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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by Wittgensteinz on October 2, 2008, at 16:58:56
In reply to Do you know where your T....?, posted by JayMac on October 2, 2008, at 16:15:44
Yes, mine runs his practice from his home - so for me, this isn't an issue. It can be awkward at times as he also just has his home phone and sometimes I phone and his wife answers and then I have to ask to be put through to him - or I can hear he has visitors in the background (he doesn't use an answer phone) and then I feel really guilty for disturbing him.
I can imagine this is a big issue for you - I can see why you are concerned about worrying your T. It's a tricky one but it's something that has come up, and so it's best to try and talk about it with her if you can. What seems to be important is your idealisation of her in contrast with the reality that she is a real person, living not far away and leading her own life. I don't think your curiosity about her real life, including her home, is odd or unusual - in fact isn't it to be expected?
As for my Pdoc. I have just started seeing a new Pdoc. I see him in a private office but he gave me his home address so I could send copies of my notes on to him. I was curious and looked up the address on google earth (actually it's very close to the private office but I have no desire to go by his house). He lives in the nicest part of town - his house must be in excess of 2 million dollars (ok houses are expensive in the Netherlands and Pdocs earn well but still!).
I like going to my T's home to see him - it feels personal and homely (the therapy room is adjoined to his house but shares the same entrance). I always feel comfortable going there. My former Pdoc also had his practice at home but I didn't like that arrangement - he sometimes was rather too underdressed (i.e. one occasion was wearing what looked like jogging clothes). It was also a big mess at his place (even though I only saw the waiting room and office). Plus he had an old schnauzer that wandered around so the place smelled of dog. The new Pdoc dresses for work, his office is fresh and tidy (probably interior designed) - without overly intrusive things from his personal life - I rather like that.
Sorry this was rather long and rambling!
Witti
Posted by lucie lu on October 2, 2008, at 17:44:31
In reply to Do you know where your T....?, posted by JayMac on October 2, 2008, at 16:15:44
Hi Jay,
Definitely do not feel ashamed of these needs and urges, theyre so very common in therapy and just part of the big mix. Your T will have covered this ground before. It is not that you are nosy, its just another manifestation of your trying to work out the intricacies of your relationship with her. This might be a really good time to talk with her - not only about her boundaries are but also about your needs and wishes in that complex arena. She will understand and appreciate that you want to protect her privacy because you care about her, and that you are trying to understand your own needs and want to learn how to balance the needs of both of you. That is a really healthy thing and a great thing to work out. So here's my 2-cents worth:
First of all, don't feel too guilty about finding out where she lives. It is only natural that a client might be curious, and in this electronic age it would be absurd for anyone to think their address is not freely available on the Internet to any 4th grader who bothers to look. I checked out my T on the web, back when I was in my untrusting stage and worried that he might secretly be an axe-murderer. (Well, how would I know if I didn't look? Fortunately he wasn't, no arrests, no suspicious dead bodies, whew!) There is a ton of info that is freely available to the public and IMO it would be rather pointless for a T to ask a client to ignore what a simple Google search would turn up. Let's face it, privacy is not what it used to be. We are all affected. Ever Google yourself?
Having said that... there are important questions you might want to ask yourself. First, what is it that you'd really like to know about her? It's usually personal details that clients want, although some clients may not want to know anything at all; it's a very individual preference. Many Ts will answer at least some basic factual questions if asked, especially in the earlier stages of therapy (it tends to get more complicated later on, which is another good reason for asking early). You can then ask yourself, why it is that you'd like that particular information? Do you need to know more about her as a person to be able to trust her, to keep her in your mind between sessions, to picture her as the mother you never had by finding out whether she has kids of her own, etc? Those would all be rich areas to explore. Let's say you are tempted to drive by her house. What might be the need underlying that wish or action? Would you do it as self-comfort when you are lonely for her? Or to assure yourself that she won't run away?
The advantages of starting to discuss these things together are many. First of all, in a practical sense, you can find out from her exactly where she draws the comfort line. That could help eliminate your guilt and shame about wanting to know something. Many Ts, for example, don't seem to mind clients driving past their street or even house, as long as it's not obsessive, obstructive, or intrusive (opening their mailbox!). They understand how difficult and uncomfortable the therapeutic relationship can feel with its limits and unbalanced power. On the other hand, stalking is illegal. But there's a lot of ground in between. So wouldn't it be nice to take the guilt and worry off you if she said it was OK to drive by her street once in a while? Or maybe you can make a deal to bring the subject up at the next session whenever you have a strong urge to do something like a drive-by. Not so much to prevent you from the action, but to identify a potentially valuable opportunity for learning important things about you and your feelings about your relationship with her. And finally, another advantage in talking about it is that if she can see what needs are being expressed and what yearnings are uncovered, maybe she can help you find a more gratifying or satisfying way to address them, something that actually feels better than a quick drive-by. These are all possibilities, and it sounds like you have a really good T, so I'd go for it and try at least opening the door maybe with a little piece of it - e.g. that you found her address - and go from there. If anything she says embarrasses you or makes you feel ashamed, talk about it directly. Its extremely unlikely that that is her intent and it too can open up rich areas, give her a chance to help you feel less ashamed of your wants and needs etc. The only other piece of advice is to do this fairly early in the relationship. I wish I had, because it's harder to raise these issues later on, or at least it has been for me.
I need to introduce a caveat, in that my assumption is that your T has a psychodynamic orientation, which for some reason I thought was the case. If she's more CBT, she may have an entirely different view of the relationship and its meaning and purpose. I really don't know much about that, maybe someone else can answer that for you if that's her orientation.
Hope this helps,
Lucie
Sorry for the long-winded reply!
Posted by Nadezda on October 2, 2008, at 17:49:48
In reply to Do you know where your T....?, posted by JayMac on October 2, 2008, at 16:15:44
I know where my T lives, but I've only been around there when I needed to go to that part of town. Still, it was at a time when I had a relatively unformed relationship and was in the throes of the whole "how does he really feel about me" --the "is this relationship real--and what does it mean" conundrum. So it felt intrusive and weird to be walking down a street a block from where he lived-- even if it was innocently-- it didn't feel innocent at all, because, I guess, I was so caught up in what felt like illicit thoughts and desires.
I'm not sure if I ever felt drawn to going there-- possibly I did-- but I was either too lazy, or too afraid-- or both-- to carry it out. And, I think, the relationship was doing enough, even at the time, for me to feel that it wasn't somehow that important-- I wouldn't get what I was already getting from our time together.
I don't think, unless there are additional issues around that,--or your T feels insecure with her own boundaries-- that your knowing this would be such a huge issues. But you never know. Some Ts have anxieties that someone will somehow suck them dry, or haunt them to the grave-- or something like that-- and become defensive or uncomfortable with a patient's having "found out."
But, one's home address isn't such a mystery (especially to oneself)-- and it's common knowledge, an everyday thing, to their friends and acquaintances and colleagues. It doesn't have the magical or secret quality that it might have to us--until we endow it with special power.. And by extension, knowing it doesn't give a patient any power to "do" anything to her.
I said something and my T was okay with it-- which made it more okay for me. Given that you're concerned that she might be threatened, maybe you should check it out-- If she's relaxed about it, that might make it less dangerous to know; and the knowledge itself would seem more ordinary and safe.
If you think, realistically, that your T would react badly though--that's a dilemma. If she did have a problem, it might suggest something about how you two are relating though-- because, unless you're stalking her-- which you aren't-- it really isn't anything so bad. If you drove by once-- it's also not so bad. Or maybe it is? it all depends on how it affects you... Do you feel compelled or tempted in some way to do it? And if you did-- then what?
Nadezda
Posted by k9lover on October 2, 2008, at 17:54:10
In reply to Re: Do you know where your T....? » JayMac, posted by lucie lu on October 2, 2008, at 17:44:31
I'm in the process of contemplating changing T's as I relate much, much more to the potential new one than the one I have. I've Googled both, found the second one in a 'hood near mine. I know her car and that she's finishing her Master's. I connect to her in a way I don't with the one I have. I don't know if it's OK to ask for the switch (it's a therapy centre) but I suppose there is no harm in asking.
While I was living in a different city, I actually got to know my T's family and was welcome in their home. That was refreshing and I didn't bend therapeutic boundaries when there, outside the appointment in her office. It is this comfort I feel with the potential second T that I can't even imagine with the one I have.
Oh the debate of it all... but yes - I think it's normal to want to know them a little...
Posted by JayMac on October 2, 2008, at 21:49:00
In reply to Re: Do you know where your T....? » JayMac, posted by Wittgensteinz on October 2, 2008, at 16:58:56
Witt, I've always wondered how it would be to see one's T at their home. I think it would be extremely awkward at first, but I guess I would get used to it. I'm curious how my T decorates her home. Her office is pretty congested with furniture.
Thank you for sharing your experience. It's much appreciated! =)
Posted by JayMac on October 2, 2008, at 22:09:21
In reply to Re: Do you know where your T....? » JayMac, posted by lucie lu on October 2, 2008, at 17:44:31
Lucie, thank you, thank you for understanding. I understand it intellectually, but emotionally, I want to be SO MUCH closer to her. I'm having a really difficult time allowing myself to be close to her. Just the other night, I broke off a recent relationship, and I found myself yearning for my T. She was actually out of town, but I found myself driving around, late last night, looking for any clue that she might be near. It's weird to explain. It's hard to explain.
I know her city, so I found myself driving all over, thinking about her and wishing I could just be in her presence. I try to hold her inside me when she's gone. I just wish she could pick me up and hold me close. This evokes so much emotion in me. I feel like crying.
This afternoon, I googled her (for literally the 15th time) and I just happened to stumble upon a new address associated with her name. I don't know why I hadn't seen the new address before given that I've plunged into the depths of researching her. When I first googled her, I found old where she used to live last year, and when I mentioned it, she told me that she had since moved.
It's weird cuz I know a whole lot more about her than she realizes: her age, religion, her son's name, political views. I don't know. I do feel a whole lot of shame that I know this information but she doesn't know that I know. I'm just looking for some way to get close to her. I understand it, but I don't.I know all the psychological terms, I know the psychoanalytic framework. I've read a whole lot about it all. I have a sincere interest in these subjects, but I also want to understand her more by understanding her beliefs/values/theories better. She is a psychoanalyst, by the way, you got that right.
Anyhow.....thanks again for your response. You are/were very helpful and comforting. It's given me more courage to speak to her. I see her tomorrow morning, by the way. I'm her first appointment.
Posted by JayMac on October 2, 2008, at 22:11:41
In reply to Re: Do you know where your T....? » JayMac, posted by Nadezda on October 2, 2008, at 17:49:48
Thank you. I don't think she will necessarily react negatively. I just don't want her to withdrawal because of it. Thank goodness I'm on meds, otherwise I would be spinning in circles with anxiety! I think she will be "ok" with the information. I just wish I didn't have to go through with the act of telling her. Thanks for your support.
Posted by JayMac on October 2, 2008, at 22:16:27
In reply to Re: Do you know where your T....?, posted by k9lover on October 2, 2008, at 17:54:10
I've found google to be a very necessary resource whenever I meet someone new and I want to know more. A couple years ago, I had a T who invited us (we were her therapy group) into her home for our last "session." It was neat. I met her husband and visited with her daughter, whom I had met previously, but I got to play with her daughter. That was so exciting for me. That was a different context though. She had different boundaries than my current T, not good or bad boundaries, just a different framework. Not to say she didn't help me, she taught me about taking care of myself. I didn't have much transference with that T. I have MAJOR transference with my current T.
Anyways, I think it's necessary to know a little something about a potential T.
Thank you for your input! =)
Posted by JayMac on October 2, 2008, at 22:17:34
In reply to Re: Do you know where your T....?, posted by JayMac on October 2, 2008, at 22:16:27
Opps! The above post was meant to be a response to k9lover. =)
Posted by Nadezda on October 3, 2008, at 10:58:13
In reply to Re: Do you know where your T....? » lucie lu, posted by JayMac on October 2, 2008, at 22:09:21
If you do feel a strong need to be near her, to see her or to go to her house between appointments, one approach could be to have her record something or give you a token of her presence, so you don't need to go through these experiences that evoke shame and guilt.
It's hard, when you need more contact than the hour provides and it may help to have other ways of keeping her present. While she may have boundaries about these things-- most Ts are willing to do something to provide that support.
For that reason if not for all the others, it's worth discussing the issue of your feelings between appointments and the difficulty you have maintaining the connection in her absence.
Nadezda
Posted by Phillipa on October 3, 2008, at 12:52:45
In reply to Re: Do you know where your T....? » JayMac, posted by Nadezda on October 3, 2008, at 10:58:13
Years ago a lot of pdocs and therapists had offices in their house you would see their families animals out the windows. Didn't think much of it it was the thing then. Recently with my husband in a store he saw the old T I had here And I didn't care and she didn't see him. It's just not a thing with me. To me they are no different then us they shop, they eat, sleep, live in houses. Oh another pdoc I had he knew I knew where he lived he didn't care was on the way to his office. I personally just find them people like us probably also with problems. Now this is just me and my own experiences and thoughts. Love Phillipa
Posted by JayMac on October 3, 2008, at 12:59:47
In reply to Re: Do you know where your T....? » JayMac, posted by Nadezda on October 3, 2008, at 10:58:13
I saw my T this morning. During the first half, we spoke about my past romantic relationships. I had to stop though, and I told her that I want to continue the topic, but I needed to discuss another issue. I told her that I went searching for her late at night, even though she was away visiting family. I told her that I've been googling her and have found out more information about her. I told her that I think I came across her address. I didn't give specifics, I didn't tell her the address that I think she lives at. I don't know if that was necessary to say. I told her that if I was in a lot of hurt and pain that I would want to go to her house and knock on her door, but I'm also afraid of that. She asked me what I was afriad of, I said that she will open and be upset. I said there's a 99.9% chance that I would not do it. I'm even afraid of calling her cell phone and crossing that boundary. I don't know if I would have the nerve to knock on her front door.
When our time was up, I didn't want to move. I just wanted to stay there forever. I was about to cry. I would have let myself, if I didn't have to go to work right afterwards. While she was writing my insurance receipt, she asked me how I was feeling. I told her I wanted to cry. She asked me where that was coming from, and I told her that I think I'm grieving my mom. She warmly agreed (we have previously spoken about my needing to grieve about my lack of a mother growing up). I know she could tell I was feeling a whole lot, she gave me a very empathic, concerned look. I was about to burst into tears.
On my way to work, a couple tears came out. I was about to take the day off, but I cannot afford not to work today.I still have a lot going on inside me right now. It's really really really hard right now to contain it all. I need my container (aka my T). I want to feel close to her (major transference: my mom) soooooo incredibly bad.
This hurts. But I know I can see her next week and we can continue our work together. I just hope I don't get too depressed and anxious with all of this.
I don't know if this post makes any sense. I'm typing quickly. Let me know if you want me to clarify.
Thanks.
Posted by lucie lu on October 3, 2008, at 15:45:33
In reply to Re: Do you know where your T....?, posted by JayMac on October 3, 2008, at 12:59:47
Hi Jay,
I was rooting for you and hoping your session went well this morning, but the way it went absolutely blew me away! They say that courage is not lack of fear but the willingness to act despite the fear. That's what you did this morning. I was, and am, incredibly moved by your courage. And your openness and caring for your T as well - she must feel lucky to have a client like you, one who is willing to probe painful areas with honesty and compassion. Did you feel your T rose to the occasion, as it sounded? IMO this bodes well for your relationship and an ultimate good outcome from your therapy. I can only repeat - you are awesome, Jay. You have what it takes to heal and move on.
I know how hard it can be to leave after such a session. When it's happened to me, it has felt as if I've been left on the operating table, cut wide open. Sometimes the limitations of the therapy session especially suck, and I know that Ts feel that way too at times like these. Back to the operating table metaphor, have you ever had surgery- even minor, like a wisdom tooth extraction? If not, this may not make sense to you. But if you have, what you experienced this morning may have felt like surgery, and the operation went well but now they have to send you home. They tell you you'll probably have some post-op pain, so they tell you to be very, very good to yourself, take it slow and easy, baby yourself a bit. Let yourself rent that movie you've been wanting to watch, eat chocolates or ice cream (or better, chocolate ice cream!), take a bubble bath, sleep with a hot water bottle. Let yourself recover, give yourself lots of well-earned TLC and pats on the back for getting through a difficult procedure. You can babblemail and post here and get lots of hugs and understanding. Because what you did this morning was great, very hard but a big step forward. You did great, Jay, and you should be proud of yourself for what you were able to do this morning.
Love, Lucie
p.s. Please feel free to babblemail me if you want to talk.
Posted by Nadezda on October 3, 2008, at 17:22:05
In reply to Re: Do you know where your T....?, posted by JayMac on October 3, 2008, at 12:59:47
I agree with Lucie lu. Those were incredibly difficult and courageous things to say and the intensity of saying them and hearing your T;s response must have taken a lot out of you. I know you wanted and needed something to help you and maybe to answer and even make the feelings better. And it's hard to deal with there not being any immediate answer or cure for them. Over time, I"m sure you'll find an answer-- or way of connecting to your T-- that will make these feelings bearable and will eventually assuage them.
But just starting the conversation is such a remarkable accomplishment. I'm sure your T also wishes there were a way to piggyback over the time that the experience of knowing one another deeply takes. Just try to remember that that will make a huge difference.
These feelings probably will wax and wane depending on other things, especially the optimism and sense of connection that you feel at any moment in other parts of your life. It's a process-- but the fact that you could be so open and take such a risk says to me that you'll make great progress and won't stay in this place for too long. It's just incredibly hard to talk about these things.
And I also agree with Lucie Lu about your taking care of yourself--you need to relax and restore yourself after such a difficult day.
I hope you can feel good about what you've done.
Nadezda
Posted by DAisym on October 3, 2008, at 19:15:45
In reply to Re: Do you know where your T....?, posted by JayMac on October 3, 2008, at 12:59:47
I think these intense feelings ebb and flow in therapy, based on what is happing in your own life and what you are working on in therapy. I absolutely agree with Lucie - be nice to yourself and use distractions to help you through the tough times.
I used to think of it as merging, almost, with my therapist. So when I left, I had to tear myself away and it felt so alone and so cold. I felt this terrifying sensation of coming apart - fragmenting - and he seemed to be the only one who could hold me together. We worked on this a lot - and I think you telling your therapist all that you did today is one of those hugely important steps to getting a handle on your attachment.
It takes time, but eventually you will be able to (mostly) hold on to her in-between sessions. Until then, write to her like you were talking to her or find a concrete way to "hold" her. I have my therapist's talisman and a couple of other little things he has given me over the years. They help. He also leaves me voicemails when I'm having a hard time feeling him with me. Once we did this whole exercise in visioning - I wanted to be able to imagine where he was when he wasn't in his office. So he described his home office so I could really "see" him. It helps but it also tells me these things are OK and he understands how I'm feeling.
I hope you have a good weekend.
Posted by Poet on October 4, 2008, at 11:45:42
In reply to Do you know where your T....?, posted by JayMac on October 2, 2008, at 16:15:44
Hi JayMac,
I know where she lives and did drive by once when I was coming back from pdoc's office which is a few blocks away.
I've never told her that I drove by, she uses her home phone number so it's not like I had to do research to find out where she lives.
My expdoc worked out of his house which I actually drive by frequently because it's close to where I live (there are railroad tracks in between so I am on the wrong side of the tracks)and I just sigh because his house is gorgeous.
Anyway, I wouldn't worry about telling your T if you just did it once.
Poet
Posted by JayMac on October 4, 2008, at 12:15:05
In reply to Jay, that took guts. You are awesome!! » JayMac, posted by lucie lu on October 3, 2008, at 15:45:33
You are so right. Thank you for all your love and support!!!!! =)
Hugs Lucie!!!!
Love, Jay
Posted by JayMac on October 4, 2008, at 12:27:07
In reply to Re: Do you know where your T....? » JayMac, posted by DAisym on October 3, 2008, at 19:15:45
DAisym,
You got that right: I am definitely trying to hold her between sessions. I need her to hold me too. I've told her that I am/was afraid she would forget about me between sessions. She assured me that she doesn't forget about me.Actually!!! ........yesterday morning, she came across an interesting article (in a subject we both love) and gave me a copy. I was touched. That was very meaningful. I'm not exactly what it means, but I know it means something special.
Posted by JayMac on October 4, 2008, at 12:29:18
In reply to Re: Do you know where your T....? » JayMac, posted by Poet on October 4, 2008, at 11:45:42
Thank you Poet. I'm sure, at some point, I will drive by, or at least attempt to drive by. I'm pretty sure her neighborhood is gated. Thank you for the reassurance =) It's much appreciated.
Posted by JayMac on October 4, 2008, at 12:32:46
In reply to Re: Do you know where your T....? » JayMac, posted by Nadezda on October 3, 2008, at 17:22:05
I try to take care of myself, I think I've done pretty well lately.
Before I leave her office, my T always says, "Take good care!" Sometimes she'll add "my dear" and say: "Take good care my dear!" I always smile when I hear either one. Thanks for reminding me!!! =)
Posted by lucie lu on October 4, 2008, at 14:01:34
In reply to Re: Do you know where your T....? » DAisym, posted by JayMac on October 4, 2008, at 12:27:07
> DAisym,
> You got that right: I am definitely trying to hold her between sessions. I need her to hold me too. I've told her that I am/was afraid she would forget about me between sessions. She assured me that she doesn't forget about me.
>
> Actually!!! ........yesterday morning, she came across an interesting article (in a subject we both love) and gave me a copy. I was touched. That was very meaningful. I'm not exactly what it means, but I know it means something special.Jay,
I think she was showing you in a very tangible way that she does appreciate you as a person and indeed thinks about you between sessions. Plus you haved something from her that can help keep you connected between sessions. Really well chosen gesture, no wonder you felt it was meaningful and special, because it was. I think you have a very smart (and good-hearted) T - lucky you! Seems like you two may be a great match.
Lucie
Posted by DAisym on October 4, 2008, at 18:35:41
In reply to Re: Do you know where your T....? » DAisym, posted by JayMac on October 4, 2008, at 12:27:07
I think it was proof that she *does* think about you and keeps you in mind. It is as important to emerging relationships to know that the other person thinks of you as "real" all the time as it is for you to think of her as real.
I think it was sweet she brought you the article.
Posted by JayMac on October 4, 2008, at 18:48:44
In reply to Re: Do you know where your T....? » JayMac, posted by lucie lu on October 4, 2008, at 14:01:34
I agree with you. It's a tangible object of her affection.
I was thinking about it last night and I cried. I haven't read the article yet, and neither has she (even though it's her indulgence).
It excites me to think that we are cultivating that sort of friendship. Last we were sharing our mutual love for piano and she asked what that means to me, I said that it means we have somthing in common, and she said that she sees it as us forming a friendship.
=)
Posted by JayMac on October 4, 2008, at 18:58:41
In reply to Re: Do you know where your T....? » JayMac, posted by DAisym on October 4, 2008, at 18:35:41
I think it's great proof! She is genuinely sweet, warm, and affectionate. It's interesting: she has hugged me once (it was completely spontaneous, it was when I told her that I got into graduate school, and she opened her arms and hugged me for, what seemed like, a long time). Although, she has not hugged me since, I can definitely *feel* like she is hugging me when I'm on her couch or when she's seeing me to the door.
This may sound weird, and don't it weirdly, but one time while I was sobbing and unable to speak more than 2 words at time, I could hear her in the background gently caressing something. I don't know what the "something" was exactly, but, I felt that she was soothing me. I have no idea if she was even aware of her caressing! Nevertheless, it had an impact on me. I love the unconscious mind.
I'm 100% sure if she weren't my T and I wasn't her patient, that she would have hugged me the same way she would hug a grieving child. This may sound crazy, weird, or unreal, but it was more real than I can express. I could really feel that she was *feeling* with me.
Posted by healing928 on October 5, 2008, at 18:52:19
In reply to Do you know where your T....?, posted by JayMac on October 2, 2008, at 16:15:44
I had a really deep dependence on my t a few months ago, but things are much better. He is in the phone book, but I could never drive by. I thought that was invading his personal space, and he would lose the trust he has in me. Try putting yourself in your t's shoes, how would that make you feel?
We live in the same town; I haven't ran into him, but my husband has.
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