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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 10 of 10. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Daisym on May 29, 2008, at 0:16:48
There are lots of old feelings floating around for me, ones I can't quite verbalize. Why is it still so hard to put words to these memories and tell the truth? My therapist said today that he has noticed that it is really hard for me to "tell" again - I'm brushing away the stories and feelings and saying things like, "my history" instead of naming the abuse. I told him not to worry, I'm writing a lot. He was quiet and said, "I haven't seen any of your writings in a long time either."
He never pushes, it is always up to me to share stuff. But he worries that I'm too alone with it all, trapped inside my head. The tears came up and so many intense feelings - and a new question - "what happens to the stories when I'm done with therapy?" I asked him if they live on in his walls - or are they forgotten forever? He said he doesn't think he'll ever forget - that made me cry harder. At our last session, he'd talked gentle and directly to little Daisy, telling her she was really welcome in our sessions and wondering why she'd been sitting up on the ceiling again so much. It was weird and powerful and still makes me squirm.
Best line of the session: We were talking about fear of being too much and of my neediness driving everyone away - including my therapist. (Yes, this is the millionth time we've talked about this, and I said I knew it was mostly an irrational fear.) He said, "you know, you really should see someone about that. Therapy might help you face that fear..." What a smart A%%!
Posted by Dinah on May 29, 2008, at 11:41:24
In reply to Same old thing, posted by Daisym on May 29, 2008, at 0:16:48
lol. He's funny. :)
Every once in a while my therapist says with exasperation, "We've gone over this already!" Apparently he isn't quite as wonderful as yours. I always remind him that sometimes it's the thousandth repetition that finally sinks in. That's been true in the past, and will likely be true in the future. Eventually I do come to know something as true. But it takes a while for me.
I'm glad you don't have to explain that you your therapist. He seems to understand.
I suppose therapy isn't a circle, or we'd keep going round and round without getting anywhere. But maybe it's a tightly wound spiral sometimes. We keep circling and touching on the same topics. Because that's the way life is, isn't it?
I tend to have enthusiasms, and when my enthusiasm is over I think about getting rid of all the stuff associated with the enthusiasm. But I decide against it because I know that sooner or later I'm likely to enthuse on the same topic again. It tends to cycle again and again. When people in my life let me down, they rarely manage to do it in new and different ways. They let me down in the same way over and over again. And my issues in therapy are rarely new either. They too recycle. I suppose if they didn't, they wouldn't have been such deeply entrenched and hard to shake issues that require therapy.
I don't know if I'm making sense. I'm a bit groggy.
Posted by Annierose on May 29, 2008, at 19:21:24
In reply to Same old thing, posted by Daisym on May 29, 2008, at 0:16:48
The tears need to come. I think that's a good thing even though there is sadness in crying. You are learning and accepting the truth of your life. It's so darn hard and painful.
Posted by DAisym on May 29, 2008, at 20:09:19
In reply to Re: Same old thing, posted by Annierose on May 29, 2008, at 19:21:24
I took a deep breath today and told him that I think one of the reasons I've stopped talking about the abuse is because I'm having a weird response in my body. Everytime I try to talk about stuff, I have extreme fear in my stomach and what feels like arousal everywhere else. He used the word desire - I said no, I don't want sex with my mind, it feels more like a physical response. He asked me to describe the arousal - which was excruciating to do - I couldn't look at him at all. I wanted to use all the correct words I know from my training and they disappeared on me. I was left with basic stuff: tingles, wetness, erect nipples...oh, let me die now.
I know Dinah has talked about arousal in response to anxiety and I think mine is linked to fear and to a specific age state. My therapist agrees - it may be a conditioned response. He also believes that I feel safe enough to feel the stuck body memories even as I tell him that these feelings make me afraid of him. He asked specifically what I'm afraid of and it took everything I had to force out the truth - "that you'll expect sex from me at some point - and/or you'll be angry about these feelings, or disgusted and our work together will stop." Than I asked him to please not be insulted, I really do know that he won't ever hurt me.
He reassured me anyway, remind me how safe his office is and told me he wasn't disgusted or mad. But he said it is all mixed up for me - fear, arousal, needs and guilt. He wants me to start telling him when things are happening in my body as well as the feelings and thoughts that float in. He sort of indicated that I'm still really good at masking all that I'm feeling - except anxiety. I bounce my leg. Can't believe he's noticed that...I'll have to keep an eye on that.
It was one of those sessions that felt like it lasted forever, where I couldn't wait to leave I was so embarrassed and yet didn't want to leave now that I'd gathered my courage and opened this up. I don't suppose he is going to just pretend like I never told him any of this, is he?
It would help to hear how others have dealt with arousal during sessions - or even how you've talked about this subject with your therapist. What words DO you use? How much information is too much information?
Are there no end to these hard subjects?! Calgon...
Posted by Lucie Lu on May 29, 2008, at 23:39:00
In reply to And now, something new afterall - trigger, posted by DAisym on May 29, 2008, at 20:09:19
on the subject of arousal... I often find that I have been aroused during sessions, not that I feel it consciously but evidence of it afterwards (wetness - embarrassing to say!). I do find my T attractive - he is a little older than me (same age as my H), similar values and lifestyles, and he is an attractive person and of course I have affectionate feelings for him. But that is not where I'm at right now with him and vice versa. I have heard women report similar responses and I've told him that for me, closeness and sexual response are intertwined and it seemed perfectly reasonable to me but he told me, no not everyone feels that way, that for me the two are intertwined in a way that reflects my past. We haven't explored it much but I'm sure we will when I'm ready, I do have some problems in that area - like intrusive S&M fantasies - and we will go into it deeper some time but not now, we have more basic issues to work on. I was always really embarrassed to talk frankly about sex but there was one time that I really freaked out about some sexual feelings from my ACOA past and he actually came in to see me on a Saturday and we talked about it, so after that nothing really seems too far out to discuss. He's shown me that he's able to be a safe harbor for me in that area and when I'm ready, I'll take advantage of it. So I'm sure you will be able to too if you are close to your T, just don't worry, use whatever words seem comfortable to you, whether they are clinical or street :) it doesn't matter, I'm sure your T will deal with it if he's a good T and has heard it every which way, so it matters more to us than with him. Your T sounds helpful, just only go at the speed you feel comfortable, don't rush, it sounds like he'll be there. -LL
Posted by sunnydays on May 30, 2008, at 0:16:39
In reply to And now, something new afterall - trigger, posted by DAisym on May 29, 2008, at 20:09:19
Oh my gosh -- I may have to borrow your words at some point... the fear in the stomach and arousal everywhere else is EXACTLY what I feel sometimes in session - not in the past few months, but before that and it's only around certain topics, so it may come back. And it totally freaks me out and at this point my T and I are dealing with totally other (but important) stuff so it's not salient for me right now. I'm sure my T would handle it well, but I'm just not ready.
Interesting... I was just going to say that it's especially weird for me because I was never sexually abused and it doesn't happen around that topic... but then I remembered that I was sexually assaulted and that's exactly the topic it happens around. A little denial anyone?
It sounds like your T will help you handle it. And I bet he was celebrating in his head when you said that because he was so happy that you trusted him enough to tell him. Hang in there. If you can find it in you to tell him when it is happening (although I tend to get all spacey when that starts happening so I'm not sure I could articulate it), I bet he would be great about it.
Take care. I'm proud of you,
sunnydays
Posted by Dinah on May 30, 2008, at 7:53:12
In reply to And now, something new afterall - trigger, posted by DAisym on May 29, 2008, at 20:09:19
Well, I suppose you've heard from me. :)
And truly my wires are so messed up, especially since I mostly stopped having panic attacks, that my experience is clearly not the norm. It's not just therapy either. Any anxious situation, or any number of other things can cause it. And since it really isn't related to sex I barely think to notice it, much less discuss it.
But those times I have, my therapist has found it interesting. Like a new and different sort of beetle landed on his desk.
I suppose at one point or another he asked what I meant by that. And my response would be to say with some acerbity that I mean the constellation of responses one would ordinarily mean when discussing arousal. He never makes me go into more detail.
But in general when discussing sex, I use euphemisms, hand gestures, and lots of "you know"s. Or I use the least charged way of saying something. Penis, breasts, nipples, testicles, all those things I can say. But nothing overly technical, and certainly no slang. Ick. He used slang just once, early on, and apparently correctly decided it wasn't appropriate for this client.
I'm this weird combination. On the one hand, I can discuss sex in the least erotic way you could imagine. I can take all the fun out of sex, and that is in fact my normal way of speaking about it. I suppose that falls in with the self protection of my looks. But on the other hand, I discuss sex with ridiculous discomfort, lowered head, nodding or shaking my head in response to his questions, and almost completely in very roundabout euphemism and gestures. He doesn't make me put it in to words at those times, perhaps because he knows I won't, and merely asks clarifying questions when he needs to.
The only really difficult times for me were the couple of times I discussed dreams involving him. That last one, I not only hung my head down over my lap, but finger combed my hair to cover what still showed of my face. lol.
Sometimes I regret not asking more questions myself. Fairly recently he asked a clarifying question and when I answered the obvious intent in the negative, he followed up. I didn't say anything at the time, but by the next session I was bursting with curiosity. If I said no to the obvious meaning of his question, what other meaning was there? Apparently there's a gap in my education. But of course he'd forgotten.
So I suppose I have two different answers to your question? Both equally true.
Posted by raisinb on May 30, 2008, at 10:23:02
In reply to And now, something new afterall - trigger, posted by DAisym on May 29, 2008, at 20:09:19
Goodness, Daisy, I admire the fact that you were able to talk about those things at all. My therapist has tried to push me into that area, but I have refused to go there. She is just soooo suburban-conventional looking that it seems embarrassing to verbalize those things.
I usually get turned on a) when she's wearing something particularly flattering, or, more often, b) when she abruptly comes closer, emotionally--asks a hard or pointed question that gets at the heart of what I am feeling but was trying to hide, or (which is harder to figure out) when she does something that makes her more vulnerable--like cries, or uses an emotional tone of voice.
In these moments, I do fee a little fear, and an emotional jolt, like a roller-coaster excitement that goes all over my body and down my legs. Arousal is part of that, but it is a full-on emotional and physical response.
I am glad you posted this; I'd never thought about it so specifically before.
Posted by Daisym on May 30, 2008, at 22:32:11
In reply to Re: And now, something new afterall - trigger » DAisym, posted by Lucie Lu on May 29, 2008, at 23:39:00
Thank you all for sharing your own experiences. I'm not sure I could ever talk about this if I thought my arousal was due to being attracted to my therapist. I have feelings for him and sex is mixed up in them, but I've never had this kind of body response when thinking about those feelings.
I've been reading about body-flashbacks and I'm pretty sure this is at least part of what is happening. It seems like it will take a lot of work to uncouple sex and fear. I feel broken and I just want to be normal.
I'm sure it doesn't matter which words I chose to use, my therapist is OK with it. We've worked together long enough now that lots of sentences go unfinished - and obviously he is getting better at reading my body language. But from what he says and what I've read, trying to make sense of these feelings and their origins is important to healing. So I'm trying.
I think when I'm done journaling this, I should just try my hand at writing a steamy novel. Seems to me that the body sensations are all written out and written well in those kinds of books.
Posted by Lucie Lu on May 31, 2008, at 16:40:44
In reply to Re: And now, something new afterall - trigger, posted by Daisym on May 30, 2008, at 22:32:11
I forgot to add an important point, that typically I am not at all aware of feelings of arousal during sessions I only feel closer or less so, it's just when I've gotten home that I have discovered some evidence of arousal. How weird is that? I just mentally make the connection between arousal and closeness/connection because that's all I can think of to explain it.
This is the end of the thread.
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