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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 27. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by crushedout on June 16, 2007, at 11:30:57
Yes, I'm very, very angry at my ex-T. Yes, it feels good in a way. But I can tell that it's building. Wow, it took me over five years to get angry at her, but now that I am, watch out! I am one of the most vindictive, mean people I have ever known. Or tenacious? There are positive spins I could put on this, too. It really doesn't feel that bad. I mean, I feel pretty comfortable with anger, so, there's a big part of me that just....I don't think "enjoy" is exactly the right word, but I was going to say "enjoys this."All I can say is, she better freakin' watch out. I mean, if she blogs about our exchange, she is going to be really sorry. I will file a complaint with the licensing board so fast that her head will spin. I'm afraid there may be a lot of other things she could blog about that might goad me into some sort of action also. For example, I could see her blogging about something that gets under my skin, I'll comment on it (nonanonymously now, of course), and then she might respond or not publish my comment, or who knows what she might do to tick me off? Right now I have a hair-trigger temper when it comes to her.
I'm not posting for feedback, although I welcome any. I'm just expressing myself. I feel okay about all of this. I am slightly afraid of what I'm capable of doing, but I don't think I'll do anything *truly* stupid. I do, after all, have a fairly effective superego. Or fear of going to jail. Or whatever you call that.
Posted by Nathan_Arizona on June 16, 2007, at 11:44:42
In reply to I'm angry, posted by crushedout on June 16, 2007, at 11:30:57
yeah, jail would suck and if you let her put you there - well, then she would ultimately win.
I understand your anger, and know that you can cope with it without doing something outrageous.
Why do you think it took you five years to get this angry with her?
I mean why now?
Take care
Posted by crushedout on June 16, 2007, at 13:12:19
In reply to Re: I'm angry, posted by Nathan_Arizona on June 16, 2007, at 11:44:42
thanks. it's a great question but i'm not sure why it took me so long. i think it's hard to love someone so much and also allow yourself to feel so angry at them, especially for some reason in this particular situation. so maybe i had to realize i didn't love her, or stop loving her, before i could allow myself to feel this.that's just a guess.
> yeah, jail would suck and if you let her put you there - well, then she would ultimately win.
>
> I understand your anger, and know that you can cope with it without doing something outrageous.
>
> Why do you think it took you five years to get this angry with her?
>
> I mean why now?
>
> Take care
>
>
Posted by crushedout on June 16, 2007, at 13:15:53
In reply to Re: I'm angry » Nathan_Arizona, posted by crushedout on June 16, 2007, at 13:12:19
finding her blog helped me to stop idealizing her completely--because it kind of showed me who she really was in such a thorough way, and i realized i didn't even like who she was. nothing was left to my imagination.now why did i google her now and find her blog? another good question. i guess i was trying to shake whatever skeletons were still in my closet because of her. i'm trying to get closure, so that i can move on and have a healthy, "real" relationship in my life. my current T, with whom i have a healthy, nonreal (i.e., therapeutic only) relationship with, has helped me get to the point where i feel safe doing this?
again, i'm just guessing, but it's starting to sound convincing, so i may start to believe these theories.
Posted by Phillipa on June 16, 2007, at 17:53:02
In reply to and..., posted by crushedout on June 16, 2007, at 13:15:53
Give it some time and angry will dies down. And remember love is close to hate. So you're maybe trying to sort things out and it will take time. Give yourself that time. Love Phillipa
Posted by OzLand on June 16, 2007, at 22:03:39
In reply to I'm angry, posted by crushedout on June 16, 2007, at 11:30:57
Why would she blog about you? That doesn't sound right. Does you blog about her current patients as well??
Posted by crushedout on June 16, 2007, at 22:45:51
In reply to Re: I'm angry » crushedout, posted by OzLand on June 16, 2007, at 22:03:39
Yes, she's blogged about current patients. I asked her once if she got their permission and she ignored my question. She blogged about my anonymous comments before she knew they were from me, but now that she knows it's an ex-patient, I would hope she would think to be more discreet. We'll see.
Posted by muffled on June 17, 2007, at 9:44:52
In reply to She has » OzLand, posted by crushedout on June 16, 2007, at 22:45:51
> Yes, she's blogged about current patients. I asked her once if she got their permission and she ignored my question. She blogged about my anonymous comments before she knew they were from me, but now that she knows it's an ex-patient, I would hope she would think to be more discreet. We'll see.
**Holy sh*t, her name is on the blog?
What does she say about patients? Does she SAY they are current patients?
Seems to me this IS reportable. You could always report it anonymously couldn't you?
Or mebbe somehow post it somewhere so other patients can see, so they can report it?
Can't blogs be secure so not everybody can read them?
Have you posted a link to this blog on babble yet?
Mebbe you should, if its not a private blog.
Its all so sad, all round. T's supposed to help not harm :-(
Take care,
Muffled
Posted by crushedout on June 17, 2007, at 22:08:39
In reply to Re: She has :-( » crushedout, posted by muffled on June 17, 2007, at 9:44:52
hi muff,
her full real name isn't on her blog (she abbreviates it) but her picture is (so she is easily recognized) and if you google her, you quickly find the blog.
she used stuff that was going on with her her patients as examples of something in one entry. yes, she says they are current patients, and she says she changed their names, but she doesn't say whether she asked or got their permission.
i've heard/read anonymous reports are not generally taken that seriously. i don't really think i have standing to report her patients' complaints, esp. since I don't know whether she got their permission. that would make all the difference, i should think.
i haven't posted a link to the blog on babble--i've thought about it, but why give her the free publicity? then again, if i thought we could all swarm down on her and shut her down, i'd do it. :)
Posted by OzLand on June 17, 2007, at 23:24:17
In reply to Re: She has :-( » muffled, posted by crushedout on June 17, 2007, at 22:08:39
This definitely sounds like an ethics violation. I'm a psychologist, and I think you should report her to the licensing board. I would love to see her blog, and then I could tell you for sure if she is doing something unethical.
Posted by gardenergirl on June 18, 2007, at 8:23:08
In reply to Re: She has :-( » muffled, posted by crushedout on June 17, 2007, at 22:08:39
You don't have to know all the details or even be absolutely sure in order to make a complaint. It's up to the board to investigate. My guess is they would be very interested in her blog, at least posts involving patients.
And I'm with ozland, I'd love to see it, too.
gg
Posted by crushedout on June 18, 2007, at 9:53:07
In reply to Re: She has :-( » crushedout, posted by gardenergirl on June 18, 2007, at 8:23:08
Yes, that's true. There is really only one post that directly talks about her patients' lives and it's old. Maybe she realized that was a dumb idea, and stopped doing it. But it's still up there.Lots of posts talk about psychotherapy theory.
If I were going to file a complaint, though, I think I have a much better case than her blog: I have what she did with me when I was in therapy with her. The worst thing was that she made me a mix CD with romantic songs on it. But she also repeatedly told me she was attracted to me, in ways that I think she would have a hard time justifying as therapeutic. And much more.
The blog itself...well, I think it *should* be considered unethical, but I don't know if the board would agree. You guys will be able to tell that better than I.
Posted by crushedout on June 18, 2007, at 16:18:19
In reply to Re: She has :-( » gardenergirl, posted by crushedout on June 18, 2007, at 9:53:07
Ouch. Now *this* hurts.I had therapy today. It was my first session since ex-T and I communicated nonanonymously. So I was just filling my T in on what had been going on within me during and after this interchange. I told her about how angry I was feeling and how I was toying with the idea of filing a complaint with the licensing board. As I was talking she grew silent and got a weird look on her face so for some reason I asked her what she was thinking.
She admitted to me something she should not have. I was not surprised that this went through her head but I was surprised that she told me. She said that as my current therapist, her first thought was, "Am I next?"
Then she went on to talk about what am I getting out of this, why now, etc. etc. but at that point I could not get past her "Am I next" question. It hurt very badly. She apologized repeatedly for burdening me with that thought, which she realized she should not have told me. But she also at one point defended my ex-T saying, "it's not a crime to make someone a CD!" I couldn't believe what I was hearing. I said I never said it was a crime, but that the CD was not just any CD, and the fact that it wasn't a crime doesn't make it ethical. She looked sort of ashamed of herself. She got very apologetic.
She said stuff like, "Well we are of course going to have 'fights' also and it's natural that you may get mad at me. For example, this may be our first 'fight.'" We laughed but I was really upset the whole rest of the session. I kept explaining to her all the reasons why that hurt. She understood, she said she could deal with her feelings on her own and support me etc. etc.
I'm not explaining this well. I'm at work and I have to work but this threw me. I was doing well when I walked in, happy about all the developments with my ex-T--now I feel abandoned and hurt by the current one. But I also feel like we'll work it out. It's ironic she messed up at that moment. Sometimes people are so oddly self-destructive. Nobody's perfect, that's for darn sure.
I still think she's a wonderful T. (But then again, I thought ex-T was, too. What the heck do I know? :( )
Posted by sunnydays on June 18, 2007, at 17:08:40
In reply to My current T messed up today, posted by crushedout on June 18, 2007, at 16:18:19
Is it at all possible you misinterpreted what your ex-T meant by making you the CD? For example, I would think that it would be fine for my T to make me a CD - I'm not sure I see that as unethical, even if they were romantic. That in itself could be easily defended as being calming songs or something.
But I'm just curious as to if it's possible you misinterpreted the whole thing -- is it possible she really was trying to be therapeutic? I mean, my current T has told me I'm pretty and things like that, but it's very clear to me that he's not looking to extend our relationship or anything. I mean, I think you've said she's married, so I'm wondering why she would have been trying to seduce you, if that's what she was trying to do.
I'm not saying that you did misinterpret - I have no way of knowing. But you are so angry at your other T that I can see why your current T would be worried about being next. I'm not even sure whether she shouldn't have told you that. It seems like a situation that could seem very threatening to many Ts, and it seems like many Ts might terminate a client if they felt in danger of being reported. It's something I would think would be appropriate for you to be aware of, in case it seems like your T was hesitant to fully endorse your actions towards your ex-t. Then you might understand where that was coming from.
Be very clear with what you are expecting if you report your ex-T. It probably won't ruin her life, although it might be upsetting for a while. She probably won't lose her license or even be put on probation. They may never even respond to you. Just be careful so you aren't hurt if nothing happens.
sunnydays
Posted by crushedout on June 18, 2007, at 17:14:35
In reply to Re: My current T messed up today » crushedout, posted by sunnydays on June 18, 2007, at 17:08:40
sunnydays,
what was it about my post that made you think i wanted to be challenged? i feel like my one last support sort of fell out from under me. i don't feel up to trying to convince you (also!) that my ex-T was inappropriate. i'm sorry. if you want, you can read the archives. it started about four years ago.
crushed
Posted by sunnydays on June 18, 2007, at 17:21:56
In reply to Re: My current T messed up today » sunnydays, posted by crushedout on June 18, 2007, at 17:14:35
I'm sorry. You don't have to convince me. I guess I just really couldn't tell from your previous post that you were upset. Words can be so hard to convey tone of voice sometimes. I'm sorry if I didn't support you and that's what you needed.
sunnydays
Posted by crushedout on June 18, 2007, at 17:23:42
In reply to Re: My current T messed up today » crushedout, posted by sunnydays on June 18, 2007, at 17:08:40
i do not mean to be rude.my ex-T's CD to me had very inappropriate songs on it. but it was also in a context which was inappropriate and it's too long a story for me to get into right now.
if you or my current T heard the CD, i'm sure you would agree with me. i don't really want to have to convince anyone of this right now though.
in any event, that is only one of the unethical things she did. and i don't have any delusions about what i expect to happen. i just want her to be answerable. i haven't decided what i'm going to do.
i totally disagree that it was appropriate for my current t to share her fears with me. that put me in an awful position. and there is nothing unusual about my anger. as i explained to her, i have had many previous ongoing relationships with therapists--none of them ever ended badly.
of course it's natural for anyone to worry in her position--we are all selfish after all. but that doesn't make it right for me to have to worry about that on top of everything else.
Posted by crushedout on June 18, 2007, at 17:26:09
In reply to Re: My current T messed up today » crushedout, posted by sunnydays on June 18, 2007, at 17:21:56
Thank you for the apology.But how was I not clear about being upset? "Ouch. This hurts," I think was how it started. and then it ended with an :(
i'm really just asking because this seems to be an ongoing problem for me--maybe i am not conveying upsetness well enough?
i am kind of devastated.
Posted by raisinb on June 18, 2007, at 21:26:20
In reply to My current T messed up today, posted by crushedout on June 18, 2007, at 16:18:19
That's a terrible thing to say, and not very fair to you. I'm glad you can see it as *her* messing up, not a statement about who *you* are. I'd be very hurt.
Posted by OzLand on June 18, 2007, at 23:17:47
In reply to Re: She has :-( » gardenergirl, posted by crushedout on June 18, 2007, at 9:53:07
I am so sorry to here your old therapist was engaging in crossing boundaries with you. If you have any of the stuff she sent you, I am sure the licensing board would be interested.
Posted by OzLand on June 18, 2007, at 23:25:41
In reply to My current T messed up today, posted by crushedout on June 18, 2007, at 16:18:19
I am really shocked that your new therapist said this to you. She should have said nothing even if she wondered about the whole thing. She does not know you well enough, and even if she did, this would not be something in my mind to say to a patient. Even if I wondered if something was a distortion because I did not know the patient well enough at that point, I would never say that. Besides, it is how you experienced the interchanges that is important. And if it did not feel right, then it wasn't right. I am just really shocked at the response of your new therapist.
Sorry, but I have to go to bed now; I have to get up at 4:15 a.m. to get ready for my 6:30 a.m. therapy appt. with my "new" therapist. Later.
Posted by twinleaf on June 19, 2007, at 7:51:17
In reply to My current T messed up today, posted by crushedout on June 18, 2007, at 16:18:19
She did make a mistake, and it's clear, and natural, that you would feel hurt and abandonned. Still, she did recognize right away that it was a mistake, and she took responsibility for it. Also. her subsequent comments all seem pointed towards continuing the relationship in a good and positive manner, and working out whatever feelings arise in both you and her- with her hopefully handliing her own better in the future! I think a lot of therapy is about things like this- with "rupture and repair" occurring all the time. It's when repair doesn't occur, because of therapist counter-transferences, that therapy fails.
Not to highjack your thread, but I feel certain that unexamined counter-tranference accounted for the extremely painful collapse of my own previous therapy. The new therapist has already shown that he is very interested in all of my reactions to him; he will often say things like, "I'm glad you told me how you felt when I said that. I didn't have that thought (that he, too might want to get rid of me- or many other anxious thoughts). but now that I know, we can talk about it more freely. All of this helps a lot.
Your present T sounds like she is capable of doing that; she didn't sound defensive- just apologetic. It might have been better, ideally, for her to have been less apologetic, after acknowledging her error, and to have spent more time trying to really hear you. But, if she didn't make it this time, quite, it sounds like she will in the future. Overal, she's been great that way, hasn't she?
Posted by crushedout on June 19, 2007, at 9:10:12
In reply to Re: She has :-( » crushedout, posted by OzLand on June 18, 2007, at 23:17:47
yes, i have the cd she made me and the emails she wrote to me.
Posted by crushedout on June 19, 2007, at 9:15:59
In reply to Re: My current T messed up today » crushedout, posted by twinleaf on June 19, 2007, at 7:51:17
yes, she has been great and i think we can repair this. i think all Ts make mistakes and it's just a matter of degree and what you do with your mistakes. she told me she had confidence that she could handle this well despite her error, and i have confidence in her, too. we will work this out.in the meantime, it just hurts. i do feel abandoned and hurt and blamed. and i think all of my feelings are understandable. i'm sure she feels very badly about her mistake and will learn from it.
she was kind of able to focus on me for the rest of the session, in between her apologies and admissions of having messed up. they are human, therapists.
i guess it's especially hard to deal with mistakes like these after what i went through with the last one. i'm extra-sensitive to boundaries.
thanks for your thoughtful post, twinleaf.
> She did make a mistake, and it's clear, and natural, that you would feel hurt and abandonned. Still, she did recognize right away that it was a mistake, and she took responsibility for it. Also. her subsequent comments all seem pointed towards continuing the relationship in a good and positive manner, and working out whatever feelings arise in both you and her- with her hopefully handliing her own better in the future! I think a lot of therapy is about things like this- with "rupture and repair" occurring all the time. It's when repair doesn't occur, because of therapist counter-transferences, that therapy fails.
>
> Not to highjack your thread, but I feel certain that unexamined counter-tranference accounted for the extremely painful collapse of my own previous therapy. The new therapist has already shown that he is very interested in all of my reactions to him; he will often say things like, "I'm glad you told me how you felt when I said that. I didn't have that thought (that he, too might want to get rid of me- or many other anxious thoughts). but now that I know, we can talk about it more freely. All of this helps a lot.
>
> Your present T sounds like she is capable of doing that; she didn't sound defensive- just apologetic. It might have been better, ideally, for her to have been less apologetic, after acknowledging her error, and to have spent more time trying to really hear you. But, if she didn't make it this time, quite, it sounds like she will in the future. Overal, she's been great that way, hasn't she?
Posted by dispatcher on June 19, 2007, at 12:18:15
In reply to I'm angry, posted by crushedout on June 16, 2007, at 11:30:57
>
> Yes, I'm very, very angry at my ex-T. Yes, it feels good in a way. But I can tell that it's building. Wow, it took me over five years to get angry at her, but now that I am, watch out! I am one of the most vindictive, mean people I have ever known. Or tenacious? There are positive spins I could put on this, too. It really doesn't feel that bad. I mean, I feel pretty comfortable with anger, so, there's a big part of me that just....I don't think "enjoy" is exactly the right word, but I was going to say "enjoys this."
>
> All I can say is, she better freakin' watch out. I mean, if she blogs about our exchange, she is going to be really sorry. I will file a complaint with the licensing board so fast that her head will spin. I'm afraid there may be a lot of other things she could blog about that might goad me into some sort of action also. For example, I could see her blogging about something that gets under my skin, I'll comment on it (nonanonymously now, of course), and then she might respond or not publish my comment, or who knows what she might do to tick me off? Right now I have a hair-trigger temper when it comes to her.
>
> I'm not posting for feedback, although I welcome any. I'm just expressing myself. I feel okay about all of this. I am slightly afraid of what I'm capable of doing, but I don't think I'll do anything *truly* stupid. I do, after all, have a fairly effective superego. Or fear of going to jail. Or whatever you call that.I think your current T was just being honest. Everyone wants honesty in therapy. Sometimes the honest is not always the positive.
I think the way she feels ("am I next") is understandable too. Just like your anger. Feelings aren't right or wrong - they just are.
Are you really the most mean and vindictive person you know though? Are you happy with that statement about yourself?
I find that feelings and actions in general ALWAYS have a boomerang effect - they'll come back to you, good or bad, in the end.
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