![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 78. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by JeffSmith on March 19, 2007, at 12:15:39
Hi All, Your opinions would be greatly appreciated:
A brief backround to what is a looong post (Im sorry about that): I have tremendous mental problems, my life is unbearable and Im desperately seeking QUALIFIED mental help because if I cant find help/get any better then Im definitely going to kill myself (NO, this is not a threat or anything of this nature... I have no date set, its just an inevitability).
My problem is that Im on SS disability, get medicare and $700 per month. NO therapists/psychoanylyst/psychiatrist/psychologist will accept the medicare and I cant even afford to survive on $700 per month so forget about me affording to pay a private shrink.
So for all my life Ive had to resort to "Guidance Centers" or outpatient treatment at the mental unit of any hospital: The problem? They suck. Ive been to see way too many supposed shrinks who dont know crap about crap because their always interns who only took the job as a stepping stone to the better paying job they desire.
My last therapist left me/the Guidance Center she worked at after 5 years (which were uselsess anyway since she sucked) in order to open her own practice (to which she did not invite me). Since then I gave up on wasting time with these know nothing's and Iver just seen my Nurse practitioner for meds (also useless).Well not knowing anyone or anywhere to turn to for qualified mental help I decided to just write to some shrinks and this particular therapists group I discovered on the net in hopes that someone would be kind enough to see how desperate and in need of help I am and actually help me.
The following is a copy of the email exchange I had with this one group, which is long and detailed but I ask that you read it carefully to see if you agree or disagree with the points I made.Also: this morning I spoke to Paula Zuckerman, LCSW, BCD who is on the executive committee at this group regarding this: At this point Im too devestated, disgusted, and angry to explain what this $#%& had to say to me, but Ill just say I feel more hopeless than ever in my life and truly disgusted with mental health "professionals".
If you read the following then whats your opinion? Do you find the reply I got to be as pathetic (etc) as I did? If so do you feel I should "report" them to somewhere just to show (if anything) how cruel and uncaring they are for denying help to me (they DID deny me, Ill explain the disgraceful conversation I had w/ Paula later)?
If so exactly who would I tell about them to? Who would even care? Nobody?
So anyway here is where it began:
I recently came across the web site for the New York Psychotherapy Group at http://nypsychotherapy.com/aboutus.html
And I then filled out the online consultation form at: https://secure19.uplinkearth.com/nypsychotherapy/consultation_form.html in which I in no uncertain terms explained that Im severely depressed, suicidal and anxiety ridden and desperately need help (etc, etc).Ive included here:
#1- My original completed online email consultation form
#2- The email reply I then received from someone at the New York Psychotherapy Group
#3- And my reply to that reply from (?) at the group.
#1-My Original Online Consultation Form Info Sent To The Group On Friday 3/16/07:
"
Where to even begin: Severe depression and will definitely kill myself one day (sooner than later), severe anxiety very close to agoraphobia, ZERO self esteem... Im gay but havent even had any sex for nearly 13 years due to feelings of inadequecy (etc,) I havent worked in 16 years and rarely even leave my house: I have only one friend (my roomate) and virtually no other contact with the outside world. I could go on (and on and on and on) regarding the extent of my mental problems but it would take waaay too long here: Im 37 years old, have literally NEVER been happy and have ALWAYS been depressed, anxiety filled and miserable. I currently see a "therapist" (have done so for years) and take meds which do nothing for me (Ive tried them all and refuse to take any others). Im writting you since Ive recently decided to make a last effort in life to get some proper help and if I cant find it then Im not planning on living too much longer. Unfortunately Im all too aware of the fact that without proper money one cannot get proper mental health care: All I have by way of insurance is Medicare (along with the $700 disability I "live" on each month). If you think youre able to help me/my life out or perhaps even refer me to another qualified psychologist (or etc) (and not a "Guidance Center" type place) in (my county on) LI then that would be very, very great... If not then please dont just refer me to the local mental ward where I can go and get pumped full of drugs and then (only after one becomes available) be assigned to the next "therapist" (AKA: Intern who doesnt really know what theyre doing and who just cant wait to get their "real" job) who will patronizingly see me for a few months until they leave or until "our time is up". I have no interest in going that useless route again. Yes, Im very angry but honestly also a very nice person who is just in severe, severe pain which is now and always been greatly compounded by the lack of help available to me due to my being "poor". I really would greatly appreciate any help... I hate to sound dramatic or put you under any pressure but Im very desperate, need a lot of help and you very well just may be saving my life. Thanks very much for any potential help.
Other Reason
Availability All day, all night... whenever you contact me Ill be here unfortunately. As for actual schedualing to come in, Fridays and weekends are best. Thanks again, Jeff
Call yes
Home Phone
Work Phone Or Email Below
eMail yes
eMail address
"
#2- Then Here Is The Follow Up Email I Later On Received From (?) At The Group:"> Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 01:11:16 -0400
> From: nypg@nypsychotherapy.com
> To: Jeff
> Subject: your request - New York Psychotherapy Group
>
> Dear Mr. ,
>
> This is in response to the form you filled out on our website.
>
> I'm sorry but all of our therapists are in Manhattan only
> and we don't have any psychiatrists who take medication.
>
> But I can't help but make a suggestion......medication
> sounds like the first and most urgent issue. I would
> recommend going to one of the top psychiatric outpatient
> facilities in your area (a hospital that is doing extensive
> research and would therefore, pay close attention to you and
> your progress, or lack thereof). I'm sorry to say that I
> don't know which hospital that would be because I'm not
> familiar with your area.
>
> If you wanted to travel into Manhattan, the Psychiatric
> Institute at Columbia Presbyterian Hospital always has
> research going on and they are highly respected for the
> thoroughness of their work.
>
> Sorry I can't be of more help.
>
> New York Psychotherapy Group"
#3-And Then Here Is My Reply To That Reply From (?) At The Group.
"From: jeff
To: nypg@nypsychotherapy.com
Subject: RE: your request - New York Psychotherapy Group
Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 07:55:26 +0000Wow. I am truly devastated by your lack of a legitimate and/or caring reply to a person (me) who is in obvious major distress and is desperately reaching out to anyone who he (I) thinks may be able to help me... but I cant say Im at all surprised: Like I said its always ALL about the $$$$$$$$$$$$$$.
Im sure Ill get no reply, but Id appreciate if you would just please read this:
In your reply you said: "I'm sorry but all of our therapists are in Manhattan only and we don't have any psychiatrists who take medication."
-Yeah? So what if all of your therapists "are in Manhattan only"?
I know I did ask if you had a referral to anyone in LI, however I never said I wouldnt take a NYC therapist and clearly your based in NYC. What I said was "If you think youre able to help me/my life out OR perhaps even refer me to another qualified psychologist (or etc) (and not a "Guidance Center" type place) in Nassau County LI then that would be very, very great..."
So you see when I said "perhaps even refer me to... in (my county on) LI" it was just an after thought/idea to my obvious preferred request that you/youre organization please help me.
And later in your reply you go on to say "If you wanted to travel into Manhattan, the Psychiatric Institute at Columbia Presbyterian Hospital always has research going on and they are highly respected for the thoroughness of their work."
Well let me ask you this: If I wanted to travel into Manhattan to go to the Col. Pres. Hospital then dont you think Id also just as easily travel in to Manhattan to see one of your therapists? Yes, of course I would so it doesnt at all make sense for you to first say "sorry" but all YOUR therapists are in "Manhattan only", yet at the same time you then suggest that I travel right into Manhattan for a therapist/hospital which is not yours.
Very, very interesting indeed.And can you please explain exactly what you meant by telling me that "we don't have any psychiatrists who take medication"?
Personally its irrelevant to me and their ability to be able to help me whether they themselves take medication or not. If you meant that they dont PRESCRIBE medication then thats fine with me too since I specifically said in my original email that I dont want any medication... I had said "(Ive tried them all and refuse to take any others)".
Did you mean that your psychiatrists dont take any patients who are currently on medication? If so then why?
Or did you mean that "we dont have any psychiatrists who take MEDICARE"? If so then I say a BIG thank you to you all for turning me down on the basis that I cant afford your particular services without it: Im sure its probably not everyday that you get such a dire request for help from someone as troubled and suicidal as I obviously am, and it just really, really, really disgusts me to see how uncaring and unhelpful members of the mental health profession can be and obviously are: If I wouldve written in my original email that I was very wealthy then Im quite (QUITE) sure that you wouldve not referred me to elsewhere but instead would have already booked me an appointment at your group.
You then continued in your reply to me: "But I can't help but make a suggestion......medication sounds like the first and most urgent issue. I would recommend going to one of the top psychiatric outpatient facilities in your area (a hospital that is doing extensive research and would therefore, pay close attention to you and your progress, or lack thereof). I'm sorry to say that I don't know which hospital that would be because I'm not familiar with your area."
Well, again, I specifically said "(Ive tried them all and refuse to take any others)" so I simply cant understand why youd suggest this when I clearly said Ive tried them all and refuse to take any others: You have no idea if medication would/could help me due to the fact that you dont know the specifics of my "life" which cause me to be so depressed/suicidal (etc, etc) in the first place. If Ive already tried them all (and am currently on two- Wellbutrin and klonopin) then what makes you suggest I go take more now?
And I also dont know of any "hospitals/top psychiatric outpatient facilities" that are "doing extensive research" in my area... and I have no interest in going to one either which is exactly why I reached out to you/your organization and even specifically asked you to "please dont just refer me to the local mental ward where I can go and get pumped full of drugs" which is exactly what you did/said anyway.
Im also very, very sorry that you "cant" be of any more help, but the fact is you very well COULD have been of more help but simply CHOSE not to, and we know why.
And thank you very much for doing absolutely nothing to help me. No, its not yours or anyone elses obligation to do so but I (obviously very stupidly) held out hope that if I reached out to mental health professionals that they might just show some compassion and use their abilities to help me instead of just basically assisting in my suicide by coldly rejecting me/my request for help due to their selfish greed.
Youve done nothing illegal or technically unethical, however you did have the ability to help me and quite possibly save me from killing myself and instead you coldly and quickly brushed me off after your extremely unhelpful reply which you clearly put little to no effort or thought into.
Please be sure of the fact that before I die I fully intend to document these emails and forward them to all possible people at your organization and also and especially to every possible place I can think of that just might agree with the fact that you couldve helped me when I was alive but simply chose not to. Its late right now, but later today Ill compile an extensive list of who/where Ill send this info to. Perhaps a benefit of my death will be exposing uncaring/uncompassionate mental health professionals such as you/your organization.
Thanks very much for your compassion and help. I really do appreciate it.
And have a great life.
Jeff."
Posted by sunnydays on March 19, 2007, at 13:08:45
In reply to Your Opinion: Am I Right Or Just Crazy/Irrational, posted by JeffSmith on March 19, 2007, at 12:15:39
I'm sorry you were so hurt by their reply. I think they were trying to express that they didn't feel like they could help you, and were trying to suggest an alternative. There really aren't many alternatives to therapy besides medication or hospitalization. I'm sorry they couldn't see you.
sunnydays
Posted by JeffSmith on March 19, 2007, at 13:55:07
In reply to Re: Your Opinion: Am I Right Or Just Crazy/Irrational, posted by sunnydays on March 19, 2007, at 13:08:45
> I'm sorry you were so hurt by their reply. I think they were trying to express that they didn't feel like they could help you, and were trying to suggest an alternative. There really aren't many alternatives to therapy besides medication or hospitalization. I'm sorry they couldn't see you.
>
> sunnydaysThanks sunny for replying. But they werent expressing that they didnt "feel like" they could help me, they were expressing that they were CHOOSING to not help me only because I couldnt afford their help. This morning I had a long conversation with that woman Paula from that group I mentioned and she fully agreed (in so many words once pressed hard enough) with what Im telling you.
And the alternative that they suggested was ridiculous and thoughtless due to the fact that I had clearly explained that I wasnt going to try any more medication. Again, I did make it clear to them that Ive tried them all and am currently on them and I did ask them to please not just refer me to the local mental ward (which is exactly what they did). And also remember that they had no very specific detail or idea as to why I am so depressed (etc, etc) therefore no valid exuse/reason to suggest I go to the local mental ward which (according the this person) may be doing "extensive research" or to the one in NYC, both for the purpose of taking more meds.I know there arent any alternatives to therapy (which I deperately need but obviously cant get) besides medication (which hasnt helped and cant with my particular problems) or hospitalization (which just means more drugs) and this is why Im so hopeless.
Posted by one woman cine on March 19, 2007, at 14:17:22
In reply to Re: Your Opinion: Am I Right Or Just Crazy/Irrational » sunnydays, posted by JeffSmith on March 19, 2007, at 13:55:07
Jeff, if you are on disability, most pdocs must take disability - medicare/medicaid. They cannot discriminate based on ability to pay.
However, pdocs/therapists may decline to treat a patient who they think they cannot help or is outside their ability to treat. ie. if a patient requires more intensive therapy/intervention etc.
I think maybe your letter stating that you "will kill yourself" at some point - that it is a forgone conclusion, then that could be red-flag to a provider and they may shy away for that reason. Providers want to help folks who are looking for help, and want to improve their lives, even in a small way.
Do you think you can be helped or treated? I think that is an important question that you need to ask yourself.
Posted by one woman cine on March 19, 2007, at 14:30:33
In reply to Your Opinion: Am I Right Or Just Crazy/Irrational, posted by JeffSmith on March 19, 2007, at 12:15:39
Columbia Pres. really is excellent - I know that for a fact & several clinicians who work there - if you could make it into NYC, I would definitely check it out. It is top notch - they gave you a really good recommendation that I would follow up on. Most people couldn't afford the institute (pricey for those that don't have medicare/medicaid) - but you could be seen there no problem - check it out.
Posted by JeffSmith on March 19, 2007, at 16:15:57
In reply to Re: Your Opinion: Am I Right Or Just Crazy/Irrational » JeffSmith, posted by one woman cine on March 19, 2007, at 14:17:22
> Jeff, if you are on disability, most pdocs must take disability - medicare/medicaid. They cannot discriminate based on ability to pay.
>
> However, pdocs/therapists may decline to treat a patient who they think they cannot help or is outside their ability to treat. ie. if a patient requires more intensive therapy/intervention etc.
>
> I think maybe your letter stating that you "will kill yourself" at some point - that it is a forgone conclusion, then that could be red-flag to a provider and they may shy away for that reason. Providers want to help folks who are looking for help, and want to improve their lives, even in a small way.
>
> Do you think you can be helped or treated? I think that is an important question that you need to ask yourself.
>
>Hi cine,
That may be true but for me every private therapist Ive contacted has said they do not take medicare. That woman Paula from the NYPGroup told me that none of her psychs accept it. And I also called another one earlier this morning (Dr. Shane Hibbs in Bayshore NY) who's receptionist said he also doesnt take it (the Doc was still supposed to call me back though and still hasnt and most likely wont).
The NYPGroup I keep referring to apparently has around 36 various therapists specializing in various things so Im sure at least one of them wouldve been able to treat me so this cant be a case of me being too troubled for them to handle.
Yes, in my letter I said I will definitely kill myself one day IF I am continually unsuccessful in getting mental help but I didnt indicate it was totally a forgone conclusion.
Yes of course I believe I can be helped or treated with the right help, but unfortunately Ive never been able to receive this.
You mentioned that providers want to help folks who are looking for help and want to improve their lives: Well the only provider I said anything about suicide to was the NYPGroup and in my email to them I was, again, clear that while I planned to kill myself one day I was first and desperately looking for help as an alternative to suicide.
And on the phone with Paula I was more than as clear as you could possibly imagine that I wanted/needed help and nothing else... and as I said, she admitted that its all about the money.
Not to mention that if a therapist would shy away from a person just because they perceived from one letter (or for any reason) that this persons suicide was a forgone conclusion (which wouldve been a wrong perception to start with in my case) then this person should no longer be a therapist.
What kind of therapist/human being would immediately refuse to see/give up on any attempt whatsoever to help a person just because they may think this person will definitely kill themselves one day? Wouldnt it be better to at least try to help this person first? Do therapists shy away from patients who are dying from terminal illness?
I think my perception of what/how a therapist should be must be very warped.Also cine, thanks for seconding the tip to Col. Pres. Hospital... if its really that good Ill definitely check it out.
Posted by Racer on March 19, 2007, at 16:27:02
In reply to oh plus,, posted by one woman cine on March 19, 2007, at 14:30:33
I'm sorry for the state you're in, Jeff. I've been without insurance -- not even medicare -- and it is very hard to get any sort of treatment, mental or physical.
In reading your email, though, I saw something that I think fits with what one woman cine had to say. When you say that you're unwilling to take any other medication, it kinda sounds as if maybe you're a little resistant to treatment options, which -- especially since you said you would kill yourself without proper treatment -- might make you sound a bit like a liability for a mental health practitioner. I'm not saying that as criticism, only in hope you can see another perspective on your phrasing, and the response it got.
Personally, if they're too expensive, and don't have sliding scales for those unable to pay their full rates, then they don't. Whether that's their "choosing" not to help you, or their inability to help you given those rates, the bottom line is that they're not the place to look for help.
Have you checked the local non-profits in your area? Many times, there are local non-profits that can offer some mental health care to low income residents in their area. Otherwise, most counties have -- as well as their own departments of mental health -- some sort of resource listing for community support. NAMI has listings, too, for many areas of the country; it's worth checking their website for local listings in your area.
I also wonder if it might be in your best interest, though, to open your mind a little to other medication options. What you're taking apparently isn't doing quite what you need. There really are so many meds out there, and possibly a more effective medication would improve your ability to see other options for getting therapy. I know how devastating medication trials can be, especially since I've been going through it for quite some time myself now. Still, I know I'm feeling better than I did two years ago -- heck, I'm feeling better now than I was two months ago! -- so in the longer term, it's probably been worth it to me to keep trying new ones. Maybe it will be for you, too.
What I really see coming out in your post is that you are hurting something fierce, and I'm very sorry about that. I know how I get when my depression is that bad -- I can't see any options open to me, and I get desparate, but paralyzed. Much as I hate to admit it, and little as I can see it when I'm in that state, medications do help with that. In fact, they actually help me more than therapy for getting past that negative view of my options. Maybe a more effective medication would help you see some options you just can see right now.
I hope you do try Columbia, and that they can help you. Good luck.
Posted by gazo on March 19, 2007, at 18:06:26
In reply to Your Opinion: Am I Right Or Just Crazy/Irrational, posted by JeffSmith on March 19, 2007, at 12:15:39
I am sorry you are such a dismal place mentally. I know it hurts. I know you want someone out there in mental health to step in and help... but the sad truth is that most people I have ever met in mental health (and god knows I knwo a lot of them) are just doing a job. They might go into healthcare because they have a desire to help people to some extent, but it is a career to them. To patients its so much more.
I read just today that sometimes people become caregivers because they are trying to construct a particular identity. They said that was why hospital nurses aren't very friendly sometimes.
I commend you for continuing to try to find help. My advice, for what it's worth is two-fold:
* don't hate the messenger but your anger (justified or not) comes across louder than your plea for help. I don't think that is going to make anyone feel like helping for free or cheap.
* while you keeping trying to find outside help, you should consider doing what you can yourself. It might sound cheesy but a lot can be done through self-help books, meditation and free support groups.I really do hear you underneath all that anger.
Posted by Jeff Smith on March 19, 2007, at 19:03:54
In reply to Another perspective, posted by Racer on March 19, 2007, at 16:27:02
> I'm sorry for the state you're in, Jeff. I've been without insurance -- not even medicare -- and it is very hard to get any sort of treatment, mental or physical.
>
> In reading your email, though, I saw something that I think fits with what one woman cine had to say. When you say that you're unwilling to take any other medication, it kinda sounds as if maybe you're a little resistant to treatment options, which -- especially since you said you would kill yourself without proper treatment -- might make you sound a bit like a liability for a mental health practitioner. I'm not saying that as criticism, only in hope you can see another perspective on your phrasing, and the response it got.
>
> Personally, if they're too expensive, and don't have sliding scales for those unable to pay their full rates, then they don't. Whether that's their "choosing" not to help you, or their inability to help you given those rates, the bottom line is that they're not the place to look for help.
>
> Have you checked the local non-profits in your area? Many times, there are local non-profits that can offer some mental health care to low income residents in their area. Otherwise, most counties have -- as well as their own departments of mental health -- some sort of resource listing for community support. NAMI has listings, too, for many areas of the country; it's worth checking their website for local listings in your area.
>
> I also wonder if it might be in your best interest, though, to open your mind a little to other medication options. What you're taking apparently isn't doing quite what you need. There really are so many meds out there, and possibly a more effective medication would improve your ability to see other options for getting therapy. I know how devastating medication trials can be, especially since I've been going through it for quite some time myself now. Still, I know I'm feeling better than I did two years ago -- heck, I'm feeling better now than I was two months ago! -- so in the longer term, it's probably been worth it to me to keep trying new ones. Maybe it will be for you, too.
>
> What I really see coming out in your post is that you are hurting something fierce, and I'm very sorry about that. I know how I get when my depression is that bad -- I can't see any options open to me, and I get desperate, but paralyzed. Much as I hate to admit it, and little as I can see it when I'm in that state, medications do help with that. In fact, they actually help me more than therapy for getting past that negative view of my options. Maybe a more effective medication would help you see some options you just can see right now.
>
> I hope you do try Columbia, and that they can help you. Good luck.Thanks Racer,
I know Im gonna probably sound combative and argumentative and against all ideas people give, but I really do have valid reasons as to why...unless Im just unable to see things clearly enough, but I dont believe that's the case.
Its true that I will not consider further meds: Ive been depressed literally my entire life so Im sure I have chemical issues, however no anti depressants have ever done anything at all substantial for me.
Ive been on several SSRI's and will never take one again: They made me gain weight, made it impossible to take off, once I stopped taking them and switched to Wellbutrin Ive lost weight but am still 30 pounds overweight. If I take the SSRI's again Ill get fatter and that's just not gonna happen: Im 37, havent had sex or a relationship in forever, nobody wants a fat guy (I certainly dont), that's a fact that I accept and Id rather be dead than face the rest of my life as a fat lonely guy.
The Wellbutrin has the same non effect that the SSRI's had on my depression and Im sure that's because (despite being chemically depressed) no amount of drugs can alter my mood/depression/torturous misery over my miserable life (which I cant figure out how to even begin to change given all the obstacles). My anxiety and major social anxiety have also never been affected by drugs (and I dont believe can be due to the fact that these issues come from a lifetime of low self esteem and major things of this nature and not chemical issues).About a year and a half ago (I dont recall the exact time,) I went to my shrink (a nurse practitioner Ive seen monthly for the past several years so she knows me well enough)and explained that I was feeling very angry (more so than normal). Looking back I know why I was so angry but at the time I asked her if she could give me anything for this (as if they had some magic de-angrifying pill). She said she would consult w/ this other Dr. there and let me know the following visit (she'd never consulted anyone about me before so that was odd).
Anyway, I go back the next month and she suggests "Abilify" for me... it'll help my anger. I had no clue what it was until I Googled it and found out it was an anti psychotic. Im not in the slightest bit psychotic and she knows it so I couldnt understand why shed prescribe that, but I took it for around a year. Did it help my anger? No. Did it make me feel zombie like? Yes. It also made me much more prone to severe anxiety. Plus I couldnt smoke pot on it at all... one hit would turn me into a paranoid wreck and make smoking impossible.
I stopped taking it and those things changed. The fact is the Abilify made me worse and I feel robbed of a year of my life do to the zombie/apathetic state I was in. It wasnt EXTREME but enough to greatly notice the difference once off of it.
BTW: Yes I smoke pot sometimes and no I dont feel it contributes to my problems.So I have no reason to believe that any other med I take is going to be substantially helpful and every reason to believe it cant help and can only serve to make me fat. I could be wrong, I dont know, but this is how I feel.
So thats what treatment Im resistant to. I just dont get how that would make me a liability to any therapist: If they think youre seriously suicidal then they call the police/ambulance and if youre not then you just have a normal therapy session. They cant be held responsible if youve refused meds and they still counseled you and you then killed yourself. That doesnt make sense, or am I misunderstanding where the liability would be?As for the non profit places: Im not sure exactly what you mean, but Ive been to several of and now go to a "Community" type place. My complaint about them is that they dont have any qualified therapists working at them who can or ever have at all helped me psychologically. I honestly could go on and on with all the stories of crap therapy Ive received... like the one I saw who used to be a head hunter and whos cats name was Spats and how she had her own part time private practice and only worked at that organization for the benefits. I knew all about her as she never STFU. All the others equally sucked.
You dont find qualified the Dr. Phil types working for crap pay at these places.I do appreciate your (and everyone whos replied) thoughful replies though. And Im glad to hear that youre at least feeling better than two months ago... hopefully that will increase. : )
Posted by Jeff Smith on March 19, 2007, at 19:19:40
In reply to Re: Your Opinion: Am I Right Or Just Crazy/Irratio, posted by gazo on March 19, 2007, at 18:06:26
> I am sorry you are such a dismal place mentally. I know it hurts. I know you want someone out there in mental health to step in and help... but the sad truth is that most people I have ever met in mental health (and god knows I knwo a lot of them) are just doing a job. They might go into healthcare because they have a desire to help people to some extent, but it is a career to them. To patients its so much more.
>
> I read just today that sometimes people become caregivers because they are trying to construct a particular identity. They said that was why hospital nurses aren't very friendly sometimes.
>
> I commend you for continuing to try to find help. My advice, for what it's worth is two-fold:
> * don't hate the messenger but your anger (justified or not) comes across louder than your plea for help. I don't think that is going to make anyone feel like helping for free or cheap.
> * while you keeping trying to find outside help, you should consider doing what you can yourself. It might sound cheesy but a lot can be done through self-help books, meditation and free support groups.
>
> I really do hear you underneath all that anger.Thank you gazo!! : )
It really does make me feel a bit better to be understood and to hear you agree somewhat with the idea of these therapists not going into there jobs with great intentions to help mentally ill people. Im sure its not all of them but c'mon!!
As for my anger: Believe it or not all of what you read is actually me trying to sound as non angry as possible. Its just not possible for me. : )
I really mostly only have three modes: Angry, sad/depressed and just emotionally dead/dont feel much of anything.
Thanks again gazo. Just dont suggest anger management classes ; )
Posted by Racer on March 19, 2007, at 19:37:15
In reply to Re: Another perspective » Racer, posted by Jeff Smith on March 19, 2007, at 19:03:54
First of all, anti-psychotics are used for a lot more than psychosis these days. Low dose APs are used for OCD, anxiety, sleep disturbance, as an augmenting agent for antidepressants, and I'm sure other uses I'm not thinking of. The fact that your NP prescribed Abilify isn't so surprising, actually, as it's often used to kick up the effects of anti-depressants.
Second, from your description, I wonder if you might be bipolar? The sort of anger you're describing sounds a little like a mixed state. If so, finding a mood stabilizer might help.
And there are ways to mitigate the weight gain from antidepressants -- one of which is to add Wellbutrin. If you're taking Wellbutrin and it's not doing the full job, maybe adding a low dose of an SSRI would kick it into gear. There are also other drugs, of entirely different classes, that might work better for you. SSRIs are not the only game in town. The meds board here is a great resource for finding information about different drugs.
And I do think that a more effective drug would be the first step for you. Right now, it sounds as though you have plenty of reasons why you won't or can't do anything to improve your situation. To me, that's something I see in myself when I'm depressed. And I don't find it particularly attractive while I'm doing it. What I have found in the past, is that once I have adequate antidepressant activity going on biochemically, I *can* take steps to find the additional help I might need, or at least see options that I wasn't able to see before.
That's only my opinion, of course.
My last comment, though, is about your assessment of the therapists you've seen at community agencies so far: Are you familiar with the idea of a self-fulfilling prophecy? I guess I'd suggest that you consider what it is you're hoping to get out of talk therapy, and then ask for that. If a therapist is telling you too much about herself, and not helping you -- tell her. You don't have to be rude about it, and you certainly don't have to be angry when you tell her, but you can certainly tell her, "You know, I'm not finding it very helpful to hear about your cat. Can we try to stay on topic?" That's your right, since it's your treatment.
Just a few thoughts.... Good luck, whatever happens.
Posted by gazo on March 19, 2007, at 20:41:24
In reply to Re: Your Opinion: Am I Right Or Just Crazy/Irratio » gazo, posted by Jeff Smith on March 19, 2007, at 19:19:40
is there anyone who can help you with a more effective letter maybe? maybe that is one thing the guidance center people would be good for.
Posted by Jeff Smith on March 20, 2007, at 1:08:48
In reply to Re: Another perspective » Jeff Smith, posted by Racer on March 19, 2007, at 19:37:15
> First of all, anti-psychotics are used for a lot more than psychosis these days. Low dose APs are used for OCD, anxiety, sleep disturbance, as an augmenting agent for antidepressants, and I'm sure other uses I'm not thinking of. The fact that your NP prescribed Abilify isn't so surprising, actually, as it's often used to kick up the effects of anti-depressants.
>
> Second, from your description, I wonder if you might be bipolar? The sort of anger you're describing sounds a little like a mixed state. If so, finding a mood stabilizer might help.
>
> And there are ways to mitigate the weight gain from antidepressants -- one of which is to add Wellbutrin. If you're taking Wellbutrin and it's not doing the full job, maybe adding a low dose of an SSRI would kick it into gear. There are also other drugs, of entirely different classes, that might work better for you. SSRIs are not the only game in town. The meds board here is a great resource for finding information about different drugs.
>
> And I do think that a more effective drug would be the first step for you. Right now, it sounds as though you have plenty of reasons why you won't or can't do anything to improve your situation. To me, that's something I see in myself when I'm depressed. And I don't find it particularly attractive while I'm doing it. What I have found in the past, is that once I have adequate antidepressant activity going on biochemically, I *can* take steps to find the additional help I might need, or at least see options that I wasn't able to see before.
>
> That's only my opinion, of course.
>
> My last comment, though, is about your assessment of the therapists you've seen at community agencies so far: Are you familiar with the idea of a self-fulfilling prophecy? I guess I'd suggest that you consider what it is you're hoping to get out of talk therapy, and then ask for that. If a therapist is telling you too much about herself, and not helping you -- tell her. You don't have to be rude about it, and you certainly don't have to be angry when you tell her, but you can certainly tell her, "You know, I'm not finding it very helpful to hear about your cat. Can we try to stay on topic?" That's your right, since it's your treatment.
>
> Just a few thoughts.... Good luck, whatever happens.I see. Im far from a medical expert though, I just know how it (the Abilify) effected me which was negatively. And Im not sure about the bi-polar: I dont know much about it except that I believe people usually have major highs and lows with it... and Ive never had a major (or even close) high.
Also see my next reply to gazo: Ive been reading the Col. Pres. Hospital webpage and Id be willing to at least consider the possibility of some type of med if they were convincing.
So what is your depression (and/or anxiety) like? How does it limit or prevent you from living life? And (if you dont mind telling) what meds do you take?
Also, if all of my experiences with therapists were the result of a self fulfilling prophecy then Id be very amazed by my mental powers : ) Ive actually gone into every new therapist with great hope that theyll be the one to help and its only when they prove themselves completely opposite from that hope (and as Ive described them) that I become very disenchanted.
The one with the cat who talked all about herself (and btw she also would annoyingly quote Oprah-isms and try to make it seem as though they were her own ideas) was someone I saw about 10 or 11 years ago: I was way too pathetic back then to even dream about asserting myself even in the way you suggested... I wouldve been too afraid to insult her or hurt her feelings (crazy I know but thats how it was).
The last one I saw (for 5 years) did almost no talking. I would talk and talk and talk until I repeated the same crap over and over (I have zero life so soon it was eventually impossible to think of anything new to talk about as nothing ever went on with me/my life). After awhile I managed to tell her that I was getting nothing out of coming there and talking and getting no feedback and that I felt like I wanted to stop seeing her: Thats as far as I got since all she had to do to convince me of otherwise was to agree with my next opinion that I was probably better off leaving the house once a week to go see her than I would be not doing so.
Although she was useless I could tell that she genuinely liked me and I liked her from what I knew about her, as she seemed like a really nice woman, so I especially didnt want to offend her/hurt her feelings by going so far as to leave her. She never did give a reason for her no reply method but I continued to see her and talk and talk and got nothing out of it until she finally left the place to open her own practice.
After her I gave up on therapists, until now, but have been on meds steadily since then.
I just desire a shrink like the ones I read about here, and whatnot, who speak and help and offer an opinion or suggestion once in awhile and who are actively involved in the therapy process so its not like talking to a cardboard cut out, etc... just a competent and qualified and caring person who can confidently help me in the right manner (which Im not exactly sure what that is but Im sure the qualified shrink would know).
Posted by Jeff Smith on March 20, 2007, at 1:33:39
In reply to Re: Your Opinion: Am I Right Or Just Crazy/Irratio, posted by gazo on March 19, 2007, at 20:41:24
> is there anyone who can help you with a more effective letter maybe? maybe that is one thing the guidance center people would be good for.
First: I just told racer to see my next post to you since I thought it was you who also referred the Col. Pres. Hospital but now I see it was cine...
So cine: If this is the Hospital you were talking about http://www.nyppsychiatry.org/abo_us.html
then Im very, very impressed! And thanks again.
They go on and on and on about their extensive tests and interviews and whatnot regarding your specific mental issues (which is explained much better on the page then Im doing here). Ive never experienced any of this... the most "evaluating" I ever got was about 40 minutes w/ a psychiatrist trying to hurry up and tell him my entire life's problems as quick as possible before our time ended.Gazo: Are you trying to get me to censor my anger? ; )
Seriously, I dont really know (but I would doubt if) there's anyone there who'd help me write a letter, but at this moment Im very impressed with the above mentioned Hospital so perhaps Ill be able to get acquainted with them.
Posted by Racer on March 20, 2007, at 1:52:22
In reply to Re: Another perspective » Racer, posted by Jeff Smith on March 20, 2007, at 1:08:48
You asked how my depression/anxiety affected my life, and what meds I'm on. So, I'll give you the short answer to those, although I don't want to go into too much detail.
First, I'm on disability, because of severe depression/anxiety and anorexia nervosa. My depression is the melancholic sort, and when it's bad, it leaves me lying on the sofa, unable to do much of anything. Anxiety is a big problem, too, mostly physical, with some OCD type aspects to it. I'll get intrusive thoughts that I just can't get away from, guilt over past events, shame, etc. The anorexia is chronic, although my weight is near normal range right now.
I take Wellbutrin XL, Prozac, Ritalin, and my pdoc just had me add SAMe. He's also just prescribed a new B complex vitamin, a new prescription formulation, but my pharmacy hasn't gotten that in yet, so I don't know if it will be helpful or not. I have a lot of paradoxical reactions to medications, and a few more common adverse effects, so it's hard to treat either depression or anxiety. Benzodiazepines, like Valium or Xanax, often increase my anxiety a great deal. When I take Ritalin, I often need an afternoon nap. Right now, though, the side effects seem benign enough, and I guess I'm getting back to being pretty OK with this combination. It's early days, though.
And when I was without insurance, I experienced a series of nightmares with trying to get treatment. I won't go into details, but some of it was very, very bad. The most recent horror story is only a couple of years old, and it's here in the archives. Basically, though, I lost a third of my body weight, telling the "therapist" that I had lapsed back into anorexia, and was ignored. The pdoc's notes continued to call me "well nourished" as my BMI dropped below 14. I know that there are horror stories out there. I really do. There are also some good stories, though. It's just hard to find them when you need them.
Abilify may not have been the right drug for you, but there are others like Seroquel and Risperdal that might be a better fit for you. Even Buspar is great for some people. Wellbutrin is a nice drug if it works for you, but it often isn't enough on its own. Adding a low dose of one of the SSRIs is often a good adjunct to it, providing a more robust response. There really are a lot of options out there. And you really do sound as if you're in so much pain right now.
As for the bipolar, it doesn't necessarily mean "highs" and "lows." Many people don't have full blown mania at all -- just hypomania, or mixed states. Hypomania is not quite mania, it's like mania lite. Mixed states, though, can present as depression with rage, or with agitation or anxiety. That sounds a bit like what you're describing, and a lot of the mood stabilizers are also used to augment antidepressants. Lamictal is one that a lot of people have a lot of good luck with. Even Lithium is used successfully to augment antidepressants. You really can get a better response than you're getting right now.
I hope Columbia works out for you. I know a few people there, and they're all good folks. My mother's life was saved there, years ago, and a few people there did a big favor for me by providing second (and third) opinions for me when I wasn't able to access adequate health care a few years back. You're lucky to live close enough to access them, and I truly hope it works out for you.
If it doesn't, for some reason, check with the universities in your area which offer doctoral programs in psychology. Psych candidates have to do some internship work, and often you can get pretty good care from an intern. It's not the most experienced care, but sometimes the students are older, and have more experience of the world. It's certainly worth a shot.
Good luck.
Posted by Honore on March 20, 2007, at 6:02:39
In reply to Your Opinion: Am I Right Or Just Crazy/Irrational, posted by JeffSmith on March 19, 2007, at 12:15:39
Jeff, you say that your problems have a chemical basis. The first line of treatment for you might very well be be medication. Therapy itself could be more effective if the turmoil you've in was somewhat alleviated.
I know this isn't what you want to hear and that you've more or less given up on medications. However, there are ones that you haven't tried. Moreover, given that we live in a profit-based world, and medicare does pay for medications, your chances of getting the best medications is, unfortunately, better than your chances of getting the very best in long term therapy. I don't mean to be harsh-- it isn't fair or very admirable-- but it's just a fact of life--
Anyway, to be a honest, after a lifetime of therapy, and even one therapist who has helped me a lot, I personally think the medications have made (and continue to make) an unequalled effect in helping me. So after many years of distrust, I'm pretty pro=medication-- with the proviso, that it's not necessarily easy to get that right combination that will help.
Besides SSRIs and wellbutrin, there are tricyclics (older generation Anti-depressants, some of which are newer and have fewer side effects), cymbalta, remeron, and MAOIs.--and others These can be supplemented with mood stabilizers or Anti-psychotics-- not because one is psychotic, but because they help to enhance anti-depressant effects and also to help free people from certain hard-to-overcome destructive thought and emotional patterns.
My sugggestion is somehwat like Onewomancine's-- I had looked recently for a place for a friend without insurance to get a good evaluation for medications. Payne Whitney, which is a leading psychiatric hospital in New York, has an outpatient clinic which has highly qualified psychiatrists in training, being supervised by really good clinicians. A consultation is expensive== $125-- but visits after that are on a sliding scale, based on income.
I know that you want a person to talk to-- I understand and empathize with that. And you don't want to be foisted off on another med. But I think, realistically, if you do want your life to get better, the first road to take is that of the best meds you can get.
After that, you may be able to strategize and act in a a more concerted way to find a therapist who can respond more appropriately-- and also you might be able to use better the therapists you do find.
I can find out more details about Payne Whitney, if you're interested. Or Columbia Psych might be also as good.
Honore
Posted by one woman cine on March 20, 2007, at 8:03:47
In reply to Re: Another perspective » Racer, posted by Jeff Smith on March 20, 2007, at 1:08:48
Jeff, I know you've said you've done the "mental health" thing for years - but I think it's always best to be open minded when things start to look bad. Taking medications other than prescribed (ie pot) will interfere with other meds. AP's are not just solely used for psychotic symptoms - they can be used for a host of other things as well.
I would hope you wouldn't go into Columbia needing to be "convinced" to try something else. Is it better living like this, (& smoking pot) - than to give something else a try? One has to be willing to try some other things, other treatments - or nothing will be the same. I second the thoughts about self-fulfilling prophecy in terms of therapy - it is a relationship albeit limited.
But it is a relationship that is also dependent on what you put in too. The therapist can guide you, but you have to be the one to want to do the work and do it.
Therapists cannot perform miracles on patients who are unwilling - again I would urge you to be open minded. Cooperation makes therapy rewarding in terms of building a therapuetic relationship.
Best of luck.
Posted by gazo on March 20, 2007, at 8:25:19
In reply to Re: Your Opinion: Am I Right Or Just Crazy/Irrit » gazo, posted by Jeff Smith on March 20, 2007, at 1:33:39
I am glad you can laugh at your own anger and that you know it is there. I am being this direct because it sounds like you want actual answers.
I am going to go check out that hospital site just out of curiosity. I am glad someone was able to find you something so concrete.I very much hope you get the help you want and need.
Posted by fayeroe on March 20, 2007, at 8:45:09
In reply to Re: Your Opinion: Am I Right Or Just Crazy/Irrit » gazo, posted by Jeff Smith on March 20, 2007, at 1:33:39
Jeff, i'd open up a bit to what is available to you and try just a teeny bit to get that chip off of your shoulder.
i say this as someone much older than you and i've struggled with severe depression all of my life. i've had to be humble and flexible to find what works for me best.
i'm semi-retired now and when i worked as a T, the angry patient was very difficult to help. peeling away all those layers took time and a T only has so much time to give one patient. if you could work on acceptance, on your own, and mellow out (without the pot), i think you'll find that people will be much more receptive to trying to find you some help.
the hospital link sounds good and i know it has a very good reputation.
depression makes us angry, sad, tired, cranky, etc. and we have to just keep trying to find what will give us a better quality of life.
good luck, pat
Posted by gazo on March 20, 2007, at 8:46:56
In reply to Re: Your Opinion: Am I Right Or Just Crazy/Irrit » gazo, posted by Jeff Smith on March 20, 2007, at 1:33:39
I am not in the US, so forgive my ignorance of the system.. but will they take medicare or work with you in a way you can afford?
It sounds like they will with a referral.. can you get one?
I will tell you something else, something of my personal experience. I know for a fact that many pdocs and T's will not take on patients with certain types of illnesses. SOmetimes it's because those illnesses present very difficult issues that they just don't deal with. Other times it's because some illnesses cause the patient to be very resistant to treatment even if they feel they want help. I am NOT suggesting you are either of those.. just that is how it works sometimes, their bad not yours. Some won't take on patients that they think will bore them!
Personally I had a T turn me down outright because of the illness I have, even though I didn't want help with that, I wanted help with life issues.
You would think that with all their training in the workings of the human mind and heart they would be more caring and compassionate.. but sadly, that is not a pre-requisite. Also in my experience, many can be just plain cold.
I do hope this new place works out for you.
Posted by Jeff Smith on March 20, 2007, at 9:36:06
In reply to Re: Another perspective » Jeff Smith, posted by Racer on March 20, 2007, at 1:52:22
> You asked how my depression/anxiety affected my life, and what meds I'm on. So, I'll give you the short answer to those, although I don't want to go into too much detail.
>
> First, I'm on disability, because of severe depression/anxiety and anorexia nervosa. My depression is the melancholic sort, and when it's bad, it leaves me lying on the sofa, unable to do much of anything. Anxiety is a big problem, too, mostly physical, with some OCD type aspects to it. I'll get intrusive thoughts that I just can't get away from, guilt over past events, shame, etc. The anorexia is chronic, although my weight is near normal range right now.
>
> I take Wellbutrin XL, Prozac, Ritalin, and my pdoc just had me add SAMe. He's also just prescribed a new B complex vitamin, a new prescription formulation, but my pharmacy hasn't gotten that in yet, so I don't know if it will be helpful or not. I have a lot of paradoxical reactions to medications, and a few more common adverse effects, so it's hard to treat either depression or anxiety. Benzodiazepines, like Valium or Xanax, often increase my anxiety a great deal. When I take Ritalin, I often need an afternoon nap. Right now, though, the side effects seem benign enough, and I guess I'm getting back to being pretty OK with this combination. It's early days, though.
>
> And when I was without insurance, I experienced a series of nightmares with trying to get treatment. I won't go into details, but some of it was very, very bad. The most recent horror story is only a couple of years old, and it's here in the archives. Basically, though, I lost a third of my body weight, telling the "therapist" that I had lapsed back into anorexia, and was ignored. The pdoc's notes continued to call me "well nourished" as my BMI dropped below 14. I know that there are horror stories out there. I really do. There are also some good stories, though. It's just hard to find them when you need them.
>
> Abilify may not have been the right drug for you, but there are others like Seroquel and Risperdal that might be a better fit for you. Even Buspar is great for some people. Wellbutrin is a nice drug if it works for you, but it often isn't enough on its own. Adding a low dose of one of the SSRIs is often a good adjunct to it, providing a more robust response. There really are a lot of options out there. And you really do sound as if you're in so much pain right now.
>
> As for the bipolar, it doesn't necessarily mean "highs" and "lows." Many people don't have full blown mania at all -- just hypomania, or mixed states. Hypomania is not quite mania, it's like mania lite. Mixed states, though, can present as depression with rage, or with agitation or anxiety. That sounds a bit like what you're describing, and a lot of the mood stabilizers are also used to augment antidepressants. Lamictal is one that a lot of people have a lot of good luck with. Even Lithium is used successfully to augment antidepressants. You really can get a better response than you're getting right now.
>
> I hope Columbia works out for you. I know a few people there, and they're all good folks. My mother's life was saved there, years ago, and a few people there did a big favor for me by providing second (and third) opinions for me when I wasn't able to access adequate health care a few years back. You're lucky to live close enough to access them, and I truly hope it works out for you.
>
> If it doesn't, for some reason, check with the universities in your area which offer doctoral programs in psychology. Psych candidates have to do some internship work, and often you can get pretty good care from an intern. It's not the most experienced care, but sometimes the students are older, and have more experience of the world. It's certainly worth a shot.
>
> Good luck.
Aha, so I see we have some "crazinesses" in common. : ) or actually : (
Wowza though. Sorry to hear about all your issues too (I wouldnt have earlier mentioned all the overweight talk if I knew about the anorexia).I find the idea that you were so severely neglected during your last episode to be really inexcusable. I can see if a "therapist" decides to go into their profession on the basis of making money or other things besides the primary desire to help people... but when they ignore you to the point of your life is endangered and they lie (or are just so demented and pre occupied with themselves) and write you were "well nourished" then thats really scary and so not right.
It reminds me of so many medical shows I watch and things I read on the net: So many people go from Dr to Dr to Dr w/ physical ailments (and they can afford the good ones) only to be repeatedly misdiagnosed until the eventual Dr comes along and discovers what their problem is. It just makes you wonder if this is incompetency or just not paying attention/not caring or is it just genuinely that hard to diagnose the real problem even though the testing is so extensive?
Well anyway we'll see how the med thing works out for me... hopefully Ill find a good place. And also very good luck to you too.
Posted by Jeff Smith on March 20, 2007, at 10:08:19
In reply to Re: Your Opinion: Am I Right Or Just Crazy/Irratio » JeffSmith, posted by Honore on March 20, 2007, at 6:02:39
> Jeff, you say that your problems have a chemical basis. The first line of treatment for you might very well be be medication. Therapy itself could be more effective if the turmoil you've in was somewhat alleviated.
>
> I know this isn't what you want to hear and that you've more or less given up on medications. However, there are ones that you haven't tried. Moreover, given that we live in a profit-based world, and medicare does pay for medications, your chances of getting the best medications is, unfortunately, better than your chances of getting the very best in long term therapy. I don't mean to be harsh-- it isn't fair or very admirable-- but it's just a fact of life--
>
> Anyway, to be a honest, after a lifetime of therapy, and even one therapist who has helped me a lot, I personally think the medications have made (and continue to make) an unequalled effect in helping me. So after many years of distrust, I'm pretty pro=medication-- with the proviso, that it's not necessarily easy to get that right combination that will help.
>
> Besides SSRIs and wellbutrin, there are tricyclics (older generation Anti-depressants, some of which are newer and have fewer side effects), cymbalta, remeron, and MAOIs.--and others These can be supplemented with mood stabilizers or Anti-psychotics-- not because one is psychotic, but because they help to enhance anti-depressant effects and also to help free people from certain hard-to-overcome destructive thought and emotional patterns.
>
> My sugggestion is somehwat like Onewomancine's-- I had looked recently for a place for a friend without insurance to get a good evaluation for medications. Payne Whitney, which is a leading psychiatric hospital in New York, has an outpatient clinic which has highly qualified psychiatrists in training, being supervised by really good clinicians. A consultation is expensive== $125-- but visits after that are on a sliding scale, based on income.
>
> I know that you want a person to talk to-- I understand and empathize with that. And you don't want to be foisted off on another med. But I think, realistically, if you do want your life to get better, the first road to take is that of the best meds you can get.
>
> After that, you may be able to strategize and act in a a more concerted way to find a therapist who can respond more appropriately-- and also you might be able to use better the therapists you do find.
>
> I can find out more details about Payne Whitney, if you're interested. Or Columbia Psych might be also as good.
>
> Honore
Howdy Honore,First of all we'd all damn well better hope that Tom Cruise isnt reading about all the psychiatric med pushing going on here or he is gonna go ape sh*t on our a$$e$!! (Thats a jab at him that youll get if you know of his insane/ignorant/Scientology brain washed based hatred of the "evil" psychiatrists and their mind control drugs).
As for my opinion on meds: I really hope I never came across as thinking they were useless for everyone cause I in no way believe that. They just havent worked for me.
Yes, if its possible that I find a good shrink that can properly evaluate me based on actually listening to me and questioning me (and whatever other potential testing they may do) and can come to a definite and specific diagnosis/theory and was confident that drugs X, Y or Z would help me (and could guarantee that they wouldnt cause me to gain any weight) then I cant see that I would have any objection to taking those drugs.
And thanks for the tip on Payne Whitney and for offering to find details : ) I can google it though (unless you meant more details as in only things that you could privately find out?).
Posted by Racer on March 20, 2007, at 11:32:42
In reply to Re: Another perspective » Racer, posted by Jeff Smith on March 20, 2007, at 9:36:06
Listen, Jeff, as far as the weight thing goes, I do know what you're talking about. (And the good part of this place is that you don't have to self-censor yourself on someone else's behalf -- except for staying inside the civility guidelines, which can be found http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil -- so don't let my problem stop you from stating yours.)
(By the way, I strongly urge you to check out the civility guidelines at that link, because some of what you've written here might bring on a "Please be civil" warning from a deputy or from Dr Bob himself. This is a great site, and everyone is very supportive, but the rules about civility are part of what allows us to be such a supportive community. I'd hate to see you get dinged for civility, when you just didn't know the rules.)
I have had trouble with weight gain from meds. It's ranged from 45 to 70 pounds, although to be fair I've started out underweight each time. On the other hand, that sort of weight gain has pushed me above normal weight range. It's terrible, and I won't even try to tell you how devastating it was for me. But there's been a big change in more recent times: most doctors now know that these drugs really do cause weight gain, and many doctors are finally starting to take it seriously. There are strategies that can mitigate weight gain, ranging from adding Wellbutrin -- which can also help with sexual side effects -- to adding other sorts of drugs to help mitigate the problem. Weight gain is one of those quality of life issues that lead to non-compliance, so doctors do take it seriously.
As for the stories of doctors dismissing patients' complaints, you know the joke, right? "WNL" doesn't really mean "within normal limits," it means "we never looked." (That's actually a doctor joke, they tell it themselves.)
It sounds as though both Columbia and Payne Whitney are good leads for you. I gotta agree that meds are probably a better first line for you. My own experience is that talk therapy goes much better when I'm adequately medicated -- and goes no where when I'm not.
Good luck.
Posted by Jeff Smith on March 20, 2007, at 11:49:28
In reply to Another perspective - open minded-ness » Jeff Smith, posted by one woman cine on March 20, 2007, at 8:03:47
> Jeff, I know you've said you've done the "mental health" thing for years - but I think it's always best to be open minded when things start to look bad. Taking medications other than prescribed (ie pot) will interfere with other meds. AP's are not just solely used for psychotic symptoms - they can be used for a host of other things as well.
>
> I would hope you wouldn't go into Columbia needing to be "convinced" to try something else. Is it better living like this, (& smoking pot) - than to give something else a try? One has to be willing to try some other things, other treatments - or nothing will be the same. I second the thoughts about self-fulfilling prophecy in terms of therapy - it is a relationship albeit limited.
>
> But it is a relationship that is also dependent on what you put in too. The therapist can guide you, but you have to be the one to want to do the work and do it.
>
> Therapists cannot perform miracles on patients who are unwilling - again I would urge you to be open minded. Cooperation makes therapy rewarding in terms of building a therapuetic relationship.
>
> Best of luck.Cine,
Yup, I agree/have agreed that I need to be more open minded to meds (in so many words) and Im totally open minded to other therapy but there are just certain facts that are true regarding many therapists (such as like at the Center I go to where the majority of therapists are interns who appear to be in their younger 20's and who I am not open minded to seeing). I have reasons to think they arent qualified or experienced enough to have any idea how to counsel me with my extensive mental/emotional issues... not to mention none of them stay very long so Id be changing therapists every 6 months (Im estimating). I may be wrong or I may be right about them but I dont believe my beliefs regarding them has anything to do with a need for or a lack of medication. If I needed an operation I (if I had the choice) would just prefer the older, more experienced surgeon whos done it a thousand times over the intern/new surgeon who has very little experience and is trying to recall his/her medical books and classes in order to get the job done.
And yes, of course I would go into Columbia needing to be "convinced" to try something else. If I didnt need to be convinced of things then I might blindly go around doing anything others said I should, and that would be not good. If I didnt need to be convinced then I might go to a faith healer and believe him when he says he's cured my illness... and then Id die from lack of medical attention.
Dont you need to be convinced that any drug you take will do what it claims and will be safe and is being prescribed to you by a qualified prescriber for an accurate diagnosis rather than someone who's giving you the wrong stuff for the wrong reason?
You said: "Is it better living like this, (& smoking pot) - than to give something else a try?"
Well its not better living like this than giving something else a try... but where does the "& smoking pot" part come into the "living like this" part? Pot has no effect on how I live.
Im not sure what you think, but:
-I dont smoke enormous quantities of pot. I smoke small amounts. It has nothing to do with any of my issues as Ive had the exact issues my entire life and notice no difference at all while smoking pot as opposed to life without smoking pot. Ive heard of studies saying it causes depression and Ive heard of studies that say it doesnt (and that it does benefit certain people for physical and mental problems) but Im no expert and dont study these studies.
(And for anyone who's wondering how I can afford pot when I cant afford shrinks: I cant. I smoke my roomates when he has it.)You also said "But it is a relationship that is also dependent on what you put in too. The therapist can guide you, but you have to be the one to want to do the work and do it.
Therapists cannot perform miracles on patients who are unwilling - again I would urge you to be open minded. Cooperation makes therapy rewarding in terms of building a therapuetic relationship. ".Are you suggesting that the reason Ive had no success with any of my (lets call them) talk therapists in the past has been because I have been "unwilling" and not "open minded" to them and that I havent cooperated with them?
Ultimately I agree though that I need to try something new. Im trying. : )
Posted by Jeff Smith on March 20, 2007, at 11:52:26
In reply to Re: Your Opinion: Am I Right Or Just Crazy/Irrit, posted by gazo on March 20, 2007, at 8:25:19
> I am glad you can laugh at your own anger and that you know it is there. I am being this direct because it sounds like you want actual answers.
>
> I am going to go check out that hospital site just out of curiosity. I am glad someone was able to find you something so concrete.I very much hope you get the help you want and need.
Thanks gazo, youre very sweet.
And yes, thank you... I do want actual answers and love when people are as direct as possible.
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