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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 28. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Dinah on December 6, 2002, at 19:07:10
I have emotionally divorced just about everyone in my life, and I suspect I'm about to do it to one of the few remaining people I am attached to, my therapist.
The first time was really sudden. My mother and I were yelling at each other and suddenly I looked at her and she wasn't my mother any more. She was just an acquaintance who looked ridiculous with her red distorted face and wild eyes. She never became my mother again.
The other times were more gradual and I could feel it happening incrementally. I tried to stop it each time, but was unable to do so. It does make for an easier life in some ways, and in every single case the relationship with the person I emotionally divorced became smoother, had less conflicts, and was more pleasant. But overall, it is a life of emotional impoverishment.
Has anyone else experienced this, and found a way to stop the process? I recognize that it is a self protective measure, but I don't know how to interrupt it.
Posted by Tabitha on December 7, 2002, at 0:49:45
In reply to Emotional divorce, posted by Dinah on December 6, 2002, at 19:07:10
Dinah, What has happened with your therapist? I apologize if I've missed posts about this, but I thought you had a pretty good relationship with him.
I'm probably not the one to give advice on this. I don't quite get the concept of appropriate emotional distance myself. I think I tend to put up walls, because otherwise, I take on others' problems. My therapist has tried to explain the appropriate attitude to me on being open but not too permeable, but I don't get it yet.
Have you given yourself permission to "divorce" people though? I firmly believe there are no obligatory relationships, even to family members.
Posted by Dinah on December 7, 2002, at 8:06:57
In reply to Re: Emotional divorce, posted by Tabitha on December 7, 2002, at 0:49:45
Hi Tabitha,
Nothing in particular has happened, other than a renewed fear of loss.
Sometimes I've given myself permission to emotionally divorce, and maintain a pleasant relationship, with people who are rather destructive.
Other times, I've fought it all the way, because my life would have been richer had I maintained the emotional part of the relationship. A life full of acquaintances is not what I really wish for.
My therapists models the open but not too permeable attitude, but since it's basically fake and paid for, and a professional technique, I haven't even tried to live it.
Thanks Tabitha,
Dinah
Posted by rayww on December 7, 2002, at 8:39:20
In reply to Emotional divorce, posted by Dinah on December 6, 2002, at 19:07:10
Is emotional divorce by chance the same as emotional suicide where you try to defame yourself by doing things to be sure all people divorce you? And the relationships that mean the most to you end up receiving the least attention?
Posted by freudiangarterbelt on December 7, 2002, at 9:16:35
In reply to Emotional divorce, posted by Dinah on December 6, 2002, at 19:07:10
Emotional divorce is such a silly term. You are being sucked into the objective world-- you have detached yourself from situations and are observing them as if you have opinions, no emotional response. You have , in effect, become a robot.
Posted by mair on December 7, 2002, at 9:28:17
In reply to Re: Emotional divorce » Tabitha, posted by Dinah on December 7, 2002, at 8:06:57
Dinah
You should think of it as an emotional separation and not an emotional divorce which has the sound of more permanence. I think I've been doing this for most of my life although I think of it as emotional withdrawal. I can withdraw emotionally without withdrawing physically so those around me are pretty unaware that anything is different. It's exhausting but obviously serves a purpose.
A therapist I used to see once observed that he could feel it happening. I've been trying to make a more studied effort not to let this happen with my current therapist although it does and is responsible, I think, for feelings of detachment I have. Sometimes my effort may just be maintaining eye contact with her which can be difficult particularly when we're dealing with issues that seem more threatening.
Mair
Posted by Dinah on December 7, 2002, at 11:15:56
In reply to Re: Emotional divorce, posted by rayww on December 7, 2002, at 8:39:20
No, not at all, Ray. My relationships with those I emotionally divorce get better, actually. I behave as I should. And since they can no longer hurt me, there are very few fights. Anger usually springs up somewhere from hurt, so there is very little anger. If you ask those whom I emotionally divorce, they'd say that everything was fine, better than before even.
Posted by Dinah on December 7, 2002, at 11:17:58
In reply to Re: Emotional separation » Dinah, posted by mair on December 7, 2002, at 9:28:17
I do that very well too, Mair. And my therapist usually calls me on it. This is a more permanent thing that relates to certain people rather than situations.
I guess I am just an odd duck in the ability to do this. And like so many of my abilities, I just wish I could get it under my control. :) It's a handy thing sometimes.
Dinah
Posted by Dinah on December 7, 2002, at 11:22:46
In reply to Re: Emotional divorce, posted by freudiangarterbelt on December 7, 2002, at 9:16:35
Well, I think it's an extremely accurate term, not silly at all. I guess if you haven't experienced it, you wouldn't understand.
It certainly has no effect on my opinions about anything, situation or otherwise. I continue to be quite opinionated.
Perhaps I'm just not explaining myself well.
Posted by medlib on December 7, 2002, at 12:18:33
In reply to Re: Emotional divorce, posted by freudiangarterbelt on December 7, 2002, at 9:16:35
> You have , in effect, become a robot.
Please do post anything which could cause others to feel hurt or put down.
Full guidelines re civility can be found at
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
Further posts regarding this request should be posted at PB Administration
medlib (filling in for Dr. Bob)
Posted by freudiangarterbelt on December 7, 2002, at 17:40:54
In reply to Emotional divorce, posted by Dinah on December 6, 2002, at 19:07:10
"......It does make for an easier life in some ways, and in every single case the relationship with the person I emotionally divorced became smoother, had less conflicts, and was more pleasant. But overall, it is a life of emotional impoverishment"
Are you saying the passion has gone out of your life? If difficult relationships have become more pleasant what exactly is missing?
Posted by freudiangarterbelt on December 7, 2002, at 21:55:50
In reply to Emotional divorce, posted by Dinah on December 6, 2002, at 19:07:10
"The other times were more gradual and I could feel it happening incrementally. I tried to stop it each time, but was unable to do so."
I think the fact that you are unable to switch your perception back to a "normal" state would be rather frightening. I think you may find this website interesting
Posted by Pfinstegg on December 7, 2002, at 22:25:47
In reply to Re: Emotional divorce, posted by freudiangarterbelt on December 7, 2002, at 17:40:54
I have been through exactly what you are describing in therapy- becoming sort of cold and detached, and just wanting to get out of there.
From what I remember, you seemed to have had a good working relationship with this therapist for several years, although I think you posted about a month ago that there were some things which were hard to talk to him about. Do you have a sense of what has brought you to wanting to "divorce" him? I'm just hazarding a guess here, but you may have reached the point in therapy where all of the original feelings towards your parents- the longing, rage, disappointment and sense of irreparable loss- are beginning to be a real part of the relationship you have with the therapist. Up until now, you may have had just one way to cope- to begin detaching and putting enough distance between you and the significant other person that these feelings subside to the manageable point.
Why not accept that you are going to feel cold and detached, and like running as fast as you can, as you begin trying to deal with these intensely painful feelings? Staying in therapy gives you a real chance to grow and become the kind of person who doesn't have to do any "divorcing" unless you decide to for healthy reasons- you'd be deciding, not have it just happen to you.
I'd like to second the thought of another recent poster- I've forgotten who- as I have also felt recently that you are growing in a way that I have been noticing and admiring. I don't think I would be able to put it in more exact words- but, are we both wrong??
Pfinstegg
Posted by Pfinstegg on December 8, 2002, at 0:42:45
In reply to Emotional divorce, posted by Dinah on December 6, 2002, at 19:07:10
Hi Dinah- I looked up your old post- it was October 24th, and you were worried then that if anger surfaced in your relationship with your therapist that you would react, even though you tried your best not to, by detaching from him and ending the relationship. Is this happening now?
Can you see any way to avoid doing "the same old same old"? Are you seeing him at the right frequency for you? Sometimes if the therapy is too often or too intensive, it's just too hard to deal with- instead of taking the tiny steps- one or two forward and at least one back- which are all any of us is able to do, we can begin getting swept along on a tidal wave of feelings that we can't control or even understand. On the other hand, if you are not going often enough. it can be difficult to maintain the strength of your bond to him. Some people take "holidays" from therapy; sometimes when you do that and return, things have become a bit different inside, and you can take a few more of the little steps.
A final thought: you may never have had the experience of getting really angry at someone important, and having them not react with rage, or retaliate in some way. Whatever has happened in the past, you may feel that the anger is just going to annihilate all the loving feelings- and every important relationship- you have, or will have- that you will always react by becoming detached and emotionless. A big part of therapy,(I know you know this so well- I'm just reminding), is to take enough of a chance with your anger to give yourself an opportunity to learn how not to demolish a whole relationship because of it. And, remember, you have someone with you who understands you and the difficulty anger presents for you, and whose purpose is to help you learn to deal with it in a new way - your therapist. Before, there probably wasn't ever anyone who knew how to help.
Pfinstegg
Posted by Dinah on December 8, 2002, at 9:44:42
In reply to Re: Emotional divorce- Dinah, posted by Pfinstegg on December 8, 2002, at 0:42:45
Was it that recently that I was afraid of getting angry with him? Now I'm afraid I won't care enough to get angry with him. :) But it hasn't happened yet, and I'm going to fight not to let it happen.
I think what happened was the scare at the beginning of November about whether he would be able to continue therapy. It really threw me into shock, physically almost, or into a severe dissociative episode. I'm not sure which. After that, and partly from that fear, I decided to try Risperdal at my pdoc's suggestion (as an add on for cyclothymia in an attempt to stabilize my moods). While I was only on it for a week or two, it totally cut me off from my emotions. When I came off it, I knew something was wrong but I only just figured out that this was it. Apparently the threat (which didn't materialze yet at least) of losing him made me fearful and that fear triggered this process.
So it's my abandonment fears, not my fears of anger that are at the root of this, I suspect. I hope he's competent enough to help me deal with this without losing my attachment to him in the process. Or even better, if he's competent enough to help me rebuild the attachment, perhaps I can rebuild some other attachments in my life. (P.S. You're right about the other "divorces". They all generally resulted from anger issues.)
Thanks,
Dinah
Posted by Dinah on December 8, 2002, at 9:49:09
In reply to Re: Emotional divorce, posted by freudiangarterbelt on December 7, 2002, at 21:55:50
If I understood the article correctly, I think it does accurately reflect the phenomenon. The person I am perceiving remains the same, but the overlay of my feelings, connections, and accumulated emotional experience is removed, leaving me with an intellectual understanding of that person's role in my life, but without the emotional filter that usually comes along with it. Have I understood correctly?
It's not passion exactly that's missing. I don't know what it it. It's whatever in a relationship that allows you to be hurt by it. I don't know how to describe the positive side of that.
Posted by Pfinstegg on December 9, 2002, at 0:37:08
In reply to Re: Emotional divorce » Pfinstegg, posted by Dinah on December 8, 2002, at 9:44:42
I forgot about the posts in early November about the possibility of your therapist moving away. And, looking at them again made me realize that you have terrific insight into exactly what happens to you in response to what your therapist feels, thinks and does. I feel kind of stupid to have given advice to you! Still, I'm really glad that you post your thoughts and feelings about all the complicated aspects of therapy here in such an open and
articulate way. It's a help.Pfinstegg
Posted by Dinah on December 9, 2002, at 7:49:04
In reply to Re: Emotional divorce-Dinah, posted by Pfinstegg on December 9, 2002, at 0:37:08
Oh, please don't stop giving me advice, Pfinistegg. First of all, your advice is always extremely good, and secondly discussing things here on PPB is one way I clarify things. I start out confused, but by discussing things, I use my feelings to various posts to help me sort things out. Because whatever I think, it's probably only true if there is an emotional response (in these matters, of course), if that makes sense.
Thanks,
Dinah
Posted by Eddie Sylvano on December 9, 2002, at 10:15:12
In reply to Emotional divorce, posted by Dinah on December 6, 2002, at 19:07:10
> Has anyone else experienced this, and found a way to stop the process? I recognize that it is a self protective measure, but I don't know how to interrupt it.
-------------------------Once again, I understand completely. Almost like was mentioned previously, I really do feel like a robot sometimes. I don't feel the types of enjoyment or attachment I should to members of my family. I don't have a strong desire to make or maintain friends. I'm just here.
It occured to me last night that I spend almost all my time thinking about myself... my thoughts on things, my past and future, my potential feelings, and I'm pretty much on autopilot when it comes to how I operate in any environment. I don't observe the world around me, listen to people with interest, or appreciate my sensory world at any given point. It's as if I reached some stage many years ago of living in my immediate surroundings and then switched over to ruminating about myself. In doing so, I'm pretty much living in the past, because I don't give full attention and appreciation to the things that happen to me nowadays. I'm elsewhere. I don't know if the self-ruminating is a symptom of a problem or the problem itself, though. Can I regain feelings and drive by forcing myself to be more immediate and sensory? How would I even do that? This whole response is even an example of what I'm talking about. Still, it's worth a shot, I guess.
Posted by Pfinstegg on December 9, 2002, at 13:19:59
In reply to Re: Emotional divorce » Pfinstegg, posted by Dinah on December 9, 2002, at 7:49:04
Oh, good, Dinah. I 'm afraid my style of relating tends to be to try to always come up with answers to complex questions which don't really have any neat answers, but, beneath that, what really means a lot to me is to make emotional connections to people like you on the boards.
I am amazed at the degree of understanding and support I have found from posters here- you among them. Not to mention the sheer amount of up-to-date knowledge. I know I would never have found out about TMS for depression with DST non-suppression if it were not for the posts here. To my present psychiatrist, TMS was something which two patients of colleagues had had with good results, but something she knew very little about, and did not feel informed enough to recommend. I got enough information from this board, plus Medline, etc., to recommend myself for it. Even if I don't turn into a complete suppressor again, even becoming a partial suppressor would be a big gain.
I keep looking for articles about the whole topic of depression and HPA axis dysregulation, and found such an interesting one from Tokyo recently. It was about a 52-year old woman who had been bipolar for 20 years. With psychotherapy plus treatment with carbemazapine, she got a full remission. What fascinated me was that they continued to follow her thyroid and cortisol status for two years after remission, and found that her thyroid and adrenal glands slowly reverted to complete normality. I have not yet found any article where treatment is combined with long-term endocrine follow-up in this country (US), but it seems like such a reasonable thing to do. I have decided to insist on TSH, T3, T4, DST suppression and 24-hour cortisol tests on a regular basis as a part of my treatment.I thought, initially, that my insurance would not pay for all of this, but it actually has, so far. On the other hand, TMS, not being FDA-approved, won't be covered by insurance. Right now, TMS studies at Harvard, Emory and Pennsylvania are not taking new patients. A study at Chicago involves being willing to be part of either the ECT or TMS arm of the study, and an active study at the University of Washington requires that people be right-handed. So, this left-handed person found that there are two well-trained groups of psychiatrists offering TMS privately in the US. I chose the one in Atlanta, as the doctors there have been trained at Emory and the University of South Carolina- two of the centers for TMS studies. I'm (more or less) good to go on Dec. 30! Wish me luck!
Pfinstegg
Posted by Pfinstegg on December 9, 2002, at 15:16:39
In reply to Re: Emotional divorce- Dinah, posted by Pfinstegg on December 9, 2002, at 13:19:59
Oh, while I'm at it, if anyone is reading these posts for information about where you can get TMS- there is also a study at NIH comparing the effectiveness of low and high frequencies. From the little I can find out, the lower frequencies are probably less effective; counting the placebo group, that meant only a 1/3rd chance of being given the high frequency TMS at NIH. In Atlanta, the private group I will be going to has been giving high frequency TMS for two years; the other private group has been giving the same thing for a year and a half just outside of Chicago.
Pfinstegg
Posted by Dinah on December 9, 2002, at 15:57:24
In reply to Re: Emotional divorce- Dinah, posted by Pfinstegg on December 9, 2002, at 13:19:59
Posted by Dinah on December 9, 2002, at 21:44:50
In reply to Re: Emotional divorce » Dinah, posted by Eddie Sylvano on December 9, 2002, at 10:15:12
It certainly can't hurt. I do a fair amount of as-if'ing. Unfortunately I find that how well it works really depends on my mood. Ironic in a way. When I'm depressed I have to act as-if about things like Christmas.
I think the emotional divorce thing may be part of my dissociative skills though. Those skills are a funny thing. I'm more aware of them now, and I even practice them sometimes. As I get better and better at it, I use it more and more frequently and I use other coping mechanisms less and less frequently. I know that in the long run it's not good for me to do this, but I'm just not willing to give up the short term relief.
So I guess I'm not going to be able to overcome this problem in therapy as long as I keep leaning on it so heavily. If I'm not ready to give it up, I'm probably not going to. So I probably should stop complaining about the bad parts of it.
Posted by Dinah on December 15, 2002, at 12:35:35
In reply to Emotional divorce, posted by Dinah on December 6, 2002, at 19:07:10
I think this time I might be able to avert this process. It makes a big difference if you can talk with someone, and they understand. I've warned people in the past, and begged them to help me stop it, but I guess they never understood. I wonder if they ever wondered why I stopped talking about it... This time the person understands and is talking about it in a way that is helpful to me. Maybe I can even learn how to undo it with others.
Posted by Pfinstegg on December 16, 2002, at 1:23:27
In reply to Re: Emotional divorce - update, posted by Dinah on December 15, 2002, at 12:35:35
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