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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 10 of 10. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by jasmineneroli on November 18, 2004, at 20:17:46
Hey guys!
Felt really crappy over the weekend and blamed it on the lower Tryptophan dose (1000mg). It turns out I had the 'flu!!!
Well, in my own defense, it wasn't an impulsive conclusion to draw, because so MANY of my bad drug S/E's, felt like awful body flu's and 3 weeks later I realized that flu doesn't last that long. So I drop the drug, and yay, feel better immediately!!
However, my sleep had not improved further, after the initial imrovement (from 3-4 nightly awakenings to 2). So last night I increased the bedtime Trypt. to 2000mg (from 1500mg). I slept for 5 straight hours before waking up this time, fell asleep easily and woke to my alarm. That's a huge improvement!
I'm going to stay at 2000mg for now, but will likely increase it further. I want to sleep THROUGH the night, and have an even mood. Not too much to ask, is it?
I had quite a bit of irritable anxiety during the flu/1000mg-1250mg Trypt period. Would an illness have an affect on my utilization of Trypt. making it not as effective? If that's the case, should supplements be increased when the immune system is under attack?
Or do I still need more Trypt. for better anxiolytic effects?
Thanks,
Jas
PS
Does anyone know which P450 enzymes inhibit/enhance Tryptophan???
Posted by raybakes on November 19, 2004, at 16:00:25
In reply to More on Tryptophan- does illness affect efficacy?, posted by jasmineneroli on November 18, 2004, at 20:17:46
> Hey guys!
> Felt really crappy over the weekend and blamed it on the lower Tryptophan dose (1000mg). It turns out I had the 'flu!!!
> Well, in my own defense, it wasn't an impulsive conclusion to draw, because so MANY of my bad drug S/E's, felt like awful body flu's and 3 weeks later I realized that flu doesn't last that long. So I drop the drug, and yay, feel better immediately!!
> However, my sleep had not improved further, after the initial imrovement (from 3-4 nightly awakenings to 2). So last night I increased the bedtime Trypt. to 2000mg (from 1500mg). I slept for 5 straight hours before waking up this time, fell asleep easily and woke to my alarm. That's a huge improvement!
> I'm going to stay at 2000mg for now, but will likely increase it further. I want to sleep THROUGH the night, and have an even mood. Not too much to ask, is it?
> I had quite a bit of irritable anxiety during the flu/1000mg-1250mg Trypt period. Would an illness have an affect on my utilization of Trypt. making it not as effective? If that's the case, should supplements be increased when the immune system is under attack?
> Or do I still need more Trypt. for better anxiolytic effects?
> Thanks,
> Jas
> PS
> Does anyone know which P450 enzymes inhibit/enhance Tryptophan???
>Don't know what p450 enzymes affect tryptophan hydroxylase, but St John's Wort has a profound effect on P450s.
During infection or inflammation peroxynitrite inhibits tryptophan hydroxylase. Also the enzyme IDO is upregulated to break down tryptophan via the kynurenine pathway as tryptophan degradation seems to be essential to help in fighting infection. Inflammation in autistic of chronic fatigue also breaks tryptophan down into a chemical called IAG, thought to disrupt serotonin.
Ray
Posted by jasmineneroli on November 19, 2004, at 17:10:25
In reply to Re: More on Tryptophan- does illness affect efficacy? » jasmineneroli, posted by raybakes on November 19, 2004, at 16:00:25
> Don't know what p450 enzymes affect tryptophan hydroxylase, but St John's Wort has a profound effect on P450s.
* Hmmmm, I'm going to have to look into it further.> During infection or inflammation peroxynitrite inhibits tryptophan hydroxylase. Also the enzyme IDO is upregulated to break down tryptophan via the kynurenine pathway as tryptophan degradation seems to be essential to help in fighting infection. Inflammation in autistic of chronic fatigue also breaks tryptophan down into a chemical called IAG, thought to disrupt serotonin.
>
> Ray
>
>*Thanks Ray, that makes HUGE sense, considering how I was feeling.
I don't know whether or not to increase the dosage if I become ill again at some point, to try to maintain a stable level. What do you think?
Jas
Posted by raybakes on November 20, 2004, at 13:28:14
In reply to Re: More on Tryptophan- does illness affect efficacy?, posted by jasmineneroli on November 19, 2004, at 17:10:25
>
> *Thanks Ray, that makes HUGE sense, considering how I was feeling.
> I don't know whether or not to increase the dosage if I become ill again at some point, to try to maintain a stable level. What do you think?
> JasI'm not sure what would be best, but this is what one abstract said..
'Relationship between interferon-gamma, indoleamine 2,3-dioxygenase, and tryptophan catabolism.'
".....and the enzyme (IDO) is induced in rodents after administration of interferon inducers, or influenza virus"
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=1907934Just wonder if it might be like trying to fill a bucket with holes in it, during a flu infection. Autoimmune people tend to overproduce interferon gamma, and so may break down too much tryptophan - niacinamide can help stop this pathway, as can glutathione, methyl donors and other antioxidants. But also bear in mind that tryptophan may prolong a viral illness...
"since the presence of excess amounts of l-tryptophan abrogates the antiviral effect induced by IFN-gamma and the combination of IFN-gamma and TNF-alpha."
'Inhibition of human herpes simplex virus type 2 by interferon gamma and tumor necrosis factor alpha is mediated by indoleamine 2,3-dioxygenase.'
Institut fur Virologie, Heinrich-Heine-Universitat, Universitatsstrasse 1, D-40225 Dusseldorf, Germany.Genital herpes simplex virus type 2 (HSV-2) is a significant clinical problem. Infection in pregnancy may result in disseminated infection of the newborn with encephalitis. We analyzed the antiviral effects induced by interferon-gamma (IFN-gamma) and tumor necrosis factor alpha (TNF-alpha) in cervix carcinoma cells (HeLa) and astrocytoma cells (86HG39). We found that replication of HSV-2 in HeLa cells and in 86HG39 cells is inhibited after stimulation of the cells by IFN-gamma and TNF-alpha. The antiviral effect of IFN-gamma is enhanced in the presence of TNF-alpha, while stimulation by TNF-alpha alone did not induce antiviral activity. We found that IFN-gamma induces a strong activation of the tryptophan-degrading enzyme indoleamine 2,3-dioxygenase (IDO) and in addition, that the IFN-gamma-induced IDO activity was enhanced in the presence of TNF-alpha. Furthermore, we found that the induction of IDO activity is responsible for the inhibition of herpes simplex virus replication, since the presence of excess amounts of l-tryptophan abrogates the antiviral effect induced by IFN-gamma and the combination of IFN-gamma and TNF-alpha. We therefore conclude that the antiviral effect against HSV-2 mediated by type II interferon and TNF-alpha are dependent on IDO activation
Hope it's not too confusing!
Ray
Posted by jasmineneroli on November 20, 2004, at 17:15:26
In reply to Re: More on Tryptophan- does illness affect efficacy? » jasmineneroli, posted by raybakes on November 20, 2004, at 13:28:14
Hi Ray:
Yes it is rather confusing to me, if I don't have the time to really think about it.
But there are some correlations to what you quote, with my recent experience.
If the same mechanisms apply to the Herpes Simplex that causes cold sores, I think I may have induced my own inflammatory response & "flu" last week!
1) I took 750mg of L-Arginine for 2 days, because it helps with anorgasmia (due to the nitric oxide pump it causes). I have been trying to eradicate the lingering sexual s/e's from my SSRI. It had helped in the past.
2) Just prior, I had increased the L Tryptophan dose up to 1500mg for several days, to try to improve my sleep response and anxiety. I was in the middle of trying to figure out the optimal anxiolytic dose for me.
3) I had "brain zaps", got scared and dropped the dose to 1250mg and then to 1000mg.
4) Last Saturday, I awoke to find a cold sore had developed, and I felt physically achey all over. Plus very grumpy. (I have a resident Herpes Simplex in a certain spot on my lip, but I'm not prone to cold sores, maybe get one annually).
5) Took mega doses of L-Lysine (1000mg x 3 per day, that Saturday. My health food store ppl, recommend up to 3000mg per day for the first few days of a Herpes outbreak). Lysine inhibits replication of Herpes, Arginine induces it.
6) Felt even worse. Lots of body aches, headaches, fatigue, irritability for several days.
7)Increased the L-Tryptophan back up to 1500mg on Monday. Then to 2000mg on Wednesday. Felt great by Thursday. (No more Lysine after Sunday). Slept!!!
Given 1) thru' 7):
Did I create my own body inflammation by my combination of amino acids??????? I thought I had flu (which may have been the case, since I work with the public a lot).
Looking at the abstract you quoted, if the same system applies to other versions of Herpes, I may have not only caused that cold sore outbreak, but further immune response, to the point of physiological symtpoms of illness.
Aaagh! In trying to solve 2 problems (anorgasmia and an alternative to SSRI's) I may have created a 3rd!
Comments??
Jas
Posted by raybakes on November 22, 2004, at 13:53:07
In reply to Re: More on Tryptophan- does illness affect efficacy? » raybakes, posted by jasmineneroli on November 20, 2004, at 17:15:26
Hi Jas,
Sometimes feels like we're juggling nutrients, get one in the air, another crashes to the floor!
You do sound like you fitted in with that herpes abstract... although effective, worried about lysine and arginine and homocysteine.
Taking high dose arginine and lysine can raise homocysteine - lysine uses SAMe to make carnitine, and arginine uses SAMe to make creatine, both essential in energy production
'Carnitine biosynthesis is initiated by methylation of lysine'
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=6361812
"supplemental L-arginine can, however, also increase the production of S-adenosylhomocysteine from S-adenosylmethionine through the methylation-dependent generation of creatine from guanidinoacetate"
Ray
Posted by yahtzee on November 22, 2004, at 15:18:26
In reply to More on Tryptophan- does illness affect efficacy?, posted by jasmineneroli on November 18, 2004, at 20:17:46
> Hey guys!
> Felt really crappy over the weekend and blamed it on the lower Tryptophan dose (1000mg). It turns out I had the 'flu!!!
> Well, in my own defense, it wasn't an impulsive conclusion to draw, because so MANY of my bad drug S/E's, felt like awful body flu's and 3 weeks later I realized that flu doesn't last that long. So I drop the drug, and yay, feel better immediately!!
> However, my sleep had not improved further, after the initial imrovement (from 3-4 nightly awakenings to 2). So last night I increased the bedtime Trypt. to 2000mg (from 1500mg). I slept for 5 straight hours before waking up this time, fell asleep easily and woke to my alarm. That's a huge improvement!
> I'm going to stay at 2000mg for now, but will likely increase it further. I want to sleep THROUGH the night, and have an even mood. Not too much to ask, is it?
> I had quite a bit of irritable anxiety during the flu/1000mg-1250mg Trypt period. Would an illness have an affect on my utilization of Trypt. making it not as effective? If that's the case, should supplements be increased when the immune system is under attack?
> Or do I still need more Trypt. for better anxiolytic effects?
> Thanks,
> Jas
> PS
> Does anyone know which P450 enzymes inhibit/enhance Tryptophan???
>I've been trying tryptophan for the past 2.5months, and have noticed that everytime I have a cold (which is surprisingly often with a baby at nursery!), my mood is v.negative especially in the first 3 or 4 days of the colds' onset. Once it's over the tryptophan "kicks" in and things are more balanced in terms of mood. Also noticed that the cold tends to linger longer whilst taking tryptophan.
Just an observation.
Rgds,
Y
Posted by jasmineneroli on November 22, 2004, at 23:07:49
In reply to Re: More on Tryptophan- does illness affect efficacy?, posted by yahtzee on November 22, 2004, at 15:18:26
Yes,
That seems to be the consensus, if you read Raybakes links posted above. Tryptophan doesn't look to be especially helpful during an infection, in terms of a positive immune response.
Perhaps, downright contra-indicated in some disease situations!
Sometimes I think I'm having a response caused by something I'm trying, but I often doubt myself. It's good to hear from others that have experienced a similar thing. Thanks for your input. It really helps to build up a picture about certain meds/supplements. The more I read and ask and learn, the more I realize I don't know!!
Jas
Posted by jasmineneroli on November 22, 2004, at 23:36:58
In reply to Re: More on Tryptophan- does illness affect efficacy? » jasmineneroli, posted by raybakes on November 22, 2004, at 13:53:07
> Sometimes feels like we're juggling nutrients, get one in the air, another crashes to the floor!* Yes! That's certainly very true. I am guinea-pigging my poor body to the max. I have to say that, it (my body) and I, have been very patient with all the standard medical treatments thrown at us over the past 5 or so years, and I'm now trying to maintain patience with the "alternative" experiments!
> You do sound like you fitted in with that herpes abstract... although effective, worried about lysine and arginine and homocysteine.
* Agreed, stopped both Lysine & Arginine after 2 days. I really didn't think the whole thing through, before leaping into adding them. It was a sort of "one thing leads to another".
> Taking high dose arginine and lysine can raise homocysteine - lysine uses SAMe to make carnitine, and arginine uses SAMe to make creatine, both essential in energy production
>
> 'Carnitine biosynthesis is initiated by methylation of lysine'*Didn't know about any of the above.
I have read that large doses of arginine for body-building purposes (since I'm in the industry now) to produce the big muscle "pump" from NO, has the effect of creating large free-radical production, thus requiring a larger use of anti-oxidants to maintain a good immune defence system.It's pretty scary to realize how dangerous messing around with amino acid combinations can be. I had actually been surprised by the ill-health of some of the serious body-builders at my gym........considering these people were very into fitness!!! Of course, now I know that the "look" of fitness sometimes belies the reality!
Regarding SAM-E; I just discovered that it's now available OTC in Canada. I will look back at the threads concerning that supplement when I have time, in preparation of maybe using it as an adjunct to Tryptophan or as a replacement therapy, in the future.
So much to learn, so little time! Why, oh why, didn't I take chemistry in college?!!
Thanks, as always.
Jas
Posted by raybakes on November 23, 2004, at 12:01:51
In reply to Re: More on Tryptophan- does illness affect efficacy? » raybakes, posted by jasmineneroli on November 22, 2004, at 23:36:58
This is the end of the thread.
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