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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by crushedout on December 30, 2003, at 18:53:42
In reply to OK, what do you all think of this???, posted by crushedout on December 30, 2003, at 18:40:13
Perhaps I should add, although some of you may remember this from my previous posts, a little about my history with her and discussing transference. When I told her, several months ago, about my romantic feelings for her, she responded that she "found me very beautiful." I posted here about that and you all told me to ask her why she said that, because it didn't really seem to have any therapeutic value. I agreed and said I would follow up, but never did.At least twice since then she's suggested that we talk about "the sexuality between us" and I've balked, telling her I had other things I needed to talk about, but that we could get to that later. Of course, I never have the nerve to bring it up, even just to ask her what she means by the question. And she gets kind of fuzzy and evasive whenever I put her on the spot.
I'm sure many of you will have reactions to this that may seem to me to demonize her, but try not to, because I have really really strong positive feelings about her, and that will only make me defensive, and not able to take in your advice as readily. That said, I of course want honest input.
Posted by Karen_kay on December 30, 2003, at 19:14:37
In reply to a little background and follow-up, posted by crushedout on December 30, 2003, at 18:53:42
Ok, for starters, why wouldn't you want to know about "the sexuality between us?" I'd at least be curious. I'd take that as a good sign. I mean why avoid it? But, it is up to you. If my therapist made a comment like that, I'd take that as a sign to take my clothes off, but that's just me... Anyway.... This would be a great opportunity to bring that up again, if you're up to it...
As for the CD. Tell her you listened to it and found it to be enjoyable, except that it made you cry (And why did you cry??? Because you love her?? Because it was sweet???) I can only tell you what I'd do in that situation, but I'd drop dead from a heart attack if my therapist gave me a gift. But, if he gave me a CD with a song with lyrics like that I'd call him on it. I'd march into his office and be like "What is this crap? What's with the head games? Are you trying to help me or just trying to mess up my head even more? If you want to meet me for coffee (or something else :) just speak up and I'm there, but don't give me a CD with stupid lyrics like that and try to tell me I might look into it too much. That's just setting me up." It sounds to me like that's what she's doing. Sorry if you get defensive about it, but it sounds like she does have some sort of feelings and she's just setting you up "to look into it too much" so that she can rationalize it in her own head. That's just bad news. I'd at least talk to her about it. I'm not suggesting you have to get a new therapist, but you do need to talk to her.
Posted by crushedout on December 30, 2003, at 19:27:06
In reply to Re: a little background and follow-up » crushedout, posted by Karen_kay on December 30, 2003, at 19:14:37
of course i want to know about her sexual feelings toward me, if she has any. but she only suggested we talk about it. she didn't offer to do all the talking. and i'm scared to go there. i guess it's embarrassing, and geez, i'm really not sure why. i think the biggest reason is i'm scared to find out that she doesn't feel anything for me. i'm scared of rejection. or maybe finding out she feels something for me but we can never act on it and that's that. that might destroy me, too. even though of course i have to face that reality at some point, unless she's planning to actually sleep with me, which we all know would be disastrous for me, as much as i want it.i'm also not sure why the cd made me cry. i think i was touched. i felt like she exposed a part of herself to me. i wanted to see more. i wanted to just spend days with her listening to and talking about music, and other things, and getting to know each other. i wanted to fall in love with her. i guess. i don't know. i felt lonely. i felt even more convinced of my love for her. and the tragedy that i can never have what i want. maybe. i can't really be sure. i'm crying now.
yes, and because it was sweet. because i felt lucky. so many things.
i think you make excellent points, karen kay. i think i will (not in those words) ask her just such things tomorrow. what is she trying to do to me? how does she expect me not to "draw conclusions"? what conclusions is she talking about? how DOES she feel about me? aren't we getting close to that boundary she said it was her job to police? doesn't that concern her?
maybe i need to take a break from her, i really don't know. i'm crushed. just like my handle says.
Posted by EmmyS on December 30, 2003, at 19:42:40
In reply to Re: a little background and follow-up » Karen_kay, posted by crushedout on December 30, 2003, at 19:27:06
I think you said it best in your first post, "it seems she probably shouldn't have done this". Yes, it does seem inappropriate that she made you the CD. Even more so considering you are currently struggling with the therapeutic relationship.
Talking to her about the sexuality and all of the related tension you feel is a good thing - as long as your therapist can handle herself appropriately. BUT, I think the first chat must be about boundaries. See how that one goes. Then, if you feel safe, continue on with the next topic.
There are reasons, as you know why therapists lose their jobs for having relationships with clients - it seriously injures them emotionally. It takes advantage of their vulnerability. It's something therapists learn about in school. They are all aware of the power they have. However, they are human too, and have frailties, weakness, and egos.
Please take care of yourself! Emmy
Posted by Dinah on December 30, 2003, at 19:44:07
In reply to Re: a little background and follow-up » Karen_kay, posted by crushedout on December 30, 2003, at 19:27:06
I have to agree with Karen Kay. This needs discussing. The things you said in your last post sound just like what you need to say.
It sounds as if you are more aware of the boundaries and their value than she is.
There might be a reasonable explanation, but I think you need to find out what it is.
I'm sorry. :(
Posted by crushedout on December 30, 2003, at 19:50:57
In reply to Re: a little background and follow-up » crushedout, posted by Dinah on December 30, 2003, at 19:44:07
maybe i oughta bring my copy of "in session" with me and loan it to her if she hasn't read it yet.i'm actually really embarrassed to do that. i'm not sure if i'll have the courage.
i had assumed before that she must have read it, but now i have to wonder.
Posted by crushedout on December 30, 2003, at 20:46:14
In reply to Re: a little background and follow-up, posted by EmmyS on December 30, 2003, at 19:42:40
The problem is: I *do* feel safe. *I'm* not really worried about boundaries at all. Maybe I ought to be, but I'm not. I *want* her to cross boundaries. She's the one who's supposed to be worrying about boundaries. Which is what makes the CD so confusing for me.
But I take your point all the same, and I really appreciate everyone's support. This is much harder than I could have imagined. Just as, I bet, her crossing other, even more important boundaries (i.e., physical), would be much harder than I can now imagine. (Although I feel like the CD is upsetting for me because it's just a taste of what I want so badly: total intimacy with her. So maybe if she really wanted to go "all the way" with me, it wouldn't be so bad. As long as she didn't ever dump me, which of course is no guarantee. But love is always hard, right? Getting dumped always sucks. I dunno. I know I'm talkin' crazy right now.)
Posted by EmmyS on December 30, 2003, at 21:07:26
In reply to Re: a little background and follow-up » EmmyS, posted by crushedout on December 30, 2003, at 20:46:14
Well, I guess at least when you are being irrational, you are aware of it! That's the good news. The bad news is that your therapist has put you in this position. That should never have happened. She's got a lot of explaining to do.
Perhaps she is not healthy enough to be in that chair. My heart goes out to you. Pain sucks.
Posted by Joslynn on December 30, 2003, at 21:21:26
In reply to Re: a little background and follow-up » EmmyS, posted by crushedout on December 30, 2003, at 20:46:14
How confusing.
This may have been asked before, but can you get a consultation with someone else?
Sorry you are going through this, of course you would have all these feelings.
Posted by crushedout on December 30, 2003, at 21:28:54
In reply to Re: a little background and follow-up, posted by Joslynn on December 30, 2003, at 21:21:26
Someone did make that excellent suggestion to me already (offline) but I'm afraid I'm not up for it. I guess it seems too ambitious (I have no money and my T is letting me owe her, mainly; and, finding a good T is soooo hard!). Also, it feels sort of like a betrayal to my T. I know, I shouldn't be concerned about that (the betrayal piece), but it's just how I feel. I'm being honest. But I will certainly consider it further. I'm also considering just taking a break from her for a couple weeks. Maybe that would give me a little more perspective.
Thank you so much for your support. It really helps.
Posted by dragonfly25 on December 30, 2003, at 21:51:38
In reply to OK, what do you all think of this???, posted by crushedout on December 30, 2003, at 18:40:13
sounds very unethical crushedout...doesn't sound good at all. my only advice to you is to ask yourself if you want to get better? or if you want to deal with a therapist with 'issues'? this is not helpful to you. why should you be stressing about what she feels for you b/c of a cd she gave you. that is why therapists are not to give gifts etc. this can't be helpful to your own situation. good luck with it
dragonfly
Posted by Dinah on December 30, 2003, at 23:17:56
In reply to consultation idea » Joslynn, posted by crushedout on December 30, 2003, at 21:28:54
I think you should think a couple of times again about that consultation. Extending credit on sessions is actually another red flag, taken in conjunction with the other red flags.
I am loath to interfere with someone's therapeutic relationship, but perhaps a professional with some objectivity and the full facts of the situation can give a good idea of how much you need to be concerned.
Again, I'm sorry Crushed. This is a painful situation, no matter how it plays out. :(
Posted by Elle2021 on December 30, 2003, at 23:29:48
In reply to OK, what do you all think of this???, posted by crushedout on December 30, 2003, at 18:40:13
Maybe you should just take the CD she gave you as a gift from a caring friend. Perhaps, she was touched that you thought enough of her to make something for her, so she wanted to return the gesture. Also, I have read that some therapists encourage transference as a means of getting further in solving one's problems. Could she be doing that? I definitely think you should tell her about the crush/romantic feelings you have for her, it needs to be cleared up, from my end, it seems like it might be hindering your progress.
Elle
Posted by crushedout on December 30, 2003, at 23:34:52
In reply to Re: OK, what do you all think of this??? » crushedout, posted by Elle2021 on December 30, 2003, at 23:29:48
elle,that's originally how i thought of it. and still do, to a great degree. i think that that is probably how she feels about me. like a caring friend. but i'm not sure she's being a very wise therapist in doing that, because she already knows about my feelings for her, and this is so confusing for me. so, at the very least, we need to talk about that, and hopefully she'll learn from the experience. and maybe i'll get some clarity on her feelings for me so that i can get on with my therapy, and my life.
this was helpful, elle, to think about it like this. thank you.
all of this posting is really helping me sort out what i need to say and do and understand to move on.
Posted by crushedout on December 30, 2003, at 23:39:46
In reply to Re: OK, what do you all think of this??? » crushedout, posted by Elle2021 on December 30, 2003, at 23:29:48
p.s. if she's encouraging my transference, it's hard for me to imagine what therapeutic reason she'd be doing it for. i mean, if she were, then she should have been more aggressive about making us discuss it more, and being clearer about her feelings for me (i.e., that she doesn't feel the same way about me that i do about her -- assuming that's the case --, rather than leaving it so vague like this). because i don't really see where it's getting us. i agree that it needs to be discussed more thoroughly. we've been dancing around it for months now.
Posted by dragonfly25 on December 30, 2003, at 23:43:50
In reply to Re: OK, what do you all think of this??? » crushedout, posted by Elle2021 on December 30, 2003, at 23:29:48
Also, I have read that some therapists encourage transference as a means of getting further in solving one's problems.
hi elle,
i keeping reading about transference, what is it? thx
Posted by crushedout on December 30, 2003, at 23:53:40
In reply to Re: consultation idea » crushedout, posted by Dinah on December 30, 2003, at 23:17:56
thank you, dinah. i guess i'll see how things go tomorrow. i'll let you guys know what happens (and probably need more support and advice!). i hope it goes well.
Posted by Medusa on December 31, 2003, at 4:26:20
In reply to OK, what do you all think of this???, posted by crushedout on December 30, 2003, at 18:40:13
Hi Crushed,
Many therapists have supervisors - therapists who supervise their cases and consult with them on sticky points. Is your therapist under supervision?
I'd ask her about this - 1) does she have a supervisor, 2) if so, has she discussed your case with said supervisor, 3) if so, what has supervisor suggested?
I wouldn't see a therapist who isn't in supervision. (Actually, now I won't see any therapist without official real-time observation AND videotaping of the session, but that's my stuff.)
Your therapist is really jerking you around. I'm sorry you're going through this.
Posted by henrietta on December 31, 2003, at 9:17:15
In reply to OK, what do you all think of this???, posted by crushedout on December 30, 2003, at 18:40:13
Dear Crushed: I've been reading your posts about your therapist for quite a while, and have wanted to respond but wasn't registered till recently. I really do feel that your T's behavior is not therapeutic (!). Dinah's right, the "sessions on credit" is another major red flag, especially added to the confusing signals she's sending in other areas. I think it's vitally important for you to arrange a consultation with another therapist and explain completely and honestly the
confusion you are experiencing in therapy. Please don't let money be an obstacle to this---it's just too important! Your well-being is too important! If you find you cannot bring yourself to speak to another therapist, then I think you really must bring this all out into the open with your T, discuss it fully. For one thing, bringing it out in the open will demystify it considerably, and your T's responses will give you a better sense of where she's coming from---
if she turns out to be as confused as you are by
your relationship, then I definitely think you should consider finding another therapist, as painful and as difficult as that may be. Please take care of yourself.
henrietta
Posted by crushedout on December 31, 2003, at 9:25:56
In reply to Re: OK, what do you all think of this???, posted by henrietta on December 31, 2003, at 9:17:15
I should just clarify the circumstances around the sessions on credit: she DID tell me at one point that she trusts me and that i can owe her money for as long as i need to. but right now, the reason i can't pay her is that my insurance company owes me thousands of dollars and they're giving me the runaround, holding on to my money. so, i'll be able to pay her as soon as those xxxxers get their xxxx together. (they make me sooooo mad.)
thus, i really don't think her letting me owe her money is crossing any lines, but let me know if you think otherwise, given these circumstances.
Posted by Dinah on December 31, 2003, at 10:12:55
In reply to sessions on credit, posted by crushedout on December 31, 2003, at 9:25:56
I must admit that I don't know the theory behind it. I've just read lists of questions that therapists should ask themselves if they fear they're having problems with boundaries and that's one of them. So I don't really know.
Posted by henrietta on December 31, 2003, at 10:16:45
In reply to sessions on credit, posted by crushedout on December 31, 2003, at 9:25:56
That makes me feel a bit less concerned, yes. But it occurred to me that it might be a good idea to offer to pay her even a token amount ($10.00 per session?)until the insurance mess is cleared up. This sounds crazy, maybe, but I wonder if the lack of any financial element in your interaction could be contributing to what appears to be HER confusion about the nature of your relationship ---maybe she's feeling, somewhere in there, that it's more of a friendship than a professional relationship. The money exchange may be mostly symbolic, but I think it's an important symbol. That said, however, the other circumstances still trouble me...
hen
Posted by Speaker on December 31, 2003, at 14:06:23
In reply to Re: sessions on credit » crushedout, posted by Dinah on December 31, 2003, at 10:12:55
Dinah,
You are so full of information and I appreciate your input so much. You mentioned a list of questions you have read that T's should ask themselves. Do you recall where you read that list?
Posted by crushedout on December 31, 2003, at 14:50:32
In reply to Re: sessions on credit » Dinah, posted by Speaker on December 31, 2003, at 14:06:23
Well, I saw her today. I was really scared. When I arrived, she said I seemed anxious. She said that she worried all yesterday after I left that she had overwhelmed me. I said, "You did." She said, "I crossed your boundary, didn't I?" and I agreed.I told her that I loved the CD but that it made me very, very sad. I said it was tantalizing and confusing for me. I explained how it just made me want more, that I wanted to be her lover, and I couldn't be.
I asked her why she did that. She said that she f'ed up, basically. That she just felt compelled to do it, to have a connection with me, but that it wasn't in my interests and it was a huge mistake. She apologized sincerely.
I said in a way that this was probably for the best because it was making me confront the reality that we can't be together, which is something I've been avoiding for a long time. She said, yes, she thought so, too, although she should have done it a better way. She said she'd been avoiding confronting that reality also. I asked her why. She said because she was confused, too. Because she liked feeling loved by me, and she didn't want to let go of it. She was enjoying it. So, we're going to try to move past it now, I guess. I hope I can. It's really hard for me to accept.
I guess, one good thing is that when she came out to get me from the waiting room, my first thought was that she looked stupid (I don't like her new hair-do), and that was kind of a relief for me. I mean, I'm still attracted to her, I guess, but maybe the bubble is starting to burst. Maybe someday I'll really realize that she's not all I've cracked her up to be. She's not really the woman for me. I hope it happens soon, because this is really, really painful.
We're cutting back on sessions (to twice a week from three times! I know, sounds nuts) and I told her I'm thinking about taking a break altogether, actually. To get some feeling of control back. I also lent her my copy of "In Session." She had never even heard of it. I was surprised. She said, "Is there anything in particular you think I'll get out of it?" and I said, in general, I thought she would find it very helpful, but that I particularly thought the part about the power dynamic and how little things can matter a lot to the client would be relevant. At least she really seemed to realize she had a lot to learn.
I really am crazy about her, as a therapist as well as a love object, and I think she's doing a great job. She just made a huge mistake here, and I think she learned her lesson. And we're going to move forward. She promised me that something good would come out of this. I have a hard time imagining what that will be, but I'm sure that it's true.
Thanks to all of you for your support through this crisis. I think I'm going to fall apart now.
:(
Posted by fallsfall on December 31, 2003, at 16:01:47
In reply to I saw her today, posted by crushedout on December 31, 2003, at 14:50:32
You did really well today. And so did she.
Therapist can make mistakes - we all can. But if we talk about them openly then the relationship can get back on track.
Good luck!
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