life/why did you stay in that situation/how can you stand up to it happening again? etc. etc.
You are not a bad person and I don't believe anyone is telling you you have done something wrong (perhaps it is a sensitive issue when someone makes a strong assertion about another person's therapist - but that doesn't mean you are 'wrong' or 'bad').
Are you able to take a deep breath and read those posts again and see that there was no fight - just intelligent and open discussion? I truly disagree that you have been attacked.
I think when we post here we have to be open to different types of responses. Some might not sit as comfortably with us as others but these responses perhaps hold the highest worth - they challenge us, make us think out of the box - make us think about what really matters.
Take care Lemonaide,
Witti
Posted by Phillipa on October 11, 2008, at 12:25:16
In reply to Now I am really upset, posted by lemonaide on October 11, 2008, at 10:15:46
Gosh haven't read them I will now. Sorry let me read them. Write. Phillipa
Posted by DAisym on October 11, 2008, at 13:27:02
In reply to I don't think it is as you see it » lemonaide, posted by Wittgensteinz on October 11, 2008, at 11:22:30
Witt, Thank you for expressing it so much better than I did.
I was trying to help, not hurt. I think I owned my own reasons for why this is important to me right now.
You don't have to leave. I'm not here that much anymore. You've made it clear the responses you need right now. I'd hate to think you lost the support you need because of me.
Posted by lemonaide on October 11, 2008, at 14:34:49
In reply to I don't think it is as you see it » lemonaide, posted by Wittgensteinz on October 11, 2008, at 11:22:30
If anyone wants to keep in touch I will have my babblemail on, but I can't read unsupportive posts to me when I need support the most right now.
Being supportive is not telling me I am being sensationalizing or talking out of context. OMG, I still can't get my mind that I even have to defend this. I certainly wouldn't tell a friend this who was venting and looking for support. I am not in a court of law where I need my posts picked at with a fine toothed comb. I was needing support.
I am sure my T will be needing lawyers, so I guess you could volunteer since you seem to have his best interest in mind. If you feel you must defend my T and his actions, while going through my post with a fine tooth comb, trying to point out what I am doing wrong, it won't feel very supportive to me right now. What about my feelings? Do they count in any of this?
I was told I was attaching Daisy's T, ATTACKING. I never said anyone was attacking me. Don't you think that word is a tad overstated?
But the comments did hurt my feelings, made me feel judged, and made me want to run away, the comments didn't seem supportive to me. Why do I even keep trying to stay here???? I was almost thinking wow, babble was getting back to the wonderful place it used to be, so supportive. But now I remember why so many feel unsafe here, and why so many have left.
Now I don't feel safe here, even with this most difficult week coming up for me. I was so hoping I could use this place for support, but I can't risk getting judgmental posts made to me, that just tears me down and makes me sorry for ever posting in the first place. Please don't waste your time responding to me here, because I will not be back to read them. Most of the posts have been wonderful, I thank those who are supporting me, and not defending my old T.
So this sensationalizing and posting out of context poster is gone now. I am sorry you couldn't see why I feel your posts were not supportive to me, I am sure others see it.
Posted by twinleaf on October 11, 2008, at 15:14:24
In reply to I give up geeze, posted by lemonaide on October 11, 2008, at 14:34:49
Hi Lemonaide...I've been following this and the thread above about T1. When I read your list of the things he had said, but shouldn't have, I was stunned to learn how often he had crossed reasonable therapeutic boundaries. I knew that he had been flirtatious in the gym, in a mostly non-verbal way, but I didn't know he had said so many clearly inappropriate things.
I think that those of us who are presently lucky enough to have good therapeutic relationships can look at that list and find something on it which is similiar to something which has occurred in our own therapies. I think that is what posters like Daisy were getting at: in the context of a healthy, safe and productive relationship,, individual statements which sound like boundary crossings may not be. They may just be safe explorations, which can be tremendously helpful.
T1 did everything wrong. He used the therapeutic rellationship which you were developing to exploit you for his own needs and purposes. Everything he says is about HIM! Whether or not you eventually decide to report him, I hope you remain clear that you did not do anything wrong. I hope you will also remain as a poster. Posters who have not been betrayed by a therapist the way you have, in a way, the luxury of writing about boundary crossings which turned out to be extremely helpful. You had to face something much more serious and painful than that.
Posted by twinleaf on October 11, 2008, at 16:19:13
In reply to a misunderstanding that didn't need to be....., posted by twinleaf on October 11, 2008, at 15:14:24
now that your relationship with T1 has been over for more than a year, it's easy to forget, or overlook, that you were once involved in an emotional relationship with him which included so many hopes for getting better, a longing to trust the relationship, and all the other feelings that go into a therapeutic relationship=the need to allow yourself to depend on him, and a willingness to disclose difficult feeling-states, like anger and sexual desire. Those of us in safe therapeutic relationships can take risks with all these feelings
. When you were starting out with T1, I'm sure you believed that he was a seasoned professional, with whom you could safely share all these feelings, too. It must have been a gradual, very painful discovery to learn that it wasn't safe.When I was abruptly terminated by my T1 (well, kicked out suddenly), the hardest part of it for me was that I had thought all during the four years I was with him that we were working very well together. Suddenly realizing that my trust and connection had been completely misplaced was probably the biggest shock I have ever experienced. I think you were more aware of what was happening, but it must have been a huge mixture of feelings. Everyone in therapy wants to feel liked and accepted, and often, we want to be desired. When these feelings are contained, they can be the foundation of many wonderful changes, but when they are selfishly acted upon by a therapist to meet his own needs, the result is inevitably very disappointing and disillusioning. Knowing that you were desirable to him just doesn't take the place, at all, of your determination to embark upon therapy in order to become happier and healthier.
Posted by Nadezda on October 11, 2008, at 16:52:12
In reply to Re: I don't think it is as you see it, posted by DAisym on October 11, 2008, at 13:27:02
I feel a bit as if DaisyM's feelings are really getting overlooked in all this.
I think she made it clear that she wasn't trying to hurt lemonaide in her post, but that she felt something important needed to be said. I'd like to emphasize that I don't really know what happened with lemonaide's first T. And I feel somewhat uncomfortable drawing so many negative conclusions about someone who isn't here to give his side of things at all. I'm not saying that he had any right to do whatever he did. I'm only saying, and I think DaisyM was trying to say, that when things fall apart, villainizing one party sometimes isn't the most helpful thing. We need to remember that even if he failed her and was harmful, he is a human being who fell into that because of his own issues and limitations, about which he may need some help, but maybe also beyond that, as a human being, should be given some space. I don't expect lemonaide to do that-- perhaps in the future, she can look back with a different sense. but in the midst of the struggle, that's not something one should need to do. Yet I do feel it also isn't useful for us to stand so much in judgment on someone and something we have so little knowledge of-- as opposed to supporting lemonaide in what she needs to do.
That's not taking his side against lemonaide, or saying that lemonaide isn't telling us what she experienced. It's just saying that it's important to remember that no matter what wrongs he did, he has his own story. And we don't know what that is, or exactly how the therapy took such an unhelpful turn, or even what it all meant.
And I want to say that I value DaisyM's contributions, and I would like to have her be part of this board. I would really regret losing her participation, or making her feel that she did something wrong, in trying to make her view known. I'm sure she was trying to point out something that could be helpful, not tearing lemonaide down. And I myself thought her comments pointed to something important.
I'm sorry if I'm not stating this well. It's hard to put this in the right way. And I apologize if this comes across in the wrong way. What lemonaide needs is closure and some healing for this experience, which I'm not sure this will bring about. And I do think that looking to the future and to a better therapy where this can be resolved is what I would wish for her. I'm especially concerned that DaisyM is not being acknowledged too.
Nadezda
Posted by twinleaf on October 11, 2008, at 17:21:29
In reply to Re: I don't think it is as you see it » DAisym, posted by Nadezda on October 11, 2008, at 16:52:12
I'm very sorry if I came across as favoring one poster over another. I was trying to highlight the situation for Lemonaide, in which sexual counter-transference pressures from her therapist forced her to terminate with him, and highlight also the fact that many very similiar feelings and statements by a therapist can be not only acceptable but meaningful and helpful within the context of a safe, constructive therapy relationship.
When Lemonaide was seeing T1, I remember that she had many trusting, loving feelings for him. It was very hard and disillusioning for her to realize that he was not able to contain them safely.
I hope Lemonaide and Daisy remain as active posters!.I am very eager to hear what happens with Daisy's on-going therapy and new relationship, and equally interested in learning how Lemonaide's new therapy develops.
Posted by Stellabystarlight on October 11, 2008, at 18:02:27
In reply to trying to see both viewepoints..., posted by twinleaf on October 11, 2008, at 17:21:29
Hi Twinleaf,
Welcome back! Missed seeing your posts around here. I have to rush out to a party, but I quickly wanted to let you know that you didn't come across as favoring either posters. What I'm reading and feeling from you is only empathy and insight for all involved. I always feel bad for everyone involved when there seem to be conflicts. I am also interested and Lemonaide and DAisym's posts, so I hope they don't stop posting.
I'm more of a reader as I've found that there are so many insightful writers here who can give better advice...like yourself! Your always have something substantive to say and I enjoy reading your valuable posts. Glad to see you posting again, Twinleaf!
Cheers!
Stellabystarlight
Posted by Nadezda on October 11, 2008, at 18:07:35
In reply to trying to see both viewepoints..., posted by twinleaf on October 11, 2008, at 17:21:29
Hi, Twinleaf. I really didn't mean you or anyone in particular. I'm sorry if it came across that I did.
I was only having a feeling of concern that in reassuring lemonaide, which of course is important, we might all come across as not acknowledging DaisyM's feelings-- but it wasn't what anyone in particular said, more a general concern.
I very much hope no one takes this as in any way thinking what they wrote was taking a side. I didn't think anyone was at all.
Nadezda
Posted by Wittgensteinz on October 11, 2008, at 18:08:03
In reply to I give up geeze, posted by lemonaide on October 11, 2008, at 14:34:49
I'm sorry to say it but I feel a bit defeated/disappointed by your response.
It's such a pity you feel this way given what people have posted. I still don't think any of us have been lacking in support.
Maybe my use of the word 'sensationalism' was misplaced. I wasn't accusing you of anything and it wasn't said to detract from the seriousness of what happened with T1 - that absolutely wasn't my intention and should be clear from my earlier posts in reply to your disclosure thread.
What I do see here is that when someone says something that doesn't sit comfortably with you, you leave the community (which of course is your choice) - it seems a strong reaction - that suddenly this place is perceived as unsafe, rather than just seeing that someone has posted something that to you seems unreasonable and then allowing for adult discussion about why it makes you feel that way and resolving it and moving forward. I think this fits in well with what Annierose had to say about relationships - one thing doesn't make it unethical - nor does it make it all-good/all-bad.
Witti
Posted by seldomseen on October 12, 2008, at 9:05:53
In reply to I give up geeze, posted by lemonaide on October 11, 2008, at 14:34:49
You can leave, that's obviously your choice. Or, you can try to take what you see as good and leave what you see as bad.
As i've said before, I'm a runner myself. I do tend to bolt at the first sign of trouble, perceived or actual. It has cost me a lot.
Also, what I think you're most hoping to find is validation, that what your T did was wrong. In my opinion it definately was.
Not necessarily for the disclosures listed, but IMO because he let the therapy get away from him. There clearly was a lot of sexual tension between you two, and a lot of friendship. I think when he realized that instead of a friend, you needed a therapist, he tried, and completely mishandled, trying to get your therapy back on track.
The "i wouldn't come to your funeral" comment was I think his way of trying to re-establish the boundaries that would allow your therapy. Instead, it was a flat out rejection. It's malpractice above all else IMO and (while I have my analytical therapist hat on) I think it is that rejection that you are still trying to absorb.
What I'm most concerned about though is your sensitivity to thinking you did something wrong.
Maybe you did, maybe you didn't. I don't know and I don't think anyone else will ever know either, including you. What is clear was that he mishandled your therapy. It was a bad, no win situation for all parties.
While I will never be a defense attorney for your T, my guess is he feels kinda crappy about it too, but you shouldn't be concerned with that at all.
From here on out I think this should be all about you. Your healing, your recovery and your emergence from this whole again.
You definately drew the short stick when it came to therapists. But the future in now 100% in your control.
I wish you peace if you decide not to return. I hope you do.
Take good good care.
Seldom.
Posted by lucie lu on October 12, 2008, at 10:05:18
In reply to Now I am really upset, posted by lemonaide on October 11, 2008, at 10:15:46
Lemonaide,
This has obviously been a painful thread for you and for others who have replied. The terrible experiences you have had with your T have felt so devastating to you that discussion of it may be too emotionally charged to be useful to you right now. Maybe it will be necessary to "take ten" - let your head cool, get the blood pressure down. But at some point, I hope you will be able to return t the discussion. I think you are an emotional, passionate person who feels things very deeply. But I also know you, Lemonaide, as an intelligent woman; the thinking and analytic person who is attracted to psychotherapy and law. To do well in both disciplines requires the ability to look at things from many angles and at times be dispassionate. Thesis, antithesis, and synthesis: the analytic process is one through which novel and productive ideas are generated. New and creative ways out of impasses. And Lemonaide, I know about that you have the intelligence and flexibility of thinking to be able to balance the grey tones of an issue. It is just that right now, I think your strong emotional response is understandably getting in the way. If you can take a deep breath, say "ommmmm," and return to the discussion at some point, I think you will find it to be very instructive and productive. After all, the clients you will treat in your future will not benefit much from a strong passionate response from you as your ability to understand theirs yet remain calm and balanced in your thinking. Shouldn't the same be true of you as your own client? You are a very intelligent woman, Lemonaide (didn't you win an award in school recently?) and I believe that if you can step back and let the emotional response settle, that you can use all this to your benefit, cleverly and productively.
It may be helpful to view metaphorically a Babble thread as a deep and open conversation with a deeply loving best friend who knows you well and cares immensely about your welfare. No single poster can address any important issue in the depth that's needed to be most helpful for you in the long run, especially if the issue is an emotionally painful one (aren't most major issues quite painful or they wouldn't be issues?) But seen as a composite, a Babble thread about you is apt to represent what a TRUE and LOVING best friend would tell you. The composite is made up of all the people who care enough about you to write - there are always easier threads to add to, but they try to add something to yours. The composite best friend (CBF) offers not only love and support, but also thoughtful introspection and an invitation to consider multiple angles as a measure of respect for you and as a loving invitation to further personal growth. Only a BF or CBF who cares deeply about you will want you to have all these things. I respect and admire you for many things, as I've said in previous posts, and I see that in their posts, other Babblers are doing for you what a true best friend would do. Sure we all want love and support from our friends, but a true friend will also offer you that extra something, even at her own risk, with nothing but your growth and welfare in her mind. I think that your CBF here knows well that to offer nothing but support would do you a grave disservice. Before leaving that metaphor, imagine yourself having a latte at Starbucks with such a true friend, who has known you for years and understands and accepts the deeper parts of you. You might get upset by what she says and leave in a huff, maybe even vowing never to speak to her again. Maybe while you are in that state of mind, you will be content with the soothing things your other friends say, even if they all say the same thing. This may help because the unanimity of their replies makes you feel a validation that you may lack internally. But eventually, you are going to miss that true friend who cared enough about you to help you think out all the angles when you are so upset, by risking herself and putting her own self on the line. I think that is a true friend, one we would all be lucky to have (there are few around). Your true friend knows that it is not enough to internalize validation from others, we have to eventually work our own ways through our feelings and experiences to be able to validate ourselves. This deeper level of healing can only truly be done within oneself, and requires both heart and head.
Lemonaide, the composite best friend (CBF) here knows you and your history and cares very much for you. A great deal of sympathy and support have been expressed over the past few months, by virtually everyone. But healing from the experience has been understandably difficult and you run the risk of getting stuck long-term in a very painful place. Your CBF is extremely worried about that, and realizes that time alone doesn't always heal all wounds. So while empathy and support will continue to be offered, the CBF, who is a true to you, will bravely help you brainstorm and reframe the experience in a way that will ultimately bring you internal resolution. To try with you different ways to unravel the knot together. Here on Babble, I think your friends, the people who care enough about you to try to serve this function for you, realize that while may 5 or 10 unconditionally supportive posts are absolutely necessary, 100 of the same responses are not going to really be all that helpful for you. They may give you external validation but that really won't heal on its own until you can work it through yourself, as only you as a unique individual can. Therefore, at least some of your friends (metaphorically representing different aspects of your CBF) have taken on the necessary roles to offer other thoughts in an effort to considerably deepen a response to you in your need for healing. That is what Babblers have been trying to do for you, and I think that you will be able to see that when those powerful emotions subside. We are all both feeling and thinking beings, and we do our best living when they operate together as equals.
I hope this helps, Lemonaide, because there is a great deal of love, respect, and caring here on Babble for you. I view it is a tremendous gift to have such a true friend (as your CBT) and also to be able to inspire such a strong sense of friendship and caring in other people.
With love,
Lucie
Posted by rskontos on October 12, 2008, at 15:11:40
In reply to Re: Now I am really upset » lemonaide, posted by lucie lu on October 12, 2008, at 10:05:18
I hesitate to enter the fray because as I too followed this thread today, I realized feelings were running high and I want to be misunderstood either.
Lemonaide, you know I know the situation. I know the pain you have been throughout your life. I will put this as gently as I can, I don't want you to get upset with me, I know Witti and Daisym as well as you do, and they are the kindest sweetest people here who would not ever want to cause you more pain. I think when you read the responses, the emotions that were brought up to the surface included not only the emotions brought up from the pain your T inflicted on you but also those from your childhood which possibly are never far from the surface. I feel we all have layers of emotions and when sometimes these unresolved layers are scratched sometimes the underlying ones are revealed as well. Then, we overract. I say we because I do this all the time. I think this is what happened.
The poem you wrote, evoked painfully memories, both from your T but also from your childhood which he was suppose to be helping you deal with not causing more strife. He added to your pain. He did not help you to a safe place. He took your therapy away from you, left you more wounded. This is obvious because a year and half later the pain is still fresh.
Please don't run and hide. This is to let him win. Take charge of your life by moving forward.
Realize that everyone here is in struggles too and no one wants to make yours harder. Sometimes one of us might just try to get each of us to see things perhaps in a different light not a bad one just a different one. If that different light or view is not one that makes sense discard it. that is all.
I read the posts and did not think they meant to imply you were wrong. You weren't. You have a hard time not thinking that and it is easily read into something when you are hurting. I hope you realize that we all just want you to feel better.
I think the closure you seek to get your emotions regarding old sleazy t out of your system so you can move forward is crucial. You deserve not to give this sleaze ball any more thought. Maybe to file a complaint will do it. Maybe to have a ceremony were you erase him from your soul will do it. Hopefully this new t's validation will make you realize he is a sleaze and just not worth your time. He is not worth another tear, another thought.
Lemonaide is better than him and she has a life worth living and thinking about not him.
So don't leave, realize no one hear meant to hurt your feelings.
Take care,
we care,
rsk
This is the end of the thread.
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