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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 5 to 29 of 29. Go back in thread:
Posted by Phillipa on January 12, 2006, at 21:58:11
In reply to Re: Phenylethylamine inhibits noradrenaline uptake, posted by linkadge on January 12, 2006, at 15:16:07
Hey Link does this apply to women as well. When I ran I got high and felt great! There's no other excercise that can compare with running. Trying to start slow jogging again. Fondly, Phillipa
Posted by Declan on January 13, 2006, at 1:37:18
In reply to Re: Phenylethylamine inhibits noradrenaline uptake » linkadge, posted by Phillipa on January 12, 2006, at 21:44:32
This is slightly different, but not too much so. There was an article in yesterday's paper about a study done with oxytocin nasal spray for social phobia, which seemed encouraging. PEA plus oxytocin might be good for the (frustrated) romantic phobics among us.
Declan
Posted by Meri-Tuuli on January 13, 2006, at 5:36:36
In reply to Re: Phenylethylamine inhibits noradrenaline uptake, posted by Declan on January 13, 2006, at 1:37:18
Hello folks!
So erm, is the study trying to suggest that phenylethylamine levels increase afer exercise, and hence inhibit the reuptake of noradrenaline more, and so thats why exercise has anti-depressant effects (or so they are hypothesising)?
Interesting!
Exercise definately is good!
Posted by Shawn T. on January 13, 2006, at 14:11:47
In reply to Phenylethylamine inhibits noradrenaline uptake, posted by linkadge on January 12, 2006, at 8:56:16
Several researchers have reached that conclusion. I'm skeptical about the possibility that concentrations of this "trace" amine are high enough in most people to actually affect norepinephrine transport, but the possibility does exist.
Shawn
See http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=15447669 and http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=9681456
Posted by linkadge on January 13, 2006, at 17:22:38
In reply to Re: Phenylethylamine inhibits noradrenaline uptake » linkadge, posted by Shawn T. on January 13, 2006, at 14:11:47
I wonder if taking a MAO-B inhibitor would bring PEA to a level that would affect NET.
If this were true, one would wonder if a MAOI could interact with itself. Ie inhibition of MAO-A and NET would result in even higher levels of norepinephrine.
Linkadge
Posted by Sarah T. on January 14, 2006, at 1:30:07
In reply to Re: Phenylethylamine inhibits noradrenaline uptake » linkadge, posted by Shawn T. on January 13, 2006, at 14:11:47
Hi Shawn,
Do you have any ideas about why exercise is such an effective antidepressant for so many people? When I'm on an antidepressant, my meds don't seem to kick in until I've exercised, but the exercise has to be pretty intense and sustained. Although walking is an excellent exercise, just plain walking doesn't provide much of an antidepressant effect for me. I have to get my heart rate and breathing up for at least 30-45 minutes. Once the antidepressant effect kicks in, it lasts for at least 12 hours or until I wake up the next morning. Then, like Sisyphus, I have to start all over again!
Sarah
Posted by blueberry on January 14, 2006, at 7:02:58
In reply to Re: Phenylethylamine inhibits noradrenaline uptake » Shawn T., posted by Sarah T. on January 14, 2006, at 1:30:07
You might be able to get the same effect, except lasting continuously, with a simple amino acid supplement. A book I'm using says not to use heavy exercise to build up the feel good endorphins, because eventually what happens is it drains the adrenal glands and the endorphin reserve pools. Moderate exercise is what they recommend, but not the "runner's high" kind of exercise. Instead, they recommend supplying the body with more of the endorphins naturally.
Anyway, you could try one of three amino acids, one at a time for a few days each. DL-phenylalanine (health food store). D-Phenylalanine (internet mail order). L-phenylalanine (health food store). They all boost the feel good endorphins. But each person's chemistry and metabolism is different, so trial and error is the only way to find which one you like the best. Doses can range anywhere from 100mg to 3000mg a day. Precautions are possible insomnia if taken too late in the day, possible increased blood pressure at high doses, and possible jitteriness if they aren't right for you (usually means the dose was too much). Break tablets into custom sized pieces, or dump powder out of capsules for custom doses.
Personally I favor the idea of combining moderate exercise with a low dose of one of the three amino acids. Just an opinion though.
> Hi Shawn,
>
> Do you have any ideas about why exercise is such an effective antidepressant for so many people? When I'm on an antidepressant, my meds don't seem to kick in until I've exercised, but the exercise has to be pretty intense and sustained. Although walking is an excellent exercise, just plain walking doesn't provide much of an antidepressant effect for me. I have to get my heart rate and breathing up for at least 30-45 minutes. Once the antidepressant effect kicks in, it lasts for at least 12 hours or until I wake up the next morning. Then, like Sisyphus, I have to start all over again!
>
> Sarah
Posted by nolvas on January 14, 2006, at 7:15:48
In reply to Re: Phenylethylamine inhibits noradrenaline uptake, posted by Declan on January 13, 2006, at 1:37:18
I had a look for tht study and came up with a few www pages. Here's one if anyone is interested.
http://www.oxytocin.org/oxytoc/trust.html
Posted by linkadge on January 14, 2006, at 8:01:10
In reply to Re: Phenylethylamine inhibits noradrenaline uptake, posted by nolvas on January 14, 2006, at 7:15:48
The research for exercise as an antidepressant is very compelling.
Many studies show it is as effective as standard treatments for mild to moderate depression.
Not many studies have been done with severe depression, but in the ones that have been done the results are still positive.
Moderate exercise may be good, but intensity is probably beneficial all the way up to the point where you are over-exhausting the body.
Basically exercise does what antidepressants do, but generally it does it better, with fewer side effects.
It seems to cause the same adaptive changes in monoamine receptor systems that antidepressants do, it also has delayed effects on the HPA axis, that will act as a buffer against sudden surges of stress hormones etc.
It increases the levels of various growth factors, BDNF NGF, NT-3, FGF, GDNF, GAP-43, etc, and kickstarts hippocampal proliferation and neurogenesis.
I have prevented depressive relapses with exercise alone.
Linkadge
Posted by Sarah T. on January 14, 2006, at 12:20:11
In reply to Re: Phenylethylamine inhibits noradrenaline uptake » Sarah T., posted by blueberry on January 14, 2006, at 7:02:58
Hi blueberry,
Thanks for your post. What book is that you're reading?
S.
Posted by Sarah T. on January 14, 2006, at 12:29:53
In reply to Re: Phenylethylamine inhibits noradrenaline uptake, posted by linkadge on January 14, 2006, at 8:01:10
Hi Linkadge,
I have found what you've said to be true. Exercise is the best antidepressant for me, but it's awfully time-consuming, sometimes I'm unable to get to the gym, and I have to exercise every day or, at the very least, every other day. Anything less than that, and I become too depressed to get to the gym. Exercise is wonderful, but it doesn't seem to have much carryover from one day to the next. The AD effects last about 12 hours for me. Sleep seems to destroy those effects.
I have no intention of stopping exercise if, or when, the ideal antidepressant is invented (ha!), but it surely would be nice if there were some back-up system for those days when I can't get to the gym or I have to travel to a place that doesn't have good exercise facilities.
Sarah
Posted by Sarah T. on January 14, 2006, at 12:33:52
In reply to Re: Phenylethylamine inhibits noradrenaline uptake » Sarah T., posted by blueberry on January 14, 2006, at 7:02:58
Blueberry,
I will probably try those phenylalanine supplements you recommended. I'm a bit skeptical, however, only because I've tried so many supplements over the years and, except for magnesium, I've been very disappointed. Tyrosine, phosphatidylserine, coenzyme-Q and alpha-lipoic acid made me feel horrid!
S.
Posted by linkadge on January 14, 2006, at 15:39:08
In reply to Re: Phenylethylamine inhibits noradrenaline uptake » linkadge, posted by Sarah T. on January 14, 2006, at 12:29:53
I split up what I've noticed about exercise.
It gives me a quick boost, which lasts only the day (like you said). But I do notice that I adapt much better to my environment when I am exercising, I learn better, I sleep better, I have a better appetite.
Anyhow, If I quit exercising for a few weeks I notice I am a lot worse than if I just quit for a day.
But it will affect people differently.
P.S. Exercising to music, is even better.
Linkadge
Posted by Sarah T. on January 16, 2006, at 0:41:12
In reply to Re: Phenylethylamine inhibits noradrenaline uptake » linkadge, posted by Shawn T. on January 13, 2006, at 14:11:47
Hi Shawn,
I'm sorry to hijack this thread, but I'm trying to get your attention, and I don't know whether you ever venture over to the PB Social board. My question is, are you Shawn Talbott, the one who wrote "THE CORTISOL CONNECTION"?
Posted by Sarah T. on January 16, 2006, at 1:19:25
In reply to Re: Phenylethylamine inhibits noradrenaline uptake, posted by linkadge on January 14, 2006, at 15:39:08
Hi Linkadge,
I have the same response to exercise. Everything is better. As the YMCA logo says, "Mind, Body, and Spirit."
What kind of music do you like to use for exercise?
Do you have any home exercise equipment or do you go to the gym?
S.
Posted by Meri-Tuuli on January 16, 2006, at 8:52:30
In reply to Re: Phenylethylamine inhibits noradrenaline uptake » linkadge, posted by Sarah T. on January 16, 2006, at 1:19:25
Hey!
If exercise is such a powerful antidepressant, do you think that people who have alot of habitual exercise in their daily routines (such as aerobics instructors, carpeters, construction workers, farmers, cleaners etc) are less likely to become depressed than those who don't, such as office workers etc?
Also, does anyone think that the increasing rates of depression in developing countries could be attributed to decreasing levels of habitual exercise? As in people are far less active today generally than they were in past decades or even centuries?? So this would account for increasing rates of depression, as identified by WHO.
Hmmm interesting, although very difficult to test.
Posted by linkadge on January 16, 2006, at 9:39:42
In reply to Re: Phenylethylamine inhibits noradrenaline uptake » linkadge, posted by Sarah T. on January 16, 2006, at 1:19:25
No, usually just put on various techno music, and go for a run outside.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on January 16, 2006, at 9:44:29
In reply to Re: Phenylethylamine inhibits noradrenaline uptake, posted by Meri-Tuuli on January 16, 2006, at 8:52:30
I think you're on the ball.
I think that a more sendintary lifestyles could certainly be a large factor in increasing rates of depression.
And, yes I think that jobs that limit movement and exercise can definately increase depressive symptoms.
Thats one way they induce depression in mice is by confining them.
I remember reading a study on how depressive and attention symptoms were correlated with weather or not kids walked to school or took the bus!
Linkadge
Posted by Meri-Tuuli on January 17, 2006, at 5:08:25
In reply to Re: Phenylethylamine inhibits noradrenaline uptake » Meri-Tuuli, posted by linkadge on January 16, 2006, at 9:44:29
Interesting isn't it.
I know when I have been doing fieldwork outside for long periods or when I've been hiking/camping I have always felt great. I think being outdoors is good too - my mother always says that you should have at least two hours outside in the fresh air!!
So (and please forgive me I think I might have asked you this before!) what amount of CV/aerobic exercise should you aim for in a week? Like five times a week for 30 mins at 80% of your heart rate? Something like that?
I don't know how you have the motivation to run outside. I certainly don't! Plus I always feel rather self consious.....but I think it is good. Fresh air, exercise and music is certainly a winner!
Posted by linkadge on January 17, 2006, at 16:00:48
In reply to Re: Phenylethylamine inhibits noradrenaline uptake, posted by Meri-Tuuli on January 17, 2006, at 5:08:25
I've been on treadmills and elypicals etc, but its not the same.
Jogging outside probably engages the brain more, its not so repetitive, and if you find a great place to run it can be thrilling.
When you jog outside you get movement too. Movement of the scenery passing by you.
For me, its not so much about how long or how hard, but more that I just go out and run till I've got things out, and try to find a new path to take each time I go. It's like an adventure. It makes me feel alive.
But its funny, when you start to jog, your brain starts to really get good at finding solutions to other problems in life.
If I'm not up to it, I just do a walk/run. Just run for as long as possable, and then just walk.For me, its about freedom. In school, and in life there are so many restrictions, confinements. When I jog, it shifts life back to being about me, I get to choose. If I've had a more stressfull day, sometimes It takes a longer run to get things out.
But as far as mood goes, 1/2 hour to 1 hour seems to help the most.
When you get out of it, it seems like such a chore to start up, just another thing you "should" be doing. But the more I do it, the more I become addicted to it, the more I crave it.
Linkadge
Posted by Meri-Tuuli on January 18, 2006, at 11:12:17
In reply to Re: Phenylethylamine inhibits noradrenaline uptake, posted by linkadge on January 17, 2006, at 16:00:48
That was a pretty inspiring post.
I just wish I could take a leaf out of your book!
Meri
Posted by Shawn T. on January 18, 2006, at 12:50:35
In reply to Re: Shawn T. -- a question for you » Shawn T., posted by Sarah T. on January 16, 2006, at 0:41:12
Sorry, I'm not Shawn Talbott. My name is Shawn Thomas. You can check out my web site at http://www.neurotransmitter.net
Posted by linkadge on January 18, 2006, at 18:38:41
In reply to Re: Shawn T. -- a question for you » Sarah T., posted by Shawn T. on January 18, 2006, at 12:50:35
Shawn T, is the smartest guy I know.
Linkadge
Posted by Sarah T. on January 19, 2006, at 0:38:45
In reply to Re: Shawn T. -- a question for you » Sarah T., posted by Shawn T. on January 18, 2006, at 12:50:35
Hi Shawn.
Thanks for your reply. Please don't apologize. I have looked at your excellent website before. Your posts are so interesting that I assumed you were the author of that book.
Sarah
Posted by Sarah T. on January 19, 2006, at 0:39:57
In reply to Re: Shawn T. -- a question for you, posted by linkadge on January 18, 2006, at 18:38:41
> Shawn T, is the smartest guy I know.>
> LinkadgeYes, we're very fortunate that he takes the time to post here on Psychobabble.
This is the end of the thread.
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