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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 19 of 19. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Tamar on September 4, 2008, at 16:55:06
My marriage has been far from healthy for a few years now. My husband has a problem managing his anger - well, he doesnt see it as a problem. But I do. And its been especially bad since Ive been depressed because I cant handle being screamed at (I used to be able to scream back when I was healthy).
Whenever I try to talk to him about it calmly, he screams at me and accuses me of making him out to be a monster or he says I treat him like sh*t. And for a long time I believed him, but at some point I realised it wasnt really all my fault, and that he was actually being quite unreasonable. About a year ago I told him that if he wanted to stay married he had to get professional help.
Where I live people are usually referred to a therapist by their GP. So he went to the GP and she wrote a letter to the mental health agency, and they set up an appointment for him with *my* therapist. Needless to say, my therapist thought this would be a Bad Idea, and so referred him to another mental health agency. And then we heard nothing for months. I asked my husband to call them and find out when he might get an appointment, but he kept forgetting to get around to it.
Meanwhile, the angry explosions continued. I didnt want to be around my husband. I just didnt want him near me. I was having trouble feeling love or respect for him. I stopped having sex with him. Then I stopped sleeping in the same room as him. Eventually I started reading some stuff about emotional and verbal abuse and it all matched the ways he was behaving. So last week I reminded him that getting help was a condition of remaining married, and asked him to get around to calling. I told him I wasnt prepared to put up with his behaviour any longer. He exploded at me a few times in response, but I sat through it, calmly dissociating, and simply repeated myself. And this week he called the agency and they gave him an appointment for that afternoon.
So hes seen his therapist once. And maybe she can help. But it has taken so long to get to this point that I dont know whether it can actually save our marriage. A couple of weeks ago I was on the point of moving out and had started actively looking for somewhere else to live (without telling my husband). And even if he never screams at me again, and never calls me names again, and never blames me for his anger again, I cant imagine wanting to be completely his wife again, or share a bed with him, or have sex with him. And I feel like a total b*tch, because he is finally doing what I asked him to do, but I dont think Im going to be able to keep my side of the bargain.
Sorry this got so long.
Posted by lucie lu on September 4, 2008, at 18:35:42
In reply to My husband is in therapy, posted by Tamar on September 4, 2008, at 16:55:06
Tamar,
I felt sad reading your post, especially because I went through something similar and I know how awful it feels. It s*cks.
First of all, even though you made a request of him, presumably there was an implied time frame. Months later was not part of your request! So you definitely should not feel like a b*tch.
We probably read the same books and have similar responses to poorly-controlled anger. Actually, who wouldn't? Inappropriate or extreme expressions of anger are relationship killers.
Luckily, our marriage managed to survive, although sometimes the present echoes the past, but it was not wthout major changes in us as individuals and as a couple. Although my H is resistant to therapy, he agreed to trying some A/Ds, which his PCP prescribed. This actually helped to tone down his outbursts, which made me think that there may have been some biological component. Before, the outbursts would of course distance him from others, which would make him angrier and more depressed, and angrier, and... you get the picture.
And finally - and I am not at all suggesting this might be your case at all because I don't know you or your husband - the progress I was making in my own therapy by this time made me realize that although I was in no way "asking for it" or "deserved" unacceptable behavior, I was participating in relational dynamics that were destructive. These problems so quickly become vicious cycles! My contribution was trauma related and as I contnued to heal, and with my T's help, things began to change between us. And BTW, sex cannot help but go south when you don't feel safe together.
To summarize, I think the things that changed the trajectory for us were his taking the A/D's (which I'm convinced really helped) and my ongoing trauma therapy and healing.
Anyway I hope there is something in this rambling acount that might be helpful, even if it is only my empathy for you and your situation. I really hope things work out for you.
Take care, Lucie ((((Tamar))))
Posted by Phillipa on September 4, 2008, at 23:50:52
In reply to My husband is in therapy, posted by Tamar on September 4, 2008, at 16:55:06
Tamar you sure you're not married to my husband? But mine says he has no problems it's all me and if he knew I'd get sick he never would have married me. I also do not have sex with him why should I? I do understand. Love Phillipa
Posted by lemonaide on September 5, 2008, at 0:08:39
In reply to Re: My husband is in therapy » Tamar, posted by lucie lu on September 4, 2008, at 18:35:42
Wow Tamar, I had no idea things got this bad between you. It does say something that he is getting therapy, mine won't do that yet. But sometimes it is too late, but only time will tell. Just because he is going to therapy, doesn't mean he will willing to changes his behavior. (or who knows how long it will take)
Is there such thing as a happy marriage anywhere? I am beginning to think it is a myth and a con to make us want the fantasy of being happily married.
Tamar, please take care of yourself and don't rush into this with him. Baby steps okay. ((((Tamar)))))
Posted by Daisym on September 5, 2008, at 0:54:29
In reply to Re: My husband is in therapy, posted by lemonaide on September 5, 2008, at 0:08:39
Leaving was the hardest thing I've ever done. My husband went to therapy AFTER I left. But he went truly wanting to change and wanting me to come back. And I really wanted him to change but it was too late for me. Sometimes the damage is too extensive to save things. I think he sensed this because he stopped after a few weeks having figured out with this therapist that he was "perfectly fine" -- it was me who was all screwed up. *sigh* And after he quit his own therapy, he decided therapy had made me leave him.
I guess I'm saying, yes, you can be done. It makes it all very sad, not you a bitch.
This is hard to admit but I have figured out that before I left, I didn't truly want him to be better because I wanted ending our marriage to be his fault. Not that I provoked him and God knows he was a jerk. But if he had really tried to work on himself then I'd have had to try to let him make it up to me and I just couldn't.
And, even harder to admit, I didn't want him to have the caring and acceptance from a therapist that I had with mine. I was so mad and hurt that I wanted him to suffer, and suffer alone...like I had.
Unlike you, it never occurred to me that I didn't have to have sex with him. Even when I moved across the hall right before I moved out, he came in and got in bed with me. Sad, huh?
I'm not saying you shouldn't try to work things out. But acknowledging someone has changed doesn't undo what they did. It will be better for your kids if he is less angry. He will be a better person for you to call your "ex-" if he takes a look at himself. Therapy is usually an eye-opener for people.
Posted by sassyfrancesca on September 5, 2008, at 8:20:06
In reply to My husband is in therapy, posted by Tamar on September 4, 2008, at 16:55:06
Oh, sweetie: i was married to a verbal abuser for 31 years. I hope you will read the book that saved my life. The Verbally Abusive Relationship by Patricia Evans; I believe this book should be required reading for everyone on the planet.
Verbal abuse affects 1 in every 3 women in the U.S. (probably around the world).
I am the moderator of an abused survivors' group.
Unless his therapist is specifically trained in verbal abuse, nothing will happen
Abuser who go into therapy (unless they are super motivated), rarely stay the course; they really dont believe THEY have a problem.
you need to do what YOU need to do for yourself.
Hugs and Love, Sassy
As far as your "bargain"----it didn't include abuse; that is a deal-breaker....
Posted by Tamar on September 5, 2008, at 9:07:05
In reply to Re: My husband is in therapy » Tamar, posted by lucie lu on September 4, 2008, at 18:35:42
Thanks so much for your supportive post, Lucie. Yes, you're right months later was definitely not part of my request!
I wonder if my husband would consider taking ADs. I doubt it, because he doesn't really recognise that he has a problem, and he views doing his therapy as a sort of 'favour' to me, but I don't think his generosity would extend as far as taking psychoactive medication! I might ask, though. I suppose it depends how much is at stake for him. But that's a great idea, if I can get him to agree!
I could easily be participating in unhelpful relationship dynamics. I have a history of trauma too and sometimes I over-react to triggers. It's definitely something worth considering. I hope this kind of thing will become clear as he gets to know himself a bit better through therapy. If the therapy goes well, I'm actually anticipating hearing a lot more anger from him than before, but if it's expressed in a reasonable way I can handle it.
But whether I can tolerate renewing our intimacy... I guess that remains to be seen.
Posted by Tamar on September 5, 2008, at 9:11:57
In reply to Re: My husband is in therapy » Tamar, posted by Phillipa on September 4, 2008, at 23:50:52
> Tamar you sure you're not married to my husband? But mine says he has no problems it's all me and if he knew I'd get sick he never would have married me. I also do not have sex with him why should I? I do understand. Love Phillipa
Oh gosh! Imagine if our husband had two wives and was angry with both of them! That's a lot of anger.
It's the mean comments that hurt the most. My husband hasn't ever said he wouldn't have married me if he'd known I'd get sick, but he calls me lazy when I'm having a rough day and can't get off the sofa. And other stuff like that.
Yeah, it's not conducive to passion and romance, is it?
Posted by Tamar on September 5, 2008, at 9:19:12
In reply to Re: My husband is in therapy, posted by lemonaide on September 5, 2008, at 0:08:39
> Wow Tamar, I had no idea things got this bad between you. It does say something that he is getting therapy, mine won't do that yet. But sometimes it is too late, but only time will tell. Just because he is going to therapy, doesn't mean he will willing to changes his behavior. (or who knows how long it will take)
I think I was probably in denial for a long time too. And to some extent I believed him when he said it was all my fault. And of course he's not nasty every minute of every day, and when he's nice he's lovely. He can be very supportive and sweet when he's not screaming at me. So it's confusing.
> Is there such thing as a happy marriage anywhere? I am beginning to think it is a myth and a con to make us want the fantasy of being happily married.
Maybe you're right! I know that all marriages have problems. But I did hope that happiness would emerge in between the problems! I suppose, though, that the problems would have to be resolved for the happiness to emerge, and if one partner denies there's a problem it's a bit tricky to resolve things, eh?
> Tamar, please take care of yourself and don't rush into this with him. Baby steps okay. ((((Tamar)))))
>Thanks so much, Lemonaide. Yeah, rushing would probably be foolish. I've been so desperate to escape for such a long time that I didn't realise how p*ssed off I am about things. I need to be calmer to make sensible decisions. Baby steps, then.
Posted by onceupon on September 5, 2008, at 9:32:54
In reply to My husband is in therapy, posted by Tamar on September 4, 2008, at 16:55:06
You don't sound like a bitch to me. You sound like a woman who has too much self-respect to allow her partner to treat her like sh*t. Please know that in saying this, I'm not implying that if you choose to stay, that means you have no self-respect. I know how complicated the issue of staying vs. leaving can be, especially when it's not just you and your husband in the equation.
Some things can't be undone. It sounds like, in your mind, your husband's actions are too little, too late. And I would be inclined to agree. Even if your husband thinks, "Well, I went to therapy. I've covered my bases," it doesn't necessarily mean he'll feel compelled to change his behaviors.
Sorry if I come across too strongly here. It's hard not to see my own marital issues here. I'm in a similar boat, in that my husband has done some things that I once thought could be repaired, but as time goes by, it's dawning on me that his two affairs (one physical, one emotional) had caused me to lose respect and love for him. And, while I hold onto the ideal of the stable nuclear family that we were supposed to create, that dream is pretty much crumbling in front of me. Like you, I can't imagine being attracted to him or having sex with him ever again.
I don't know if you've agonized about leaving in the same way that I have. It sounds like you've got small children too and ultimately, that's what's keeping me in the marriage.
I hope you keep posting about your process. If you're cool with it, I'd like to give you a hug (Tamar). I know how devastating all of this can feel.
Posted by Tamar on September 5, 2008, at 9:53:14
In reply to Re: My husband is in therapy, posted by Daisym on September 5, 2008, at 0:54:29
> Leaving was the hardest thing I've ever done. My husband went to therapy AFTER I left. But he went truly wanting to change and wanting me to come back. And I really wanted him to change but it was too late for me. Sometimes the damage is too extensive to save things. I think he sensed this because he stopped after a few weeks having figured out with this therapist that he was "perfectly fine" -- it was me who was all screwed up. *sigh* And after he quit his own therapy, he decided therapy had made me leave him.
I've heard that kind of thing before, about the husband deciding his wife left because of her therapy. I suppose it's inevitable when people refuse to look at their own shortcomings.
> I guess I'm saying, yes, you can be done. It makes it all very sad, not you a bitch.
>
> This is hard to admit but I have figured out that before I left, I didn't truly want him to be better because I wanted ending our marriage to be his fault. Not that I provoked him and God knows he was a jerk. But if he had really tried to work on himself then I'd have had to try to let him make it up to me and I just couldn't.I feel exactly the same way at the moment. Since my husband's appointment I've been feeling incredibly angry. Part of my anger has been about recognising that things really have been that bad, but part of it is anger at the idea that I might have to stay and work things out with him, and that my fantasy of escape won't come true. Maybe I simply have to accept that if I leave it could be my fault...
> And, even harder to admit, I didn't want him to have the caring and acceptance from a therapist that I had with mine. I was so mad and hurt that I wanted him to suffer, and suffer alone...like I had.
Yeah. Mind you, I think my husband's therapy will be quite short term and CBT, so I don't worry too much about him getting the kind of caring that I do.
> Unlike you, it never occurred to me that I didn't have to have sex with him. Even when I moved across the hall right before I moved out, he came in and got in bed with me. Sad, huh?
It took me ages to realise I didn't have to have sex with him, but once I made the decision it was easier than I'd expected. I imagine it was different for you because of your history. If sex is done to you without your consent (and when consent simply isn't possible because of your age), then it must be very difficult to imagine yourself as having any agency in sexual relationships.
> I'm not saying you shouldn't try to work things out. But acknowledging someone has changed doesn't undo what they did. It will be better for your kids if he is less angry. He will be a better person for you to call your "ex-" if he takes a look at himself. Therapy is usually an eye-opener for people.
You're so right about the kids. And I really hope the therapy does open his eyes and help him to be a better person and a happier person.
Thanks for your wise words!
Posted by Tamar on September 5, 2008, at 10:14:37
In reply to Re: My husband is in therapy, posted by sassyfrancesca on September 5, 2008, at 8:20:06
> Oh, sweetie: i was married to a verbal abuser for 31 years. I hope you will read the book that saved my life. The Verbally Abusive Relationship by Patricia Evans; I believe this book should be required reading for everyone on the planet.
I haven't read her whole book yet, but I've read a lot of excerpts from it in different places. It was at that point that it dawned on me that it really was as awful as it felt, and I wasn't blowing it out of proportion.
> Verbal abuse affects 1 in every 3 women in the U.S. (probably around the world).
>
> I am the moderator of an abused survivors' group.That's a lot of abuse. It's scary to realise how much this happens.
> Unless his therapist is specifically trained in verbal abuse, nothing will happenWow, gosh, I don't know whether she is trained in emotional abuse but I know that my husband was referred to her specifically for anger management, so I hope her training includes verbal abuse.
> Abuser who go into therapy (unless they are super motivated), rarely stay the course; they really dont believe THEY have a problem.
Well if he doesn't stay the course that's definitely my cue to leave. I hope he is motivated because I have told him that I won't stay with him if he doesn't deal with it, but if his denial makes him unable to get through it then there's nothing I can do about it except make my decisions for myself.
> you need to do what YOU need to do for yourself.You are right. Thank you.
> Hugs and Love, Sassy
>
> As far as your "bargain"----it didn't include abuse; that is a deal-breaker....I think that's true. Gosh this is hard. I'm still struggling to believe his behaviour actually deserves the description 'abuse'. It just seems so unlikely. But going by the definitions I've read, that's what it is.
Posted by Tamar on September 5, 2008, at 10:33:03
In reply to Re: My husband is in therapy, posted by onceupon on September 5, 2008, at 9:32:54
> You don't sound like a bitch to me. You sound like a woman who has too much self-respect to allow her partner to treat her like sh*t. Please know that in saying this, I'm not implying that if you choose to stay, that means you have no self-respect. I know how complicated the issue of staying vs. leaving can be, especially when it's not just you and your husband in the equation.
Thank you. It's sometimes hard to believe that his behaviour really is unacceptable. But it makes me feel like sh*t, so I guess that's the key.
> Some things can't be undone. It sounds like, in your mind, your husband's actions are too little, too late. And I would be inclined to agree. Even if your husband thinks, "Well, I went to therapy. I've covered my bases," it doesn't necessarily mean he'll feel compelled to change his behaviors.
Yes, exactly. Too little, too late. And I'm not completely convinced it will lead to long term change, because we've done couples therapy before and he was enthusiastic about making changes during the therapy, but two months after the therapy ended he stopped making the effort.
> Sorry if I come across too strongly here. It's hard not to see my own marital issues here. I'm in a similar boat, in that my husband has done some things that I once thought could be repaired, but as time goes by, it's dawning on me that his two affairs (one physical, one emotional) had caused me to lose respect and love for him. And, while I hold onto the ideal of the stable nuclear family that we were supposed to create, that dream is pretty much crumbling in front of me. Like you, I can't imagine being attracted to him or having sex with him ever again.I'm so sorry you've been so badly hurt. Infidelity hasn't been an issue in my marriage, but in has happened to a couple of my close friends and they were devastated. They wanted to ask over and over, "Why?" And no reason was sufficient because the affairs were entirely unjustifiable (as affairs usually are, of course). It changed everything.
> I don't know if you've agonized about leaving in the same way that I have. It sounds like you've got small children too and ultimately, that's what's keeping me in the marriage.
Yes, you're right! I have three children: the youngest is three and the oldest is eight. And my husband screams at them too, and that's part of the dilemma. Am I well enough to cope with being a single parent if I leave my marriage? Or do I leave my children with my explosive husband? I can't do the latter. If he gets better with them, maybe I could do the former... i just don't know. I want do what's best for them but I simply don't know what that is at the moment.
> I hope you keep posting about your process. If you're cool with it, I'd like to give you a hug (Tamar). I know how devastating all of this can feel.Thank you for the hug. I like hugs. Here's one for you too: (onceupon)
Posted by Dinah on September 5, 2008, at 14:14:00
In reply to Re: My husband is in therapy » onceupon, posted by Tamar on September 5, 2008, at 10:33:03
It's so complicated. Especially when kids are involved. Because obviously being yelled at is not good for them. But being a single parent is hard. And you're always connected to him through your kids. He'll be in their lives one way or another.
I don't want to put my husband down. He's great in many ways. But he has enormously high expectations and is difficult when anyone (including himself) doesn't live up to them. There are times when my son says things about his dad that break my heart, and times when I really want to apologize to my son for choosing my husband as his father.
I've told him myself that I wish I were a coworker, because he treats his coworkers with respect, while he is either mildly or loudly disapproving and disrespectful with me.
I could take it for myself, because I do see his point at times. But my son is wonderful and deserves all the respect in the world.
Fortunately those high expectations work in our favor as well. If he can be brought to see, either by us or often by a professional, that anyone as wonderful as he is wouldn't be acting the way he is acting, he pulls himself together and monitors his behavior.
There's a movie called "Four Seasons" with Alan Alda. My favorite words are marriage are in it. His character describes marriages as a wave. There are troughs and crests. At one point he tells his wife "This is a trough."
(My husband likes to quote the line where his character says with great calm composure 'I am enraged.', because that's the sort of thing I do. He all too often ignores the warning because it's given so calmly.)
One thing I have learned about renewing my own marriage is that it does a world of good to act 'as if' sometimes. When things are rotten, I try to step back and reestablish the relationship I want by acting as if it already exists. It *is* possible to fall in love again. It's just harder than the first time.
All that, of course, is the big *if* he's willing to treat you with the respect he wishes to be treated with. You can't do anything on your own, and your kids shouldn't have to live with someone who will yell at them all the time.
On a totally practical note, it's always wise to consult an attorney before moving to dissolve a marriage. It's no small undertaking to embark on a life as a single mother of three very young kids. While it is an emotional decision, it's also a logistical operation. :(
(((Tamar)))
I think it's wonderful that your therapist has been with you for all this. I know it's not all that easy to get long term therapy approval, and I'm so glad that it was possible. I remember you were worried.
Posted by Phillipa on September 5, 2008, at 19:15:31
In reply to Re: My husband is in therapy » Tamar, posted by Dinah on September 5, 2008, at 14:14:00
Kids all grown today and I've been married more than once. First was cheater and tried the marriage counseling for seven years as kids young then and stays cause of that. Today or after I ended it they said I should have done it years before as it impacted them also. Love Phillipa. I seem to pick the same type of men all the time.
Posted by JayMac on September 6, 2008, at 0:28:31
In reply to My husband is in therapy, posted by Tamar on September 4, 2008, at 16:55:06
I know I kinda joined this thread late, but I just wanted to add 2 simple suggestions:
1. Do what you need to do to take care of your kids
2. Do what you need to do to take care of YOURSELF so that you can then continue to take care of your kids.I sounds like many, if not all, of us have been abused in the past or are being abused now and so we know how damaging, destructive, and difficult abuse can be. But although it is EXTREMELY difficult to get out of an abusive relationship and become healthy, you need to do what is BEST for yourself and for your children. I'm not trying to suggest you file for divorce or separate. I just want you to be safe, I want your children to be safe. You need to make the assessment of whether or not you are safe.
Many hugs to you Tamar! Take care of yourself!
Posted by caraher on September 7, 2008, at 20:16:52
In reply to My husband is in therapy, posted by Tamar on September 4, 2008, at 16:55:06
(((Tamar)))
It sounds like you've been more than fair to your husband with all this. If you find yourself unable to feel a certain way you can't blame yourself for that. Even if he's a changed man tomorrow not everyone could shake off the bad things the way you'd like to, and nobody can ask for more than an honest try. And with the children there's always that much more pressure to "make things work," which I think makes it harder to genuinely make things better (as opposed to rationalizing putting up with misery).
Posted by antigua3 on September 8, 2008, at 9:17:52
In reply to Re: My husband is in therapy » Tamar, posted by Dinah on September 5, 2008, at 14:14:00
I don't want to hijack this thread, but just wanted to say Dinah, try not to worry too much about your son's reaction to his father right now. Part of it is definitely growing up, and his need to separate from his father so he can become his own man. I'm sure you probably already know this, but I want to give you some reassurance.
IME, as he grows older he will find the balance about his father that you'd like him to see now. At least that was my experience with my oldest.
antigua
Posted by Dinah on September 9, 2008, at 7:59:30
In reply to Re: My husband is in therapy » Dinah, posted by antigua3 on September 8, 2008, at 9:17:52
Thanks, Antigua.
I don't really want to give the wrong idea about their relationship. When my husband isn't acting like an *ss, they have a great relationship. They have an awful lot in common, and joke and laugh all the time.
The really good thing is that with the help of therapy my son has learned not to internalize my husband's less charming moments, and not to blame himself for them (for the most part). He really does realize it's his dad, not him. Most of the time. That's a good thing, even if it leads him to view his dad negatively at times.
I also have to give my husband some credit. He deals with anxiety and stress by trying to control his environment. I think it's pretty cool of him that when he can be brought to see what he's doing, he makes an effort and changes his behavior. I *might* wish that he could be brought to see it a bit quicker. But the involvement of my son's therapist seems to work if logic doesn't. He really does hold himself to high standards.
I suppose if I were him, I'd be more than a bit frustrated with me as well.
Perhaps it's because my husband does change his behavior, if not for love of us then at least to maintain his self image (not that he doesn't love us dearly of course), that I tend to be optimistic about two people being able to negotiate and renegotiate a marriage that does have its highs and lows. Clearly if a spouse isn't willing to do that, it is a different matter.
This is the end of the thread.
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