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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 13 to 37 of 43. Go back in thread:
Posted by gardenergirl on June 16, 2005, at 22:36:51
In reply to Re: T today - hurt and angry - may trigger » Shortelise, posted by littleone on June 16, 2005, at 21:44:18
ShortE,
I'm so sorry you had such a bad session and that you are hurting right now. Termination is really really hard, and of course it would be painful when you've been working with him so long. I absolutely agree with Pegasus, that the process of termination is **talking** about all the feelings termination stirs up. That's why what I learned in grad school is that termination can take a very long time in long term therapies. I was taught you have to give it enough weight and attention, perhaps even more so than the rest of therapy. The goal is for termination to feel "right" and "okay" with both parties.I would hate to think that anyone is being taught to bring out anger as a way to terminate. That may be his own stuff leaking in. It may also be some of your stuff coming out, which is perfectly natural and **supposed** to happen, but for some reason he's not picking it up to work on it with you.
(((((((ShortElise)))))))
Keep talking about it if you can, whether it's hear, to your hubby or someone else you trust to support, or maybe even your T. I'm hoping he's concerned about it after you walked out, and he will be open to hearing how you feel.
gg
Posted by daisym on June 16, 2005, at 23:31:33
In reply to T today - hurt and angry - may trigger, posted by Shortelise on June 16, 2005, at 14:31:33
((((ShortE))))
All I can think of is that your therapist is hurting about all of this too and not handling it well. Maybe that is what I want to think.
I think termination should be either be ripping the band-aid off quick --- your last session is sad and painful but you are left with the rest of your impressions about it being "safe" intact; OR --- you should be moving away slowly, catching up eagerly with each other when you do get-together, sharing how hard it is to miss someone so important in your life and celebrating your successes that you attribute to what you learned from therapy. I think that you should get to take a little piece of your therapist with you each and everytime so that eventually you've built a clone inside yourself that is yours when you need him. And still, you know the "real thing" is out there if your model needs repair.
Mostly, I'm so sorry for your pain. This is one of those times that you need more than the computer screen. I'm glad you have your hubby.
Posted by Jazzed on June 16, 2005, at 23:39:52
In reply to T today - hurt and angry - may trigger, posted by Shortelise on June 16, 2005, at 14:31:33
> I am such a loser.
I'm so sorry that your session left you feeling this way ShortE. It's a good indication that it wasn't handled well at all. We're supposed to leave feeling better, or at least that we've gotten somewhere, accomplished something.
>
I was being a little extreme, that "kid gloves" was how someone very fragile is treated, that it's a far cry from simply not pummelling someone against the wall.He definately could have been a little more thoughtful in his response to you. This seems to lack any tact or regard for your feelings.
>
> It felt like there wasnothing I could say, so - fiveminutes into the session - I stood and said I didn't want to talk to him anymore at all>
> What did I want? I wanted him to say, you're upset about this I can see. I wanted some kind compassion. Dammit. I feel so hurt.Your way of handling it, having him acknowledge your hurt, seems to me to be the better way of handling it, you're right. I'd be so angry, and you have every right to be hurt and angry ShortE.
Can you put down in writing how all of this made you feel, and how it should be? Maybe then he can see how wrong all of this is. You're not a failure, you've just been manhandled so to speak. I hope your husband was able to offer you the comfort that you needed.((((((hugs))))))
Jazzy
Posted by Shortelise on June 17, 2005, at 2:00:21
In reply to T today - hurt and angry - may trigger, posted by Shortelise on June 16, 2005, at 14:31:33
Your responses mean so much - I appreciate them so much. I hear everything you all say, but am stuck where I am for the time being.
I can't help think that you are looking through my filters, that I am actually all wrong, that he is right, butbecause you only hear my skewed side of things, he seems all wrong.
He didn't telephone me. I only half expected him to. Other times, in the first 3 or 4 years of therapy, when I left, he telephoned.
I think I just have to let him go, have to let this end, even if this end is a bad one. But I want to hurt myself because it feels like the only way to get this hurt out is to hurt myself. I won't, it's too hurtful to those I love, but I want to want to, like hunger.
It's the BPD thing, we always come back to self-destruction. This therapy was a failure. I feel I have failed. I have failed everything. What am I doing? Why do I react this way? Is it an addiction to intensity? Is it withdrawl from an addiction to therapy? Am I being the archtypical BPD? Why? WHy have I not changed? Why am I still here up to here in caca? I am supposed, after 7 years of therapy, to be past this.
ANd he didn't even call, the sh*t.
I'm completely nuts.
ShortE
Posted by Jazzed on June 17, 2005, at 6:25:47
In reply to thanks to you all - another trigger maybe, posted by Shortelise on June 17, 2005, at 2:00:21
Hi shortE,
When's your next session? Sounds like you need to get back in there and work through some of this stuff. I don't understand why termination is upon you when you're still struggling with so much. I know it's been 7 years, and that's seems like a long time to you, but some people just need the support of ongoing therapy. Why can't you continue?
As for the SI. Is it because you feel like you're being pushed away, and you want to lash out at the T, but you feel that's unacceptable, so you're taking it out on yourself? Please don't. Go back and tell him how angry you are, he can handle it.
I hope your next session is soon. If not I hope you can call him and tell him you need to come back.
(((hugs)))
Jazzy
Posted by Dinah on June 17, 2005, at 7:01:33
In reply to thanks to you all - another trigger maybe, posted by Shortelise on June 17, 2005, at 2:00:21
I wish I knew what to say. I'm really sorry this is happening this way.
My suggestion would normally be to call him, schedule another appointment with him, and ask him if this is his usual termination plan, and how it's supposed to be helpful. Probably handing him Pegasus' post as well.
But...
He's not handling any of this the way I would have guessed. So I don't know how he'll respond if you call him.
As I always say, loss s*cks. But this sort of loss s*cks worse than normal.
((((ShortE))))
I think I'd still take the chance. Because it would hurt too much not to, and would only potentially hurt to much to do it. But that's me. And you know him better than I do.
My guess is that he's not going to call. I could be wrong, but calling wouldn't seem to be in line with the rest of what he's doing.
Posted by Shortelise on June 17, 2005, at 12:14:52
In reply to Re: thanks to you all - another trigger maybe » Shortelise, posted by Dinah on June 17, 2005, at 7:01:33
If it were today, I wouldn't go.
I am supposed to be seeing him less often,so I made appt's a month apart, or as close to that as possible.
You know when you pick up a cat that doesn't want to be picked up, how it squirms and writhes? That's how I feel.
Maybe I am so angry at him because of my own inadequacies.
And I think he doesn't like me. I know that's an old song in the therapy biz, and that many of us struggle with it. He'd say it means I don't like myself.
Sh*t. Double sh*t.
Thanks again for putting up with me, for taking thetime to send your ideas and opinions. It helps so much that you care.
ShortE
Posted by pegasus on June 17, 2005, at 14:15:46
In reply to next appt in 5 weeks., posted by Shortelise on June 17, 2005, at 12:14:52
I'm so sorry about this whole situation for you. I agree with littleone that I want to give him a swift kick in the shins. And then ask him exactly what his theory about termination is?? Maybe if he has some organizing principle behind his actions that he could explain, it would make it hurt a little less? Or maybe not. He did kind of explain it as a weaning off a while back, didn't he. Well, why can't he see that's a painful, hurtful way to do it?
SE, you said that you thought maybe we all agree that he's doing a bad job of termination because we're seeing it through your filter. But, that's how *you're* seeing it, right? So, as far as you're concerned, this is a bad termination. And whatever his intentions are, the fact that the termination is going so badly for you should be relevant to him. Am I making sense? I just think it sounds like he might be sticking to some theory and missing the reality of what it's doing.
I really hope things start to get better for you around this, some way or another. I just hurt for you whenever I read the latest developments about this termination.
(((Shortelise)))
pegasus
Posted by daisym on June 17, 2005, at 15:07:29
In reply to next appt in 5 weeks., posted by Shortelise on June 17, 2005, at 12:14:52
I don't understand why this would be good for folks with "BPD" -- why do you think this? Is there any evidence that says this is the best way?
I'm sorry, I just don't understand. It doesn't matter if it is only through your filter that we see things, I can HEAR your pain!!! And we don't want our friends in pain. I'm searching for a way to see this as something that you must endure because it is good for you. I would have said that about termination overall. But there MUST be a gentler way, mustn't there??
It is raining here. I wish I could have you over for tea (I typed tear) and warm toast. We could swing together and not even need to talk. I could use the company today.
Posted by Tamar on June 17, 2005, at 17:36:54
In reply to T today - hurt and angry - may trigger, posted by Shortelise on June 16, 2005, at 14:31:33
Oh ShortE, what a rough experience.
I think you are really at the beginning of the termination process and it will take quite some time. I don't think he should pull away all at once.
I also wonder if you're going into session expecting to feel unsupported and then find it's a self-fulfilling prophecy. Maybe I'm wrong...
I think it's also really hard to have that experience and then find you need to go five weeks until your next appointment. I wish you could see him sooner and talk about how the process of termination is feeling to you. It might be hard for him to guage exactly how you're feeling about it.
I really think termination should be about finding ways to walk away from your safe place of your own free will, and maybe learn to find safe places outside therapy. If it feels as if he's snatching the safety away from you, I think there's something wrong, and it's not you!
And you really are NOT a loser!
(((((ShortE)))))
I'm also glad to hear your husband is being such a star.
Tamar
Posted by Aphrodite on June 17, 2005, at 18:05:44
In reply to next appt in 5 weeks., posted by Shortelise on June 17, 2005, at 12:14:52
Don't try to analyze why you're having the feelings of anger toward him that you do. For now, just have them and let them out.
I'm sorry. Does 5 weeks seem like forever to you, or are you grateful for the time to get some distance from the situation?
And don't turn your diagnosis against yourself because you are more than a label. No label fits anyone completely and thoroughly. I hate to see you identifying with an illness and then feeling that is a reason for the less than optimum skill he is providing in this termination process.
If you feel the need to take some of the responsibility, at least make it a 50/50 split.
I am so, so sorry.
Posted by Shortelise on June 18, 2005, at 1:22:10
In reply to T today - hurt and angry - may trigger, posted by Shortelise on June 16, 2005, at 14:31:33
Dear xxx,I guess your learning, your theories, your knowledge of me, and other factors I can’t imagine have contributed to forming the termination method you are using with me. I believe you’re doing what you think is best for me.
It’s just not working for me. That I came in saying I feel I have to handle you with kid gloves – you heard me loud and clear. You knew I was feeling awful and you knew I was saying so. That you ask me to speak your language, well, sometimes I can and sometimes I can’t. Still. After seven years. And that’s the way it is. I know you don’t like it about me, and I don’t like it about me, but it may be one of those things that will take longer than seven years to change. My dear psychiatrist, I am way better at it than I used to be.
I am feeling reprimanded, like a dog having my nose rubbed in my own sh*t. I couldn’t give you context for whatever it was three weeks ago because I am intimidated by you, and when you asked me that, my mind went blank as it often does when I am frightened. I’m frightened a lot.
I feel able to terminate by seeing you once a month for a while, then once very six to eight weeks, then once every few months, then once in a while after that, knowing there is a place that exists for me, where I can bring my usual multi-coloured swirls and whirls of emotion and find a listener who can help me understand, in a gentle, empathetic way, the tangles I get into.
I don’t feel able to go through the process being called “addicted to therapy” or “addicted to intensity” no matter how true those things might be. I don’t feel able to tolerate whatever it is you are doing, or to evolve in to a person who does. It feels harsh, and frankly, cruel. This is surely not your intention, but you seem to have some idea of how I should be, and it is not how I am.
I need to feel safe with you, and I don’t. The world challenges me daily, knocks me down, makes me examine my assumptions, forces me to question myself. On the whole, I deal with that with grace these days. I am not asking you be my mother. I am asking you to be on my side again.
You’ve said that you feel confident in my ability to go on without you should I chose not to see you again. I agree, but I wouldn’t like to do that. I feel so hurt and so sad – and angry, too. I don’t want to leave disliking you as I do right now and I’d like your help with this. But if you don’t feel it’s possible to alter your method, maybe reach a compromise, then it would be best for me not to return to therapy with you.
Please let me know.
Yours,
Posted by pinkeye on June 18, 2005, at 12:40:07
In reply to wrote and sent this letter to T today, posted by Shortelise on June 18, 2005, at 1:22:10
Great.. I wish I had the same courage.
Good for you.
Posted by Daisym on June 18, 2005, at 13:20:34
In reply to wrote and sent this letter to T today, posted by Shortelise on June 18, 2005, at 1:22:10
My heart is breaking for you...such a sad, clear letter. I hope he gets it, understands what you said. How could he not?
I just want to hold and rock you. This would kill me. You are very strong.
(((ShortE)))
Posted by Dinah on June 18, 2005, at 15:03:14
In reply to wrote and sent this letter to T today, posted by Shortelise on June 18, 2005, at 1:22:10
I think that was very brave of you.
I hope he responds appropriately and sensitively.
((((ShortE))))
Posted by pegasus on June 18, 2005, at 15:10:40
In reply to wrote and sent this letter to T today, posted by Shortelise on June 18, 2005, at 1:22:10
It seems like a very good letter and quite brave. I hope he understands what it means, and that you two can have a really productive talk about the whole thing. I'm wishing you much luck with it. Please let us know what happens.
pegasus
Posted by Shortelise on June 18, 2005, at 16:17:43
In reply to wrote and sent this letter to T today, posted by Shortelise on June 18, 2005, at 1:22:10
Thank you all so much.
Here's what I've done since I left therapy on Thursday:
I came home, told my husband the whole thing, cried and cried. Then I go into bed for about an hour and thought about the various ways there are of successfully killing one's self. I have a favourite, and I thought about it, thought it trhough carefully, planned how I would do it, then decided that I needed some help so called out to my husband who was downstairs. I told him I needed help getting up - not physically - but he did physically help me up, and we went for a walk, and talked some more, worked in the garden, and it was ok.
I wrote to you guys, and read your responses.
I slogged through the mess that is my emotional self, read through your notes, and tried to figure things out enough to write to my T. And I wrote, as you saw. And now I feel better. I think he will understand, I think he'll help.
But if he doesn't, if I am all wrong as I fear I might be, and he throws me back into the sea, I will swim.
Thanks so very much for your kind compassion. You guys save me.
ShortE
Posted by gardenergirl on June 18, 2005, at 17:56:07
In reply to feeling better, posted by Shortelise on June 18, 2005, at 16:17:43
Ah ShortE,
I'm glad you are feeling better. I'm glad you wrote to your T so honestly and from your heart. I'm glad you find support here. And I am glad you can swim. I know you will, however your termination goes.(((shortelise)))
gg
Posted by 10derHeart on June 19, 2005, at 18:51:49
In reply to wrote and sent this letter to T today, posted by Shortelise on June 18, 2005, at 1:22:10
ShoertE,
This was awesome. So articulate and emotional all at once - not an easy mix to achieve. You are a wonderful writer.
I love that you sent it to him. And I REALLY love what you posted below about all the things you did, and in what order, since that last appt. day!
It really struck me and I'm so impressed. You really are so strong in all of this, you know.Allowing yourself even the most awful of feelings, but not acting, instead reaching out for IRL help, Babbling, taking a walk, gardening, etc. - what a litany of healthy, constructive things to do! That reads like a blueprint for anyone else struggling with the pain this odd and confusing termination has put you through.
I so, so pray he answers and/or reaches out a hand to you. I remember your therapy relatrionship was long and good. This just doesn't seem like him. More like something he's programmed himself to do because he's *supposed* to. Ironic, isn't it? T's so often fight to help us stop doing destructive behaviors simply out of a *supposed to* attitude. Now look at him :-(
I wish you good sleep, lots of distractions, an understanding husband, beautiful garden and more long walks, dear ShortE. Hugs, - 10der
Posted by Shortelise on June 19, 2005, at 21:03:14
In reply to Re: wrote and sent this letter to T today » Shortelise, posted by 10derHeart on June 19, 2005, at 18:51:49
Posted by 10derHeart on June 19, 2005, at 23:35:53
In reply to thank you thank you (nm), posted by Shortelise on June 19, 2005, at 21:03:14
Posted by Shortelise on June 20, 2005, at 15:23:39
In reply to wrote and sent this letter to T today, posted by Shortelise on June 18, 2005, at 1:22:10
He said that this isn't the first time I've walked out of a session, and that he hoped I'd come back as soon as possible and talk about the things I wrote.
He said lots of stuff, all in that ten-miles-away voice. All very matter of fact, all very "I'm sorry if you don't like what I'm saying but it needs to be said" voice.
He understood from my note that I am asking him not to point things out to me!! I am asking him to be gentler. Maybe he can't be, maybe he's tried that and it hasn't worked.
I said I felt like he wants me to go away, that he dislikes and is fed up with me. He said I have to take responsibility for those feelings because they are not how he feels. He said it's imortant to see where they come from.
He would prefer to see me every three weeks, not once a month.
What? So how can I imagine that he hates me and wants me to go away? I hate me and want me to go away, how can he not?
Help. Help! I feel so awful.
He said that he does not like it that I left like that instead of staying and talking things through, and he did not like it that I said as I was leaving that he is a nasty person. (He didn't say I'd called him a nasty little man. That's a way nastier thing to say than just calling him a nasty person!! I have to wonder if his receptionist altered what I said for his benefit. We're kind of pals, and I wouldn't put it past her.)
He said it would have been best if I'd stayed in the room and told him I thought he was being nasty.I don't know. I want him to feel as bad as I do. It's completely infantile how I feel. He said something about how I should "use the skills Ive learned." *sshole. (God, I love that word. It has a certain something that no other insult does.) How in the world does he think I get through every day.
Babblers, please talk to me, no holds barred. GG, you too. If I am being an idiot here, I need to hear it from my far away pals from whom I have some distance. I could hear it from someone very close, too, but there is no one close to me who can see this clearly.
Help. Please. Dammit.
ShortE, feeling stupid and pathetic and all wrong and suicidal. Suicidal for me is an idea, not an act, so I won't actually do it. How I wish I would.
Posted by annierose on June 20, 2005, at 15:53:44
In reply to T called, posted by Shortelise on June 20, 2005, at 15:23:39
Sorry you are feeling so bad. Your T's reply does sound like he was talking his "parent" voice instead of a compassionate, I am trying to understand what you are feeling voice. His tone sounds slightly punative in nature. Maybe I'm reading too much into it.
I would feel hurt too, if that makes you feel any better. And I wish I knew what to say to help you. I'm glad I am not going to terminate with my T any time soon. This is such a painful process.
Sending hugs and warm wishes your way!!
Annierose
Posted by Tamar on June 20, 2005, at 16:28:52
In reply to T called, posted by Shortelise on June 20, 2005, at 15:23:39
> He said that this isn't the first time I've walked out of a session, and that he hoped I'd come back as soon as possible and talk about the things I wrote.
I’m glad he called, and I’m glad he wants you to come back as soon as possible. I think he’s offering you an olive branch there.
> He said lots of stuff, all in that ten-miles-away voice. All very matter of fact, all very "I'm sorry if you don't like what I'm saying but it needs to be said" voice.
>
> He understood from my note that I am asking him not to point things out to me!! I am asking him to be gentler. Maybe he can't be, maybe he's tried that and it hasn't worked.Or maybe he doesn’t understand how you feel about losing your safe place, and needs it explained to him in words of one syllable…
> I said I felt like he wants me to go away, that he dislikes and is fed up with me. He said I have to take responsibility for those feelings because they are not how he feels. He said it's imortant to see where they come from.I guess seeing where they come from would involve dealing with the myriad feelings that impending termination evokes.
> He would prefer to see me every three weeks, not once a month.
I think that’s a good thing. It seems to imply that he thinks you need a more gradual approach to termination, which would give you more safety and more time to work things through.
> What? So how can I imagine that he hates me and wants me to go away? I hate me and want me to go away, how can he not?
I’m sure he doesn’t hate you. And after seven years it must be hard for him to think about the end of your therapy. I’m certain he wants to approach it in a way that will be bearable for both of you.
> Help. Help! I feel so awful.
(((((ShortE)))))
> He said that he does not like it that I left like that instead of staying and talking things through, and he did not like it that I said as I was leaving that he is a nasty person. (He didn't say I'd called him a nasty little man. That's a way nastier thing to say than just calling him a nasty person!! I have to wonder if his receptionist altered what I said for his benefit. We're kind of pals, and I wouldn't put it past her.)
Yes, a nasty person is a better spin on it! I suppose he could feel a little hurt, and he might be surprised that you left, especially if it’s been a long time since you walked out of therapy. I hope he realizes that your action indicates some very profound feelings and that he needs to start being more gentle with you.
> He said it would have been best if I'd stayed in the room and told him I thought he was being nasty.
I assumed you pretty much lost your temper. Is that how it was? Sometimes things can feel so awful that it’s impossible to stay. Yes, perhaps staying would have been best. And I’m sure if you’d felt that staying was possible you would have stayed. So if staying wasn’t possible, the reasons for that are important to think about.
> I don't know. I want him to feel as bad as I do. It's completely infantile how I feel. He said something about how I should "use the skills Ive learned." *sshole. (God, I love that word. It has a certain something that no other insult does.) How in the world does he think I get through every day.
Maybe he does feel pretty bad. I would bet my house he wasn’t expecting you to walk out. That would explain his ten-miles-away voice. A voice like that is a form of self-protection, in my view. (BTW, I love *sshole too, and also w*nker…)
> Babblers, please talk to me, no holds barred. GG, you too. If I am being an idiot here, I need to hear it from my far away pals from whom I have some distance. I could hear it from someone very close, too, but there is no one close to me who can see this clearly.
I don’t think you are being an idiot. But if you really want a no-holds-barred comment, then I would say: start your next session by talking about termination. Never mind the whys and wherefores about leaving your last session, or his lack of gentleness. Those things will almost certainly come up in the course of discussion. But if you start out by setting the agenda, everything else you talk about can be interpreted in the light of your feelings about termination. Or maybe I’m way off the mark… feel free to flame me if necessary!
> ShortE, feeling stupid and pathetic and all wrong and suicidal. Suicidal for me is an idea, not an act, so I won't actually do it. How I wish I would.
I’m glad you say you won’t, even if you’re thinking about it. Please do take care of yourself. I couldn’t bear to lose you!
Have you made a new appointment to see him yet?
Posted by pinkeye on June 20, 2005, at 16:37:22
In reply to T called, posted by Shortelise on June 20, 2005, at 15:23:39
Many Ts suck at terminating gracefully... I think yours is lacking that skill as well..
But I am glad atleast he has agreed to a little gradual termination for you, and he has agreed to see you at spaced intervals for sometime.
Get everything out in the open now itself.. tell him how hard it is for you to terminate.. if you want, quote all the babblers and tell him what everybody goes through during termination.. then he might understand more.. I would say every T needs to dedicate atleast 10 - 20 sessions for termination itself.
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