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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 22 of 22. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Susan47 on April 22, 2005, at 7:02:31
Sublimation: An elated or ecstatic state of mind.
Subjugation: Reduction to a state of subserviency or dependence
Rant:
I miss my old therapist so much I just want to die, I wasn't thinking about him but then I always do, I spent almost two years of my life thinking about him he was the first thought in my head when I woke up and almost the last one at night. I hate myself for being like this. I hate that this happened to me. I don't know how it happened but even now when I haven't been in therapy with him, haven't spoken more than a dozen words to him at one go I'm sure, in almost a year, I still think about this person every day and every waking hour. For months, months at a time last year I was almost immobilized, I couldn't do anything without his presence in my head. It was terrible, awful, and I'm finally grieving I think it's finally sunk in I will never be with this person, you know? It's been sinking in for a long time but it's so slow because my need for him was so huge, it was engulfing all of me, I was being swallowed by my need.
It was embarrassing, because it felt pathological, and I don't want to be pathological. I want to be well, healthy. I want to be a whole human being, me, myself, by myself.
But I couldn't. I couldn't do it. I wasn't able to not have him in my head. I'd fallen, yes.. that's why they say "falling" in love, not learning to love or loving, also they say "in", you know? You put yourself right into this person, you try and pour yourself in, and they've already poured themselves into you, I mean, you've absorbed some essence of them that becomes a part of you. Totally, totally against your will, but also not so. There was permission, on some level, for me to want to love this person, this man who just felt so wonderful to be with. Or not with, not with really, just in the presence of, you know? I can't believe I let myself say the things I did. I've never said things like that ever before in my life. I spilled my guts, I told him exactly how he affected me. But why, why would I do such a thing? Why would I decide, finally, in my life it's my turn to say how I feel about someone, I don't need to be afraid I'm going to be rejected. But then of course I went too far, because I had this feeling develop, a feeling you're not supposed to have for someone who's off limits. And who wouldn't be interested in you, even if you weren't, and it's good that you have this structure in the relationship, because you would never want to find out the awful truth, which is really that you're not good enough. Which is where it all begins to break down.
It's horrible. Loving someone should never hurt. But it did, it hurt so incredibly much, and it still does. This loss of love, this loving and loss of it, you know, it's humiliating, really.
Posted by cricket on April 22, 2005, at 7:40:36
In reply to Sublimation and Subjugation, posted by Susan47 on April 22, 2005, at 7:02:31
Hi Susan47,
I can understand your pain. To have this unrequited need for more than a year must be awful.
I currently have a T who I long for and who at least lately seems to hate me.
How did your relationship with your T end, if you don't mind my asking? You said, "But then of course I went too far, because I had this feeling develop, a feeling you're not supposed to have for someone who's off limits." Did he terminate you because of your feelings? That sounds unethical, to say the least.
I too am struggling with the feeling that I am just not good enough. That's the message my T gives me. And even though I can't take my own advice right now, I would say don't believe it about yourself. Don't believe it for a second.
I think that there are some mighty big egos in the psychotherapy industry and some of them have no idea how much havoc they can wreck on a person.Maybe in the next lifetime, they'll come back as our clients :)
Take care of yourself.
Posted by annierose on April 22, 2005, at 7:40:40
In reply to Sublimation and Subjugation, posted by Susan47 on April 22, 2005, at 7:02:31
I am sorry you are feeling so much pain. You sounded so much better when you were back into therapy. Why did you stop? I think that therapist was helping you grieve your terrible loss. And I still think someone is out there to help you process that relationship. Don't give up.
Posted by Susan47 on April 22, 2005, at 8:07:26
In reply to Re: Sublimation and Subjugation » Susan47, posted by cricket on April 22, 2005, at 7:40:36
Well, you asked if he terminated me because of my feelings and I can definitely say yes.
I don't know if it's unethical.
But I do know it hurt incredibly much then and it hurts now, but not so much. I'd asked him to terminate me, on his answering machine, several weeks before he actually did do it. And now he claims that's the reason he did it. But I know that is not true. Because therapists learn to listen for stuff like that, and approach it. But this man, he ignored it, and he never tried to discuss it. He always made me make the moves, and he didn't understand that I didn't have the capability in me to do that, how much I needed him to approach me with caring, but he couldn't bring himself to do that. He's like a wall, and I kept hitting the wall.
Thank you for your very lovely kindness, Cricket. I'm sure your therapist doesn't hate you, but I think you have a very good point when you say they have egos.
I kind of hit a milestone when I realized intellectually that it doesn't matter what another person thinks of me. It matters what I think. But if what I think isn't very good, I need someone to help me change that. My therapist, this man I went to for help, he was not able to do that he made it worse. So if your therapist is making it worse, See Someone Else, IMO. If it's not too late for you to do that, emotionally. My therapist waited too long, to take any action.. then that action was the rejecting one I'd always feared and known would come. Honestly, Cricket, I pushed him into rejecting me. Voila.
Posted by Susan47 on April 22, 2005, at 8:10:49
In reply to Re: Sublimation and Subjugation, posted by annierose on April 22, 2005, at 7:40:40
I kind of did give up. I can't face working through the EMDR process right now. It's too much with everything else that is or isn't in my life. It's morning. Time to get a bit of sleep, perhaps. Try and get rid of the pain.
Posted by sunny10 on April 22, 2005, at 8:29:55
In reply to Re: Sublimation and Subjugation » annierose, posted by Susan47 on April 22, 2005, at 8:10:49
Cricket,
I pains me to hear you say that you feel your T doesn't think highly of you. Ask T straight out what they think of you. If you are uncomfortable with the answer, try to figure out whether the comfort level is part of why you are in therapy or merely the fact that you two simply don't "click". If you don't click- try another T. I've had to do this many times.Susan47-
Please give the EMDR a shot. I know that you "felt fine" while in that slightly manic stage, but now you are hurting again. Please give SOME kind of T a try, okay?!? I love you, girl!!!-sunny10
Posted by Tamar on April 22, 2005, at 8:38:50
In reply to Sublimation and Subjugation, posted by Susan47 on April 22, 2005, at 7:02:31
(((((Susan)))))
It seems so sad that he terminated you (even though you asked him to) instead of helping you explore and accept your feelings.
I think this way of loving our therapists is the most unfair thing. Falling in love should be a happy experience. Our capacity for love should demonstrate that we are mature and compassionate people, and it’s so unfair that it’s not rewarded with reciprocation. Instead, it feels like rejection.
Most people experience unrequited love at one time or another in life. But in therapy it’s so horribly inevitable. It has to end in tears. If they love us back, it hurts. If they don’t love us back, it hurts.
The only thing that helps me is the certainty that unrequited love in therapy is ultimately less painful than an unethical relationship. But that doesn’t answer the question of why we fall in love in the first place.
Sometimes I wonder if the answer is to follow that old adage: ‘the only way to get over a man is to get under another man!’ In other words, the only thing we can do for unrequited love is to find a more suitable object of desire: someone who is actually capable of loving us back. Sometimes that’s easier said than done. And also, maybe more therapy helps, with someone who can help you find insight into your feelings and help you move on.
You deserve to be loved for the person you are. Since your former therapist didn’t understand that, he doesn’t deserve you.
Hugs,
Tamar
Posted by cricket on April 22, 2005, at 8:42:27
In reply to Re: Sublimation and Subjugation » cricket, posted by Susan47 on April 22, 2005, at 8:07:26
Oh my goodness Susan47. It makes me wonder if I have the same therapist as you had :)
Anyway, I will definitely tell him how much he is hurting me. Of course now that I've calmed down a bit, at least slept last night, all these fantasies keep going through my head of how he's going to apologize and say he wants to keep working with me. Then I have to keep reminding myself of the things he's really said. Ugh.
Posted by Annierose on April 22, 2005, at 8:45:18
In reply to Re: Cricket and Susan47, posted by sunny10 on April 22, 2005, at 8:29:55
Susan-
I am sadden to read that it was too hard. I know it's hard. But isn't this daily non-stop pain hard as well. I just sense in reading your posts, that your hope is gone now.While you were in treatment, you were more positive. I think you felt hope again.
Spring is a time for change. I hope you find the strength to go back to therapy. If the new Ts approach was too difficult, maybe try a therapist that is just "talking therapy".
Hugs for you! Hope you get your morning sleep. I'm alread at work and need to get back to my desk!
Posted by shrinking violet on April 22, 2005, at 9:48:26
In reply to Re: Susan, posted by Annierose on April 22, 2005, at 8:45:18
Posted by shrinking violet on April 22, 2005, at 9:48:50
In reply to Sublimation and Subjugation, posted by Susan47 on April 22, 2005, at 7:02:31
Posted by Susan47 on April 22, 2005, at 11:12:24
In reply to Re: Cricket and Susan47, posted by sunny10 on April 22, 2005, at 8:29:55
I asked my therapist to tell me once, what he thought of me. And here is what he said "I think you're an attractive, intelligent woman who's learning to be comfortable with herself" or something like that. It did not help. It was rehearsed, written out, I'm sure, because as I didn't have the courage to ask him in person, I asked him to leave me a phone message, you know? So I could re-play it when I needed to. But it was so obviously rehearsed and staged, it did not work.
He didn't want to treat me from the beginning, I'm pretty sure of that. So I made it easy for him, making myself horrible I suppose by being pathological.
Posted by Susan47 on April 22, 2005, at 11:17:00
In reply to Re: Sublimation and Subjugation » Susan47, posted by cricket on April 22, 2005, at 8:42:27
What things has he said? Mine told me he thought I was selfish at times. Yes, and he has about as much understanding of the human psyche as a walnut. Is what I feel like saying back to him.
Posted by cricket on April 22, 2005, at 13:02:26
In reply to Re: Sublimation and Subjugation » cricket, posted by Susan47 on April 22, 2005, at 11:17:00
> What things has he said? Mine told me he thought I was selfish at times. Yes, and he has about as much understanding of the human psyche as a walnut. Is what I feel like saying back to him.
Well, he constantly says, "Why are you here? You don't want to be here."In 3 years, I have never cancelled, never been late and always paid on time, so I think that what he's really trying to say is "I don't want you here."
Of course, he's belligerent and stubborn in other ways too. Once when I was trying to disagree with him about something, he crossed his arms over his chest and said, "Oh so I'm crazy now."
I like your walnut simile. Geez, don't you wish that sometimes you really could say those things.
Posted by sunny10 on April 22, 2005, at 13:40:48
In reply to Re: Sublimation and Subjugation » Susan47, posted by cricket on April 22, 2005, at 13:02:26
sounds like yours is a walnut, too !!!
He maybe saying that he wonders what you are doing there if he feels you are not opening up enough, but even if I'm right, he's a lousy conversationalist, either way!!!!
Maybe you should try to find one who's a peach instead of the pits...
good luck, cricket!!!
Posted by pinkeye on April 22, 2005, at 14:17:29
In reply to Re: Cricket and Susan47 » sunny10, posted by Susan47 on April 22, 2005, at 11:12:24
Susan,
I think your ex T was really really incapable. Or he was capable for other people, but definitely not for you. You probably played out your psyche.. and as Dinah once said, therapists should know that patients behave in their worst because that is the deepest part of themselves .. and if they cannot show it in full to their therapist, they cannot ever change and learn to be good in the deepest parts. I think your therapist should have understood that what you were doing is more about you than it is about him, and somehow handled that more gently instead of getting afraid and shutting you off.I think your T was confused and scared and didn't have any capacity to handle what you were showing him.
So the only thing you can do is now move on. This T is never going to give you what you need - the validation you need and the support you need has to come from a different place - be it either a new T or a new man, or plenty of men, or from your kids or from some other means. You will never get this validation and the approval that you need from this T. Ever. So just move on.
I actually agree with Tamar's advice. Try to get to date new people. That will help. Maybe somebody good will come along who will help you heal.
Posted by pinkeye on April 22, 2005, at 14:21:20
In reply to Re: Cricket and Susan47 » Susan47, posted by pinkeye on April 22, 2005, at 14:17:29
Also if it is of any help, I was in the same situation as you are.. not quite so bad, but maybe kind of hung over my ex T.. But now I have moved on. There is only a teeny teeny bit of hurt left and I am sure that will also get solved on its own.
But then I got a new T who helped me.. She helped me see things in a right way - that what I was feeling was really about my dad and his role in my life, rather than really about my ex T. that helped me a lot. Maybe your feelings towards him are really aobut your Dad too. Not about him. Is that a possibility?
Posted by cricket on April 22, 2005, at 15:42:40
In reply to Re: Sublimation and Subjugation » cricket, posted by sunny10 on April 22, 2005, at 13:40:48
Posted by Susan47 on April 22, 2005, at 17:50:01
In reply to Re: Cricket and Susan47 Susan » pinkeye, posted by pinkeye on April 22, 2005, at 14:21:20
I think it has to be a possibility. Why would I think I loved someone I don't really know? People don't really have auras, you can't really grasp a person's essential self in the matter of a few hours. You certainly can't fall in love, and as a client spilling out my guts, I was extremely vulnerable to that in any case. In effect I believe I HAD to fall in love with him, so that I COULD trust him. Does that make any sense? I had to convince myself he was lovable. You know, that wasn't hard to do. He's a therapist. He has certain attractive qualities. I still think of him at times, and it's almost like a physical presence, the memory of him just pervades my soul, I can't escape it and I don't want to. There's so much about him that's so incredible, so wonderful, I am not joking. It wasn't just that he was my therapist. But I have to move on. I can't live my life in despair. But what you were saying about my father, I have to think about that some more. Well, I would think about it but you know, really, I've done all the thinking I want to do about that person. Until I really have to. No, in the end it's nothing about my father that I saw in the therapist. I thought it was. It was a good excuse for the way I was feeling about him. I lied to him, that is the one thing I did lie about. I said You remind me of my father, you look like him.... etc. But it was not the truth, I had to say it to save face, though. The ugly little girl standing in the corner, the one on the swings, the one who's afraid to play "Boys chase the girls" because no boy would probably chase her. That's probably closer to the truth.
Posted by pinkeye on April 22, 2005, at 17:59:11
In reply to Re: Cricket and Susan47 Susan, posted by Susan47 on April 22, 2005, at 17:50:01
Even the most ugly people have boys in their lives Susan. It is only because you think you are ugly that you think nobody will find you. Truth is, for everyone, there is someone in the world.
And if you look beneath the surface of someone's appearance or mannerisms, and go for the persons heart, you will find plenty of very good men capable of loving you more dearly than your father or your therapist ever did. But if you yourself think of you as ugly and not desirable by good men, then you will never find any. That is the way the world operates. It just reflects back our deepest vision of our selves.
Posted by Jen Star on April 22, 2005, at 19:49:44
In reply to Sublimation and Subjugation, posted by Susan47 on April 22, 2005, at 7:02:31
hi Susan,
I'm back after being away from Babble for a while! I hope you don't mind if I join in the conversation here. :)First, like always, I'm struck by the nice way you use words. Your intellect shows through your posts. And I'm sorry you're hurting so badly over the ex-T. It's truly a shame. I know what it's like to obsess over someone and think about them all the time (stories better told another time, though.) I sympathize and I hope you're able to move on soon and forget all about him. Take care of yourself!
JenStar
Posted by Susan47 on April 23, 2005, at 13:17:22
In reply to Re: Sublimation and Subjugation » Susan47, posted by Jen Star on April 22, 2005, at 19:49:44
This is the end of the thread.
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