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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 15 to 39 of 39. Go back in thread:
Posted by crushedout on April 19, 2007, at 14:23:00
In reply to :-) (nm) » 10derHeart, posted by crushedout on April 19, 2007, at 13:38:13
OK, I saw my T and unloaded all the craziness of the past 24 hours which has had me reeling. A lot of it has nothing to do with the blog but the blog is a piece of the insanity.
I've decided not to be paranoid because I have very little to be ashamed of. My ex-T has a lot to be ashamed of, and I think anyone who thoroughly reads the archives on this site would probably agree. Except her because she seems to have a way of justifying all of her behavior.
The only thing I'm really ashamed of doing is posting a comment on her blog anonymously which was purely provocative and not productive. I was responding to a piece of a post in which she reiterated something she told me many times in our sessions to justify her behavior toward me: that whenever she did something untherapeutic, that just showed me that she was a flawed person and that the world wasn't centered around me so it taught be to "understand multiple perspectives."
This seems like such a weak justification (I mean, does it justify *any* bad behavior on the part of the therapist? she draws no lines about what is going too far) that it's not even worth addressing. But yesterday it made me so mad that I lashed out and told her she was a danger to her patients and that I pity them.
I was pitying myself of course, in part, but not so much since I managed to "break free" of her years ago (although obviously I am not still free yet) by leaving her and getting a T with boundaries. What about the poor patients who don't find the strength to do that? I do pity them if they are out there, because God knows it was hard for me to leave her.
Anyway, this sparked an entire new post by her about my "hate mail" and then even her husband chimed in with a comment, declaring that I was like a hit and run driver except I was the only one who got hit and then I ran to hide in a hole.
How twisted is this?
I can't get over how twisted it is. It's all sort of unreal. I am putting it all out there because even if she figures out what happened and figures out who I am and reads all the archives, so what? Good. She should know what effect she has on her patients and maybe that's the best way for her to understand it: to "overhear" the conversations I had with all of you, which for the most part were very supportive and understanding and productive.
I did get free after all. I mean, I did develop a new relationship with a new T whom I can trust.
Let her read it.
The truth is she probably never will and I am still left with wanting to get this off my chest. Wanting to tell her to her face just how destructive her actions have been. I think she has no idea. The truth is that I don't hate her, really, at all. I almost feel really sorry for her at this point because she's so clearly damaged goods.
I don't know what I will do next. My T thinks it's all up to me--she thinks my ex-T and her husband are so screwy that they would probably have me over for dinner if I pursued it, and God knows what else. But what do I want out of this? That's what she asked me. And I'm really not sure yet. I know I won't go over there for dinner, but I do consider a face-to-face meeting with the ex-T, or a letter, or an email, just letting her know what really happened, why I left, and why what she is doing is dangerous.
Because it really is.
Posted by gardenergirl on April 19, 2007, at 16:28:08
In reply to post-therapy follow-up, posted by crushedout on April 19, 2007, at 14:23:00
Crushed! I was just thinking about you when I logged in just now. Your name is still on my yahoo IM list, and I saw it and wondered how you were. Freaky?
And what you describe is freaky, too, especially her response and her husband's response. Even more evidence of a real boundary problem which can and does cause real damage to clients.
I'm glad to hear you and your T have a good relationship. You so deserve that after all you went through before. And you seem pretty balanced about all this compared to a few years ago, which is great to see. :)
I agree with your T that it's in your hands and up to you what you do with this info. I totally understand wanting to talk to your ex-T and tell her about all the wrongs and what effect it had. I totally get that, and I've done it with my ex-pdoc. I think it's a toss-up whether that would wind up being satisfactory, though. It takes an awful lot of mental and emotional energy to do it. I had everything all written down, which helped, but it took awhile to do that. And I was getting really obsessed about it. In my case, I knew that talking to her would help me stop obsessing, which was a good thing. That was basically my goal in talking to her, but of course I secretly wished she would say, "Gee, you're right. I have treated you badly. Gosh, I'll have to really work hard to improve" yada yada yada. That was a big fat pipe dream with pretty much no chance of coming true. So if I had talked to her with that in mind, or maybe with the goal of getting her to react at all, then talking to her probably wouldn't have been a good idea. As it turned out, I did stop obsessing, I realized she truly was clueless about what I needed and how I was doing, and I was pretty much done with it after that. Well, except for the occasional joke about some of her more ridiculous lines, but hey...what can you do?
Okay, enough about me, but I hope hearing about my experience helps you in some way. It's really good to see you.
namaste
gg
Posted by crushedout on April 19, 2007, at 17:21:32
In reply to Re: post-therapy follow-up » crushedout, posted by gardenergirl on April 19, 2007, at 16:28:08
GG!!! that *is* freaky. i have missed you. i'm so pleased that you thought of me.
your advice is very helpful. it reminds me that whatever i do, i have to keep my expectations of her very low and guard against disappointment.
but yeah, isn't that the freakiest sh*t how i ended up communicating with her (and her husband!!!!) in an indirect, anonymous way. and they are trying to provoke me into responding again. she asks me in her blog ("ye anonymous poster") why i think she's dangerous. and her husband accuses me of insulting her without backing it up with arguments.
I'm tempted to tell him he has a sexual predator for a wife but that may be overstating things a bit.
Can you tell i'm still dealing with some anger?
Posted by crushedout on April 19, 2007, at 17:58:37
In reply to Re: post-therapy follow-up » gardenergirl, posted by crushedout on April 19, 2007, at 17:21:32
is chiming in now, too, to defend her. This is really too weird. Talk about no boundaries at all. I'm getting to know her entire family firsthand.What have I done?
Posted by pegasus on April 19, 2007, at 22:02:23
In reply to Her mother, posted by crushedout on April 19, 2007, at 17:58:37
Ok, I'm sorry, that is just beyond the pale. She is being very irresponsible as a therapist. Bad enough that she has her own blog, but to talk about her clients (identified or not), and let her husband and mother post defenses of her . . . What on earth does she think she's doing? Is she going to invite her husband and mother into her sessions next?
On another note, it's good to see you here, crushedout. I hope you're doing well aside from this.
I hope you're strong enough to let it go, and not be provoked into responding. I would't be. It's great that you've talked it over with your T. Hang in there.
peg
Posted by michellemybell on April 19, 2007, at 22:51:12
In reply to post-therapy follow-up, posted by crushedout on April 19, 2007, at 14:23:00
WOW. You know..3 years ago a therapist ended the relationship with me because we had boundary issues, which were blamed on my of course. I would tell her she is inconsistant, and she would say "you are too, so it doesn't matter". She would tell me how she talks about me to her husband, and we would always email eachother, but then she would get mad at me for calling her or being needy. Eventually I became preoccupied with her, and we both didnt want to end treatment, so the clinic supervisor did. I was so disraught. And now, I CANT believe how I thought it was mostly my fault, and how i thought i couldnt live without her, and how i didnt know what an appropriate and caring therapist does. Well I was lucky enough to meet a great therapist who is calm, intelligent, caring, and had appropriate boundaries. And the only reason I stopped seeing him is because is internship was over. And our seperation went very smoothly, i remember telling him a month later over the phone, that it was the first "good"bye I had in a way. I can't believe how different my life is now, and was so lucky to get out the first therapy relationship alive! And so are you! Of course our experiences are different, but the things you said about her in this one post reminded me so much of her. I would have a very difficult time dealing with a blog from a therapist..i dont know any other therapist who does? However, this first therapist I had, loves the spot light, being on talk shows, dancing, singing opera, being known as the "favorite human sexuality" professor on campus. And about twice a year, it hurts to say, I still do look her up. But then I get to talk about it with a great therapist, and my esteem is better, and I realized that my first therapist doesnt reflect on things much, is too 'over the top' and self involved to haved cared appropriately for me in treatment, and has little insight. I think I used to confuse her passion and narccism, with care and interest. What your ex-t is doing, is so so so sad, but no matter how pathetic we may say her, it still hurts. I guess the goal is have support, to realize why you left, to keep away, and to avoid that sometimes great temptation to go back to her, or to deflate her tires. I did something similar to your 'hate mail' 2 years ago, by writing something negative about her on a site. well..since she is so 'interesting and popular' she got her students to stand up for her. I know she still cares about me, and thinks about me, and probably feels very guilty. What helps me is knowing she feels guilty at those times when I pass through her mind. Your relationship with you ex t has different elements, but i guess there has to be one or two thoughts that keep you grounded at these times..like finding the blog. If I found her blog 2 years ago I probably would have something similar to a panic attack, and be mia for a week. I think your doing great, and I'm glad you and your knew T are a good match! I've actually read some of your posts (perhaps) years ago, but can not recall that well, since this was a time where i was depressed and either in a rainstorm or a fog(i mean, i was stilling seeing her!), and I was always interested in reading what you wrote. And even in your silence or few words I was interested in how you were doing. I'm more or a 'lurker'--i think? I dont really post because i usually only used to come to this site when I was very very depressed. Maybe I'll post more, but I feel like I post in one long fragmented piece of work with many typos. And sometimes I find it hard to believe people will be interested. Sigh. I look forward to hearing about you!
Posted by gazo on April 20, 2007, at 8:35:32
In reply to post-therapy follow-up, posted by crushedout on April 19, 2007, at 14:23:00
well, considering the effect she had on you, even now, i would recommend the letter approach... without a return address. Specifically request she not contact you and say that would be damaging. Ethically she would be bound... and you could demonstrate that to a licensing body should she pursue it.
a letter would allow you to say what you need to without having to hear the "yeah but" from her. If she had a powerful infuence over you she would be able to twist you again.
write it, discuss it with you T and then either send it or burn it. Either way... get it out of your heart. Externalize it in whatever way is safest for you.
even write about it just for yourself.. a version in which you can get mad, swear and say whatever you wish you could... but do that one just for you to help work through the anger.
either way... do what you need to find peace and move on. Don't give too much of your soul to this woman again.
much love and peace
Posted by crushedout on April 20, 2007, at 16:15:24
In reply to Re: post-therapy follow-up [a relation], posted by michellemybell on April 19, 2007, at 22:51:12
wow that was an incredible post. it sounds sooooo weirdly similar to my experience with this ex-T (the one with the blog) except for the blog part.
i'll write more soon. you should keep writing. you have a lot of good things to say.
a few carriage returns and you're in perfect shape!!!!!! (it's just hard to read huge paragraphs for me but yours was well worth it :)
Posted by crushedout on April 20, 2007, at 16:42:42
In reply to Re: Her mother » crushedout, posted by pegasus on April 19, 2007, at 22:02:23
Hi pegasus! great seeing you.
in her defense, she doesn't know that my comment was from an ex-patient--i left it anonymously.
but it's so easy for her patients to find her blog and it is so intimate. it contains so much information that would mess with my head if i were her patient. i mean, it's messing with my head now, so i can only imagine if i was still with her. then again, maybe not all patients are obsessed with and google their Ts? enough do that it seems unethical to have the blog.
last night i wrote out a response to the attacks from the three of them. I edited it for quite awhile, carefully choosing my words. Then, just as i was reading it over before I hit "post," my computer of 6 years made a weird noise and the screen went screwy for a second and then blank. it was dead. utterly unrevivably dead.
is that a sign from god or what?
i bought a new computer today which I'm using right now. I think it's better i don't engage. why give her the satisfaction? it was obviously a rush for her to get my comment since she made such a big deal about.
> Ok, I'm sorry, that is just beyond the pale. She is being very irresponsible as a therapist. Bad enough that she has her own blog, but to talk about her clients (identified or not), and let her husband and mother post defenses of her . . . What on earth does she think she's doing? Is she going to invite her husband and mother into her sessions next?
>
> On another note, it's good to see you here, crushedout. I hope you're doing well aside from this.
>
> I hope you're strong enough to let it go, and not be provoked into responding. I would't be. It's great that you've talked it over with your T. Hang in there.
>
> peg
>
>
Posted by crushedout on April 20, 2007, at 18:58:00
In reply to Re: post-therapy follow-up » crushedout, posted by gazo on April 20, 2007, at 8:35:32
> Don't give too much of your soul to this woman again.yeah, seriously. nicely put. i won't.
Posted by pegasus on April 21, 2007, at 13:21:26
In reply to Re: Her mother » pegasus, posted by crushedout on April 20, 2007, at 16:42:42
Hey, I'm glad you remember me. I always read all of your posts, although I know I didn't usually post much myself. I'm always frustrated by my lack of time for that. It truly is good to see you posting again.
And, oh my, yes, I think you've had a message straight from the almighty on this one. :) I'm sorry about the loss of your computer. And your carefully edited post. I know how frustrating that kind of thing can be.
You know, I bet you've already given her something to think about anyway, even without your details. I can't imagine that anyone who is interested enough in the internal workings of a mind to become a T wouldn't become even a tiny bit self-reflective after receiving such a negative response. Even though obviously she's choosing to be reactive initially. I don't think you would necessarily need to say any more to get a little bit of doubt going in her mind.
In fact, I would guess that if you gave her more, she'd probably just go into defense mode again (or get her husband or mother to do it for her), and her defenses would be able to take on a more specific form. Which isn't going to help you or her.
much luck with whatever you do.
peg
Posted by crushedout on April 21, 2007, at 13:31:03
In reply to Re: Her mother, posted by pegasus on April 21, 2007, at 13:21:26
I love this thoughtful post and agree with everything you say. Thanks, peg.I'm going to sit back and reflect on all this and try not to act impulsively. I think you are so right that I may have planted a seed in her brain and maybe that's enough and I can move on.
I have to see.
crushed
> Hey, I'm glad you remember me. I always read all of your posts, although I know I didn't usually post much myself. I'm always frustrated by my lack of time for that. It truly is good to see you posting again.
>
> And, oh my, yes, I think you've had a message straight from the almighty on this one. :) I'm sorry about the loss of your computer. And your carefully edited post. I know how frustrating that kind of thing can be.
>
> You know, I bet you've already given her something to think about anyway, even without your details. I can't imagine that anyone who is interested enough in the internal workings of a mind to become a T wouldn't become even a tiny bit self-reflective after receiving such a negative response. Even though obviously she's choosing to be reactive initially. I don't think you would necessarily need to say any more to get a little bit of doubt going in her mind.
>
> In fact, I would guess that if you gave her more, she'd probably just go into defense mode again (or get her husband or mother to do it for her), and her defenses would be able to take on a more specific form. Which isn't going to help you or her.
>
> much luck with whatever you do.
>
> peg
Posted by michellemybell on April 21, 2007, at 18:37:28
In reply to Re: post-therapy follow-up [a relation] » michellemybell, posted by crushedout on April 20, 2007, at 16:15:24
Thanks :)
Yeah it is pretty similar I think in ways.
I just found out what carraige returns are! lol. Yeah, I'll add a few next time. :)
Posted by crushedout on April 21, 2007, at 18:41:46
In reply to Re: Her mother, posted by crushedout on April 21, 2007, at 13:31:03
obsessively checking her blog.
I'm being crazy. I don't know why I'm doing this to myself, what it's doing for me. It can't just be that I'm bored.
She's such a loser. Maybe it's just sort of reassuring in a way to see how nuts she is. But then I also feel dumb for liking her.
Posted by michellemybell on April 21, 2007, at 19:00:44
In reply to I can't stop, posted by crushedout on April 21, 2007, at 18:41:46
That's hard..really hard to deal with. Since you're already looking at it, can I see the link? If you want to send it, my email is mythunderstandin@aol.com. I can't remember, are we allowed to post email adresses, or do people send it through these names, and it gets fowarded?
I never had an altercation with bob, but if he happens to see this, or whoever checks this..lets me know..or warn be instead of suspending me like I see happens here for other things. Thanks :)
Posted by Fallsfall on April 22, 2007, at 9:47:52
In reply to I can't stop, posted by crushedout on April 21, 2007, at 18:41:46
Isn't it amazing how they can still have such control over us? You are seeing this very rationally. Her blog is completely out of line. I suppose that some case (a very strange one) could be made for her right to post about herself. But she has NO right to post about her patients. And it is not helpful to her patients for her to post about herself. I would think that it would be an ethical violation (the kind that she could be censored for).
I understand your need to let her know how she hurt you. But she isn't going to learn from it. She has proven that she can rationalize whatever she does, and she will continue to do that. And she has her husband and mother helping her out! I think that is what has been most frustrating for me - believing that my old therapist would not learn from what happened with me. I still think about her, but I don't want to see her anymore. Remember, I started this a bit before you did - there is hope for the future.
The last time I saw my pdoc (whose office is across the hall from hers), he asked about what went wrong with my therapy with her. I was able to tell him quite clearly. So now, at least, I feel like the information is out there, in a place where if she wanted to access it she could. Will he ever tell her what I said? Probably not unless she asks him. But maybe if he sees someone else's therapy going down the shoot, he will be able to say something helpful to her and maybe she will listen. I got enough closure that I'm going to see my pdoc one last time and then have my GP prescribe my anti-depressants. I don't "need" that group anymore. There is hope.
I'm so glad that you can talk to your current therapist about this blog. That is so important.
It would be great if you could not go there. Can you limit yourself - once a day? Can you look at NOT going there as a way to treat yourself?
She will probably never understand what she did to you. That is her loss. She could grow if she knew. But the same characteristics that led her to provide the type of therapy that she did are the reasons she will not understand what she did.
Protect yourself. You are worth it.
Posted by crushedout on April 22, 2007, at 14:23:24
In reply to Re: I can't stop, posted by Fallsfall on April 22, 2007, at 9:47:52
Falls,It is so nice to see you again. I love how thoughtfully you write. You make so many good points.
I basically can't decide whether I think you're right. I mean, about whether it's possible she can learn from this. You're probably right. Her defenses won't allow her to see what she's really done.
But I keep thinking about something she said to me sort of towards the end. One of the many very inappropriate pieces of information she gave to me about herself. She said that one of her biggest fears was that I would leave her and then get a new therapist and tell that therapist what a disaster she was.
OK, so now I think I'm just being vindictive, but wouldn't it be satisfying to let her know that her fear came true? If she's really afraid of that, then on some level, she fears that she really is a terrible therapist, and I can be very convincing. Maybe I can write something that will at least make her doubt herself, question herself. I can't believe I wouldn't at least be able to plant a seed. I mean, more of one than I have already.
What am I hoping to get from it? That's a good question--I'm not sure. Satisfaction, but from what? Watching her suffer? That doesn't seem nice. That can't be healthy for me.
I agree I need to do myself the favor of disentangling myself mentally from this woman again. I don't know what led to this relapse but the truth is that she has been much less a part of my mental life for the past year or so. And so this is a sudden shift backwards seemingly out of the blue.
Posted by crushedout on April 22, 2007, at 15:30:28
In reply to Re: I can't stop » Fallsfall, posted by crushedout on April 22, 2007, at 14:23:24
what it would be like to meet with her--the ex-T--with the current T present. I dunno if the ex-T would go for it, with her fear of judgment of colleagues and all.
I know I've thought about this before.
One problem with the idea is that my current T has a very tiny, cramped office. Which would make it sort of too oddly intimate.
Posted by Fallsfall on April 23, 2007, at 7:49:58
In reply to Re: I can't stop » Fallsfall, posted by crushedout on April 22, 2007, at 14:23:24
Oh, I do understand!
I guess I went through the same thought process - what did I want to accomplish? Why? How would it help ME? Or how could I accomplish that without putting myself in potential danger?
Since I couldn't come up with satisfactory answers (and, like you, I tried...), eventually it stopped being so important. But I think it was a process I needed to go through. Just keep your own needs first.
And this stuff comes in waves... the tide will go out again.
(((Crushed)))
Keep talking to your wonderful therapist about it.
Posted by raisinb on April 25, 2007, at 21:00:30
In reply to I'm contemplating, posted by crushedout on April 22, 2007, at 15:30:28
I'm so sorry, crushed...what a thing to have to revisit.
As for how completely f**d up and destructive your former T is, I don't even think my extensive collection of profanity would cover it. I wish there was some way to protect clients against her, but that isn't something you need to feel responsible for, after everything that happened.
Be well.
Posted by susan47 on April 25, 2007, at 22:46:54
In reply to Re: I can't stop » Fallsfall, posted by crushedout on April 22, 2007, at 14:23:24
My latest counsellor, who specializes in non-traditional therapies, told me a story about sharing an office with a traditional psychologist. This T would actually come visit my non-traditional practitioner AND ASK HER FOR ADVICE, OFF THE RECORD(!!), pick her brain because even though she "specialized" in children and adolescents, the truth was that she was still new and learning and making a lot of MISTAKES ... so she would ask this other woman for advice, she'd actually come right out and ask her what she'd do in such-and-such a situation.
So it's no surprise to hear your story, Crushed, and it sucks so very much. I'm really sorry and sad for you that this had to happen with this incompetent therapist. People like that ... have no idea. There's no way they should be in their field. They go .. garden.
Posted by susan47 on April 25, 2007, at 22:48:21
In reply to Re: I can't stop » crushedout, posted by susan47 on April 25, 2007, at 22:46:54
That's better. Maybe if they started out with plants, they'd develop some expertise with actual People.
Posted by gardenergirl on April 26, 2007, at 0:27:06
In reply to They should go garden!! » susan47, posted by susan47 on April 25, 2007, at 22:48:21
Posted by susan47 on April 27, 2007, at 0:11:01
In reply to snort! (nm) » susan47, posted by gardenergirl on April 26, 2007, at 0:27:06
Posted by Raindancer on April 27, 2007, at 11:51:00
In reply to post-therapy follow-up, posted by crushedout on April 19, 2007, at 14:23:00
Hello Crushed, Just to say it's good to hear from you again. I remember you well and always found your posts thoughtful and interesting. I drop in from time to time. All the best.
Raindancer
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