![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 54. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by fires on August 19, 2004, at 14:05:15
For the first time since 1989, I am planning to see a therapist. CBT only, for physical illness coping.
My therapist (likely "she") will be informed of my rules on my initial visit. Any violation of my rules may result in my therapy being summarily ended. The rules are that I will not tolerate any of the following behaviors on her part:
1) Stating/implying that my symptoms are due to "emotions" and/or "stress".
2)Any attempt to coerce me into believing any theory of hers -- that I have rejected.
3)Addressing me by my first name prior to asking my permission to do so.
4) Any behavior on her part that indicates that her thinking is too "fringe" for me or blatantly unscientific.
5)If she tolerates any behavior on my part which is whiny and/or age inappropriate.
6)If she fails to stay alert and/or awake.
7)If she encourages "needy" behaviors on my part.
8)If she fails to give me my total amount of time (50 mins. ?)
Of course, I can choose not to summarily terminate her if I decide not to.
Follow-ups to follow.
Posted by Miss Honeychurch on August 19, 2004, at 14:32:43
In reply to return to therapy, posted by fires on August 19, 2004, at 14:05:15
fires, how'd you find this therapist? I assume she passed the phone interview part?
My T would have passed all of your requirements except the first name bit. And I think it's pretty good of you to give her all of your requirements UP FRONT.
PLease let me know how you like the CBT. I have found it very helpful with my anxiety.
Posted by Susan47 on August 19, 2004, at 14:55:10
In reply to return to therapy, posted by fires on August 19, 2004, at 14:05:15
Please take this with a grain of salt, Fires, but then again ... it sounds like some part of you really doesn't want to see a therapist. What do you think? I'm really saying this gently, please take it that way. I'm probably all wrong, right?
Posted by underthecs on August 19, 2004, at 15:00:49
In reply to return to therapy, posted by fires on August 19, 2004, at 14:05:15
What if, in introducing herself to you, she calls you by your first name before you present The Rules?
The premise of CBT (as I understand it) is that our thoughts (and not external things) cause our feelings and behaviors. So, if she were to suggest that your thoughts are affecting your emotions and level of stress, which are then exacerbating your physical illness, is this a violation of your Rule #1?
What do you mean by "tolerates any behavior" on your "part which is whiny and/or age inappropriate?" Do you already know how you want her to respond if you do exhibit these behaviors (which are perfectly acceptable and good grist for the therapy mill, by the way)? Are you going to warn her that she is to respond only in a certain manner to you?
Are you concerned that she will not stay alert or awake? What makes you think this is going to be a problem?
Do you have a list of Rules for yourself as well? Do you have any responsibilities in the therapeutic relationship, other than firing your therapist for being human? What if your therapist provided you with a list of Rules at your first session, and advised you that if you do not follow them to her liking, she can terminate therapy with you without your input?
Just curious as to why you seem so adamant about eliminating the human element of therapy. What is it that you want to get out of this therapy? Whether we like it or not, all relationships (and this includes the therapeutic one) require compromise and negotiation. Are you afraid of the relationship?
What is your history in regards to therapy (treatment modality, length of treatment, quality of the therapeutic relationship, outcome, etc.)?
Posted by fires on August 19, 2004, at 16:18:46
In reply to Re: return to therapy, posted by Miss Honeychurch on August 19, 2004, at 14:32:43
> fires, how'd you find this therapist? I assume she passed the phone interview part?
>
> My T would have passed all of your requirements except the first name bit. And I think it's pretty good of you to give her all of your requirements UP FRONT.
>
> PLease let me know how you like the CBT. I have found it very helpful with my anxiety.I was given the names of a couple of Ts by an MD. No phone interview yet. If it's like my PDoc, you don't get one. First visit = pay -- then decide whether or not you want to continue.
I wouldn't consider seeing anyone without having rules up front. I would tell you why, but I might get blocked/banned again -- even if I do use I language.
Posted by fires on August 19, 2004, at 16:22:09
In reply to Re: return to therapy, posted by Susan47 on August 19, 2004, at 14:55:10
> Please take this with a grain of salt, Fires, but then again ... it sounds like some part of you really doesn't want to see a therapist. What do you think? I'm really saying this gently, please take it that way. I'm probably all wrong, right?
Yes, you are all wrong, and I'm very tired of people asking me rhetorical questions which assume how I feel. Please do not respond to any of my posts in the future. Thanks.
Posted by Glydin on August 19, 2004, at 16:35:32
In reply to Re: return to therapy » Susan47, posted by fires on August 19, 2004, at 16:22:09
Posted by fires on August 19, 2004, at 16:43:07
In reply to Re: return to therapy/Questions » fires, posted by underthecs on August 19, 2004, at 15:00:49
> What if, in introducing herself to you, she calls you by your first name before you present The Rules?
I'll decide if and when that happens.
>
> The premise of CBT (as I understand it) is that our thoughts (and not external things) cause our feelings and behaviors. So, if she were to suggest that your thoughts are affecting your emotions and level of stress, which are then exacerbating your physical illness, is this a violation of your Rule #1?Yes.
> What do you mean by "tolerates any behavior" on your "part which is whiny and/or age inappropriate?" Do you already know how you want her to respond if you do exhibit these behaviors (which are perfectly acceptable and good grist for the therapy mill, by the way)? Are you going to warn her that she is to respond only in a certain manner to you?
I don't believe that those behaviors are perfectly acceptable and good grist for the therapy mill. One warning.
>
> Are you concerned that she will not stay alert or awake? What makes you think this is going to be a problem?I've had it happen in the past. Maybe this T will drink lots of coffee. ;)
>
> Do you have a list of Rules for yourself as well? Do you have any responsibilities in the therapeutic relationship, other than firing your therapist for being human? What if your therapist provided you with a list of Rules at your first session, and advised you that if you do not follow them to her liking, she can terminate therapy with you without your input?I'd read the Ts rules and if I didn't like them, I wouldn't see that T. I had this happen to me. When hospitalized in 1988 for Dep., my MD was a great pschopharmacologist, but had a private practice to attend to that was to far from the hospital. A psychiarist handled my daily visits.
He told me on my first visit (in the hospital) that I had to do everything he said, or I would not be his patient. I had to go to all group sessions and take part in all activities (except going to Mass [a Catholic run hosp]). I also had to go on a walk daily. Mind you other Dep. patients, of other Pdocs were allowed to stay in bed all day and do whatever they wanted.
>
> Just curious as to why you seem so adamant about eliminating the human element of therapy. What is it that you want to get out of this therapy? Whether we like it or not, all relationships (and this includes the therapeutic one) require compromise and negotiation. Are you afraid of the relationship?Sorry, I'm tired of those rhetorical questions which attempt to put words in my mouth/ and/or paint me in a certain light. Your question about why I'm so adamant about... is like being asked by a policeman: "so, when did you stop hitting your wife." I think I should have read all of your questions before I answered any of them.
Please don't respond to any of my posts from now on. Thanks.
>
> What is your history in regards to therapy (treatment modality, length of treatment, quality of the therapeutic relationship, outcome, etc.)?
>
>
>
>
Posted by fires on August 19, 2004, at 17:01:10
In reply to Save money, buy a book instead (nm), posted by Glydin on August 19, 2004, at 16:35:32
Sarcasm? Real Humor? I don't know what to say since I don't know what the intent of your comment was.
Thanks
Posted by jane d on August 19, 2004, at 17:09:41
In reply to return to therapy, posted by fires on August 19, 2004, at 14:05:15
Hi fires,
I'm too disorganized to actually post much so we haven't communicated yet but I think I share some of your views. I've always been very skeptical of therapy and therapists particularly the ones that seemed determined to ignore the physical side of some behaviors.
I tried therapy recently encouraged by some of the members of this board and was pleasantly surprised. It's easy to forget that we aren't the only ones reading up on the research and adapting our opinions. I think a lot of therapists (in my opinion the good ones) have changed their thinking a lot since 1989. And there is a whole new generation who went thru training with the need to reconcile the actions of medication with their theories. Some of them did.
I hope you go in expecting the best. I don't think I did but I hope I hid it well. The problem I see with your approach if you really are that aggressive you seriously risk offending the kind of therapist that you do want. Nobody reacts well to being convicted in advance. A therapist who is respectful, non dogmatic and scientifically oriented is not going to appreciate you coming in assuming he is an idiot. He may not even know the history of attitudes that you are objecting to. Remember that the last bad therapist you encountered back in 1989 may well have left the field long before your current therapist even entered it. (If it makes you better try visualizing that former therapist now retired and living in a trailer in florida - at least until the storm last week :) )
I agree with most of what you say you expect in a therapist but disagree with some of the details. And the very first is that you have to demand everything. I guess I feel that if you have to demand this stuff then you've already got a problem and should go somewhere else. I found that all the things I would have stated as my "rules" were voluntarily offered. Often with an attitude of "of course. how could it be any other way." That was definately reassuring.
Now to nitpick point by point. (Don't you love it when a stranger does that to you? The joys of the internet!) And, that nitpicking is one of the things my therapist has to put up with even tho we never did discuss it.
> For the first time since 1989, I am planning to see a therapist. CBT only, for physical illness coping.
I believe I've seen you mention Fibromyalgia and CFS, right? I know thats a touchy subject to those who suffer from it for all the years of people insisting they didn't exist because they coulddn't identify a mechanism. But my complaint is depression and I'm a firm believer in biological causes for depression so I object to your making that distinction. I hope I'm misreading you here. Somewhere I read a description of therapy as a way of helping people cope with a physical illness (and it was mental illness being referred to) rather than as a cure for it. And a necessary way of helping since we are a long way off from a real cure. That feels about right to me.
>
> My therapist (likely "she") will be informed of my rules on my initial visit. Any violation of my rules may result in my therapy being summarily ended. The rules are that I will not tolerate any of the following behaviors on her part:I'm not sure of your gender so I don't know if the issue here is the difference between male and female therapists (I have no idea if there is one but I wouldn't be surprised) or if what you want is someone the same sex as you or the opposite. Whatever it is you should do what feels comfortable to you. I feel strongly that I want to talk to another woman but it's not something I had the confidence to make an issue of when I was younger. I felt guilty about feeling that way and that I should "work it thru". At this point in my life I feel that I have far more important things to "work thru" than how I relate to therapists. Sure a specific therapist of the opposite sex might work for me but why stack the deck against myself from the outset. See who makes you comfortable without apology.
>
> 1) Stating/implying that my symptoms are due to "emotions" and/or "stress".Again. I'm very very convinced that stress is a physical thing. I think it's possible that somewhere in the chain of events there is a non physical trigger but that we are so far from understanding it that it might as well not exist. Further I think you do get some kind of reciprocal interaction going that I don't even want to begin to think about. Any theory that claims that all physical symtoms are caused by something in the environment has to account for all the people who do just fine under the same conditions. I've seen this in myself. But I've also seem myself react to circumstances. So which part of this is the stress?
> 2)Any attempt to coerce me into believing any theory of hers -- that I have rejected.
I would think that this should go without saying. Bearing in mind that disagreement is not necessarily coercion. At least not for everybody. My therapist and I don't agree completely about psychology I know. But she's never been disrespectful of what I believe and since I respect her, and since our opinions on many things seem so similar I find the differences interesting. Who knows. She might end up convincing me of some of it. There's plenty I don't understand - especially when you get into that "touchy feely" stuff (no offense to anyone here intended - I'm just trying to mock my own rather strong biological biases).
>
> 3)Addressing me by my first name prior to asking my permission to do so.I absolutely don't agree with this. I don't much like formality. Of course I expect to be able to use first names in return. But I wouldn't hold it against someone if they weren't sure about that up front. After all they might have just finished a session with you and been convinced of the importance of last names. I just want them to end up doing it the way I'm comfortable. I don't mind telling them that. (Well actually I very much mind having to ask for things like that but I'm trying to get over it.)
>
> 4) Any behavior on her part that indicates that her thinking is too "fringe" for me or blatantly unscientific.Absolutely!! I think this falls under that "compatibility" criteria for therapists that never gets defined. But, if her last 9 opinions have been reasonable, I'd certainly ask a lot of follow up questions before I was sure that the 10th really was fringe and not a misunderstanding. I'm also careful these days not to assume that people are using terms the same way I understand them. Just because your therapist uses a buzz word that has been adopted by a fringe group doesn't mean she is endorsing that part of their ideas. The various understandings of the word feminism, a term I've been attached to for many, many years, currently floating around are the best example of that I can think of. (Actually there's a whole other diatribe there about the politics of that situation that I probably should leave alone).
>
> 5)If she tolerates any behavior on my part which is whiny and/or age inappropriate.I don't know. I guess this is a personal preference. I'm for tolerance but not encouragement. I was asked at the very beginning however what I wanted out of her, and I think my response probably indicated something like that. I have no idea if she treats everyone that way. For the rest, I try to take responsibility for not bringing whiny or inappropriate behavior into the room. So far it works.
>
> 6)If she fails to stay alert and/or awake.Of course. One of the things that amazes me is how focused therapists can be. I couldn't possibly do that for an hour but I'd love to learn that trick (technique?).
>
> 7)If she encourages "needy" behaviors on my part.I agree. I really dislike the concept that you encourage dependancy to later overcome it. Seems to me later often doesn't come. And in the meantime you've lost your freedom to leave the therapy relationship. It makes me think of the kind of person in the office that protects there own job by making sure nobody else can find where they hid things. Of course it may be that excessive independance is one of my "issues" but if it is it's one I'm quite comfortable with.
>
> 8)If she fails to give me my total amount of time (50 mins. ?)Of course but I'm a bit more flexible. If once in a while I'm cut short by a few minutes I'm not going to quibble. Especially if once in a while we go over by a few minutes. Again, it's a courtesy that I would happily extend any co worker who I liked (and not so happily extend to those I didn't).
>
> Of course, I can choose not to summarily terminate her if I decide not to.Of course. Again. This should go without saying. But if you ever feel like you are doing her a favor by not terminating her, rather than just making allowances for human imperfection in someone who is otherwise helpful, then you absolutely should get out of there as fast as you can.
I guess that the nutshell version of this all which maybe I should have started with is I do not believe that therapists should get respect because they are therapists and you are a patient. I think that's backward. I think you should never get into a therapy relationship with someone you don't respect. And that respect is going to come in part from your finding the right person rather than demanding standard of outward behavior from them. I think I got lucky here and I hope you have the same good luck.
I think for your own peace of mind you should walk in taking for granted that that is exactly what you will get. It sounds to me like you already have the strength to walk away and find someone else if you don't so you don't need to rehearse that part the way I would need to. You're one up on me there.
>
> Follow-ups to follow.Looking forward to them. I haven't written or posted this much in ages. I think you got a disjointed version of all the things that have been floating around in my mind over the last few months. Well not all of the things for which you should be very grateful.
Jane
PS. Who I am. Basically scientifically oriented, hates things that can't be proved, and have a great deal of trouble understanding them often. get very frustrated with people who don't understand the difference between what is proved or not and get even more frustrated when I think they are basically preaching my views but "getting it wrong".
And who, changeling child that she was, grew up in a family of social services types that thought things like math kind of strange. So I know first hand that there are very very good people out there who are honest, do care, and try to keep up to date. And who don't always buy all the jargon that gets into the media. Good people even if they do have to read those journal articles three or four times to get any sense out of them and can't do statistics in their heads.Again good luck. And some time we should have a conversation about how to ensure everyone gets a good therapist first time out.
Posted by Glydin on August 19, 2004, at 17:28:02
In reply to Re: Save money, buy a book instead » Glydin, posted by fires on August 19, 2004, at 17:01:10
> Sarcasm?
No
>Real Humor?
Not really
>I don't know what to say since I don't know what the intent of your comment was.
Merely a suggestion that could be a better option with the added bonus of not requiring as much money.
Posted by Larry Hoover on August 19, 2004, at 17:55:12
In reply to Re: Save money, buy a book instead » Glydin, posted by fires on August 19, 2004, at 17:01:10
> Sarcasm? Real Humor? I don't know what to say since I don't know what the intent of your comment was.
>
> ThanksI took it as a serious suggestion. There isn't the same interpersonal element. I can't see a book calling you by your first name, for example. You can go to Chapters, scan the books at your leasure, and pick one according to your taste. And I bet it will continue to behave itself after it's in your possession.
Lar
Posted by fires on August 19, 2004, at 19:52:06
In reply to Re: Save money, buy a book instead, posted by Glydin on August 19, 2004, at 17:28:02
> > Sarcasm?
>
> No
>
> >Real Humor?
>
> Not really
>
> >I don't know what to say since I don't know what the intent of your comment was.
>
> Merely a suggestion that could be a better option with the added bonus of not requiring as much money.
>Yeah, but like Mark Twain said: "Be careful of what you read in health books, you could die of a misprint" (hope I got it correct).
Posted by fires on August 19, 2004, at 19:54:15
In reply to Re: Save money, buy a book instead » fires, posted by Larry Hoover on August 19, 2004, at 17:55:12
> > Sarcasm? Real Humor? I don't know what to say since I don't know what the intent of your comment was.
> >
> > Thanks
>
> I took it as a serious suggestion. There isn't the same interpersonal element. I can't see a book calling you by your first name, for example. You can go to Chapters, scan the books at your leasure, and pick one according to your taste. And I bet it will continue to behave itself after it's in your possession.
>
> Lar
>I assume it will behave itself, until dust mites and unseen molds render it an "enemy." (allergic)
Posted by fires on August 19, 2004, at 20:22:15
In reply to Re: return to therapy » fires, posted by jane d on August 19, 2004, at 17:09:41
> Hi fires,
>
> I'm too disorganized to actually post much so we haven't communicated yet but I think I share some of your views. I've always been very skeptical of therapy and therapists particularly the ones that seemed determined to ignore the physical side of some behaviors.
>
> I tried therapy recently encouraged by some of the members of this board and was pleasantly surprised. It's easy to forget that we aren't the only ones reading up on the research and adapting our opinions. I think a lot of therapists (in my opinion the good ones) have changed their thinking a lot since 1989. And there is a whole new generation who went thru training with the need to reconcile the actions of medication with their theories. Some of them did.
>
> I hope you go in expecting the best. I don't think I did but I hope I hid it well. The problem I see with your approach if you really are that aggressive you seriously risk offending the kind of therapist that you do want. Nobody reacts well to being convicted in advance. A therapist who is respectful, non dogmatic and scientifically oriented is not going to appreciate you coming in assuming he is an idiot. He may not even know the history of attitudes that you are objecting to. Remember that the last bad therapist you encountered back in 1989 may well have left the field long before your current therapist even entered it. (If it makes you better try visualizing that former therapist now retired and living in a trailer in florida - at least until the storm last week :) )
>
> I agree with most of what you say you expect in a therapist but disagree with some of the details. And the very first is that you have to demand everything. I guess I feel that if you have to demand this stuff then you've already got a problem and should go somewhere else. I found that all the things I would have stated as my "rules" were voluntarily offered. Often with an attitude of "of course. how could it be any other way." That was definately reassuring.
>
> Now to nitpick point by point. (Don't you love it when a stranger does that to you? The joys of the internet!) And, that nitpicking is one of the things my therapist has to put up with even tho we never did discuss it.
>
> > For the first time since 1989, I am planning to see a therapist. CBT only, for physical illness coping.
>
> I believe I've seen you mention Fibromyalgia and CFS, right? I know thats a touchy subject to those who suffer from it for all the years of people insisting they didn't exist because they coulddn't identify a mechanism. But my complaint is depression and I'm a firm believer in biological causes for depression so I object to your making that distinction. I hope I'm misreading you here. Somewhere I read a description of therapy as a way of helping people cope with a physical illness (and it was mental illness being referred to) rather than as a cure for it. And a necessary way of helping since we are a long way off from a real cure. That feels about right to me.
>I don't distinguish in my mind any difference between "mental" and "physical" illnesses. to me they are all brain/neuro/biological illnesses.
I look forward to the day when even the "psychological" disorders are proven to be physical.
> > My therapist (likely "she") will be informed of my rules on my initial visit. Any violation of my rules may result in my therapy being summarily ended. The rules are that I will not tolerate any of the following behaviors on her part:
>
> I'm not sure of your gender so I don't know if the issue here is the difference between male and female therapists (I have no idea if there is one but I wouldn't be surprised) or if what you want is someone the same sex as you or the opposite. Whatever it is you should do what feels comfortable to you. I feel strongly that I want to talk to another woman but it's not something I had the confidence to make an issue of when I was younger. I felt guilty about feeling that way and that I should "work it thru". At this point in my life I feel that I have far more important things to "work thru" than how I relate to therapists. Sure a specific therapist of the opposite sex might work for me but why stack the deck against myself from the outset. See who makes you comfortable without apology.
>I think I prefer a female T.. There's a chance she could have the looks of a bikini model -- therefore if I don't like her as a T, I can at least enjoy her physical beauty for one visit.;)
> > 1) Stating/implying that my symptoms are due to "emotions" and/or "stress".
>
> Again. I'm very very convinced that stress is a physical thing. I think it's possible that somewhere in the chain of events there is a non physical trigger but that we are so far from understanding it that it might as well not exist. Further I think you do get some kind of reciprocal interaction going that I don't even want to begin to think about. Any theory that claims that all physical symtoms are caused by something in the environment has to account for all the people who do just fine under the same conditions. I've seen this in myself. But I've also seem myself react to circumstances. So which part of this is the stress?
>I've always been told that Hans Selye's (sp)original research on stress, only dealt with phsical stress and that the psychs later stole the word to mean emotional stress. Much like what has happened to the word addiction.
> 2)Any attempt to coerce me into believing any theory of hers -- that I have rejected.
>
> I would think that this should go without saying. Bearing in mind that disagreement is not necessarily coercion. At least not for everybody. My therapist and I don't agree completely about psychology I know. But she's never been disrespectful of what I believe and since I respect her, and since our opinions on many things seem so similar I find the differences interesting. Who knows. She might end up convincing me of some of it. There's plenty I don't understand - especially when you get into that "touchy feely" stuff (no offense to anyone here intended - I'm just trying to mock my own rather strong biological biases).
>Good points.
> > 3)Addressing me by my first name prior to asking my permission to do so.
>
> I absolutely don't agree with this. I don't much like formality. Of course I expect to be able to use first names in return. But I wouldn't hold it against someone if they weren't sure about that up front. After all they might have just finished a session with you and been convinced of the importance of last names. I just want them to end up doing it the way I'm comfortable. I don't mind telling them that. (Well actually I very much mind having to ask for things like that but I'm trying to get over it.)
>I must admit that I threw that one in for emphasis. No big deal, as long as she doesn't add a y or ie to the end of my name.
> > 4) Any behavior on her part that indicates that her thinking is too "fringe" for me or blatantly unscientific.
>
> Absolutely!! I think this falls under that "compatibility" criteria for therapists that never gets defined. But, if her last 9 opinions have been reasonable, I'd certainly ask a lot of follow up questions before I was sure that the 10th really was fringe and not a misunderstanding. I'm also careful these days not to assume that people are using terms the same way I understand them. Just because your therapist uses a buzz word that has been adopted by a fringe group doesn't mean she is endorsing that part of their ideas. The various understandings of the word feminism, a term I've been attached to for many, many years, currently floating around are the best example of that I can think of. (Actually there's a whole other diatribe there about the politics of that situation that I probably should leave alone).
>
If there's one thing I've learned on the web -- it's how easy people can read too much into what I say - and/or say that I said something that I didn't.
> 5)If she tolerates any behavior on my part which is whiny and/or age inappropriate.
>
> I don't know. I guess this is a personal preference. I'm for tolerance but not encouragement. I was asked at the very beginning however what I wanted out of her, and I think my response probably indicated something like that. I have no idea if she treats everyone that way. For the rest, I try to take responsibility for not bringing whiny or inappropriate behavior into the room. So far it works.No comment. ;)
> > 6)If she fails to stay alert and/or awake.
>
> Of course. One of the things that amazes me is how focused therapists can be. I couldn't possibly do that for an hour but I'd love to learn that trick (technique?).
>
It just might be the coffee. I know many are hooked on it (as are many in the world today).
> > 7)If she encourages "needy" behaviors on my part.
>
> I agree. I really dislike the concept that you encourage dependancy to later overcome it. Seems to me later often doesn't come. And in the meantime you've lost your freedom to leave the therapy relationship. It makes me think of the kind of person in the office that protects there own job by making sure nobody else can find where they hid things. Of course it may be that excessive independance is one of my "issues" but if it is it's one I'm quite comfortable with.
>
LOL, at comment about the employee who makes sure that only they know where things are.
> > 8)If she fails to give me my total amount of time (50 mins. ?)
>
> Of course but I'm a bit more flexible. If once in a while I'm cut short by a few minutes I'm not going to quibble. Especially if once in a while we go over by a few minutes. Again, it's a courtesy that I would happily extend any co worker who I liked (and not so happily extend to those I didn't).
> >
> > Of course, I can choose not to summarily terminate her if I decide not to.
>
> Of course. Again. This should go without saying. But if you ever feel like you are doing her a favor by not terminating her, rather than just making allowances for human imperfection in someone who is otherwise helpful, then you absolutely should get out of there as fast as you can.
>
> I guess that the nutshell version of this all which maybe I should have started with is I do not believe that therapists should get respect because they are therapists and you are a patient. I think that's backward. I think you should never get into a therapy relationship with someone you don't respect. And that respect is going to come in part from your finding the right person rather than demanding standard of outward behavior from them. I think I got lucky here and I hope you have the same good luck.
>
> I think for your own peace of mind you should walk in taking for granted that that is exactly what you will get. It sounds to me like you already have the strength to walk away and find someone else if you don't so you don't need to rehearse that part the way I would need to. You're one up on me there.
>
> >
> > Follow-ups to follow.
>
> Looking forward to them. I haven't written or posted this much in ages. I think you got a disjointed version of all the things that have been floating around in my mind over the last few months. Well not all of the things for which you should be very grateful.I'll have to reconsider my rules,in light of your comments.
I haven't written this much in ages. I can't type worth beans, either.
>
> Jane
>
> PS. Who I am. Basically scientifically oriented, hates things that can't be proved, and have a great deal of trouble understanding them often. get very frustrated with people who don't understand the difference between what is proved or not and get even more frustrated when I think they are basically preaching my views but "getting it wrong".
> And who, changeling child that she was, grew up in a family of social services types that thought things like math kind of strange. So I know first hand that there are very very good people out there who are honest, do care, and try to keep up to date. And who don't always buy all the jargon that gets into the media. Good people even if they do have to read those journal articles three or four times to get any sense out of them and can't do statistics in their heads.
>
> Again good luck. And some time we should have a conversation about how to ensure everyone gets a good therapist first time out.Agreed. Thanks.
Posted by JenStar on August 19, 2004, at 20:45:39
In reply to Re: return to therapy » Susan47, posted by fires on August 19, 2004, at 16:22:09
Fires,
if you keep banning people from talking to you (two already, correct?) you're soon going to have no one with whom to converse! (Are you going to ban ME, now, for questioning you?)It seems to me that you don't really know how to get along with people through the written word. You tend to misinterpret things, find fault where none was intended, and-- for one who claims to hate being assigned motivations and blame -- are VERY quick to assign motives to others!
I agree with Susan: Reading betw. the lines, you DON'T seem very open to therapy. So many ground rules -- coupled with your other posts -- makes the written "fires" seem rigid, inflexible, and emotionally unavailable.
It's hard to 'write nice' to you -- you disagree with so much. What do you really want here? There is an underlying tone here of "touchy feeling" helping hands on Babble (maybe not in my message, obviously, but a general trend) -- and it seems that you don't like such things. Are you trying to reach out? Do you consider yourself to be a considerate person? Do you have friends in 'real life?' Are you trying to make friends on Babble? Do you realize that you're going about it the wrong way?
I'm interested in your response. If Dr. Bob bans me...so be it. I'll read the answers...and come back (hopefully in a better mood!) in a few (?) weeks.
JenStar
I have toyed with the idea of whether you are really "you" or a prankster jerking us all around and seeing how we react to such an inflammatory person!
I don't think Susan was trying to insult you. She was asking a question, and couched it in tender language to insulate you from pain.
> > Please take this with a grain of salt, Fires, but then again ... it sounds like some part of you really doesn't want to see a therapist. What do you think? I'm really saying this gently, please take it that way. I'm probably all wrong, right?
>
> Yes, you are all wrong, and I'm very tired of people asking me rhetorical questions which assume how I feel. Please do not respond to any of my posts in the future. Thanks.
>
Posted by Glydin on August 19, 2004, at 20:46:52
In reply to Re: Save money, buy a book instead » Glydin, posted by fires on August 19, 2004, at 19:52:06
> Yeah, but like Mark Twain said: "Be careful of what you read in health books, you could die of a misprint" (hope I got it correct).
~~~Or of what you can read on health boards.
Posted by Miss Honeychurch on August 19, 2004, at 21:23:07
In reply to return to therapy, posted by fires on August 19, 2004, at 14:05:15
fires, I'm sorry if you have answered this before. I tended not to read a lot of posts a few weeks back when things got heated so forgive my ignorance if you have answered this question or if I have misinterpreted you.
You mention you won't tolerate your therapist implying or stating that your physical problems may be due to anxiety or stress. Do you believe this is true for everyone or just you? Do you think that stress or anxiety can cause actual physical problems?
Posted by fires on August 19, 2004, at 21:36:25
In reply to Re: return to therapy, posted by JenStar on August 19, 2004, at 20:45:39
> Fires,
> if you keep banning people from talking to you (two already, correct?) you're soon going to have no one with whom to converse! (Are you going to ban ME, now, for questioning you?)Then so be it
> It seems to me that you don't really know how to get along with people through the written word. You tend to misinterpret things, find fault where none was intended, and-- for one who claims to hate being assigned motivations and blame -- are VERY quick to assign motives to others!
Maybe your correct, but that doesn't make me feel any less attacked.
> I agree with Susan: Reading betw. the lines, you DON'T seem very open to therapy. So many ground rules -- coupled with your other posts -- makes the written "fires" seem rigid, inflexible, and emotionally unavailable.
Things aren't always what they seem.
> It's hard to 'write nice' to you -- you disagree with so much. What do you really want here? There is an underlying tone here of "touchy feeling" helping hands on Babble (maybe not in my message, obviously, but a general trend) -- and it seems that you don't like such things. Are you trying to reach out? Do you consider yourself to be a considerate person? Do you have friends in 'real life?' Are you trying to make friends on Babble? Do you realize that you're going about it the wrong way?Your Q.: "what do I really want here?" is extremely offensive to me. I now am telling you that I don't want you to reply to any of my posts. I'll ignore your other extremely offensive and rhetorical questions above.
> I'm interested in your response. If Dr. Bob bans me...so be it. I'll read the answers...and come back (hopefully in a better mood!) in a few (?) weeks.If Dr. Bob doesn't ban you then there is no justice on this group. I never came close to attacking anyone the way you just attacked me. Putting your attacks in the form of questions just doesn't work.
> JenStar
>
> I have toyed with the idea of whether you are really "you" or a prankster jerking us all around and seeing how we react to such an inflammatory person!
OK. Next time you might try not calling me an "inflammatory person." That's very offensive to my sensibilities.
>
>
>
>
>
> I don't think Susan was trying to insult you. She was asking a question, and couched it in tender language to insulate you from pain.
>
Thanks for your opinion, but I disagree. I think she used the same rhetorical Q. technique that you just demonstrated.>
> > > Please take this with a grain of salt, Fires, but then again ... it sounds like some part of you really doesn't want to see a therapist. What do you think? I'm really saying this gently, please take it that way. I'm probably all wrong, right?<<Please. After you attack me, you say, "please take this with a grain of salt" then you proceed with the rhetorical questions again -- after I've clearly explained why they are so offensive.
To anyone:
I'm not familiar with how to go about "reporting" verbal abuse here. Do I need to report it, or does Dr. Bob read every post?Please let me know. :(
Posted by fires on August 19, 2004, at 21:45:46
In reply to Re: Save money, buy a book instead, posted by Glydin on August 19, 2004, at 20:46:52
> > Yeah, but like Mark Twain said: "Be careful of what you read in health books, you could die of a misprint" (hope I got it correct).
>
>
> ~~~Or of what you can read on health boards.That's a roger.
Posted by Larry Hoover on August 19, 2004, at 22:31:00
In reply to Re: return to therapy » JenStar, posted by fires on August 19, 2004, at 21:36:25
> To anyone:
> I'm not familiar with how to go about "reporting" verbal abuse here. Do I need to report it, or does Dr. Bob read every post?
>
> Please let me know. :(There are two easy ways.... cut and paste the whole message to him (or excerpts) with a link, and email it to him (his email is at the bottom of every board). Or, do the same thing, but post it under an appropriate heading on the Admin board. To link to a particular post, you can find the URL way down at the very bottom of the post, the very last line of text. Pick an appropriate subject line.
With a long post like the one you're wondering about, you're better off editing it down to one or more sentences that concern you.
Then, you see what Bob thinks about the whole deal. I'll tell you now, sometimes people don't agree with Bob about what is civil or not.
Lar
Posted by Susan47 on August 19, 2004, at 22:48:40
In reply to Re: return to therapy, posted by JenStar on August 19, 2004, at 20:45:39
Save your energy. You're too good for this. And so am I.
Posted by fires on August 19, 2004, at 22:52:18
In reply to Re: return to therapy » fires, posted by Larry Hoover on August 19, 2004, at 22:31:00
> > To anyone:
> > I'm not familiar with how to go about "reporting" verbal abuse here. Do I need to report it, or does Dr. Bob read every post?
> >
> > Please let me know. :(
>
> There are two easy ways.... cut and paste the whole message to him (or excerpts) with a link, and email it to him (his email is at the bottom of every board). Or, do the same thing, but post it under an appropriate heading on the Admin board. To link to a particular post, you can find the URL way down at the very bottom of the post, the very last line of text. Pick an appropriate subject line.
>
> With a long post like the one you're wondering about, you're better off editing it down to one or more sentences that concern you.
>
> Then, you see what Bob thinks about the whole deal. I'll tell you now, sometimes people don't agree with Bob about what is civil or not.
>
> LarThanks for info.. It will have to wait until tomorrow, though.
Or, since I'm coming off 2 straight bans, it may be best to keep quiet and see what happens.
Posted by AuntieMel on August 19, 2004, at 23:11:03
In reply to return to therapy, posted by fires on August 19, 2004, at 14:05:15
Welcome Back!!
I know you've been interested for a while about CBT as an alternative. I'm glad you're going to give it a shot. I personally think it's a methodology that is well suited to you. Remember, though that competent and compatible are also part of the mix for success, so if it doesn't seem to be going well with one therapist after a good effort, then find another one.
You certainly should advise your potential therapist of any rules you have. You might also want to tell which you are the most adamant about.
1989 is a long time ago....I was about to (finally) graduate from college that year. So many things have changed since then. Maybe discussions of new techniques should be given the behefit of the doubt at least until they are explained.
I know you've had a bad time with having true physical ailments being passed off as 'all in your head' I'm sure if you explain to the new therapist what you went through with that, s(he) will understand.
By the way, have you seen the cardio doc yet? How did it go?
First name? Might want to reconsider that one. What if she *does* look good in a bikini?
For some of the others - if you have already been recommended to CBT therapists they shouldn't be an issue. Why would a CBT person talk about other therapies? To get rid of you? Not likely. And a CBTer isn't likely to encourage whininess or neediness - the job is to get you *away* from that.
Take a water gun with you - just in case she goes to sleep..
You'd probably like the guy I go to. There is such a professional atmosphere it wouldn't even occur to
me to get attached. I've been going for a good while - first year was mainly small talk - my choice, trust issues. Today he said I've been there longer than anyone he's ever seen. Most are only there 10 - 15 weeks. I've just got a lot of damage to repair.You seem to be getting the hang of the I statements.;)
Again, welcome back.
Mel
Posted by AuntieMel on August 19, 2004, at 23:27:24
In reply to Re: return to therapy » fires, posted by jane d on August 19, 2004, at 17:09:41
Do you think we could be sisters? I tend to look at things logically myself. If you (the rhetorical you) give me a reasonable explanation of something I'll think about it and draw a conclusion. If it is something that requires "intuition" I'm outta there!
As for gender - I prefer male. I've got serious trust issues, but less with the guys for some reason probably having to do with my growing up.......
And I have a minor in math..
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