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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 16 of 16. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by crushedout on July 29, 2005, at 14:27:04
Dear Ms. Lott,
I read your book after it was recommended to me on this site a couple years ago when I was in the middle of a therapy that ended up being rather destructive for me. It is a very valuable book and thank you so much for creating it for us.
I don't know how to formulate this question succinctly and I also think I already know the answer but I'd be interested in hearing any thoughts you might have given your breadth of knowledge and experience. I had a therapist who crossed boundaries with me by telling me details about her personal life (including problems with her husband), telling me she was attracted to me (although she said we could never act on it -- I was openly in love with her), and I guess the worst violation was when she made and gave me a mix CD with some romantic songs on it.
I actually loaned her your book to read (she'd never even heard of it) and she read it slowly, told me it made her feel bad about stuff she had done, and also said she didn't agree with you entirely. (I can't remember why exactly -- this was a long time ago.) Anyway, after 2 and a half tortuous years, I finally got a new therapist and left her. This was about nine months ago. My new therapist has much better boundaries and is much better at helping me understand my transference and kind of keep it in perspective.
But I still think about the old one a lot and I promised her a letter explaining why I left. (She had no idea, if you can believe it. She thought she had said something to p*ss me off in the last session.) I know I don't actually owe her this letter, but sometimes I want to write it, either for closure, or to teach her something, or to perhaps strike up a nontherapeutic relationship with her (friendship? lovers? something in between? I'm not sure). I recognize that some of these reasons may be good and others not so good, so I'm not sure whether to do it. I think about it (and I still think about her) all the time.
Any thoughts on this? Advice? I've written many letters that have never been sent and I've talked about this with my new therapist also. She kind of leaves it up to me and tries to explore my motives and what I see happening. But I'm still always left in a quandary.
Thanks so much for being here.
crushedout
Posted by crushedout on July 29, 2005, at 14:36:02
In reply to Lott: Keeping in touch after a bad therapy (long), posted by crushedout on July 29, 2005, at 14:27:04
I should add that my former therapist thought of her boundary-crossings as simply her therapeutic style and that this was one of a number of good ways to do therapy. I'm not disputing that it might not work for some patients (divulging so much about your life, talking about your own feelings in relations to the patient, etc.), but given her knowledge of what I was going through, it certainly didn't seem very smart.I guess I'm digressing (and getting angry in the process). Lots of unresolved issues here. :(
Posted by crushedout on July 29, 2005, at 14:36:39
In reply to Lott: p.s. » crushedout, posted by crushedout on July 29, 2005, at 14:36:02
Posted by deborah anne lott on July 30, 2005, at 17:32:56
In reply to Lott: Keeping in touch after a bad therapy (long), posted by crushedout on July 29, 2005, at 14:27:04
First of all, good for you getting out of a therapy that was going waaaaay south. You said that you already know what I would say about your therapist confiding about her personal life, telling you she was attracted to you, and making you a mix CD with romantic songs. Egads!!! I can see why she wouldn't agree with what I say in my book.
So now you've got two competing fantasies going -- it sounds like, writing a letter that will a) somehow enlighten her and turn her into a good therapist (very unlikely, if she hasn't gotten it by now, she's not going to get it); or b)alternately turn her into a lover/friend. If you write her a letter she will probably write back and something will happen but I can almost guarantee you that she will not become a better therapist because of it, and that she would probably not be any better as a friend/lover than she was as a therapist. My guess is that she'd be as insensitive and narcissistic as a friend/lover as she is as a therapist. Anyway, that's what I think and congratulations on getting out of there and into something better.
Posted by deborah anne lott on July 30, 2005, at 17:39:39
In reply to Lott: p.s. » crushedout, posted by crushedout on July 29, 2005, at 14:36:02
I hate to be harsh but your former therapist is, to be charitable, very misinformed, undereducated, or inexperienced. It's very easy to rationalize self-indulgent behavior which is what she exhibited -- to confide attraction, to give clients lovesong CDs -- as "therapeutic style." That's not a style, that's a disaster waiting to happen. Don't take the blame on yourself -- "if only I wasn't so screwed up then I could handle my therapist's trying to turn my therapy into her therapy -- PLEASE. This kind of therapy isn't good for anyone. It might damage some people less than others, but it isn't good for anyone. And some people, perhaps the better-parented among us, would recognize right away that the therapist is the problem and not blame themselves. This therapist should be thanking you for trying to set her straight -- someday she might get the message.
> I should add that my former therapist thought of her boundary-crossings as simply her therapeutic style and that this was one of a number of good ways to do therapy. I'm not disputing that it might not work for some patients (divulging so much about your life, talking about your own feelings in relations to the patient, etc.), but given her knowledge of what I was going through, it certainly didn't seem very smart.
>
> I guess I'm digressing (and getting angry in the process). Lots of unresolved issues here. :(
Posted by crushedout on July 30, 2005, at 17:43:22
In reply to Re: Lott: Keeping in touch after a bad therapy (long), posted by deborah anne lott on July 30, 2005, at 17:32:56
Yes. That all makes a lot of sense. Thank you so much for writing back.I wonder why I can't get her off of my mind. It feels like I will always be hung up on her. And I almost want to have a terrible relationship with her just to get it out my system (because I think you're right that it would be a disaster -- not what you said, exactly, but I think you would agree).
Anyway, all stuff to think about and talk about with the current therapist. Not necessary to reply (but of course you're welcome to).
Best,
crushedout
Posted by crushedout on July 30, 2005, at 17:46:48
In reply to Re: Lott: p.s., posted by deborah anne lott on July 30, 2005, at 17:39:39
Deborah,I complete appreciate your brutal honesty. I think it helps me to be reminded of these things, to hear someone else say them, because I STILL to this day romanticize the heck out of this woman and think that life would be perfect if only I were with her.
So, it helps me to hear these judgements of her. And on some level, I guess I do agree with you. I wish I could on all levels. Part of me still wants to think of her as this kind, loving person. Which I guess she could still be, but with some enormous flaws. Anyway, I ramble. Thanks much for being here.
> I hate to be harsh but your former therapist is, to be charitable, very misinformed, undereducated, or inexperienced. It's very easy to rationalize self-indulgent behavior which is what she exhibited -- to confide attraction, to give clients lovesong CDs -- as "therapeutic style." That's not a style, that's a disaster waiting to happen. Don't take the blame on yourself -- "if only I wasn't so screwed up then I could handle my therapist's trying to turn my therapy into her therapy -- PLEASE. This kind of therapy isn't good for anyone. It might damage some people less than others, but it isn't good for anyone. And some people, perhaps the better-parented among us, would recognize right away that the therapist is the problem and not blame themselves. This therapist should be thanking you for trying to set her straight -- someday she might get the message.
>
>
> > I should add that my former therapist thought of her boundary-crossings as simply her therapeutic style and that this was one of a number of good ways to do therapy. I'm not disputing that it might not work for some patients (divulging so much about your life, talking about your own feelings in relations to the patient, etc.), but given her knowledge of what I was going through, it certainly didn't seem very smart.
> >
> > I guess I'm digressing (and getting angry in the process). Lots of unresolved issues here. :(
>
>
Posted by crushedout on July 30, 2005, at 18:06:37
In reply to Re: Lott: p.s., posted by deborah anne lott on July 30, 2005, at 17:39:39
If you were me, would you report my former T to the licensing board or take some other sort of similar action?I know that's a hard question. But I'd be interested to hear your thoughts.
Posted by annierose on July 30, 2005, at 21:05:03
In reply to Re: Lott: Keeping in touch after a bad therapy (long), posted by deborah anne lott on July 30, 2005, at 17:32:29
I liked your insight on this subject ... straightforward, hard to digest, but sometimes, just what we may need to hear.
Posted by Racer on July 31, 2005, at 19:46:15
In reply to Lott: Tough follow-up question, posted by crushedout on July 30, 2005, at 18:06:37
>
> If you were me, would you report my former T to the licensing board or take some other sort of similar action?
>
> I know that's a hard question. But I'd be interested to hear your thoughts.
I recently reported a former therapist and psychiatrist to their respective licensing boards, so this question is very much on my mind. At what point does a mental health practioner's behavior cross the line into an area that justifies reporting to a licensing board?Personally, I think that crushed_out's ex-T probably crossed that line. And, of course, I think that the T I reported crossed that line. What is your opinion?
Thanks!
Posted by deborah anne lott on August 3, 2005, at 19:25:52
In reply to Lott: Tough follow-up question, posted by crushedout on July 30, 2005, at 18:06:37
I think that what boards are interested in hearing about is gross malpractice, unethical behavior, and incompetence,not just poor, misguided, underinformed practice. And as you may know, it's so hard to get a board to take action even when a therapist propositions a client, even when a therapist sleeps with a client, that I doubt that you would get any satisfaction. I'm not sure I have all the facts: Did your therapist actually have a dual relationship with you? Was it more a matter of fuzzy boundaries? Did she terminate you without warning and fail to refer you to another therapist? What exactly would you report?
> If you were me, would you report my former T to the licensing board or take some other sort of similar action?
>
> I know that's a hard question. But I'd be interested to hear your thoughts.
Posted by deborah anne lott on August 3, 2005, at 19:31:00
In reply to Lott: Please answer the follow up question, posted by Racer on July 31, 2005, at 19:46:15
I've lost some of the thread here. What did you report your therapist for? What happened? On a certain level, I think more clients should report more therapists for poor practice. But I also know that licensing boards don't do much and that they can put the client through so much interrogation, etc., that sometimes it's not worth the effort. Somehow clients need to have some way of warning other clients -- because if the boards won't act, at least clients could save other clients from having to go through what they've been through. That been said, though, if clients started an underground bulletin board posting our own complaints against therapists, would those therapists sue the clients? I'm not sure what the solution is but the boards do not seem to react to anything but the most egregious acts.
Posted by Racer on August 4, 2005, at 13:14:42
In reply to Re: Lott: Please answer the follow up question, posted by deborah anne lott on August 3, 2005, at 19:31:00
> I've lost some of the thread here. What did you report your therapist for? What happened?
Well, the nutshell version is that the therapist I reported was grossly incompetent and negligent; triggered both Anorexia Nervosa and agoraphobia; IGNORED my report of both in favor of telling me that I was neither anorexic nor agoraphobic, but rather so psychologically disturbed because of Borderline Personality Disorder (she wasn't sure of that, maybe it was Narcissistic Personality Disorder -- what she was sure of, though, was that it was a Personality Disorder, because "everyone has a personality...") that I was incapable of seeing that EVERYTHING in my life was entirely my fault; pressured me to continue seeing her rather than terminating when I was clearly becoming much worse; failed to note that I had lost one third of my body weight; refused to discuss either the anorexia or the anxiety, in favor of bludgeoning me to "accept my Axis II disorder" (which had never been dx'd by anyone -- she didn't even dx it in my chart); and spent a lot of time discussing her failure at her diet, and the importance of being "mindful" when eating, stopping when one's physical hunger was satisfied. (Note to Ts: that's not a great thing to tell an Anorexic...)
Those are the basic things I reported her for. She would also do things like jump out of her chair and start her, "I'm a Drama Therapist, so I *have* to act out for you what you're doing..." That might not have been so bad if her interpretations had had ANYTHING to do with what was actually going on, but maybe that's too much to ask...
Anyway, thank you for answering the question. My current T -- who is competent, I'm happy to report -- strongly encouraged me to report her, and the doctor at the same agency, and doing so helped me a bit, just by helping me see that I *can* use my voice. Whether or not anyone hears me, remains to be seen.
Thank you for visiting with us. You've certainly provided a very valuable perspective, and I suspect I can speak for others when I say that we appreciate it.
Posted by crushedout on August 4, 2005, at 15:40:33
In reply to Re: Lott: Tough follow-up question, posted by deborah anne lott on August 3, 2005, at 19:25:52
> I think that what boards are interested in hearing about is gross malpractice, unethical behavior, and incompetence,not just poor, misguided, underinformed practice. And as you may know, it's so hard to get a board to take action even when a therapist propositions a client, even when a therapist sleeps with a client, that I doubt that you would get any satisfaction.
Actually, I wasn't aware of any of this (or, I forgot, because I think you cover this in your book), although none of it surprises me and it's good to know. I don't think I will consider pursuing any such options. But I'm really glad I asked and I appreciate your candor.
>I'm not sure I have all the facts: Did your therapist actually have a dual relationship with you? Was it more a matter of fuzzy boundaries? Did she terminate you without warning and fail to refer you to another therapist? What exactly would you report?You definitely don't have *all* the facts but I think I gave you the basic idea and yes, it was mostly a matter of poor boundaries and bad therapy. I think the most egregious thing was the CD. And no, she did *not* terminate me -- I left *her*. So I guess it would be rather upsetting and not productive to report any of it. You're right that there ought to be some way to warn other potential clients.
Posted by deborah anne lott on August 5, 2005, at 20:48:34
In reply to Lott: Please answer the follow up question, posted by Racer on July 31, 2005, at 19:46:15
RE: follow-up question: I'm not sure I kept track of exactly what these therapists did so I can't really comment unless you want to fill me in on the specifics. If you think they crossed the line, they probably did. There's no harm in filing a report, just realize that you may not get satisfaction if you cannot substantiate what happened (beyond he said/she said) and the Board agrees that the matter is very serious.
Posted by deborah anne lott on August 5, 2005, at 20:50:09
In reply to Re: Lott: Please answer the follow up question » deborah anne lott, posted by Racer on August 4, 2005, at 13:14:42
Wow, that does sound bad. Glad that you were able to get away and get some help.
> > I've lost some of the thread here. What did you report your therapist for? What happened?
>
> Well, the nutshell version is that the therapist I reported was grossly incompetent and negligent; triggered both Anorexia Nervosa and agoraphobia; IGNORED my report of both in favor of telling me that I was neither anorexic nor agoraphobic, but rather so psychologically disturbed because of Borderline Personality Disorder (she wasn't sure of that, maybe it was Narcissistic Personality Disorder -- what she was sure of, though, was that it was a Personality Disorder, because "everyone has a personality...") that I was incapable of seeing that EVERYTHING in my life was entirely my fault; pressured me to continue seeing her rather than terminating when I was clearly becoming much worse; failed to note that I had lost one third of my body weight; refused to discuss either the anorexia or the anxiety, in favor of bludgeoning me to "accept my Axis II disorder" (which had never been dx'd by anyone -- she didn't even dx it in my chart); and spent a lot of time discussing her failure at her diet, and the importance of being "mindful" when eating, stopping when one's physical hunger was satisfied. (Note to Ts: that's not a great thing to tell an Anorexic...)
>
> Those are the basic things I reported her for. She would also do things like jump out of her chair and start her, "I'm a Drama Therapist, so I *have* to act out for you what you're doing..." That might not have been so bad if her interpretations had had ANYTHING to do with what was actually going on, but maybe that's too much to ask...
>
> Anyway, thank you for answering the question. My current T -- who is competent, I'm happy to report -- strongly encouraged me to report her, and the doctor at the same agency, and doing so helped me a bit, just by helping me see that I *can* use my voice. Whether or not anyone hears me, remains to be seen.
>
> Thank you for visiting with us. You've certainly provided a very valuable perspective, and I suspect I can speak for others when I say that we appreciate it.
This is the end of the thread.
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