![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 18 to 42 of 98. Go back in thread:
Posted by Sigismund on March 29, 2010, at 22:05:47
In reply to Lou's request to members-yurpshinz, posted by Lou Pilder on March 29, 2010, at 21:16:59
>This thread could bring out what that separation is, for there it has been revealed to me that there is a Great Deception to mankind.
Only one?
Posted by Sigismund on March 29, 2010, at 22:08:35
In reply to Lou's request to members-yurpshinz, posted by Lou Pilder on March 29, 2010, at 21:16:59
>"Your (redacted by respondent) have separated you from your God."
What's been redacted by the respondent?
Your sins?
Intake of these wonderful pharmaceuticals we have been blessed with?
Posted by Sigismund on March 29, 2010, at 22:10:44
In reply to Re: Lou's request to members-yurpshinz, posted by Sigismund on March 29, 2010, at 22:08:35
>(redacted by respondent)
How about 'membership of this species'.
Posted by SLS on March 31, 2010, at 5:39:53
In reply to Lou's reply-altrmyn? » SLS, posted by Lou Pilder on March 29, 2010, at 9:37:42
> A. Where is there a record in that Bibile that says that Noah had daughters?
You are quite right. My mistake. I confused Noah with another biblical personage.
- Scott
Posted by Lou Pilder on March 31, 2010, at 19:12:14
In reply to Re: Lou's request to members-yurpshinz, posted by Sigismund on March 29, 2010, at 22:10:44
> >(redacted by respondent)
>
> How about 'membership of this species'.Sigusmund,
In what you wrote above, there is an important aspect to it. You see, your statement is all-inclusive, for all of us are members of the same species as you have indicated.
That brings into considertion as to if all are separated from the God here in question or not. If so, then to passover the Great Gulf could have some way that is available to all that want to do so. The questions then could become, "What is the Way?" "Is it possible for man by himself to find the Way?" "Will taking (redacted by respondent) be the Way?"
My friends, as I stood at the edge of the Great Gulf, the Rider was there and I asked what I could do to passover the Great Gulf. And He said to me, "Seek first the Kingdom of God and His rightiousness, and then the Way, the Truth, and the Life will be revealed to you."
Lou
Posted by Sigismund on March 31, 2010, at 20:22:00
In reply to Lou's reply-wheyptewthliegph » Sigismund, posted by Lou Pilder on March 31, 2010, at 19:12:14
>My friends, as I stood at the edge of the Great Gulf, the Rider was there and I asked what I could do to passover the Great Gulf. And He said to me, "Seek first the Kingdom of God and His rightiousness, and then the Way, the Truth, and the Life will be revealed to you."
Great to be able to get some directions.
See what you think of this.....
Posted by Buckeye Fan on April 2, 2010, at 11:43:33
In reply to Re: Lou's reply-wheyptewthliegph » Lou Pilder, posted by Sigismund on March 31, 2010, at 20:22:00
It never ceases to amaze me at how the discussion of Jesus Christ, God's Word the Holy Bible, and The Holy Spirit...will always be taken off topic to all kinds of other ideas.
Not speaking just of this thread, which I realize was not limited to discussion of the above mentioned truths....but I hope that in the spirit of celebrating Christ's victory over death , hell and the grave with Easter this weekend...we can see Him as the one person to have ever performed the documented miracles He did ( raising the dead, healing the blind, deaf and lame...calming the weather with His commands) ....and then rise from the grave on the third day.He truley proved He was The Son Of God...and provided The Way for our eternal salvation, and forgivness of our sins.
BF
Posted by Buckeye Fan on April 2, 2010, at 11:50:07
In reply to Lou's request-nohoudder » Buckeye Fan, posted by Lou Pilder on March 27, 2010, at 10:20:49
Hi Lou...you asked...
BF,
You wrote,[...I have a relationship with my Maker...]. If that Maker, as the God that you give service and worship to, is the God that the Christian Bible refers to,
A. Does that Bible state that those that use mind-altering drugs will be cast into the Lake of Fire?
B. redacted by respondent
Lou
The answer is no.The ONLY reason given in God's Word that has or will ever cause someone to miss out on God's forgivness and Eternal life....is to reject the gift of His Son Jesus as Lord and Savior.
This matter is so personal, no one can ever make that determination on this side of eternityabout another human being.
None of us have the ability..nor the Biblical mandate to make such a judgement.We can only lay claim to the truth of God's Word
and the reality of the Holy Spirit coming to live in us as a result of our salvation.God is love...and will receive ALL who come to Him in faith.
BF
Posted by Lou Pilder on April 2, 2010, at 16:44:23
In reply to Re: Lou's request-nohoudder, posted by Buckeye Fan on April 2, 2010, at 11:50:07
> Hi Lou...you asked...
>
> BF,
> You wrote,[...I have a relationship with my Maker...]. If that Maker, as the God that you give service and worship to, is the God that the Christian Bible refers to,
> A. Does that Bible state that those that use mind-altering drugs will be cast into the Lake of Fire?
> B. redacted by respondent
> Lou
>
>
> The answer is no.
>
> The ONLY reason given in God's Word that has or will ever cause someone to miss out on God's forgivness and Eternal life....is to reject the gift of His Son Jesus as Lord and Savior.
>
> This matter is so personal, no one can ever make that determination on this side of eternityabout another human being.
> None of us have the ability..nor the Biblical mandate to make such a judgement.
>
> We can only lay claim to the truth of God's Word
> and the reality of the Holy Spirit coming to live in us as a result of our salvation.
>
> God is love...and will receive ALL who come to Him in faith.
>
> BF
>
> Bf,
You wrote,[...no.. (does the bible in question state that those that use mind-altering drugs will be cast into the Lake of Fire).
I am unsure as to how you determined your answer. If you could post answers to the following, then I couuld have the opportunity to respond accordingly.
A.Did you use the entire Bibile including Rev 21:8 as part of your answer that one will not be cast into the Lake of Fire if they use mind-altering drugs?
B. If so, what in that verse, if anything, leads you to state the answer as {no}?
C. something else.
Lou
Posted by SLS on April 2, 2010, at 17:32:18
In reply to Re: Lou's reply-altrmyn? » Lou Pilder, posted by SLS on March 31, 2010, at 5:39:53
Lou.
> > A. Where is there a record in that Bibile that says that Noah had daughters?
> You are quite right. My mistake. I confused Noah with another biblical personage.
Despite this error, I am still wondering how one is to reconcile your report of a proscription of the use of mind altering substances and the biblical ritualized drinking of wine, a well known mind altering substance. Scholars argue whether the "yayin" of the bible even means fermented wine. I look forward to your sharing your thoughts on this matter. I don't yet know of a proscription in the bible of the use of medicines to treat painful and debilitating mental illnesses. I imagine this has been an issue for talmudic discussion. I haven't looked into it, though.
- Scott
Posted by Lou Pilder on April 2, 2010, at 18:02:16
In reply to Re: Lou's reply-altrmyn?, posted by SLS on April 2, 2010, at 17:32:18
> Lou.
>
> > > A. Where is there a record in that Bibile that says that Noah had daughters?
>
> > You are quite right. My mistake. I confused Noah with another biblical personage.
>
> Despite this error, I am still wondering how one is to reconcile your report of a proscription of the use of mind altering substances and the biblical ritualized drinking of wine, a well known mind altering substance. Scholars argue whether the "yayin" of the bible even means fermented wine. I look forward to your sharing your thoughts on this matter. I don't yet know of a proscription in the bible of the use of medicines to treat painful and debilitating mental illnesses. I imagine this has been an issue for talmudic discussion. I haven't looked into it, though.
>
>
>
>
> - ScottScott,
You wrote,[...I am..wondering...your thoughts...use ..for mental illness...].
The historical record shows for thousands of yearrs there were people that wanted to give people chemicals to treat evrything. They were called medicine men, witch doctors, etc.
The bible here teaches many things about chemicals that have mind-altering properties as to if or if not one is to go to those that supply them to others or to use them. Alcohol is a powerful chemical and addictive and harmful to the body and mind.
If you could post here a bible verse that you think means that that God wants people to drink alcohol, then I could respond to that.
Lou
Posted by SLS on April 3, 2010, at 8:00:39
In reply to Lou's reply-benhotdec » SLS, posted by Lou Pilder on April 2, 2010, at 18:02:16
> If you could post here a bible verse that you think means that that God wants people to drink alcohol, then I could respond to that.
I cannot. You make a good point here. Apparently, yayin (wine) comes to mean the juice of the grape, both fermented and unfermented. You are right in that the bible makes several references to God's discouragement of intoxication by yayin. I find it interesting that fermented yayin has been used in religious rituals for so many centuries. Is it that biblical scholars have overlooked something important, or have they studied the bible closely enough to conclude that fermented yayin is allowed? I am baffled that there can be so much debate on this issue if the language of the bible were so clear. God permits the drinking of yayin. However, it could be that it is only of the unfermented type.
Deuteronomy 14:23
"And before the LORD your God, in the place which he will choose, to make his name dwell there, you shall eat the tithe of your grain, of your wine, and of your oil"
- Scott
Posted by Buckeye Fan on April 3, 2010, at 8:29:08
In reply to Lou's reply-wolbib, posted by Lou Pilder on April 2, 2010, at 16:44:23
I assume The subject and translation of the word sorcery, is what you are talking about Lou.
I have studied, and had this discussion many times over the years.The practice os witchcraft and sorcery is often accompanied by the administration of mind-altering drugs ( potions)...to place the person in a more suggestable state of mind.
This in no way incinuates that advances in medical care....including chemicals...somehow makes someone a practitioner of sorcery.
Centuries ago....people died from a cold.
I for one am glad that God has allowed mankind to discover ways of helping facilitate the healing of broken bones, diseases, illness, viruses, reading glasses, etc...
The word sorcery is used about 6 times in the Bible.
It is connected with witchcraft...including trying to cast spells, talking to the dead, invoking evil spirits, and spiritually blinding the heart of spirit of another.The practice of medicine, ( though vastly corrupted today) is an advance in living that I am glad we have today.
In the perfect enviroment of the Garden of Eden...man was made to live in good health naturally.
after the fall of man and sin entered the world..a host of consequences was set into motion.Including health problems.
Now thousands of years later....our gene pool is so changed, watered down and corrupted...that medicines once not needed are now life saving.
Not God's first choice....ill health is another result of Sin...We can increase our chances of good health through proper diet, exercise and staying away from toxins to the human system...but evwn at our best, there is now a genetic tie in to inherited health conditions that we are born with.
Thank God for aspirin....
Posted by SLS on April 3, 2010, at 11:02:06
In reply to Re: Lou's reply-wolbib, posted by Buckeye Fan on April 3, 2010, at 8:29:08
> Thank God for aspirin....
...and for psychiatric medicines. When the chosen medicine is a good match for the ailing individual, the mind is not altered in the direction of an unnatural state of being, but, rather, is moved away from the unhealthy influence of aberrant brain function by facilitating its normalization.
- Scott
Posted by Lou PIlder on April 3, 2010, at 13:32:27
In reply to Re: Lou's reply-wolbib, posted by SLS on April 3, 2010, at 11:02:06
> > Thank God for aspirin....
>
> ...and for psychiatric medicines. When the chosen medicine is a good match for the ailing individual, the mind is not altered in the direction of an unnatural state of being, but, rather, is moved away from the unhealthy influence of aberrant brain function by facilitating its normalization.
>
>
> - ScottScott,
You wrote,[...the mind is not altered in the direction of an unatural state (if it is a good match)... to normalization...].
I am unsure as to what you are wanting to mean. If you could post an answer to the following, then I could have the opportunity to respond accordingly.
There is a warning mandated by the FDA to many chemicals called psychiatric drugs that states that one's mind could be changed to think of killing themselves.
If the persons taking one of those drugs were not thinking of killing themselves before taking the drug, then I think that the suicide ideation that could be induced by the drug is an altered state of that person's mind.
My questions are; (A). how could a chosen drug be determined to be or not to be a good match before it is chosen if the drug chosen has the potential to cause one to think of killing themselves?
Other questins to follow...
Lou
Posted by SLS on April 3, 2010, at 14:17:00
In reply to Lou's reply-knoarmul? » SLS, posted by Lou PIlder on April 3, 2010, at 13:32:27
Hi Lou.
Untoward psychiatric side effects are not exclusive to psychiatric drugs. Prednisone is a leading example of how a drug critical to the healing of disease can produce psychosis and depression. There a risks along with the benefits. It is incumbent upon the treating physician to monitor for the evolution of these side effects and address them accordingly. There are at least two scenarios by which a patient being treated with an antidepressant can express suicidality as a treatment-emergent effect. A good physician recognizes this, and must monitor a patient closely early in treatment. It is unfortunate that there has been such a dearth of study of these phenomena, as it would prove instructive to ascertain their frequency. It is my impression that it occurs in a small minority of cases.
I will yield to you here.
I have discussed this issue with others several times in the past. It has many facets and requires some effort to address them all. At the moment, I am not interested in revisiting it. I recognize and appreciate your passions and intentions. However, I very much disagree with your conclusions. Unfortunately, there still remains a backlash against the use of psychiatric drugs, even though they save lives and reduce suffering when used intelligently. For now, my primary concern is that the drugs you would have taken away from me remain available, as they do afford me a reduction of pain and suffering.
- Scott
Posted by Lou PIlder on April 3, 2010, at 15:14:06
In reply to Re: Lou's reply-knoarmul? » Lou PIlder, posted by SLS on April 3, 2010, at 14:17:00
> Hi Lou.
>
> Untoward psychiatric side effects are not exclusive to psychiatric drugs. Prednisone is a leading example of how a drug critical to the healing of disease can produce psychosis and depression. There a risks along with the benefits. It is incumbent upon the treating physician to monitor for the evolution of these side effects and address them accordingly. There are at least two scenarios by which a patient being treated with an antidepressant can express suicidality as a treatment-emergent effect. A good physician recognizes this, and must monitor a patient closely early in treatment. It is unfortunate that there has been such a dearth of study of these phenomena, as it would prove instructive to ascertain their frequency. It is my impression that it occurs in a small minority of cases.
>
> I will yield to you here.
>
> I have discussed this issue with others several times in the past. It has many facets and requires some effort to address them all. At the moment, I am not interested in revisiting it. I recognize and appreciate your passions and intentions. However, I very much disagree with your conclusions. Unfortunately, there still remains a backlash against the use of psychiatric drugs, even though they save lives and reduce suffering when used intelligently. For now, my primary concern is that the drugs you would have taken away from me remain available, as they do afford me a reduction of pain and suffering.
>
>
> - ScottFriends,
It is written herte,[...It is incumbent upon the treating physician to monitor for the evolution of these side effects (suicide ideation)...]
I agree. However, the treating physician can not be with the person taking the drug all the time. I also know of cases where hospitalized people taking these drugs in question have killed themselves.
It is written here,[...I disagree with your conclusions...].
Friends, this thread is about what the bible in question here says or does not say in relation to if those taking mind-altering drugs will have their place in the Lake of Fire. I do not think that I have stated a conclusion in this thread and if one sees one by me, please post it here so that I can respond.
It is written here,[...drugs you would have taken away from me...]
I do not believe that in this thread I have posted to have those drugs in question taken away from anyone. The thread here is a faith thread about as to if those that use mind-altering drugs will be cast into the Lake of Fire by the God of the bible here in question. Could all of you that are reading this please understand that my passion here is to save lives and to help those that want to be free from mind-altering drugs by offering support and education to them from my perspective. I am not involved in any group to have psychotropic drugs taken off the market. I am not a member of any religious or other group having an agenda aginst psychotropic drugs.
Lou
Posted by Lou PIlder on April 3, 2010, at 15:54:20
In reply to Lou's response-phazahkyu » SLS, posted by Lou PIlder on April 3, 2010, at 15:14:06
> > Hi Lou.
> >
> > Untoward psychiatric side effects are not exclusive to psychiatric drugs. Prednisone is a leading example of how a drug critical to the healing of disease can produce psychosis and depression. There a risks along with the benefits. It is incumbent upon the treating physician to monitor for the evolution of these side effects and address them accordingly. There are at least two scenarios by which a patient being treated with an antidepressant can express suicidality as a treatment-emergent effect. A good physician recognizes this, and must monitor a patient closely early in treatment. It is unfortunate that there has been such a dearth of study of these phenomena, as it would prove instructive to ascertain their frequency. It is my impression that it occurs in a small minority of cases.
> >
> > I will yield to you here.
> >
> > I have discussed this issue with others several times in the past. It has many facets and requires some effort to address them all. At the moment, I am not interested in revisiting it. I recognize and appreciate your passions and intentions. However, I very much disagree with your conclusions. Unfortunately, there still remains a backlash against the use of psychiatric drugs, even though they save lives and reduce suffering when used intelligently. For now, my primary concern is that the drugs you would have taken away from me remain available, as they do afford me a reduction of pain and suffering.
> >
> >
> > - Scott
>
> Friends,
> It is written herte,[...It is incumbent upon the treating physician to monitor for the evolution of these side effects (suicide ideation)...]
> I agree. However, the treating physician can not be with the person taking the drug all the time. I also know of cases where hospitalized people taking these drugs in question have killed themselves.
> It is written here,[...I disagree with your conclusions...].
> Friends, this thread is about what the bible in question here says or does not say in relation to if those taking mind-altering drugs will have their place in the Lake of Fire. I do not think that I have stated a conclusion in this thread and if one sees one by me, please post it here so that I can respond.
> It is written here,[...drugs you would have taken away from me...]
> I do not believe that in this thread I have posted to have those drugs in question taken away from anyone. The thread here is a faith thread about as to if those that use mind-altering drugs will be cast into the Lake of Fire by the God of the bible here in question. Could all of you that are reading this please understand that my passion here is to save lives and to help those that want to be free from mind-altering drugs by offering support and education to them from my perspective. I am not involved in any group to have psychotropic drugs taken off the market. I am not a member of any religious or other group having an agenda aginst psychotropic drugs.
> Lou
>
Friends,
This thread is involved in discussion as to if those that use mind-altering drugs will or will not be cast into the Lake of Fire as in the bible in question here.
You may know of some of the popular teachings concerning the Lake of Fire and who is assigned or not to be cast into there.
One, (BF), has brought up here that there is a teaching concerning sorcerers in relation to mind-altering drugs that is mentioned in relation to the Lake of Fire in that bible. But my concern here is that it has been revealed to me that there is a way that one can be cast into the Lake of Fire and not be harmed. I would not want anyone to have the fate of being cast into a Lake of Fire and suffer that kind of harm.
You see, if you believe in that the bible in question here is true, then is not all of what is written in it true?
And as I stood at the edge of the Great Gulf I saw a great Fire with people being cast into it at the bottom of the gulf. And the Rider was there and He said to me, "He that overcomes will not be hurt by the second death."
My friends, I want for you as a people to not be hurt by the second death. I may not be able to tell you here how to escape that fate. But you could email me if you like.
Lou
Posted by Sigismund on April 3, 2010, at 16:34:39
In reply to Lou's response-secndth, posted by Lou PIlder on April 3, 2010, at 15:54:20
>I may not be able to tell you here how to escape that fate.
Why not?
Posted by SLS on April 3, 2010, at 18:17:53
In reply to Lou's response-secndth, posted by Lou PIlder on April 3, 2010, at 15:54:20
> This thread is involved in discussion as to if those that use mind-altering drugs will or will not be cast into the Lake of Fire as in the bible in question here.
I guess I missed your point. I am interested in knowing what data you are working with.
If you are to focus the discussion solely around the words of the bible and the interpretation thereof, I would be grateful if you would cite some of the verses in the bible that you feel demonstrate the validity of your thesis. I would also profit from being provided with a short list of some of the chemicals that God deems to be mind-altering, and the criteria by which one is to recognize them.
Thanks.
- Scott
Posted by Lou Pilder on April 4, 2010, at 11:01:25
In reply to Re: Lou's response-secndth » Lou PIlder, posted by SLS on April 3, 2010, at 18:17:53
> > This thread is involved in discussion as to if those that use mind-altering drugs will or will not be cast into the Lake of Fire as in the bible in question here.
>
> I guess I missed your point. I am interested in knowing what data you are working with.
>
> If you are to focus the discussion solely around the words of the bible and the interpretation thereof, I would be grateful if you would cite some of the verses in the bible that you feel demonstrate the validity of your thesis. I would also profit from being provided with a short list of some of the chemicals that God deems to be mind-altering, and the criteria by which one is to recognize them.
>
> Thanks.
>
>
> - Scott
>
Scott,
You wrote.[...I am interested...if you would cite...].
The subject here is if the bible in question here prescribes that those that use, provide, ect mind-altering chemicals will be cast into the Lake of Fire. There has been a citation of Rev 21:8 where BF posts a link to an exposition of that chapter that does say that {sorcerers} are those involved some way in drug-induced conditions.
The word in that bible, {sorcerer} is translated from a Greek word, [...pharmakeia, pharmakeus...]. We get the word {pharmacy} and {pharmaceuticals} from that Greek word. The discussion here is if these passages are about or not the use of mind-altering drugs that could be a part of {sorcery} that the bible here prescribes that those that practice such are cast into the Lake of fire according to verses in the book called revelation and other books also.
That bible writes about what happens to the sorcerers in Rev 21:8 and in other passages such as Rev 22:14-15 among other verses in other books.
The concern here by me is to offer support and education to save lives. And to offer what has been revealed to me about the scriptures in question concerning the fate of those that use mind-altering chemicals, also called medicines here. And if you could ask other questions, I could have the opportunity to respondd accordingly.
Lou
Posted by SLS on April 4, 2010, at 11:24:39
In reply to Lou's reply-farmah » SLS, posted by Lou Pilder on April 4, 2010, at 11:01:25
Do you accept the New Testament as gospel?
- Scott
Posted by SLS on April 4, 2010, at 11:29:25
In reply to Re: Lou's reply-farmah » Lou Pilder, posted by SLS on April 4, 2010, at 11:24:39
> Do you accept the New Testament as gospel?
Sorry. Never mind.
That question is not particularly productive on this forum.
- Scott
Posted by SLS on April 4, 2010, at 12:13:45
In reply to Lou's reply-farmah » SLS, posted by Lou Pilder on April 4, 2010, at 11:01:25
> The concern here by me is to offer support and education to save lives.
Ok. That is my concern as well.
> And if you could ask other questions, I could have the opportunity to respondd accordingly.
You can first try answering the ones I have already asked. If you are intent on dissuading people from taking life-saving medicines, it would be helpful if you were to respond to the following:
"I would be grateful if you would cite some of the verses in the bible that you feel demonstrate the validity of your thesis. I would also profit from being provided with a short list of some of the chemicals that God deems to be mind-altering, and the criteria by which one is to recognize them"
- Scott
Posted by Lou Pilder on April 4, 2010, at 15:05:43
In reply to Re: Lou's reply-farmah, posted by SLS on April 4, 2010, at 12:13:45
> > The concern here by me is to offer support and education to save lives.
>
> Ok. That is my concern as well.
>
> > And if you could ask other questions, I could have the opportunity to respondd accordingly.
>
> You can first try answering the ones I have already asked. If you are intent on dissuading people from taking life-saving medicines, it would be helpful if you were to respond to the following:
>
> "I would be grateful if you would cite some of the verses in the bible that you feel demonstrate the validity of your thesis. I would also profit from being provided with a short list of some of the chemicals that God deems to be mind-altering, and the criteria by which one is to recognize them"
>
>
> - ScottScott,
You wrote,[...dissuading people...]
This thread is involving as to if the bible in question here consigns those that take or supply mind-altering drugs to the Lake of Fire. This involves many bible verses and in particular thhose concerning sorcery.
People who are interested in this from my perspective, or from your or other's perspective, can make their own determination as to if or if not they consider whatever is posted here by any member in regards to their decisions. It is not my intention to dissuade one from taking mind-altering drugs, but to offer support and education to thiose in order for them to make their own decisions. Some people believe that the bible in question here is the Truth and The Word of God. Others in this discussion may not accept that.
As to your questions, I could not post some answers to them in this forum, for they would come from a Jewish perspective where Mr. Hsiung has posted to me a threat to expell me from this community if I was to post that foundation of my faith which I believe.
Lou
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