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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 19 of 19. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by wishingstar on October 4, 2006, at 11:56:49
You wont believe this. I ran into Anne. I was at Panera (a restaurant), sitting by myself near the door, and who walks in? She saw me and came over and sat down for a minute. Asked how I was. I said I was sure she wasnt thrilled to see me, and she said she didnt feel that way. I told her briefly how things are going and that I'm still back and forth between being angry and upset about her. She didnt say much. Asked if I've started with the new T, etc etc.
Then I asked a question I shouldnt have asked. I think the thing making it the hardest to let go is the lack of closure with her, and I truly believe a last meeting would help. Something final. So I asked her... I asked if she'd be willing to see me once, in a few weeks from now after theres a little more distance for me, just for some closure. Shne said she'd think about it. She'll THINK about it? I guess before then I was living in this delusion that she understood that shed hurt me with the way she ended, all that.. but apparently she doesnt. Why did I ask that? I regret it so much. It was like a extra couples lashes with the whip. A little more pain on top of everything else. She just doesnt care. That's all there is to it. She truly is clueless #2.
Right now, I cant decide whether to laugh or to cry.
I'm going to call her back later today, I think.. and say that I take back my question. I'm going to say that I changed my mind because I realized by her reaction that I wont get what I want from it, which would just be her understanding that it had hurt me. It wont happen. It isnt worth this.
I know you're all sick of hearing about anne and probably wonder why I keep trying when she is so obviously on her own planet. I wish I knew.
Posted by TherapyGirl on October 4, 2006, at 12:07:56
In reply to I ran into Anne hahahah, posted by wishingstar on October 4, 2006, at 11:56:49
I understand completely (as I've said before, been there, done that). It's hard to give up the illusion of a competent, caring T, no matter how badly she hurt you.
I'm really, really sorry that she'll *think* about giving you the closure you deserve. You're right -- she shouldn't have to think about it. She's thinking about doing what's easiest for her, not what's best for you, IMHO.
New T is next week, right?
Posted by wishingstar on October 4, 2006, at 12:14:05
In reply to Re: I ran into Anne hahahah » wishingstar, posted by TherapyGirl on October 4, 2006, at 12:07:56
I totally agree with you.. I think shes doing what's easiest and most comfortable for her. Sure, she doesnt want to hear why I think she messed up. I can understand that - its human. But nonetheless, shes a therapist and this is her job. She hurt me and I pay her good money not to do that, or to fix it when she does. Or did pay her, anyway. I mean, the biggest issues her and I worked on were my issues with trust and abandonment. What could possibly tell her that abandoning a person with those issues is helpful? I just cant imagine shes THIS clueless. I want to believe she is (because clueless is better than not caring) but I dont know.
I start with new T next Tuesday. I really cant wait. I need someone good so badly right now. I also see Laurie, for the second to last time, this Friday, and my new pdoc tomorrow (I've met him once.. dont really like him). At least I'm not totally alone.
This is just so unfair. I try so hard.
Posted by Poet on October 4, 2006, at 13:06:00
In reply to I ran into Anne hahahah, posted by wishingstar on October 4, 2006, at 11:56:49
Hi Wishingstar,
My T has never said *I'll think about it," but enough job interviewers, ex boyfriends and ex employers have said it to me that I believe it actually means *no chance.* I think the person saying it believes it's less painful than an outright no, but to me it's not. At least an outright no takes away all hope. It doesn't leave you clinging onto to a tiny thread of hope.
I think Clueless #2 Anne is being unfair to you. If I were you I would call her and tell her that you don't want to see her right now; you have to *think about it.*
Poet
Posted by annierose on October 4, 2006, at 16:29:27
In reply to I ran into Anne hahahah, posted by wishingstar on October 4, 2006, at 11:56:49
I agree with my fellow babblers. At least you know this, you will be better off without her type of help. She lacks empathy and seems utterly selfish. I am so sorry. As much as the intellectual part of you knows that it's for the best that you move on, your emotional self is so sad because you trusted this person with a very private part of yourself and she has betrayed that trust.
I hope you click with your new therapist. There are several current babblers with success stories when they switched therapists. Be positive!!
Good luck.
Posted by pegasus on October 4, 2006, at 19:44:11
In reply to I ran into Anne hahahah, posted by wishingstar on October 4, 2006, at 11:56:49
> I'm going to call her back later today, I think.. and say that I take back my question. I'm going to say that I changed my mind because I realized by her reaction that I wont get what I want from it, which would just be her understanding that it had hurt me. It wont happen. It isnt worth this.
>
> I know you're all sick of hearing about anne and probably wonder why I keep trying when she is so obviously on her own planet. I wish I knew.
>
>I'm actually really glad that you posted this. I'm not at all sick of hearing about Anne. I find her lack of empathy fascinating in a terrible way. I feel awful for you that you're having to deal with her incompetence.
I really like your plan to call her back and say that you rescind the question because her response makes it clear that you won't get anything helpful out of it anyway. I think she needs to hear that she has screwed up, but I hate the thought of it coming at the expense of you having a painful and unhelpful session with her. And besides, your conclusion that if she hasn't gotten it by this point, she's probably never going to get it makes sense to me. You've given her several chances already.
I'm so sorry that it just keeps being hard. I really hope your new T is wonderful, and can help you heal from the damage Anne has done.
p
Posted by wishingstar on October 4, 2006, at 21:24:20
In reply to Re: I ran into Anne hahahah » wishingstar, posted by Poet on October 4, 2006, at 13:06:00
You know what.. you're right! I've even used that line before.. "I'll think about it" when trying to avoid saying no. I dont know how that didnt click for me, but youre exactly right. I think thats what she was trying to say, but was trying to avoid the emotional wreck she knew I'd be if she said no straight out. I'd rather just have one major hurt than this lingering pain though.
I love your suggestion about saying I have to *think* about seeing her. I'd absolutely do it, if only that wasnt exactly what she wants (not to have to deal with me on this issue). I am fully planning to give her some sort of response though. I just havent decided the best way to do it yet. I'm definitely not against sarcastic and biting though! :)
Posted by wishingstar on October 4, 2006, at 21:29:27
In reply to Re: I ran into Anne hahahah » wishingstar, posted by annierose on October 4, 2006, at 16:29:27
You're right... I am better off without her "help". Some piece of me knows that. I definitely KNOW that I dont want to go back to full time therapy with her. But this crazy part of me just wont let go of the hope that shell hear me, just this once. But in reality, if she never has before, she isnt going to start now. I just cant help but wonder.. is she really so incompetent that she doesnt realize what shes doing could be hurtful (or thinks I'm being unreasonable in asking for it), or does she just not care? I wish I knew. I'd like to believe shes just so out there she doesnt realize it, but how could she not at this point?
In an odd way, it helps me to hear you (and the others) say that she seems unempathetic and selfish. It means this really is HER issue. She really is just bad at this. It's not my fault she's not terribly competent in some ways, and I didnt do anything wrong. I'm not asking too much or being too needy - thats probably the biggest part. Thanks for saying that.
The new T seemed very nice on the phone. I really hope I click with her as well. I could use a good success right about now.
Posted by wishingstar on October 4, 2006, at 21:37:32
In reply to Re: I ran into Anne hahahah, posted by pegasus on October 4, 2006, at 19:44:11
This might sound odd, but I just have this urge to hug for you what you posted. I'm not a touchy person in general. But I feel so heard, and I really appreciate that. I know you all understand.
Incompetence. That's a hard word for me to swallow. Not that I dont believe it... I guess I dont want to believe it. I mean, does this really qualify as incompetence? It's certainly done a LOT more harm than good, so I guess yes, that qualifies. Thats strange to admit to myself, about someone I trusted so much and tried so hard to get to like me and care. But her lack of empathy and understanding isnt my fault. I keep repeating that only to remind myself.
I was planning to make that call this afternoon (to tell her nevermind), but decided to put it off a day or two. I dont want to leave a message on impulse and later regret what I did (or didnt and should have) said. I want to feel more clear about this before I react. Because you're right, she wont get it if she hasnt by now. I think a small part of me, even now, hopes that I'll leave a message in a day or so and she'll get it and respond. How dense am I? Haha.. I know better than that. But I still hope. Just like with my parents. I still hope.
Anne really has done damage. In the end, she has done more harm than good. I want her to know that. Mean as it sounds, I want her to feel bad about it. That's terrible, but its the truth. How can you be a therapist and be this clueless and/or uncaring? How can she possibly do it? Or do I hold some special place in the list of clients-who-drive-anne-crazy and its a response to that? Either way its unacceptable.. but I just dont get it. This is just crazy. What else could I have possibly done?
Posted by Lindenblüte on October 4, 2006, at 23:10:32
In reply to Re: I ran into Anne hahahah » pegasus, posted by wishingstar on October 4, 2006, at 21:37:32
"Hi Anne, this is Wishingstar. I was surprised to see you at Panera. I hope you enjoyed your lunch. I have decided that you haven't been a good therapist for me, and I just wanted you to know that. I don't need an entire session with you to express that. It would be a waste of my time, and probably yours as well. I just wanted you to know that I felt abandoned by you when I was rapidly deteriorating. I came to you for help, which is what people need to do when they're in crisis. Instead, I had to go to the hospital when you were unavailable to me. I was still willing to give you a chance, even after that betrayal in my trust, but you decided to drop me as your client. I hope one day you will have the maturity and experience to look back on this episode and learn something from it. I would hate for any other human being on this Earth to have to go through this kind of pain. Part of me still strongly wishes that things had gone much better between us, but I am learning that it's more important to take care of myself now, and I'm realizing that there is no way to patch the damage done to our therapeutic relationship. I have been in contact with a new Therapist. While I am optimistic about my future, I just wanted you to know that I'm going to be hurting for a long time about the way that my last Therapist handled my problems."
Okay-- This is ME, putting words into your mouth, but I don't think you're crazy at all for feeling major conflict about seeing Anne again. Part of you trusts her, part of you distrusts her, part of you wants to fix things and make a happy clean termination, part of you is furious at her neglect of your care during your crisis. Honestly, you'd be crazy if you DIDN't feel some conflict!
Sorry to go off on a rant. I have some strong feelings about my oldT, and yet I think that he really really helped me feel better, never violated my trust, and handled many many situations with incredible skill and sense. Plus, we got along really well on a personal basis, even though I found him very intimidating at times (figuring out WHY I had these transferrence issues was they key to me understanding the need to move on to a newT).
And, from someone who terminated a mere 2 weeks ago tomorrow, and has already got good feelings about her newT, I think and I HOPE that things are going to turn around for you soon, Wishingstar. My newT had a wonderfully kind voice on the phone. I just felt like it was going to be better.
(((((WishingStar))))))
Posted by wishingstar on October 5, 2006, at 15:41:36
In reply to Re: I ran into Anne hahahah » wishingstar, posted by Lindenblüte on October 4, 2006, at 23:10:32
I love your message for her! It's really quite perfect. I wish I had the guts to say it in those words.. but some part of me still cant be as blunt as I'd like to be, mostly for fear of being "mean". But heck, I'm getting braver and braver (and more blunt!) with her every day... at least I got something out of therapy with her! Hah. I'm going to wait and talk to Laurie tomorrow about how to respond to Anne, but unless she has an idea I like better, I may take what you wrote and use it as a guide, just change it to be in my words. Assuming thats ok with you of course.
Some part of me has finally come to terms with the fact that Anne is just clueless and no matter what I say, I wont get a reaction that feels supportive. I guess that's a good thing.
I'm so glad to hear youre already feeling good about the new T. That is one of the greatest feelings in the world.. when you just click with someone. I'm crossing my fingers that will happen for me next week.
Posted by Lindenblüte on October 5, 2006, at 17:30:57
In reply to Re: I ran into Anne hahahah » Lindenblüte, posted by wishingstar on October 5, 2006, at 15:41:36
> I love your message for her! It's really quite perfect. I wish I had the guts to say it in those words.. but some part of me still cant be as blunt as I'd like to be, mostly for fear of being "mean". But heck, I'm getting braver and braver (and more blunt!) with her every day... at least I got something out of therapy with her! Hah. I'm going to wait and talk to Laurie tomorrow about how to respond to Anne, but unless she has an idea I like better, I may take what you wrote and use it as a guide, just change it to be in my words. Assuming thats ok with you of course
YES- of course you MUST use your own words. You certainly don't need my permission to change/modify as you see fit.
I'm a total scaredy-cat too. It would take a lot of courage (whiskey?) for me to dare leave someone a message like that. So, you get major props for even calling her up and saying-- no thank you for the session.
The other stuff is just icing on the cake. Let us know how things go with your newT. I'm excited for you, but I know that it's a really tricky transition to figure out who knows what about you, and which part of the story you have told to one T and not to another.
when you wish upon a star... makes no difference who you are!
-Li
> Some part of me has finally come to terms with the fact that Anne is just clueless and no matter what I say, I wont get a reaction that feels supportive. I guess that's a good thing.
>
> I'm so glad to hear youre already feeling good about the new T. That is one of the greatest feelings in the world.. when you just click with someone. I'm crossing my fingers that will happen for me next week.
Posted by wishingstar on October 6, 2006, at 18:24:07
In reply to Re: I ran into Anne hahahah » wishingstar, posted by Lindenblüte on October 5, 2006, at 17:30:57
I saw Laurie this afternoon. Overall, it didnt go as well as I'd hoped... I really just needed to cry and sit with the pain today, and she really wanted to talk about how far I've come/strengths and practical solutions. It sounds crazy to not want to talk about strengths and successes I guess, but sometimes they just dont matter in the midst of the pain. It did help some though. I dont think she realized how bad I was truly hurting and I didnt let her in enough, so its mostly my fault.
We did, of course, talk about my run-in with Anne. I said she was going to kick me when I told her what I'd said to Anne, but when I did, she said she didnt know why I even thought that. I told her I was afraid she'd say I was just drawing it out with Anne, but she didnt. Thank goodness she understood that. She understood how important this termination/closure has become.
She basically said the exact same thing all of you have said. (Hey, maybe we should all be Ts? hah!) We talked quite a bit about how regardless of how Anne is acting now, it's not about me. This is about her. I tried and tried so hard to connect with her and for some reason, it just wouldnt happen. Laurie tried to stay a little more neutrsl than I was she would have (of course I wanted her to hate anne too!) but I guess I understand that, seeing as how she's only getting one side of the story and everything. I just hope that doesnt mean she doesnt believe me completely.. but that wasnt the feeling I got from her. Unfortunately we ran out of time before we ever got to discuss how I should handle this now.. what kind of message to leave for Anne, what to do next time I run into her (because its bound to happen), etc. The parallels between the major crisis of my childhood and what Anne is doing are amazing.. we also talked about that some. It's really reopened a major wound for me. But Anne isnt going to get that. There is no way I can be clearer with her. This is about her now. Laurie and I did some hypothesizing about what Annes issue might be.. from something going on in her life right now (because there really was a turning point in all this.. it wasnt always bad with her), to not knowing how to handle suicidal behavior (she'd better learn if she's a T), to her feeling ineffective and not knowing how to help me. I dont know. I guess in the end, it doesnt matter.
I'm going to leave a message in a day or so saying nevermind about the session. I'm still debating what to say. I want to mention that I feel like her saying "Ill think about it" when we saw each other said more to me than she could say in an entire session, and that her unwillingness to give me any clousure has been very painful. There is a lot more I'd LIKE to say, but I dont know how far to go. Maybe it isnt worth it to say more than that? What do you all think?
Posted by wishingstar on October 8, 2006, at 21:02:01
In reply to Laurie's take on all this, posted by wishingstar on October 6, 2006, at 18:24:07
Just a final "update" on this situation. After giving myself several days to calm down, I just called Anne and left her a voicemail. I said most of what I wanted to say and I feel like I was honest yet not mean or unfair (even though I had a lot of mean things I would have liked to say too).
I said something like this...
"Hi Anne, this is wishingstar. I know you werent expecting to hear from me this soon, but I was just calling to take back the suggestion I made at Panera the other day about having a final termination session. I've done a lot of thinking and I feel like your reaction to my suggestion told me a lot and made me realize that you just dont get it and theres just nothing else I can do about that. I dont mean for that to be a personal attack, but its true. I've realized that whatever your resistance is to having a final termination in a traditional way is about you. It's not about me. I've tried everything I can and it's just about you, so there's nothing else I can do. But that doesnt mean it's not still painful. So I guess I just wanted to take back that suggestion and I'm sorry it didnt work out better. I hope you're doing well. Thanks. Bye."
I think it came out good. I said what I wanted to say, but tried to do it in a way that wouldnt just raise all her defenses and make her say "pftt, this is all just her issues" any more than she already thinks. I want her to really consider that SHE has an issue here too. Because this really is about her now. I believe that.
Of course, as always, theres a tiny part of me that hopes she'll call back. I'm 99.9% sure she will not, and really, that's probably for the best anyway. It's hard to let go of that hope.
Posted by Lindenblüte on October 8, 2006, at 21:22:36
In reply to left a voicemail for Anne, posted by wishingstar on October 8, 2006, at 21:02:01
Wishinstar,
You've got a great attitude, and you handled this very well. like a 100% healthy, mature, thoughtful, sensitive adult.I'm so impressed
-Li
Posted by wishingstar on October 9, 2006, at 12:07:06
In reply to Re: left a voicemail for Anne » wishingstar, posted by Lindenblüte on October 8, 2006, at 21:22:36
thank you. that means a lot to me, believe it or not. im starting to fear that I'M being the crazy one here, but I KNOW it's not true. you all help so much.
I read a great article last night called "When the Therapist Needs Therapy". Fitting. :)
Posted by TherapyGirl on October 9, 2006, at 12:59:19
In reply to left a voicemail for Anne, posted by wishingstar on October 8, 2006, at 21:02:01
I am *so* proud of you. You said what you wanted and needed to say, you said it beautifully, you were much more gracious and diplomatic than I would have been. WAY TO GO!!!!!!!!!!
And if Anne still doesn't get it, it's her loss.
((((((((((((WishingStar)))))))))))
Posted by wishingstar on October 9, 2006, at 14:37:02
In reply to Re: left a voicemail for Anne » wishingstar, posted by TherapyGirl on October 9, 2006, at 12:59:19
thank you therapygirl.. you saying that really means a lot to me.
I hope Anne gets it. But you're right, if she doesnt.. that's her issue. She needs to get herself together and go back to therapist school if she doesnt.
Tomorrow is new T! I will let you all know how it goes.
Posted by TherapyGirl on October 9, 2006, at 15:41:00
In reply to Re: left a voicemail for Anne » TherapyGirl, posted by wishingstar on October 9, 2006, at 14:37:02
Please do let us know how it goes. I have a good feeling about this one...
This is the end of the thread.
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