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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 26. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by DaisyM on January 5, 2004, at 22:46:30
I keep thinking they are.
I am really struggling with some painful issues right now and life is sooo...complicated....that sessions are long, deep and emotional. Today, after a week, we ended up in new territory much to both of our surprise.
My Therapist said "I think you should come back tomorrow because we just pulled all this "stuff" out and I know I didn't expect it and I can see that you didn't either."
I told him that coming back was what I wanted (actually spending the night was what I wanted!) but it felt weak and indulgent and like an imposition on him. He gave me the speech again about this being "part of my therapy" (learning to lean) and it was not imposing or indulgent.
On the other hand, he probably knows that after today he is likely to get a phone call tomorrow anyway. So we set up the appointment and he said to call and cancel if I felt I didn't need it after all.
*sigh*. Does anyone else feel "guilty" about extra sessions?
Posted by Dinah on January 5, 2004, at 23:23:27
In reply to Are extra sessions self-indulgent?, posted by DaisyM on January 5, 2004, at 22:46:30
Occasionally I feel guilty. Mostly about bothering him. But generally I'm glad I did it, and I know he is too. Partly because I tend to "forget" bad feelings and if I don't go in when I'm feeling bad, the opportunity has passed to talk about it.
I keep remembering that he wouldn't offer to see me if it wasn't ok with him, and it's not my job to take care of him. But it is my job to take care of me so that I can be the best I can be for my family.
I still feel a bit guilty about the money though.
Don't beat yourself up over it, and see it as a positive step in learning to take care of yourself. I can't see you becoming overly self indulgent anytime soon. :)
Posted by Speaker on January 5, 2004, at 23:25:46
In reply to Are extra sessions self-indulgent?, posted by DaisyM on January 5, 2004, at 22:46:30
DaisyM,
You have so much going on I wish I could set down with you and convince you there is no room for guilt! You can't take care of your family if you don't take care of you...I learned the hard way! If seeing your T tomorrow makes life a bit easier what is the harm? Who keeps track but you? You pay him to be there to lean on so there shouldn't be guilt there...I know I always feel like a bother too so I give myself this speech a lot :). I vote either the T or a great massage!
Posted by Karen_kay on January 6, 2004, at 0:07:34
In reply to Are extra sessions self-indulgent?, posted by DaisyM on January 5, 2004, at 22:46:30
You shouldn't feel guilty about an extra session. He offered after all. Heck, I only wish the story went like this:
<<Today, after a week, we ended up in new territory much to both of our surprise.
***I*** said "I think I should come back tomorrow because we just pulled all this "stuff" out and I know I didn't expect it and I can see that you didn't either."
My therapist flew out of his chair and declared me all cured! THE END!An extra session isn't self-indulgent in the least. Everyone needs extra support from time to time. Maybe you feel guilty for spending the extra money (but is that why you would feel guilty?), but if that's what you need to prevent the anxiety from creeping up then do it. You aren't imposing on him. If he didn't have the time in his schedule, then he wouldn't have offered you the appointment.
<I am really struggling
*You said it yourself, you are struggling. Then get the help you need. He is offering to help you. Accept that help, and don't feel a bit guilty about it! Are you being indulgent when you eat if you are hungry? I'd say no. Then why suffer needlessly when there is someone offering you help. He's there to help you. It's his job. Don't suffer until your next appointment if he is offering to help you tomorrow. Now go tomorrow and I hope you have a better session.
I'm thinking about you hun, Karen
Posted by Dinah on January 6, 2004, at 0:10:52
In reply to Re: Are extra sessions self-indulgent? » DaisyM, posted by Karen_kay on January 6, 2004, at 0:07:34
> Are you being indulgent when you eat if you are hungry?
Karen, I really like that analogy.
Posted by Karen_kay on January 6, 2004, at 0:28:32
In reply to Re: Are extra sessions self-indulgent? » Karen_kay, posted by Dinah on January 6, 2004, at 0:10:52
Thank you, I try sometimes :)
Posted by DaisyM on January 6, 2004, at 0:35:06
In reply to Re: Are extra sessions self-indulgent? » DaisyM, posted by Dinah on January 5, 2004, at 23:23:27
It is so hard not to think you are becoming a pain in the...neck. I know, I know, it is why I am in therapy.
I don't feel guilty about the money. I'm lucky. My insurance picks up almost all of it, my part is $20/session no matter how much I go because I'm double insured. I feel guilty about spending so much time making it "all about me." I feel guilty about talking about all the bad stuff instead of finding the silver lining in everything. I feel guilty that "we" could end up in a place that surprised even him.
I like what you said Karen, about eating when you are hungry. That makes sense. And I keep telling myself that tomorrow will be about support and coping so I don't have to feel anxious about going too deep again. I told my Therapist today that I *needed* to find my own strength again to deal with all of this but I wasn't sure I ever would. He told me that is what he was for, he'd lend me his until I found mine again. And that he was sure I would again.
I wish I was as sure as he is...
Posted by DaisyM on January 6, 2004, at 0:38:24
In reply to self-indulgent / survival, posted by Speaker on January 5, 2004, at 23:25:46
Nobody gets to touch me - so massages are out. But I'll go for shoe shopping instead!
Posted by Karen_kay on January 6, 2004, at 1:03:15
In reply to Re: Are extra sessions self-indulgent?, posted by DaisyM on January 6, 2004, at 0:35:06
I feel guilty about talking about all the bad stuff instead of finding the silver lining in everything.
* Similar to this, I used to struggle with the fact that I would go in and talk about my childhood. And I felt like I was making my parents out to be horrible creatures. That I would only focus on the bad parts. That my therapist would think my parents were horrible people. And I brought it up to him. He told me that he realizes that there were aspects of my childhood that were both good and bad. But, if I told him the good parts, I would be wasting my money. I'm not there to resolve the good parts of my life, I'm there to resolve the parts that I need to change. It isn't always about finding a silver lining hun. Sometimes that isn't possible. It's about learning how to cope and learning how things are affecting you presently.
I feel guilty about spending so much time making it "all about me."
*But it isn't just about you. This is also affecting your family through you. If you aren't functioning well, then you aren't able to be 100 % for your family. When you are hurting, so is your family. And that hour that you spend away from your family will be well worth it in the long run. Think of it this way, if you don't go, the anxiety will build up all week (do you go weekly/semiweekly, whatever). This HAS an affect on your family! They can feel it! They hear it in your voice, they see it in your eyes! They know when you are hurting. If you can't do it for you, do it for them.
Posted by fallsfall on January 6, 2004, at 8:36:15
In reply to Re: Are extra sessions self-indulgent? » DaisyM, posted by Karen_kay on January 6, 2004, at 1:03:15
"I feel guilty about spending so much time making it "all about me." I feel guilty about talking about all the bad stuff instead of finding the silver lining in everything. I feel guilty that "we" could end up in a place that surprised even him."
These are exactly what you should be doing in therapy. Don't feel guilty. You are doing the RIGHT THING.
Please take the extra appointment. He wants to help and he knows that you are doing such hard work now.
We are all behind you.
Posted by crushedout on January 6, 2004, at 15:03:03
In reply to Re: Are extra sessions self-indulgent?, posted by fallsfall on January 6, 2004, at 8:36:15
The timing of this thread is so perfect and strange. I was just sitting here, struggling with myself, debating whether to ask my therapist for an extra session this week (because she's going out of town next week and we have so much to process, and I didn't really get to any of it today) when I decided to stall by looking at Babble, and I see this thread! I took it as a sign from God (although I'm an atheist, I like pretending to believe in God whenever it can justify an action I've been wanting to take) so I immediately called her to say I wanted to see her tomorrow.I know we decided to reduce the number of sessions, but in a way it's kind of a crazy time to do that since we have all this drama between us to process, which hangs over my head between sessions. On the other hand, I called her earlier today just to explore it as a possibility, explaining that I felt this urgency to see her again, but that I also wasn't sure if it was a good idea or if I was just being obsessive. She wasn't sure, either. So I asked, "Well, is it even an option?" and she said it would be difficult for her, but she could make it happen if I really felt I needed it. Is it just me, or does this seem like another boundary-issue situation to you guys?
Sorry, I'm going off on a tangent. But I do agree that it's not self-indulgent to eat when you're hungry, and therapy is helping me so much I can't really believe it. Even with all the craziness.
Posted by crushedout on January 6, 2004, at 16:57:13
In reply to Re: Are extra sessions self-indulgent?, posted by crushedout on January 6, 2004, at 15:03:03
well, she passed the test, if i was testing her (which i kind of think i was, partially). she said "no" to the extra session, even though she told me earlier if i really needed it she would make it happen. i feel oddly relieved. maybe boundaries *are* a good thing for Ts to have. who woulda thought.i could tell she was feeling really guilty and worried about disappointing me so i told her that *i* was feeling guilty about pressuring her and i was glad that she looked out for her own needs. i think that made her feel better. and i really am ok with this.
this is all really good stuff.
>
> The timing of this thread is so perfect and strange. I was just sitting here, struggling with myself, debating whether to ask my therapist for an extra session this week (because she's going out of town next week and we have so much to process, and I didn't really get to any of it today) when I decided to stall by looking at Babble, and I see this thread! I took it as a sign from God (although I'm an atheist, I like pretending to believe in God whenever it can justify an action I've been wanting to take) so I immediately called her to say I wanted to see her tomorrow.
>
> I know we decided to reduce the number of sessions, but in a way it's kind of a crazy time to do that since we have all this drama between us to process, which hangs over my head between sessions. On the other hand, I called her earlier today just to explore it as a possibility, explaining that I felt this urgency to see her again, but that I also wasn't sure if it was a good idea or if I was just being obsessive. She wasn't sure, either. So I asked, "Well, is it even an option?" and she said it would be difficult for her, but she could make it happen if I really felt I needed it. Is it just me, or does this seem like another boundary-issue situation to you guys?
>
> Sorry, I'm going off on a tangent. But I do agree that it's not self-indulgent to eat when you're hungry, and therapy is helping me so much I can't really believe it. Even with all the craziness.
>
>
Posted by Dinah on January 6, 2004, at 17:05:07
In reply to she said no so she passed the test, posted by crushedout on January 6, 2004, at 16:57:13
You're doing great, Crushed. :)
Posted by crushedout on January 6, 2004, at 17:13:14
In reply to Re: she said no so she passed the test » crushedout, posted by Dinah on January 6, 2004, at 17:05:07
Posted by DaisyM on January 6, 2004, at 19:21:16
In reply to she said no so she passed the test, posted by crushedout on January 6, 2004, at 16:57:13
I'm glad you are OK with the No. I have to say though, in reading your posts, that the back and forth stuff *isn't* really holding the boundaries because they keep shifting. I realize that I am slow to trust and to ask for help but, if I had even a hint that I was making it difficult for my Therapist, I would shut down. And have.
That said, it sounds like you are aware of what you are doing and feel therapy is helping. This is really great. And, maybe she just got full between the time she said she could and the time you called back.
Hang in there. I know you are going through a rough time.
Posted by crushedout on January 6, 2004, at 20:51:15
In reply to Re: she said no so she passed the test » crushedout, posted by DaisyM on January 6, 2004, at 19:21:16
Actually, you make an excellent point, Daisy. I hadn't thought of that.In her defense, though, she said in the first conversation that it would be difficult for her to see me tomorrow but that if I "needed" to see her, she could make it happen, and when I called her back, I said "I would really like to," but that it could also wait and I didn't want to put her out. So, I intentionally gave her an out. Which makes it less shifty, right?
I guess the part that's not so great is the "it's difficult but if you need me I'll make it happen." She should either be available or not. Hm? I dunno. I'm confused. What's she doing to me? What's going on here?
> I'm glad you are OK with the No. I have to say though, in reading your posts, that the back and forth stuff *isn't* really holding the boundaries because they keep shifting. I realize that I am slow to trust and to ask for help but, if I had even a hint that I was making it difficult for my Therapist, I would shut down. And have.
>
> That said, it sounds like you are aware of what you are doing and feel therapy is helping. This is really great. And, maybe she just got full between the time she said she could and the time you called back.
>
> Hang in there. I know you are going through a rough time.
Posted by crushedout on January 6, 2004, at 20:54:45
In reply to Re: she said no so she passed the test » crushedout, posted by DaisyM on January 6, 2004, at 19:21:16
P.S. Her schedule didn't change. It was just our conversations and thinking about it that led her to decide not to see me (till Thursday, mind you).
One other addendum: she said that if she saw me tomorrow, she'd feel rushed, and she didn't want to address these issues in that context, but wanted to do it calmly when she felt she had more time.
I keep going back and forth on whether she's really screwed up or just doing the best she can and is actually pretty straightforward.
> I'm glad you are OK with the No. I have to say though, in reading your posts, that the back and forth stuff *isn't* really holding the boundaries because they keep shifting. I realize that I am slow to trust and to ask for help but, if I had even a hint that I was making it difficult for my Therapist, I would shut down. And have.
>
> That said, it sounds like you are aware of what you are doing and feel therapy is helping. This is really great. And, maybe she just got full between the time she said she could and the time you called back.
>
> Hang in there. I know you are going through a rough time.
Posted by DaisyM on January 6, 2004, at 23:16:38
In reply to Re: she said no so she passed the test » DaisyM, posted by crushedout on January 6, 2004, at 20:54:45
<<<One other addendum: she said that if she saw me tomorrow, she'd feel rushed, and she didn't want to address these issues in that context, but wanted to do it calmly when she felt she had more time.
>>>I don't really get that either. Rushed? Haven't you had a conversation, or 2 about what happened? I think if she needs space, she should just say that. It sounds like she is trying really hard to get herself back on the professional side of line. And you are right, you did give her the out, so maybe she saw it as a test. I guess it is just going to be like walking on eggshells for awhile.
I admire how well you are handling this and how honest you are being with her and yourself. I know it isn't easy.
Take good care.
-D
Posted by crushedout on January 6, 2004, at 23:43:39
In reply to Re: she said no so she passed the test » crushedout, posted by DaisyM on January 6, 2004, at 23:16:38
> >>>I don't really get that either. Rushed? Haven't you had a conversation, or 2 about what happened?
Yeah, now I'm not so sure I get it, either, except maybe she meant she'd have to give up her lunch or rush between sessions and that would make her feel harried. Or, maybe you're right and it's some kind of dance we're doing. I guess I should ask her on Thursday.
We had the one conversation, the day after she gave me the CD, in which she told me she had been confused herself, and that she had been enjoying my feelings for her. I loaned her "In Session" that day.
So, today, we ended up talking mostly about other stuff, but at one point, I saw the book on her shelf and I asked her if she'd read it. She said she'd read part of it and had a lot of thoughts she wanted to share with me but didn't want to flood me when I had other stuff I needed to talk about. She said in general, she thought we both needed to be more explicit about what was going on between us. That was all very intriguing but we went back to the topic we were discussing beforehand, and we never got back to that.
So now I'm really curious about her thoughts, which is a big part of why I wanted to schedule an extra session tomorrow, I guess. And that's the stuff we still have to talk about. I mean, she's told me she was enjoying my feelings for her, but that leaves a lot of open questions in my mind (such as, just how much was she enjoying them? does she have any feelings for me? has she talked to anyone about them? does she think she can deal with them, or are they going to interfere with our therapy? is there any risk she's going to suddenly terminate (because that would be good to know now) -- probably lots of other stuff. and I don't even know what *she* has in mind to talk about). And I expalined to her clearly in my phone message when I called her back that mainly I was worried we wouldn't have enough time before she went away to continue that conversation.
I wonder if she really just wanted space. I did feel like I was maybe being a little suffocating.
Thanks for your support, Daisy. Really, truly, it helps.
Posted by fallsfall on January 7, 2004, at 0:08:16
In reply to Re: she said no so she passed the test » DaisyM, posted by crushedout on January 6, 2004, at 23:43:39
Posted by DaisyM on January 7, 2004, at 14:02:49
In reply to Daisy, Did you see her on Tuesday? (nm), posted by fallsfall on January 7, 2004, at 0:08:16
Falls,
I did go and I'm glad I went, it was a really good conversation about "stuff" especially where this (therapy) is going. I did tell him I thought it was self indulgent and that I was becoming a pain in the a**! He laughed and said I wasn't even close but he wouldn't mind if I moved toward this because it meant I was putting myself first.
Here is the thing -- I'm not this sainted person who doesn't get what she wants and gives all of her time and energy to everyone else. Really. So talking about never getting my needs met makes me so uncomfortable. I have to keep telling myself that it is my need for support, and guidance that has been ignored and stuffed down and those are the needs we are talking about. We talked about the difference between choosing to be happy, vs. choosing to not be unhappy. He agrees that no one wants to be unhappy but he argues that there is a void which is neither...and ultimately most people long to be happy.
He also wants me to think about being more open to extra sessions right now. I can't tell whether he is worried that I'm about to come completely undone, or if we are in so deep that he wants to use the momentum. Or both. It is weird, I can feel myself pulling back from him, shutting down again. It isn't that I feel bad or angry nor is it that I feel really great. I'm not desperately dependent but I don't feel particularly able to cope either...it is almost as if I've gone kind of numb. Maybe it is because we are back and forth between past and present and since I've never (NEVER!) talked about the past like this before, it is scary and makes me want to pull back. I feel a little psychologically "thin" and somewhat fragile...I don't know how else to explain it. And I keep questioning what I want/need from this process. Most of the time I'm really clear about it - I want my joy back. But I'm fuzzy today, is it worth all this pain?
Yesterday He compared psychologists to midwives. We were talking about figuring out who you are and what you want and how therapy changes you. He said he was here to assist in birthing the new me. It wasn't trite the way he said it, maybe a little corny. But, as I thought about it, there are so many parallels...women in labor work hard, have to bare the pain and make choices about medications, what kind of support they need, etc. And there are stages to labor. The midwife supports and guides the process, is there in case of a crisis, and celebrates the birth at the end. There are more similarities but I like thinking about it this way. It appeals to my poetic side.
He was trying to remind me again that it was Ok to trust him. That he wouldn't fail me. That he planned to see "this" through with me and that "we" were in it together. And after all that, I simply said: "promise?" He did.
Sorry for such a long reply. I guess I'm just in a funky mood and wanted to think "out loud."
Posted by fallsfall on January 8, 2004, at 10:37:48
In reply to About Tuesday. (long) » fallsfall, posted by DaisyM on January 7, 2004, at 14:02:49
Daisy,
I'm really glad you went. He sounds wonderful and it sounds like together you are a team. You are doing incredibly hard stuff right now - let him help without feeling guilty. I'm very impressed by you.
Posted by DaisyM on January 9, 2004, at 0:35:33
In reply to Re: About Tuesday. (long) » DaisyM, posted by fallsfall on January 8, 2004, at 10:37:48
I don't know how impressive I feel after today. I can't get the words out to explain what is going on in my head and even though he reassures me that silence is OK, I feel like I need to apologize for it.
We spent time today identifying which "issue" brings anxiety to different parts of my body -- do you find this to be true? I didn't realize before that one issue makes my hands shake and another gives me a stomach ache and another tightness in my chest and behind my knees.
If only I could make my body parts talk instead of hurting.
But thanks for the kind words anyway. How are things going for you? You've been kinda quiet...
Posted by fallsfall on January 10, 2004, at 13:04:29
In reply to Not so impressive » fallsfall, posted by DaisyM on January 9, 2004, at 0:35:33
Gee, that cool - if your hands shake then issue 1 is bothering you, if your stomach feels bad, then it is issue 2? What a good diagnostic.
Thanks for asking about me. I'm still trying to recover from Xmas, and ran full speed into a difficult issue that I'm still trying to get my arms around. I may ask to raise my Prozac when I see my pdoc on Tuesday (we reduced it 1 or 2 months ago). I'm eating lots of chocolate, rented some movies. Work went well today, except that I thought we closed at 12 - we really close at 1 (5 years ago we closed at 12 on Saturdays). I kicked a guy out an hour early. Then my co-worker mentioned that we had another hour. Duh. I wasn't really trying to leave early - I like it there, and feel better when I'm there. Dreams about being too depressed to take care of my daughter, and not being able to comfort myself. Many tears.
Posted by DaisyM on January 10, 2004, at 17:44:42
In reply to Re: Not so impressive » DaisyM, posted by fallsfall on January 10, 2004, at 13:04:29
I'm sorry things have been hard...are the tears in your dreams in your life too? I hope the chocolate and movies help, what did you rent?
I said it in another post but I think January is the month that we all come apart after holding it so tightly together for December. Or maybe seeing family brings it all up to the surface and our Therapist know this and want to pull it out...Are you still surprised by issues that come up? Or are they "new" about what is going on right now?
I'm curious, when you "run head long into" something, do you keep at it for the next few sessions? I'm thinking about letting the current issue we are working on float away for awhile, it is just too hard and painful. I'm actually floored by how hard it is, given what else is on my list. This is such a weird process...like connecting the dots blind with someone giving you oral directions. And not knowing what you are trying to draw in the first place.
Keep well. I think trying to close early is funny. He probably needed to go home and clean his house anyway. *smile*
-D
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