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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 17 of 17. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by tabitha on July 15, 2004, at 1:13:21
Another week, another emotional upheaval over therapy. The group session was rough. I told them more about how I've been reacting to the group, without my usual 'trying to say the right things and fit in' mode. They didn't seem to understand at all, and they didn't seem to want to understand. They seemed to be trying to shape it as some kind of problem with me. Which is pretty much what I anticipated. I have to admit though, their understanding was even less than I'd hoped for. It was like I was speaking Swahili or something. Yet I thought I did a decent job of stating it.
One guy said the worst thing. He said 'What I hear you saying is that you just don't want to go through any pain.' Boy that irked. All the pain I've gone through with this, and before that in individual therapy. I wasn't even ready to quit until I'm at the lowest functioning and mood in years, and my relationship with my T seems ruined beyond repair. Just huge pain, and I've stuck it out week after week. And I had just explained all that to them.
I'm mad at my T again, since she said things in group that made her seem 2-faced to me, compared to what she says in my sessions. And I'm mad that I didn't even get any understanding from her until I was suicidal and ready to quit therapy. Is that what it takes now?
Posted by fallsfall on July 15, 2004, at 8:05:50
In reply to Wanting to quit again, posted by tabitha on July 15, 2004, at 1:13:21
((((((((((Tabitha))))))))))
Maybe we should start a new club - The Completely Miserable Club.
I am in similar agony in individual therapy. I know that I have learned so much from him - so I want to believe that this pain will be productive - but I don't know that it will be. And I'm afraid to ask my therapist because I'm afraid he will say "No, this isn't productive. You are making yourself miserable" and I will feel like I've failed yet again.
I am really proud of what you did in group. That HAS to be the right thing to have done. I share your agony at not being understood.
I DO trust my therapist, and I think that you trust yours. We have both gone through "similar" pain in the past and decided that we could learn from it. I see my therapist in 6 hours...
I do find that it helps that an online friend understands... At least SOMEONE understands. She can suggest motivations of my therapist's that might make sense, but that I could never think of in a million years. At least she understands that I am in pain.
You ARE understandable. Your feelings and interpretations and understandings DO make sense. There IS a reason that you react the way that you do. This therapist has shown in the past that she DOES "get you" - sometimes it just takes a little while for the two of you to settle on agreeing about where you are.
I think that our club should include long meetings with lots of very long group hugs (for those of us who like to be hugged).
Posted by Dinah on July 15, 2004, at 8:33:19
In reply to Wanting to quit again, posted by tabitha on July 15, 2004, at 1:13:21
You really are on quite a rollercoaster right now, Tabitha. :( I wish I could make it better for you.
I wish they had a consumer manual to tell us when feeling bad in therapy is good for you, and when it's just feeling bad.
((((Tabitha)))))
Posted by JenStar on July 15, 2004, at 11:36:33
In reply to Re: Wanting to quit again » tabitha, posted by Dinah on July 15, 2004, at 8:33:19
Hey guys,
I'm somewhat new to therapy but I can't believe it's beneficial to be so wrapped up in a therapist. These people are only human: They have quirks, foibles, desires for greaness, and petty sides sometimes too. I think sometimes the therapists LIKE it when people have super-glue transference b/c it makes them feel powerful, needed, controlling. The therapist of course has the desire to help others, but being human, of COURSE they are going to have other motivations as well. Keep that in mind.It sounds like the subject often grants the therapist too much power and gives them too much benefit of the doubt. These folks are not all -powerful...they just happened to study this in school and are pretty good at relating to people. They're supposed to your guide, not your artificial leg.
I think it's important to take charge of your own therapy at times. If the group meeting, sucks, don't go! Don't let these people insult you. How can that be good for you? Would you take that from a random guy in class, in a supermarket, in line at the post office? Be careful what kind of liberties you grant others who are just are troubled (if not more so) than you are.
If your therapist isn't supportive, fire her! (Be Donald Trump: "You're Fired.")
Anyway. Hope you're doing well & feeling better. I'm thinking of you with kind thoughts.
Take Care.
JenStar> You really are on quite a rollercoaster right now, Tabitha. :( I wish I could make it better for you.
>
> I wish they had a consumer manual to tell us when feeling bad in therapy is good for you, and when it's just feeling bad.
>
> ((((Tabitha)))))
>
Posted by pinkeye on July 15, 2004, at 13:24:41
In reply to Re: Wanting to quit again, posted by JenStar on July 15, 2004, at 11:36:33
Wow JenStar, I am falling in love with your posts.
> Hey guys,
> I'm somewhat new to therapy but I can't believe it's beneficial to be so wrapped up in a therapist. These people are only human: They have quirks, foibles, desires for greaness, and petty sides sometimes too. I think sometimes the therapists LIKE it when people have super-glue transference b/c it makes them feel powerful, needed, controlling. The therapist of course has the desire to help others, but being human, of COURSE they are going to have other motivations as well. Keep that in mind.
>
> It sounds like the subject often grants the therapist too much power and gives them too much benefit of the doubt. These folks are not all -powerful...they just happened to study this in school and are pretty good at relating to people. They're supposed to your guide, not your artificial leg.
>
> I think it's important to take charge of your own therapy at times. If the group meeting, sucks, don't go! Don't let these people insult you. How can that be good for you? Would you take that from a random guy in class, in a supermarket, in line at the post office? Be careful what kind of liberties you grant others who are just are troubled (if not more so) than you are.
>
> If your therapist isn't supportive, fire her! (Be Donald Trump: "You're Fired.")
>
> Anyway. Hope you're doing well & feeling better. I'm thinking of you with kind thoughts.
>
> Take Care.
> JenStar
>
> > You really are on quite a rollercoaster right now, Tabitha. :( I wish I could make it better for you.
> >
> > I wish they had a consumer manual to tell us when feeling bad in therapy is good for you, and when it's just feeling bad.
> >
> > ((((Tabitha)))))
> >
>
>
Posted by Racer on July 15, 2004, at 15:52:55
In reply to Re: Wanting to quit again, posted by JenStar on July 15, 2004, at 11:36:33
I'm not sure if you've read any of the older posts about this subject from Tabitha, but I think the whole subject is more complex than just "transference" or "dependency." There are a lot of nuances that may be more clear to those who have read the whole story, rather than this one post.
I'm not trying to antagonize you, only to do what I can to protect Tabitha -- because this has been such a painful and distressing situation for her, I'm afraid that she might feel distressed or put down by your post. I do realize that your advice is generally good, and I believe that your intentions are the best in offering that advice. I'm only trying to suggest that you may have an incomplete understanding of the issues involved in this particular situation.
Posted by Racer on July 15, 2004, at 16:04:23
In reply to Wanting to quit again, posted by tabitha on July 15, 2004, at 1:13:21
(I always feel kinda defensive when I use an example from my own situation to illustrate a point, thus the subject line...)
I'm working on my second writing assignment right now, Tabitha, and it's about my own situation with an invalidating therapist -- whom I felt was abusive -- and the DBT group she led. It's incredibly distressing for me to write about, because every emotion I experienced during that nightmare is coming back as I try to write about it, with an underlying sense of helplessness/hopelessness/impotence/anger/despair. It's horrible, although I do think the pain involved *is* therapeutic for me.
Pain is sometimes therapeutic, of course, but what you've been describing here is just *not.* Your report of that guy saying, "Oh, you just don't want to feel any pain" sounds so much like what I've been trying to write about -- the agency personnel shifting responsibility for their misdeeds and failures back onto me, because "no one can do this for you, you have to do the *work* you know." And that sense that no one is even trying to listen? In spades, Tabs, in spades.
That guy sounds like what we used to call "est-holes" -- anyone remember E.S.T.? A lot of people I met who had been through est seemed to be totally unwilling even to consider that their behavior might legitimately have had an impact on others. That's what I've been feeling with this agency, and what I'm *sensing* from your posts about all this. They all seem to be shifting focus away from anything they may have done, and back to me (or you), because, after all, it's not what actually *happens* that counts, only how we react to it -- implicite in that seems to be a strong connotation of "overreact", at least in my case.
I'm sorry that this is still going on for you, Miss Tabby, and wish like anything I could do something to make it better. I hope knowing that others are concerned for you helps, even if there's not much else we can do. Sorry I'm not a hugger, but you've got my best wishes always.
Posted by Dinah on July 15, 2004, at 17:02:11
In reply to Re: Wanting to quit again, posted by JenStar on July 15, 2004, at 11:36:33
Ahhh, but you're new to therapy. :)
And another thing that it's hard to understand is that long term therapy and short term therapy are completely different animals and the relationships are not at *all* similar. Long term therapists use techniques that encourage dependency, but not necessarily for self aggrandizing purposes. Long term therapies *use* the therapeutic relationship as a tool for change.
My therapist, for example, is quite uncomfortable at the positive transference I have for him, and always tries to spin it into something about our relationship rather than about him as a person. But it is that positive transference that is responsible for a lot of the positive change.
There's quite a lot of literature out there about the different schools of therapy and the theoretical models of change that each employs.
And unfortunately a therapist's job isn't always to be supportive. And firing a therapist you've had a good long term relationship shouldn't be done quite as cavalierly as terminating an apprentice. You have to weigh the relationship as a whole. And you also have to really consider whether what the therapist (who has always been helpful in the past) is currently doing what is best for you, even if it doesn't feel good, or if the therapist has missed the boat, but the relationship can be salvaged, or if the therapist has missed the boat and will never be able to get back on, or if your entire experience of the therapist's helpfulness accrued over a long period of time was incorrect. It's more like divorce than firing a worker you've only known for a few weeks.
It's always difficult to determine whether the pain that arises in therapy is part of the process or if it's unnecessary pain. I've fired brand new therapists in minutes, if I don't think it's a good match. But if my current therapist were to suddenly start causing me pain, I'd have a hard time to determine whether this was healing pain or destructive pain.
Posted by JenStar on July 15, 2004, at 17:42:10
In reply to Re: Wanting to quit again » JenStar, posted by Racer on July 15, 2004, at 15:52:55
hey guys,
greetings! Hopefully no one was offended by my previous post -- I can be somewhat blunt when offering my views. I can def. tell that you have a lot of experience with therapy / therapists...sounds like you're a good sounding board for tabitha & others.As a newbie to therapy, I guess I'm concerned when I read about the somewhat one-sided depth of the relationship that many people seem to develop with their therapists. It doesn't always seem healthy for the subject, who gets in so deep that he/she seems almost entranced or ensnared by the T.
I guess for myself, I hope to get advice & ideas from the T. but always keep somewhat my core separate, to the point where I could leave without serious regrets and without despair. I'm the kind of person who likes to be in control, and it angers me to think that some T.'s seem to take over, virus-like, in a subject's soul (so to speak!) I def. want to protect myself against that because I don't think -- for me -- that it would ultimately be good for my life or my relationship with my husband & friends.
But certainly each person has to make choices about what is best for him/her. I know that everyrone has a different preferred therapy style and you should seek the comfort level you need.
My previous comments were def. not intended to hurt your feelings -- hope I didn't do that. :)
I wish each of you the best & hope that your personal therapist is doing you right. :)
take care!
JenStar
Posted by tabitha on July 15, 2004, at 23:37:51
In reply to But it's all about ME!!! » tabitha, posted by Racer on July 15, 2004, at 16:04:23
est-holes.. LOL.
Yeah, I think that guy sometimes takes the personal responsibility attitude a bit too far and ends up coming off like teflon man. Maybe he's reacting against some kind of overly enmeshed relationships. Well there I go, trying to give him the benefit of the doubt.
Yes, the lack of validation, or the opposite of validation is the hardest aspect of all this. It was a tough crowd in that session-- the 2 people who were there are the two who seem to me least understanding.
The individual session was OK tonight. We didn't focus on the group the whole time. I was afraid I'd gone too far with my blunt honesty in the group, but she said she didn't feel that way.
Maybe I'll stick it out another week with group. This is reminding me of when I used to do distance running. I'd keep deciding I was going to quit at the next marker up ahead, and somehow deciding to quit gave me enough pain relief to keep going.
Thanks for sticking up for me in this thread. I didn't really take any offense though. I think I'm at the most pleasant level of depression right now-- rather numb. I don't have the energy to take offense at anything.
Posted by tabitha on July 16, 2004, at 0:20:29
In reply to Re: Wanting to quit again » tabitha, posted by fallsfall on July 15, 2004, at 8:05:50
Seems crazy to be hurting so much over what's supposed to be healing doesn't it?
I got a few cookies in my individual session tonight, plus she planted a sneaky idea that I'd benefitted from the group. I was describing an interaction with my ex-boyfriend, and I said some things I've never said to him, and she said I was using group techniques there. Of course who can say if that's really the case.. but boy did my inner child suck up that praise. It would be great to think there's been some benefit, even if I do quit the group.
Posted by tabitha on July 16, 2004, at 0:21:57
In reply to Re: Wanting to quit again » tabitha, posted by Dinah on July 15, 2004, at 8:33:19
> I wish they had a consumer manual to tell us when feeling bad in therapy is good for you, and when it's just feeling bad.Wouldn't that be nice! I think I need some kind of indicator like that for all forms of discomfort.
Posted by tabitha on July 16, 2004, at 0:24:43
In reply to Re: Wanting to quit again, posted by JenStar on July 15, 2004, at 11:36:33
Posted by JenStar on July 16, 2004, at 1:01:04
In reply to Re: Wanting to quit again » JenStar, posted by pinkeye on July 15, 2004, at 13:24:41
really? cool! I felt like I was starting to irk some of the folks here, which def. was not my intent! Hopefully you weren't being sarcastic. :) I've been reading some of the older posts to get a better feel for each individual & I like a lot of your posts too.
Take care!
JenStar
> Wow JenStar, I am falling in love with your posts.
>
>
> > Hey guys,
> > I'm somewhat new to therapy but I can't believe it's beneficial to be so wrapped up in a therapist. These people are only human: They have quirks, foibles, desires for greaness, and petty sides sometimes too. I think sometimes the therapists LIKE it when people have super-glue transference b/c it makes them feel powerful, needed, controlling. The therapist of course has the desire to help others, but being human, of COURSE they are going to have other motivations as well. Keep that in mind.
> >
> > It sounds like the subject often grants the therapist too much power and gives them too much benefit of the doubt. These folks are not all -powerful...they just happened to study this in school and are pretty good at relating to people. They're supposed to your guide, not your artificial leg.
> >
> > I think it's important to take charge of your own therapy at times. If the group meeting, sucks, don't go! Don't let these people insult you. How can that be good for you? Would you take that from a random guy in class, in a supermarket, in line at the post office? Be careful what kind of liberties you grant others who are just are troubled (if not more so) than you are.
> >
> > If your therapist isn't supportive, fire her! (Be Donald Trump: "You're Fired.")
> >
> > Anyway. Hope you're doing well & feeling better. I'm thinking of you with kind thoughts.
> >
> > Take Care.
> > JenStar
> >
> > > You really are on quite a rollercoaster right now, Tabitha. :( I wish I could make it better for you.
> > >
> > > I wish they had a consumer manual to tell us when feeling bad in therapy is good for you, and when it's just feeling bad.
> > >
> > > ((((Tabitha)))))
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
Posted by Racer on July 16, 2004, at 13:43:52
In reply to Re: But it's all about ME!!! » Racer, posted by tabitha on July 15, 2004, at 23:37:51
Funny -- I was thinking about this last night, and the light bulb finally went on:
Despite the lack of external validation you've been getting, and despite the distress you're feeling about the whole situation, you actually do seem to be validating yourself in this. Are you aware of that? (I know that I'm often taken aback when someone tells me, "Oh, but you *did* [validate yourself/say no/defend your boundaries/whatever]..." And even if I do find that I can see it, it still doesn't always mean I actually believe it, you know?)
Anyway, in seeing that you did what you set out to do -- be honest in the group -- and that the response you got didn't feel appropriate to you, you really are offering yourself some validation. You're not saying that you're the one at fault in this -- heck, Tabs, you're not even suggesting it's a possibility anymore! -- and that seems like a darnedly healthy way of seeing the world.
Even if the rest of the world still disagrees with you.
(This was a topic in my session this morning, by the way: that even when I can see that my perceptions are consistent with my rational world view, I can still be easily convinced that I *must* be wrong. Guess we'll see what happens with that...)
All my best to you.
Posted by terrics on July 18, 2004, at 16:05:45
In reply to But it's all about ME!!! » tabitha, posted by Racer on July 15, 2004, at 16:04:23
Tabitha, did I understand you correctly, that DBT was messing you up or messed you up. I know this is hard for you, but can you tell me how? I have never been really suicidal until now. I cut more frequently then ever, and I am fearful and depressed. I think my T. is totally wacked and I am shocked ins. pays for this nutty stuff. It is a last ditch effort for me. If you have to write about it please write it to me. Maybe it will be easier if you are writing to someone. terrics
Posted by terrics on July 18, 2004, at 16:08:38
In reply to But it's all about ME!!! » tabitha, posted by Racer on July 15, 2004, at 16:04:23
This is the end of the thread.
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