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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 35 to 59 of 59. Go back in thread:
Posted by muffled on December 3, 2005, at 13:18:02
In reply to I think someone asked me in another thread..., posted by gardenergirl on December 3, 2005, at 13:13:15
That was good, if somewhat challenging to read. I think its good to see things from both directions. Our T 's are people too. Thanks.
Posted by happyflower on December 3, 2005, at 13:47:55
In reply to Re: I think someone asked me in another thread... » gardenergirl, posted by muffled on December 3, 2005, at 13:18:02
> That was good, if somewhat challenging to read. I think its good to see things from both directions. Our T 's are people too. Thanks.
My T is far from perfect and his siblings who are also T's are a lot worse off than me, and they are T's! So they are all human, and from every background just like everyone else. Some are ethical, some wished they were, and some aren't and don't care.
Posted by crushedout on December 3, 2005, at 14:27:36
In reply to I think someone asked me in another thread..., posted by gardenergirl on December 3, 2005, at 13:13:15
Totally wasn't TMI. It's interesting. I bet it is common for female therapists to be more comfortable with female desire than male desire, and that makes total sense to me. Male desire, historically, is much more threatening. Any many women have personal histories that make it threatening to them in particular.
I wondered about this when I told my therapist about my feelings for her. Funny thing is, I told her that I worried I was making her feeling objectified, the way men often make me feel. She clearly didn't feel so, however, and I guessed that that may have been partly due to the fact that I was a woman. Somehow, it feels less objectifying to be desired by a woman, or is it that being objectified by a woman feels less uncomfortable? Just wondering aloud.
Posted by Dr. Bob on December 3, 2005, at 16:33:25
In reply to I think someone asked me in another thread..., posted by gardenergirl on December 3, 2005, at 13:13:15
> Gosh, I wish we had a way to personally "flag" posts we want to follow up on but can't at the moment.
Bookmark them?
Bob
Posted by crushedout on December 3, 2005, at 16:36:05
In reply to Re: a way to personally flag posts, posted by Dr. Bob on December 3, 2005, at 16:33:25
i thought sher poeple meant so that other people would know she was planning to respond.
Posted by Pfinstegg on December 3, 2005, at 17:53:30
In reply to I think someone asked me in another thread..., posted by gardenergirl on December 3, 2005, at 13:13:15
Responding to an earlier part of this thread, I was startled when my analyst offered the information that he never spoke about his patients to his wife in any way- not by disguising their identity, or making general comments- just in no way at all. My immediate thought was that it must be quite hard and un-natural, but, as I thought about it more, I realized that it is the utmost in respect, security and privacy that a therapist can give- sort of like having a husband with top secret clearance (which I have!) I don't know what it is that I don't know..
Posted by crushedout on December 3, 2005, at 17:56:32
In reply to Re: a way to personally flag posts » Dr. Bob, posted by crushedout on December 3, 2005, at 16:36:05
typing malfunction. i was trying to writei thought she meant so that other people would know she was planning to respond.
> i thought sher poeple meant so that other people would know she was planning to respond.
Posted by crushedout on December 3, 2005, at 17:58:18
In reply to What they say about us to their spouses.., posted by Pfinstegg on December 3, 2005, at 17:53:30
I agree, Pfinstegg, that does seem very respectful of the clients and I truly believe it's the right thing to do. Not sure I could do it myself, but that's part of why I'm not a therapist. And I'm sure not all therapists can or do do that (or perhaps think it's necessary or important), but I bet yours really does.> Responding to an earlier part of this thread, I was startled when my analyst offered the information that he never spoke about his patients to his wife in any way- not by disguising their identity, or making general comments- just in no way at all. My immediate thought was that it must be quite hard and un-natural, but, as I thought about it more, I realized that it is the utmost in respect, security and privacy that a therapist can give- sort of like having a husband with top secret clearance (which I have!) I don't know what it is that I don't know..
Posted by happyflower on December 3, 2005, at 18:33:44
In reply to What they say about us to their spouses.., posted by Pfinstegg on December 3, 2005, at 17:53:30
My T told me in one of my first sessions that he tries not to bring his "work" home with him, which means he tries not to talk about his clients even to his wife.
Posted by daisym on December 3, 2005, at 19:44:29
In reply to Re: What they say about us to their spouses.. » Pfinstegg, posted by happyflower on December 3, 2005, at 18:33:44
I'm sure it depends somewhat on personality and on who they have to process stuff with. Since my therapist is in practice with partners, one of whom is his wife, I'm sure they "case conference" to some extent, just as a practical matter. Some of you may remember that last year at this time I had the experience of walking into the waiting room and there was a friend of mine and her daughter. The daughter was seeing one of the partners. It bothered me a lot, which surprised me since my friend knew about my therapist. But what really upset me was when the other therapist referred them for family therapy to my therapist's wife. I just couldn't handle it but I also felt horrible for being so selfish. My therapist asked for my permission to talk to his wife about it before the other family got started with her (I told him about the referral before they even called) and ultimately it didn't work out in her schedule. But it was sticky -- and I hated that they needed to talk about me.
I do know as someone who supervises home visitors that it is important to talk about the work that is happening with clients so that any frustrations or over involvement with a family can be dealt with. Still - I hate the thought of having my feelings discussed with detachment and clinical terms. I'd rather not think about it.
Posted by gardenergirl on December 3, 2005, at 22:49:12
In reply to Re: a way to personally flag posts, posted by Dr. Bob on December 3, 2005, at 16:33:25
I'll give that a try, thanks.
And crushed, actually, I was thinking of how I flag emails as a note to myself for later follow up. Although since I'm not so good at getting back to them, maybe it's not such a good idea.
I need a better system or more time. :(
gg
Posted by gardenergirl on December 3, 2005, at 22:50:22
In reply to Re: I think someone asked me in another thread... » gardenergirl, posted by muffled on December 3, 2005, at 13:18:02
> That was good, if somewhat challenging to read. I think its good to see things from both directions. Our T 's are people too. Thanks.
Just curious, but what made it challenging? Sometimes I worry that I ramble too much, and it gets to hard to follow. (Just ask Racer, my conversations are like that, too!)
gg
Posted by gardenergirl on December 3, 2005, at 22:51:21
In reply to Re: I think someone asked me in another thread... » muffled, posted by happyflower on December 3, 2005, at 13:47:55
>So they are all human, and from every background just like everyone else. Some are ethical, some wished they were, and some aren't and don't care.
Which is unfortunate. I suppose we could also add: Some don't know they are not ethical. :(
gg
Posted by gardenergirl on December 3, 2005, at 22:53:06
In reply to Re: I think someone asked me in another thread... » gardenergirl, posted by crushedout on December 3, 2005, at 14:27:36
> Male desire, historically, is much more threatening. Any many women have personal histories that make it threatening to them in particular.
Yeah, that's part of it for me, unfortunately.
>
> Somehow, it feels less objectifying to be desired by a woman, or is it that being objectified by a woman feels less uncomfortable? Just wondering aloud.I wonder if perhaps it's that women are more likely (in a general sense) to be emotionally engaged. That might cut into the objectifying aspect enough to overcome it?
gg
Posted by muffled on December 4, 2005, at 0:51:42
In reply to Re: I think someone asked me in another thread... » muffled, posted by gardenergirl on December 3, 2005, at 22:50:22
> > That was good, if somewhat challenging to read. I think its good to see things from both directions. Our T 's are people too. Thanks.
>
> Just curious, but what made it challenging? Sometimes I worry that I ramble too much, and it gets to hard to follow. (Just ask Racer, my conversations are like that, too!)
>
***Not sure. Maybe more than one thing. Proly mostly T safety. I worry bout my T's safety. Her office is a little isolated. We have touched on this ever so briefly before.
My T is very nice. Wouldn't want her to get hurt is all.
That a man client would view her as meat bothers me. I think I just get too protective of others. I worry too much.
Muffled
Posted by gardenergirl on December 4, 2005, at 12:47:04
In reply to Re: I think someone asked me in another thread... » gardenergirl, posted by muffled on December 4, 2005, at 0:51:42
Thanks for explaining. That's actually one thing that a few supervisors HAVE done a good job with...making sure that I am aware of my surroundings and such in the event that there is some kind of threat. When I did testing on a regular basis, we were always reminded to sit closest to the door so that we could get out of the room quickly if need be.
But I do understand the worry. Sounds like you care about your T a lot. :)
gg
Posted by muffled on December 4, 2005, at 13:04:35
In reply to Re: I think someone asked me in another thread... » muffled, posted by gardenergirl on December 4, 2005, at 12:47:04
> Thanks for explaining. That's actually one thing that a few supervisors HAVE done a good job with...making sure that I am aware of my surroundings and such in the event that there is some kind of threat. When I did testing on a regular basis, we were always reminded to sit closest to the door so that we could get out of the room quickly if need be.
>
> But I do understand the worry. Sounds like you care about your T a lot. :)
>
> ggSee, thats exactly one thing I noticed, she sits with me btwn her and door, dunno if thats what she does with all?
She seems way too trusting. Obvo. I would never hurt her, but B4 she knew that for sure she still sat there. But i guess she's been trained too.
Maybe she has a black belt in karate!
Thx for reply.
Muffled
Posted by one woman cine on December 4, 2005, at 17:09:16
In reply to Re: I think someone asked me in another thread... » gardenergirl, posted by muffled on December 4, 2005, at 13:04:35
DISCLAIMER:
This is strictly my personal opinion.I think what began as a thread about love in therapy has turned to the idea of privacy. I totally agree that confidentiality and privacy are sacred tenets (or should be) in therapy. I really try to refrain from inserting my experience here, b/c I'm realize I'm in the minority and don't want my statements to be viewed as how therapists/therapy are. It is only my experience and opinion. But having said that, my SO doesn't discuss what goes on in work & we both want it that way for a variety of reasons which I really won't get into. But she's also human & can't just switch off when she comes home from work. (& I don't think I would want her to.) & let me also add, that whatever goes awry in therapy, lies solely in hands of the therapist. It is never the patients fault.
But I will say this about privacy, how would anyone here feel if the shoe is on the other foot & let me explain. (But let me first preface that by saying (and also emphasizing) everyone's therapy & whatever "arrangement" they have is between them & their therapist & what works for one person does not necessarily work for another.)
I value my privacy highly & my private life with my SO. Theoretically, how would you feel (you in the perjorative sense) if you had your spouses or SO's patients calling you at home (the age of caller ID)or repeatedly driving past your home? Or threats being made? How can their privacy be respected if they want to make themself known? I feel like my personal boundaries are being violated, maybe maliciously, maybe not. But it also creates a traingular relationship tangentially that I want no part of. & maybe the person doing this is curious or whatever, I am making no judgement on them. But it definitely has an deleterious effect on me. (& I think this happens, I am not faulting anyone.)
Now I understand, & I'm not including people who have arrangements with their therapists to call them & that's agreed upon by both parties. This is perfectly OK. But what happens when its not?
& I think, just my opinion, but maybe the person who engages in this is really not aware of the feelings of the other party such as myself - as it should be when they are in therapy in private. But this is an example of how boundaries get to be fuzzy and uncomfortable when the "therapy" relationship begins to shift out of the frame.
I guess I also feel uneasy with statements made in previous threads, maybe because they appear to me to be graphic and strike me as rather provocative. I understand there is quite a difference between discussion and action - & maybe it's the idea of the impending action which is uncomfortable for me. I will have to think of that further, I can't really articulate what I want to say about it (if anything at all) quite yet.
So I think privacy and respect goes both ways & that needs to be considered.
Posted by Tamar on December 4, 2005, at 19:52:22
In reply to Privacy boundaries, posted by one woman cine on December 4, 2005, at 17:09:16
Hi Onewomancine,
You have some interesting perspectives. You asked how we’d feel… My partner isn’t a therapist, so it’s hard to know how I’d feel if his patients called our house or drove by it. I don’t think it would bother me much, though it might depend what kind of patients he worked with. Making threats is a different thing entirely: that’s a matter for the police. And I don’t think I’d like anyone to park their car outside my house for a couple of hours and keep watch. But I’d have an answering machine to handle phone calls and I’d probably barely notice drive-bys. Having said that, I’m not a particularly private person and when I do want privacy it’s about the privacy of my thoughts rather than a private environment.
> & I think, just my opinion, but maybe the person who engages in this is really not aware of the feelings of the other party such as myself - as it should be when they are in therapy in private. But this is an example of how boundaries get to be fuzzy and uncomfortable when the "therapy" relationship begins to shift out of the frame.
I have to say, I don’t think driving past someone’s house is any kind of boundary violation. Phone calls might be, if they haven’t been agreed. If a patient is driving by a lot then perhaps the therapist needs to raise it in therapy. But I suspect that any patient who drives by a lot is probably not in a position to consider the feelings of the therapist’s SO.
> I guess I also feel uneasy with statements made in previous threads, maybe because they appear to me to be graphic and strike me as rather provocative. I understand there is quite a difference between discussion and action - & maybe it's the idea of the impending action which is uncomfortable for me. I will have to think of that further, I can't really articulate what I want to say about it (if anything at all) quite yet.
Maybe it’s because fantasies can be very powerful; even other people’s fantasies? I’m not sure which threads or statements you’re referring to, but are you sure the action really is impending and not simply imagined? I look forward to hearing your thoughts if you decide to share them!
> So I think privacy and respect goes both ways & that needs to be considered.
Yes, although I suppose I wonder to what extent the feelings of the therapist’s SO can be of any consequence in therapy. If the therapist’s own feelings are rarely expressed and the focus is on the patient’s feelings, it’s a little difficult to see where the therapist’s SO comes in. I think that’s especially true when there are feelings of love in therapy. I think it’s essential for patients to have the freedom to disregard entirely the possible feelings of the therapist’s SO. For example, I wouldn’t normally tell a married man I love him (in a romantic or sexual way), but in therapy it *has* to be OK to do that; I can’t let any concern for his partner’s feelings inhibit my discussion of my feelings. And since feelings can’t be confined to the therapist’s office, the patient’s disregard for the feelings of the SO is carried out into the world (and possibly past the therapist’s house). And I think that also needs to be OK, as long as the patient isn’t making contact with the therapist in inappropriate ways (like phoning without prior agreement).
Certainly patients shouldn’t be encouraged to stalk their therapists, but they do need to be allowed to work through their attachment. Maybe it’s partly a matter of expectation; I do think that therapists should probably expect to have patients drive by sometimes.
Incidentally, I’m a teacher and occasionally students goes to some lengths to find out my phone number and phone me outside of working hours. I don’t know if they drive by my house; I’ve never noticed! But I figure it goes with the territory; this is the sort of thing that can happen. It irks me a little, but I don’t really feel my privacy has been invaded. However, as I said before, I’m not a terribly private person.
Just my two cents.
Tamar
Posted by orchid on December 4, 2005, at 23:57:04
In reply to Privacy boundaries, posted by one woman cine on December 4, 2005, at 17:09:16
I completely understand your view point. But I also have to say, the nature of the job is somewhat like that, and it is the therapist's/psychiatrist's job to explain things to their SO or Spouse and deal with it.
It is like being a film star - you will get mad fans, and you cannot stop the fans. When a therapist/psychiatrist does therapy, they are very well aware, that they start playing with a person's emotions, and that at any stage, it could get out of hand. They need to be adequately prepared for it, and prepare their families for it. It is like being a policeman. The SO of a policeman can't expect him to return home safely every night.
That said, I also think it is the duty of the patients to not call at the house, or stalk a T, or engage in otherwise criminal behavior which will cause a T and his family their happiness and peace of mind. But driving past is something which maybe many clients may not be able to resist. Same thing goes for googling a T and trying to find information. Both are somehow considered acceptable, because of their harmless nature.
If you also don't feel you are capable of dealing with it, you should ask your SO to talk to you about all the perils of the profession. And then decide if you are upto it.
> DISCLAIMER:
> This is strictly my personal opinion.
>
> I think what began as a thread about love in therapy has turned to the idea of privacy. I totally agree that confidentiality and privacy are sacred tenets (or should be) in therapy. I really try to refrain from inserting my experience here, b/c I'm realize I'm in the minority and don't want my statements to be viewed as how therapists/therapy are. It is only my experience and opinion. But having said that, my SO doesn't discuss what goes on in work & we both want it that way for a variety of reasons which I really won't get into. But she's also human & can't just switch off when she comes home from work. (& I don't think I would want her to.) & let me also add, that whatever goes awry in therapy, lies solely in hands of the therapist. It is never the patients fault.
>
> But I will say this about privacy, how would anyone here feel if the shoe is on the other foot & let me explain. (But let me first preface that by saying (and also emphasizing) everyone's therapy & whatever "arrangement" they have is between them & their therapist & what works for one person does not necessarily work for another.)
>
> I value my privacy highly & my private life with my SO. Theoretically, how would you feel (you in the perjorative sense) if you had your spouses or SO's patients calling you at home (the age of caller ID)or repeatedly driving past your home? Or threats being made? How can their privacy be respected if they want to make themself known? I feel like my personal boundaries are being violated, maybe maliciously, maybe not. But it also creates a traingular relationship tangentially that I want no part of. & maybe the person doing this is curious or whatever, I am making no judgement on them. But it definitely has an deleterious effect on me. (& I think this happens, I am not faulting anyone.)
>
> Now I understand, & I'm not including people who have arrangements with their therapists to call them & that's agreed upon by both parties. This is perfectly OK. But what happens when its not?
>
> & I think, just my opinion, but maybe the person who engages in this is really not aware of the feelings of the other party such as myself - as it should be when they are in therapy in private. But this is an example of how boundaries get to be fuzzy and uncomfortable when the "therapy" relationship begins to shift out of the frame.
>
> I guess I also feel uneasy with statements made in previous threads, maybe because they appear to me to be graphic and strike me as rather provocative. I understand there is quite a difference between discussion and action - & maybe it's the idea of the impending action which is uncomfortable for me. I will have to think of that further, I can't really articulate what I want to say about it (if anything at all) quite yet.
>
> So I think privacy and respect goes both ways & that needs to be considered.
>
>
>
>
Posted by daisym on December 5, 2005, at 0:04:15
In reply to Re: Privacy boundaries » one woman cine, posted by Tamar on December 4, 2005, at 19:52:22
I asked my therapist how he feels about his wife's patients and he said he thinks it is different because they are both therapists and have the same basic understanding of the ebb and flow of things. Sometimes there are lots of phone calls (like the Holidays) and other times it is quiet. I asked him how if it bothered him that some of her patients might have intense feelings for her, like I had for him. He said no, because of how they were together. They trusted each other.
He then suggested we look at the triangle I was trying to build and compare it to me, my mom and my dad. So I think it might be if a client is bringing in his/her SO or the therapist's SO that triangulation be considered.
I do agree that there is a level of respect that can and should be expected in any relationship. A friend of mine is fond of saying "intensity not volume" when it comes to expressing anger in therapy.
Posted by one woman cine on December 5, 2005, at 6:33:02
In reply to Re: Privacy boundaries » Tamar, posted by daisym on December 5, 2005, at 0:04:15
Thank you for bringing up the idea of triangulation. It was what I was trying to say, but I took the scenic route. I totally don't have a problem with really any aspect of her work, including the emergency phone calls etc. etc. I hope I made that clear. I do feel uncomfortable with being brought into "their" relationship that I consider between them and private. & that happens when the above things occur.
Posted by one woman cine on December 5, 2005, at 6:50:36
In reply to Re: Privacy boundaries » one woman cine, posted by Tamar on December 4, 2005, at 19:52:22
I guess I was advocating for the mutual respect the patient has for the therapist, not the SO. The SO is not in issue in therapy, until it pertains to triangulation.
I think it's fine to work through attachment, but not when it involves more than you & your therapist.
I'm not uncomfortable with fantasies, per se. But I was refining this idea last night. The prior threads I was referring to including "joking" about the therapist. But I realized what made me uncomfortable was the manner in which some of the "joking" occurred. & a joke to me, as I understand, is joke if the parties involved thinks its a joke - & thinks it's funny. But I don't think you can really joke about someone who may not share your humor - ie joking about your therapist, when he/she may not know. I'm wondering if the therapist would think it was funny if they knew about the comments being made about them. I don't think, if the shoe were on the other foot - anyone, me included, would like my therapist making jokes about me at all, in any context. I think then; it's no longer a joke, it's a joke one makes at someones elses expense.
I think the golden rule applies even in therapy, treat people the way you want to be treated.
Posted by sleepygirl on December 5, 2005, at 22:18:23
In reply to Re: Privacy boundaries » Tamar, posted by one woman cine on December 5, 2005, at 6:50:36
boundaries and privacy and all - yikes!!. I am afraid so many times that I will do the wrong thing. Therapy brings up so much, how can anyone ever learn to deal with it all?? so many years..and each one teaches me that I didn't know much before. Sometimes caring at all is frightening. I'd like to see the rule book please.
-anxious girl in need of concrete answers
Posted by muffled on December 6, 2005, at 15:48:06
In reply to such a sensitive topic..., posted by sleepygirl on December 5, 2005, at 22:18:23
This is the end of the thread.
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