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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 13 of 13. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by DAisym on August 15, 2008, at 21:05:17
I've figured out that I have a very hard time when I think my therapist is diagnosing me or putting me in some kind of pathological group. And I really don't like it when he agrees with my own assessments. I guess he is "supposed" to just jump in and say, "no, no, really, you are alone and isolated because of all these things - it isn't your fault..." Ug. Instead he asks, "what do you think would help you not feel this way?"
I make fun but it hurts. And feeling the hurt alerts me to the truth that perhaps I don't want to do my own hard work around populating my life with supports and activities. I complain about being alone or not really knowing where my passion lies anymore - but I don't do anything about it. I hide with my books or I work all the time. Do I want my therapist to just fill up the void with his caring?
Last session he said, "I think it is going to take a psychic shift in something fundamental about your organizing principles. You need to find somewhere that you feel you belong." I know he isn't sending me away but...
And I looked up "abandonment depression." I'm not BPD, not that this matters. But the basic descriptions of this form of depression filled me with so much shame. I feel like I should be able to talk myself out of being depressed - I can be alone with myself and be fine. And do I make unreasonable demands on him for attention? I hope not but probably. I resolved to be "better" - to be "happier." I want to be like Oprah and write in my gratitude journal. Sadly, I don't even have one. I know you can't just talk yourself out of depression and PTSD. But I sure am "fine" right now.
so why do I want to cry?
Posted by zenhussy on August 15, 2008, at 23:23:23
In reply to Feeling shame and anger, posted by DAisym on August 15, 2008, at 21:05:17
big old "AHA!" to this:
>>>I don't want to do my own hard work around populating my life with supports and activities. I complain about being alone or not really knowing where my passion lies anymore - but I don't do anything about it. I hide with my books or I work all the time. Do I want my therapist to just fill up the void with his caring?<<<
that's a huge realization to come to. is it a new one?
today was out socializing w/ friend that shared a womens group long ago and we both discussed the work involved in healing that isn't focused on the past but instead on present stuff and what that shift meant/took.
must be something in the air!
it is a big job to create and sustain those things but it is possible. have experienced it firsthand as well as witnessed it in ppl, of all ages, over the years. for both of us a well attuned therapist played large role in continued encouragment for any and all support/social attempts.
we both agreed it was *so awkward*, or scary, or whatever, at first and still is at times but we both have done many many things to change that in ourselves since that group many years back.
imagine having support and activities again. no really....just try imagining it.
in the depths of depression and the darkest days of therapy never thought it would be possible yet have been taking classes here and there and dealing w/ life stuff in addition to going to dinner parties (EEK!) and casual gatherings, ballgames, gallery openings and upcoming weddings.
would have copped out on almost all those things due to inability of depression then to inability of anxiety but after working on meds/therapy for years to get to a point where there weren't any true inabilities left.......just don't wannas and you can't make mes. work w/ them perhaps?
you've done much hard work over the years you've shared here. very proud of all you've done.
so sorry you're feeling sad.
Posted by meme3842 on August 15, 2008, at 23:38:55
In reply to Feeling shame and anger, posted by DAisym on August 15, 2008, at 21:05:17
Hi, Daisy
You sound so sad right now. I'm sorry you feel this way. I know what you mean, though, by thinking that you should be able to talk yourself out of your depression. And then comparing yourself to someone like Oprah. I get in that space as well, and I find that it always makes me feel worse. Anytime you compare yourself to someone or think that you "should" feel better does the exact opposite. What I try to do when I go down that mental road, is notice it for one. And then I try to remind myself that yes, I am sad and depressed. And yes, it doesn't feel good. And you feel alone in it. But it is what it is and nothing more. Then I try to be nice to myself and have chocolate or take a bath. I realize that this may not be helpful as you were talking about abandonment depression.
meme
Posted by Lemonaide on August 15, 2008, at 23:59:35
In reply to Feeling shame and anger, posted by DAisym on August 15, 2008, at 21:05:17
I guess it would depend how you would define fine. Daisy you are so right you can't just talk yourself out of being depressed or having PTSD, I know, I have both.
You have so much stuff you have been working on in therapy, and if you need to cry, it is okay. I know you probably know that, but you can cry and still be fine too. I really think depression is talking for you right now. I learned just how debilitating it can be. It changes everything.
I think the one place you need to find that you belong, is within yourself.
You are going through some tough trauma therapy stuff right now, so please be gentle on yourself. I am not sure if it is even possible to go through trauma stuff without feeling depression and effects from PTSD. I also feel I should just snap out of it, but now after a year, I realize I just can't.
Just be who you are right now. Your T knows how to help you and deal with you however you are at the moment. Take care Daisy.
Posted by raisinb on August 16, 2008, at 10:34:55
In reply to Feeling shame and anger, posted by DAisym on August 15, 2008, at 21:05:17
Hi Daisy--
I hate it when my therapist says things like that too. Usually, I can remember that she says them because she wants me to be happy. Because she cares about me, she doesn't want me to be dependent on her forever, and she wants me to have things that she can't provide, at least not for the rest of my life.But it still stings. I want to curl up there and find everything I've been lacking. ("there"= in her lap, specifically).
Society sends us so many messages about being able to fix our depression ourselves. There's no shortage of ignorant, judgmental people out there. And we live in a culture that overall denies the validity of needs for connectedness--unless we're getting them met in very specific ways (i.e, a traditionally "perfect" family with a solid marriage and two children--never mind that this almost never exists). Happiness and self-reliance are always more acceptable than sadness or loneliness. It's normal to feel shame about your sadness, but it is not your issue alone.
Posted by Dinah on August 16, 2008, at 12:11:53
In reply to Feeling shame and anger, posted by DAisym on August 15, 2008, at 21:05:17
Again, I may be totally missing the point.
I'm not sure how he delivered it, but it doesn't seem to me that just because there may be things you can do about your loneliness doesn't mean that the loneliness is your fault.
I guess my view of things is that there is the pragmatic, and there is the blame and judgment, and there is the question of values. And while they may overlap, they are very separate things.
If you think of it as a map, it would be like you were at point A and you've determined you'd like to be at point B. How you got at point A, for this purpose, is irrelevant unless it interferes with how to get to point B. Values and judgments, for this purpose, are irrelevant except you probably wouldn't want to violate your values to get to point B. Pragmatically speaking, there's no way to achieve your goal without traveling from A to B.
I think your therapist is addressing this aspect when he asks you how you think you could reach your goal. He's asking you what steps you need to take to get where you wish to be.
The emotional question, the question of what stops you from taking those steps, the removing of barriers to take those steps, are a separate issue. Those are emotional issues, and rightly should be addressed by your therapist.
Both aspects are necessary parts of the whole.
Like with my weight. The only way I'm going to lose weight is by eating fewer calories and exercising more. There are reasons I am this weight, some my fault, some not. There are reasons I don't eat fewer calories and reasons I don't exercise more. And however legitimate those reasons are, I'm not going to lose weight unless I eat fewer calories and exercise more. I can decide the path to lower weight is too difficult and I'm going to stay where I am. That's a valid choice. I can decide I'm going to work toward a lower weight and recognize it will be a difficult path with a lot of detours. That's a valid choice too. It just isn't pragmatic to neither accept the place I am, nor to make plans to get where I want to be. It's not a question of right or wrong or being lazy or anything else. It's just a pragmatic decision.
Resolving to be better or happier may work with some people. And I know many people would be helped by the idea of a gratitude journal. I have a feeling it would backfire with me. I need more balance in my life. Resolutely turning my eyes to the positive would leave me recoiling. I need to have a bit of ungratitudes mixed with my gratitudes or I can't embrace the latter. But that's me. I pull to the middle. (Hmmm... keeping an ungratitude journal might work better for me.)
This is a very long post considering that I'm not sure I grasped anything at all.
Posted by antigua3 on August 16, 2008, at 12:29:58
In reply to Feeling shame and anger, posted by DAisym on August 15, 2008, at 21:05:17
You should cry! I'm such an advocate of crying because I can't do it.
It does sting when you feel like you're being told to move out of the nest and start trying your wings on your own. It's like our kids, when they start to move away and we are no longer the center of their universe. It hurts, but in your heart you know it's the right thing. Furthermore, when they leave home (mine is leaving this weekend for Europe!), and you've loved having them around, you still feel that awful loss that they are moving on, now matter how proud you are of them.
So, he's asking you to take your wings and just start to fly, knowing that you will be able to come back repeatedly until you're ready to fly on your own. And you don't want to leave. I understand that totally; My t and I have been back and forth on this, and each time I go a little further and don't need her for everything, but I come back again and again because I still need the encouragement, kindess and the love.
But it's hard. You may not be ready to do it yet, and if not just tell him. It does take a psychic shift and you can't just jump from A to B as Dinah suggests. I will tell you, though, it's worth the rewards, slowly but surely.
Just remember that he is there, and the nest will be there as long as you need him. He's not pushing you out, he's just giving you a gentle nudge because he wants you to start finding what will make you happier in the long term.
You are such an inspiration, and I love that while so many of us are traveling down this path, we all take our own road. It's the only way it can be.
take care of yourself, and don't beat yourself up about the depression. It exists. You can't just go away by willing it.
Now, could you make me some chocolate chip cookies? But I might eat them all.... Oh, Camp Comfort, where are you? I think we need to expand the camp to be a safe place whenever we feel we really need it. Think about it,Daisy, if there were a real Camp Comfort, you would be among friends who understand, and you would be making that move your T suggests. We could make a fortune...
antigua
Posted by Dinah on August 16, 2008, at 12:38:38
In reply to Re: Feeling shame and anger, posted by antigua3 on August 16, 2008, at 12:29:58
Definitely a good point, antigua.
Abandonment fears would be activated by a therapist encouraging one to fly. I totally overlooked that because my therapist and I have worked that out, so I can feel free to try my wings without fearing I'll be pushed out of the nest. He's totally ok with me flying however far and wide I wish, and I know the nest is always there for me afterwards. To nestle if I need to, or to share the voyages. Either way, he'll be there. He'll always be delighted to make space for me in the nest.
If he didn't make that clear, I'd firmly refuse to be budged an inch.
Posted by Looney Tunes on August 16, 2008, at 22:04:39
In reply to Re: Feeling shame and anger, posted by Dinah on August 16, 2008, at 12:38:38
I am not really sure I understood any of what I read, but a couple of thoughts:
1) Cry. Let it out. Sometimes just crying makes you feel better. (Then ice cream works well after)
2) You say you suffer from PTSD. If you have to have any label at least you have one that is not your fault. You did not cause this, someone else did. (I am assuming a person/people and not a natural disaster or war) You should hold you head high, because you survived. And then you should be VERY pissed at whoever is responsible for your PTSD. Anger turned inward = depression..it's all related..
3) Maybe your therapist is encouraging you to fly, but not away. Think of it like a baby bird. The mom pushes the baby out and the baby falls many times before it can really fly alone. But the mom is always there the first hundred times the baby bird falls. So, T wants you to do something, find something in your life besides "your books and work." He wants to be there as you try and fly and find something to make your life better.
I TOTOALLY understand. I work, I read, I hang out with my pets.....and then well....So, my old T was like "join something". Sh*t was that hard. I felt like T had not understood me at all...I hated doing things and being around people for "fun." Why was the one person who I thought understood me telling me to join something.
But I tried something. I took a first flight. I went and it turned out to be fun and I met some people like me. And best of all, T was there the whole time to encourage me and laugh at my disasterous first projects from the class (I took woodshop for women!)I dont know if any of this was the right thing in response to your post. If not, all I can then say is hang in there...
-LT
Posted by Fallsfall on August 17, 2008, at 10:10:59
In reply to Feeling shame and anger, posted by DAisym on August 15, 2008, at 21:05:17
You ARE sad and depressed because of things that were out of your control. You didn't have control of your childhood. I wish you could stop blaming yourself for your situation.
But. You do have the capacity to climb out of where you are and move forward. And no one else (even your therapist) can do this for you. You can't, however, just "wish" yourself happy. It doesn't work that way. Getting better is a process. You need to establish and strengthen new pathways in your brain. Your brain needs to learn new ways of thinking. This takes TIME, and effort. You need to be patient with yourself while your brain learns these new ways of thinking. Watching "What the Bleep do we know" helped me so much to understand this. The solution is not an Ah Ha moment. It is painstaking development of new neural pathways and then reinforcing those pathways over and over again. Choosing to see things in a more optimistic light will help to develop these new pathways. And until the pathways are strong, it will take effort to use them. But eventually, they become well worn and comfortable, and then it no longer takes effort - they become part of you.
Learning patience with this process was probably one of the most important things I have learned (and even the learning of patience followed this pattern...).
Think of walking through a meadow. The first time you walk along a (future) path, it is very difficult. The grass is very tall and hard to walk through. You can't tell where the "path" is. You feel like you are going in a random direction. The next day, you can try to take the same "path". You may be able to see evidence of your footprints from the day before, but you will need to concentrate hard to see them. You may not take exactly the route you took the day before. But if you can stay on the same path, the stalks that you broke with your feet the day before will be less in your way today, and it may be a little clearer where the path should be. The third day, the combination of the previous day's travel will make the path even clearer. But it is still hard going. If you take the same path for two weeks, it will start to be clearer where the path is. But it will take months for you to wear the path down to a nice dirt path with no vegetation. This is how the neural pathways are in your brain. You need to use them over and over to make them strong.
Please try to accept that these changes will take lots of time, but it gets easier as you go. You have already created so many important new pathways. You now know how to accept that bad things happened. You are learning to accept help and that people may care without wanting something awful in return.
You can't teleport out of the hole. You have to climb out. But as you climb higher, it gets less steep (because you have more tools).
I'm still climbing, but I am happy and enjoying life. I need to learn a lot about socializing, and about having fun. This is a long way from barely being able to walk to the table to eat a dinner that was prepared for me, and feeling suicidal. Patience is a virtue.
Love,
Falls
Posted by zenhussy on August 17, 2008, at 10:59:39
In reply to Re: Feeling shame and anger » DAisym, posted by Fallsfall on August 17, 2008, at 10:10:59
and it isn't instant nor easy. as FF put it time and effort and patience...but it is possible. and that was almost more difficult to imagine back then.....that things could and would change and that different feelings would inhabit our heads and hearts....convo w/ friend other day was so reassuring to have as we both shared these fears, thoughts, feelings, hopes, etc.
identifying and sharing are huge steps on the path of change. gentle compliments to you for all the work you're doing, have done and have had the courage to share w/ us all here.
Posted by Daisym on August 17, 2008, at 23:24:10
In reply to FF did way better job expanding on ideas in post, posted by zenhussy on August 17, 2008, at 10:59:39
It has been an interesting weekend and I've done a lot of thinking. (always dangerous, I know.) I think part of the struggle is that BEFORE therapy I was great at being optimistic - I thought I could change the world. I was the absolute picture of let it roll off - I almost never said, "why me?" or "it's not fair." I really was super self-sufficient and it didn't feel like something was missing. The depression that landed on me was extreme and foreign - a true "mid-life" crisis - but I expected to get over it a lot quicker than this.
Now I find myself saying, "this stinks" or "this is so unfair" all the time. Therapy has been important for recognizing and naming my feelings and for getting out of a very bad marriage. But somewhere along the way I seemed to have forgotten my own strengths. And I recognize very powerful feelings of not wanting to take care of my own sadness - I want my mommy (or my therapist) to come and comfort me. I want someone's attention. I can connect the dots - I recognize these as old, unmet needs. Perhaps this is another painful corner to be turned - to really know that these needs can never be met because you can't go back. And I think that this is one of those "rip the bandaid off fast" events - there is no way to gradually stop wanting my emotional needs met by my therapist, drawing it out and being rejected (not overtly but in the recognition of what he can't or won't do) is too hard. I think it actually keeps me in a place of wanting - instead of the near death and then recovery of fully facing that it is up to me now. I dread letting go of the hope that these old needs will be met, of course, but seems like it will be better in the long run.
I haven't figured out exactly how to bring this up tomorrow - but I will. I feel pretty calm tonight and I think I'm in a good place - its painful but somehow that's OK too.
I'm remembering (again) how much I learn here and how much comfort I've always found. Thank you all for this.
Daisy
Posted by Fallsfall on August 18, 2008, at 8:10:33
In reply to Thanks All, posted by Daisym on August 17, 2008, at 23:24:10
>I want someone's attention.
Yet you still struggle mightily with this. You still want to be self-sufficient, like it is a weakness to need other people. And you are picky about whose attention you want. Maybe this is about wanting to correct the past. I wish that you could try letting current people give you attention. It won't be what you are wanting, but it might be what you need. One of the challenges of this is that it won't solve the problem instantaneously, so it might feel like it isn't helping. But I think it is one of those things where you have to learn how it will help, that it will take some time to help. Can you establish relationships with current people (raising hand and waving it!!!)? Over time, these relationships may lessen your pain.
This is the end of the thread.
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