![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 24 of 24. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by tealady on October 11, 2004, at 9:11:23
A doc (antiaging) who is standing in for my doc is into "leaky gut syndrome"..detoxes of gut first then liver detox.
By "into" I mean he thinks almost all problems are caused by "leaky gut"...which if there is an absorption problem.. agree things may be fixed if absorption can be fixed..butAs far as my understanding goes all cells "leak"(maybe 20-25%?)...but maybe there can be some cells more leaky than they should be?
On my first vist (I had to get a few scripts for thyroid meds etc) he "tested" me for leaky gut syndrome.
I can't find this test by googling on the net.It involved
ferric chloride
HCl hydrochoric acid
choloform (anesthetic I guess)add urine sample
if bubbles and cloudy..supposed to mean you have leaky gut syndrome....?
Test went like(from watching)..the Ferric Cl and HCl combines with urine and sits on top of the choroform..after shaking ..bubbles(tiny) are seen and the choroform goes cloudy colour..bubbles in choroform and a bit in urine, Ferric Cl,HCl mix
Apparently after the gut detox this urine test does not go cloudy or have bubbles.
I cannot figure out what happened in the test.
I'm only asking as you said you knew a bit about liver detox...wondered if you had heard of this one?
Thanks, Jan
Posted by raybakes on October 11, 2004, at 14:19:45
In reply to What'dya think of leaky gut syndrome?..Ray?, posted by tealady on October 11, 2004, at 9:11:23
> A doc (antiaging) who is standing in for my doc is into "leaky gut syndrome"..detoxes of gut first then liver detox.
> By "into" I mean he thinks almost all problems are caused by "leaky gut"...which if there is an absorption problem.. agree things may be fixed if absorption can be fixed..but
>
> As far as my understanding goes all cells "leak"(maybe 20-25%?)...but maybe there can be some cells more leaky than they should be?
>
> On my first vist (I had to get a few scripts for thyroid meds etc) he "tested" me for leaky gut syndrome.
> I can't find this test by googling on the net.
>
> It involved
>
> ferric chloride
> HCl hydrochoric acid
> choloform (anesthetic I guess)
>
> add urine sample
>
> if bubbles and cloudy..supposed to mean you have leaky gut syndrome....?
>
> Test went like(from watching)..the Ferric Cl and HCl combines with urine and sits on top of the choroform..after shaking ..bubbles(tiny) are seen and the choroform goes cloudy colour..bubbles in choroform and a bit in urine, Ferric Cl,HCl mix
>
> Apparently after the gut detox this urine test does not go cloudy or have bubbles.
>
> I cannot figure out what happened in the test.
>
> I'm only asking as you said you knew a bit about liver detox...wondered if you had heard of this one?
>
> >
>Hi Jan, haven't heard of this particular test - I've had the gut permeability test that uses mannitol and lactulose - sugars of different molecule size, one of which can only pass through the gut wall if the gut is leaky.
I would guess that your test goes cloudy when there is undigested food sediment in the urine, and not cloudy when the gut is healed?
Your doctor's ideas sound OK, but it does sound a bit of a 'catch all' therapy. Hope your doctor can adjust his treatment to suit your needs.
I've had gut and liver problems as you might have guessed!
Things I've done...
remove milk and wholemeal wheat.
colonic irrigation made me worse!
used some gut permeability formulas (thorne + nutri) containing NAG and glutamine.
Lactobaccilus GG, lactoferrin, betaine HCL, digestive enzymes, bile extract, phosphatidylcholine, butyrate, citricidin, mct, DHA + EPA - but not all at once! Over a few years...Think Jeff Bland, says the four 'R's
remove(allergens), rest, repair (NAG + glutamine) and replace (probiotics)For liver I started off with Bland's ultri clear, but then went on to support individual parts of the liver - glutathione, msm for sulphation and methionine, b12, folate and betaine for methylation. Did try a liver flush with a cup of olive oil and lemon juice but was so ill for several months!
It's only recently I've worked on the immune system and found when I did, my liver improved as autoimmunity undermines the liver pathways and gut integrity. Used an immune formula called RM10 for a while which helps my liver, but it can overdrive my immune system if i take it for too long!
Ray
Posted by tealady on October 11, 2004, at 23:41:14
In reply to Re: What'dya think of leaky gut syndrome?..Ray? » tealady, posted by raybakes on October 11, 2004, at 14:19:45
> > A doc (antiaging) who is standing in for my doc is into "leaky gut syndrome"..detoxes of gut first then liver detox.
> > By "into" I mean he thinks almost all problems are caused by "leaky gut"...which if there is an absorption problem.. agree things may be fixed if absorption can be fixed..but
> >
> > As far as my understanding goes all cells "leak"(maybe 20-25%?)...but maybe there can be some cells more leaky than they should be?
> >
> > On my first vist (I had to get a few scripts for thyroid meds etc) he "tested" me for leaky gut syndrome.
> > I can't find this test by googling on the net.
> >
> > It involved
> >
> > ferric chloride
> > HCl hydrochoric acid
> > choloform (anesthetic I guess)
> >
> > add urine sample
> >
> > if bubbles and cloudy..supposed to mean you have leaky gut syndrome....?
> >
> > Test went like(from watching)..the Ferric Cl and HCl combines with urine and sits on top of the choroform..after shaking ..bubbles(tiny) are seen and the choroform goes cloudy colour..bubbles in choroform and a bit in urine, Ferric Cl,HCl mix
> >
> > Apparently after the gut detox this urine test does not go cloudy or have bubbles.
> >
> > I cannot figure out what happened in the test.
> >
> > I'm only asking as you said you knew a bit about liver detox...wondered if you had heard of this one?
> >
> > >
> >
>
> Hi Jan, haven't heard of this particular test - I've had the gut permeability test that uses mannitol and lactulose - sugars of different molecule size, one of which can only pass through the gut wall if the gut is leaky.
>
That test sounds more credible.
Unfortunately I don't understand enough chemistry to work out if there is credibilty in the test I had..but I agree with your opinion I guess.
Can't be a great deal of incompletely digested food though in my urine, as my urine osmalility test is lowish, my blood osmalility was highish
urine 106 (50-1200) mosmol/Kg
blood 294 (280-295) mosmol/Kg (drank water then 15mins betwwen urine and blood test..so that should dilute blood test if anything).
I'm always thirsty..trying to cut back!...hence my weak jokes about not doing osmosis too well <g>
..this gut detox was the docs soln to above problem..and the fact that when I tried to cut down on water untake I got extremely depressed,cold, hands went blue etc, sigh
> I would guess that your test goes cloudy when there is undigested food sediment in the urine, and not cloudy when the gut is healed?
>
> Your doctor's ideas sound OK, but it does sound a bit of a 'catch all' therapy. Hope your doctor can adjust his treatment to suit your needs.
>Ahh, you honed in on my concern.
I'd already stopped his female hormone catchall..as I knew what my levels were and understood a little about that side
> I've had gut and liver problems as you might have guessed!
>
> Things I've done...
>
> remove milk and wholemeal wheat.Did you stay offwheat and milk permanently?..or just for the detox..if I do the detox I have to stay off these for the 6 weeks of the gut detox for starters...and I'm not a really big gluten eater, but I do like the variety being able to eat some bread gives(I eat oatmeal bread..but it still has some wheat and other grains). Brekkie is rolled oats if any cereal type with natural sultanas, nuts, ground linseed , milk..or that bread with sardines or eggs(not mixed<g>)
I've never shown any allergies to wheat, gluten or milk on tests either.
> colonic irrigation made me worse!
Now that's my BIGGEST concern..
I gather you start this detox(first 2 days) by taking a large dose of magnesium sulfate in water...and drinking it...sounds to me like if I didn't have a damaged gut beforehand, I'd sure have one after this stunt. Then you rehydrate with electrolyte fluids.So what did your colic irrigation consist of?
> used some gut permeability formulas (thorne + nutri) containing NAG and glutamine.
Step 2 (after the MgSulfate etc),
is for 2 weeks1(a) PAREX (metagenics)..to kill "bad" bacteria, fungae and worms
(black walnut, chinese wormwood,barberry, gentiant, grapefruit,
thyme oil, cinnamon bark oil, origanum oil spanish))(b)a powder ULTRA PROBIAPLEX(metagenics)..which contains
(whey protein concentrate,zinc sulfate,arabinogalactans(larix decidua), lactoferrin,lactoperodoxidase, potassium iodide, selenomethionine) ..according to label
..guess not too much iodide there and 2nd lowest ingredient...Step 3 is 4 weeks
(a)ULTRAFLORA..which is a probiotic(lactobacillus acidophilus..NCFM strain), bifidobacterium,probioplex(lactalbumin..)and(b) continue with the ULTRAPROBIAPLEX
that's the gut detox..then you can follow with a liver detox....maybe!
> Lactobaccilus GG, lactoferrin, betaine HCL, digestive enzymes, bile extract, phosphatidylcholine, butyrate, citricidin, mct, DHA + EPA - but not all at once! Over a few years...
>> Think Jeff Bland, says the four 'R's
> remove(allergens), rest, repair (NAG + glutamine) and replace (probiotics)yes that sounds like what I was thinking..I was doing the probiotics with yoghurt sometimes
>
> For liver I started off with Bland's ultri clear, but then went on to support individual parts of the liver - glutathione, msm for sulphation and methionine, b12, folate and betaine for methylation. Did try a liver flush with a cup of olive oil and lemon juice but was so ill for several months!
gee I thought that was the gallbladder flush(olive oil and lemon juice)...are they the same!
I'm not going to try that one after your feedback...>
> It's only recently I've worked on the immune system and found when I did, my liver improved as autoimmunity undermines the liver pathways and gut integrity. Used an immune formula called RM10 for a while which helps my liver, but it can overdrive my immune system if i take it for too long!that product looks intersting. What do you mean by overdrive?..like develop autoimmunine problems?
I used to come down with anything and have learnt to move if I can if anyone is around with sniffles(yeah neurotic<g>) as it would crash me for weeks..but since this winter..touch wood...I'm resistant to everything so far!..but then my antibody levels did shoot high too...Thanks Ray,
Jan
Posted by tealady on October 12, 2004, at 0:18:12
In reply to Re: What'dya think of leaky gut syndrome?..Ray? » tealady, posted by raybakes on October 11, 2004, at 14:19:45
>
>It's only recently I've worked on the immune system and found when I did, my liver improved as autoimmunity undermines the liver pathways and gut integrity. Used an immune formula called RM10 for a while which helps my liver, but it can overdrive my immune system if i take it for too long!Now that's what I was trying to explain to the doc!..like I know my gut is probably inflamed but I disagree as to why..like I think it's inflamed due to my high level of antibodies -autoimmunity..and perhaps I should work on my immune system?
I also suspect my liver needs a lot of help too..after that many SSRI's ..esp. serzone (ended up with raised liver enzymes on that one, down now)
I like the nac, selenium, glycine? idea and milk thistle too for liver ..so far that was as far as I got in looking at things. Haven't tried as yet.Oh yes, the chemist at the hospital reckoned my kidneys/thirst mechanism may be like that due to amitryptiptyline I took in 1990's ..cycling high doses for migraine during PMS time..didn't work either. (Only her opinion I guess, but maybe something to consider)
In those days I didn't question docs' prescriptions.Jan
Posted by raybakes on October 12, 2004, at 13:15:08
In reply to Re: What'dya think of leaky gut syndrome?..Ray? » raybakes, posted by tealady on October 11, 2004, at 23:41:14
> I'm always thirsty..trying to cut back!...hence my weak jokes about not doing osmosis too well <g>
> ..this gut detox was the docs soln to above problem..and the fact that when I tried to cut down on water untake I got extremely depressed,cold, hands went blue etc, sigh.Have you any ideas about what might be happening? Do you think there could be a mineral build up that poisons the kidneys if not flushed out? say calcium, phosphate or ammonia?
>
> Did you stay offwheat and milk permanently?..I didn't think I was allergic to milk, but when I came off it for a couple of weeks and then went back to try it again, I was so sick! So stay off it!!
> I've never shown any allergies to wheat, gluten or milk on tests either.Wheat and milk allergies do usually go hand in hand with autoimmune disease - and the more resistant we are to giving them up, is quite often a sign we're allergic to them too! You might be OK but it's certainly worth excluding them for a while..
>So what did your colic irrigation consist of?It was just three half hour sessions of warm water in the bowel, with some probiotics in the last flush - think it exacerbated my gut inflammation. A friend with mental health problems, swears by his coffee enemas though!
All the products for the bowel cleanse are good products, but I am concerned about what you say about your kidneys - can't your doc look into that further? Nowadays I like to take things gently, don't believe in healing crises - so if I feel awful with something, either it's not working or I need some additional support. I help a friend with MS - she's got so much stuff going on, but the only thing she can cope with is raising her energy. Good thing you're questioning doctors now!
>
> that product looks intersting. What do you mean by overdrive?..like develop autoimmunine problems?Yes on the one hand, it can help with infection, but on the other hand, it can raise interferon gamma too high and worsen autoimmune symptoms - I get on well with it for a month or so - there's also one called imm-kine which is easier for my system. Both worked really well on my gf's dog's cancer, until she relapsed.
Ray
Posted by raybakes on October 12, 2004, at 13:32:00
In reply to Re: What'dya think of leaky gut syndrome?..Ray? » raybakes, posted by tealady on October 12, 2004, at 0:18:12
>
> Now that's what I was trying to explain to the doc!..like I know my gut is probably inflamed but I disagree as to why..like I think it's inflamed due to my high level of antibodies -autoimmunity..and perhaps I should work on my immune system?I personally get on well with dealing with my immune system, but do know some people who've done really well supporting their gut as beneficial bowel flora can have a profound effect on the rest of the immune system - parasites, secrete immune disrupting chemicals to hide themselves from the immune system.
> I also suspect my liver needs a lot of help too..after that many SSRI's ..esp. serzone (ended up with raised liver enzymes on that one, down now)
> I like the nac, selenium, glycine? idea and milk thistle too for liver ..so far that was as far as I got in looking at things. Haven't tried as yet.
>
Naturopaths are keen on caster oil packs to help the liver - my friend likes his coffee enemas (!), there's a few doctors using high dose phosphatidyl choline, and I've also done quite well on allergy research's organic liver capsules.
Seemed to be a gentle way to get glutathione when I couldn't take NAC etc..I suppose it's just trial and error, but being confident enough to stop something when you know it isn't working - I have developed a 'feel' for things over the last few years - If I feel unwell when I hold something, it's a good indicator it will do the same inside me!
Good luck
Ray
Posted by Larry Hoover on October 12, 2004, at 13:32:43
In reply to Re: What'dya think of leaky gut syndrome?..Ray? » tealady, posted by raybakes on October 12, 2004, at 13:15:08
> > I've never shown any allergies to wheat, gluten or milk on tests either.
>
> Wheat and milk allergies do usually go hand in hand with autoimmune disease - and the more resistant we are to giving them up, is quite often a sign we're allergic to them too! You might be OK but it's certainly worth excluding them for a while..Hey. I'm just going to jump in here with a novel concept. Within the complex milk proteins and wheat proteins are sequences of amino acids which, if liberated during digestion, have opioid and hormonal acivity. There are numerous such sequences in milk proteins, including one of the better studied ones, beta-casomorphine-7. It is derived from the milk proteind casein, and as you can infer from the name, it is an endorphin-like opioid binding protein. It also directly mediates histamine release. So, it perturbs peristalsis, and inflames tissues, in the complete absence of classical allergic response mediated by immunoglobulins.
The generic term for this class of substances is exorphin. I just thought I'd put a bug in Ray's brain. ;-)
I found a paper a few years ago that described industrial milk processing techniques specifically engineered to ensure maximization of yield of exorphin sequences prior to the creation of processed cheese. I've heard people say that they crave certain "plastic" cheeses, and there may be some truth to that, via opiate-mediated addiction.
Wheat has similar sequences. Wheat and milk intolerance can be due to processes entirely distinct from allergy. Individual sensitivity to these substances varies substantially, and can change over time. Once sensitized, it is possible that such sensitization is permanent. Ray, this might explain your rechallenge experience, with substantially exacerbated symptoms on re-exposure.
Lar
Posted by raybakes on October 13, 2004, at 10:39:53
In reply to Re: exorphins » raybakes, posted by Larry Hoover on October 12, 2004, at 13:32:43
> Hey. I'm just going to jump in here with a novel concept. Within the complex milk proteins and wheat proteins are sequences of amino acids which, if liberated during digestion, have opioid and hormonal acivity. There are numerous such sequences in milk proteins, including one of the better studied ones, beta-casomorphine-7. It is derived from the milk proteind casein, and as you can infer from the name, it is an endorphin-like opioid binding protein. It also directly mediates histamine release. So, it perturbs peristalsis, and inflames tissues, in the complete absence of classical allergic response mediated by immunoglobulins.
>
> The generic term for this class of substances is exorphin. I just thought I'd put a bug in Ray's brain. ;-)
>
> I found a paper a few years ago that described industrial milk processing techniques specifically engineered to ensure maximization of yield of exorphin sequences prior to the creation of processed cheese. I've heard people say that they crave certain "plastic" cheeses, and there may be some truth to that, via opiate-mediated addiction.
>
> Wheat has similar sequences. Wheat and milk intolerance can be due to processes entirely distinct from allergy. Individual sensitivity to these substances varies substantially, and can change over time. Once sensitized, it is possible that such sensitization is permanent. Ray, this might explain your rechallenge experience, with substantially exacerbated symptoms on re-exposure.
Thanks Lar, think it is quite possible that that may apply to me as I do really well on the enzyme DPP IV, developed for autistic children with wheat and milk intolerance - I'm not sure if DPP IV separates the gluten and casein away from the exorphin, or whether the DPP IV just replaces the child's own DPP IV bound by gluten and casein? Interestingly, mercury also binds DPP IV.....
and thanks for the bug too! :)Ray
Posted by johnj on October 13, 2004, at 12:28:39
In reply to Re: exorphins » raybakes, posted by Larry Hoover on October 12, 2004, at 13:32:43
How are you Larry?
Posted by Larry Hoover on October 13, 2004, at 17:01:41
In reply to Re: exorphins » Larry Hoover, posted by johnj on October 13, 2004, at 12:28:39
> How are you Larry?
Poking my head out of the hole I fell into. Just taking my time crawling all the way out. No point in pushing things. Thanks for asking.
Selegiline is working very well to stabilize my brain. Unfortunately, as with everything else that has ever helped my mood, it messes with my already poor sleep.
How you doing, dude?
Lar
Posted by johnj on October 13, 2004, at 17:33:04
In reply to Re: exorphins » johnj, posted by Larry Hoover on October 13, 2004, at 17:01:41
Lar,
Keep striving to crawl out as I am doing the same. It seems you and I struggle with sleep so much.
Are you still on the zoloft? How is that going?
I recently have seen a doctor and it seems I have hypoglycemia. It does make sense since I was getting so light headed after eating a couple pieces of fruit. The biggest concern I have is trying to eat a carb to push tryptophan across the BBB. Have you ever read "Potatoes not Prozac". The title is self explanatory. But I don't know if the single carb like a potatoe will cause a blood sugar drop.
I still think the pnuemonia "changed" how my body reacts to foods, especially sugars. I was always sugar sensitive but really started having trouble after my illness. Maybe it is a dumb theory but all indications point to that.
Here is to a sweet slumber for the both of us tonight. Good to see you posting. I miss your compassion and knowledge. Talk with you soon.
johnny J
Posted by JLx on October 16, 2004, at 16:17:02
In reply to Re: What'dya think of leaky gut syndrome?..Ray? » raybakes, posted by tealady on October 12, 2004, at 0:18:12
This is the best article I've read on Leaky Gut Syndrome. http://www.drkaslow.com/html/leaky_gut.html Dr. Kaslow apparently is a board certified internist and allergist.
"What started as a gut barrier problem can escalate into a problem of tissue toxicity. When the tissue environment is compromised microbes grow, lymphatics swell, symptoms of inflammation or deposition occur. Over a period of time, the muscles and joints ache, the brain gets a little foggy, the energy production and the body temperature drops, etc. The result can be conditions like fibromyalgia, arthritis, chronic fatigue, genetic mutations and potentially cancer.
The immune system is also stressed. As toxins and foods contact the mucosa, the immune system is activated to neutralize them from entering the body. Normally, much of this work would have been done by beneficial bacteria. With leaky gut more toxins make it to the mucosa where they will be tagged with secretory IgA (sIgA), which attracts macrophages and other white blood cells to neutralize the toxins. Of course if there are too many toxins or undigested, this immune response is overwhelmed and not only do some toxins and allergens enter the body but the immune system is depleted.
A second stress on the immune system with a leaky gut is when the liver and lymphatic system become overwhelmed and as a result, the immune system serves as an overflow.
As more microbes (viruses, bacteria, and fungi) multiply in an unhealthy GI environment, the immune system is unable to keep the microbes in check. As a result opportunistic infections take advantage of a weakened immune system.
The most important organ in resistance to infection is the adrenal gland. Leaky Gut Syndrome slowly diminishes adrenal function. In the early and middle stages, there is actually an adrenal excess, as measured by excess cortisol output. Eventually, cortisol levels drop and exhaustion develops.
Confirming the Diagnosis: Laboratory tests can help confirm and gauge various aspects of Leaky Gut including Candida levels, digestive function, food allergies, etc. Many of the tests are expensive, inconclusive, and not always even accurate. It should be assumed that there are food allergies. If any food allergy is allowed to persist, the intestinal wall will remain inflamed and toxic absorption will continue. Before even considering testing, avoid dairy (cow’s milk, cheese, cottage cheese, yogurt, ice cream) and gluten grains (wheat, rye, oats, spelt, barley). Other relatively common food allergens include eggs; corn (including popcorn, corn syrup, corn oil); and beans (especially soy, lentil and kidney; soy includes tofu, miso, and tamari). Less commonly almonds, peanuts, and garlic are allergenic. Be careful of these ingredients in packaged foods or foods prepared in restaurants."
He didn't say if you can ever add those foods back in.
> >It's only recently I've worked on the immune system and found when I did, my liver improved as autoimmunity undermines the liver pathways and gut integrity. Used an immune formula called RM10 for a while which helps my liver, but it can overdrive my immune system if i take it for too long!
>
> Now that's what I was trying to explain to the doc!..like I know my gut is probably inflamed but I disagree as to why..like I think it's inflamed due to my high level of antibodies -autoimmunity..and perhaps I should work on my immune system?
> I also suspect my liver needs a lot of help too..after that many SSRI's ..esp. serzone (ended up with raised liver enzymes on that one, down now)
> I like the nac, selenium, glycine? idea and milk thistle too for liver ..so far that was as far as I got in looking at things. Haven't tried as yet.
>
> Oh yes, the chemist at the hospital reckoned my kidneys/thirst mechanism may be like that due to amitryptiptyline I took in 1990's ..cycling high doses for migraine during PMS time..didn't work either. (Only her opinion I guess, but maybe something to consider)
> In those days I didn't question docs' prescriptions.
>
> Jan
>
>
Posted by JLx on October 16, 2004, at 16:25:49
In reply to Re: What'dya think of leaky gut syndrome?..Ray?, posted by JLx on October 16, 2004, at 16:17:02
Posted by tealady on October 16, 2004, at 19:34:36
In reply to Leaky Gut - previous post was for tealady (nm), posted by JLx on October 16, 2004, at 16:25:49
Hi again,
more on glutamineMy understanding is that most of our digestive track is lined with endothelial Cells which
mucus (mucous) membrane. They line the respiratory, digestive, urinary, and reproductive tracts; serves as a barrier against infection and, in the digestive tract, moistens food, making it easier to swallow etc.In the bladder this protective mucous lining is called the glycosaminoglycans (GAG) layer.(hence Larrian who was a gyno-urologist refers to a GAG layer).
http://www.orthowomenshealth.com/bladder/normvsic.htmlhttp://arbl.cvmbs.colostate.edu/hbooks/pathphys/digestion/stomach/gibarrier.html The Gastrointestinal Barrier
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20030823/msgs/253549.html
(lots of links to follow, especially those on thyroid forum... saves me retyping)
more on l-glutamine
http://forums.about.com/ab-thyroid/messages?msg=56556.2( and rest of thread)
I didn't try it a I am sensitive to MSG .
and I think also glutamine....glutamate...???More later, Jan
Posted by tealady on October 16, 2004, at 19:43:01
In reply to Leaky Gut - previous post was for tealady (nm), posted by JLx on October 16, 2004, at 16:25:49
My main concern is the the dumb bowel cleanse. I've been reading on it.
Some of them are in the "What the..." category <g>
and some people actually get addicted to them? wow!!I just don't want to do anything that'll destroy the mucous membrane!..they talk about sloughing it off the plaque with the chemical mix..
the mixes you drink orally include the ones below I've found so far..
like I'm not taking aspartame or saccarahine and orage coloring etc.
I'm concerned about their effect on the mucus membrane?
And I really don't like the other type---------------------------
A study of the effect of Picolax on body weight, cardiovascular variables and haemoglobin concentration.http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=1416702&dopt=Abstract
Barker P, Trotter T, Hanning C.University Department of Anaesthetics, Leicester General Hospital.
This study compared the effect of Picolax when administered for large bowel preparation in combination with preoperative fasting on body weight, haemoglobin concentration, haematocrit, and cardiovascular variables with matched subjects who were fasted before surgery. Picolax resulted in significantly greater weight loss, increases in haemoglobin concentration combined with cardiovascular changes suggesting hypovolaemia in the Picolax group. Intravenous fluid replacement is recommended in patients receiving Picolax.
--------------------------------
Picolax ingredients
Picosulfate 10ng
MgO 3.5G
ciric acid 12g
potassium bicarbonate
Saccharin + ORANGE COLORING, FLavouring
---------------------------------------
Picoprep ingredients
Picosulfate 10ng
MgO 3.5G
citric acid 12g
36mg aspartame per sachet
------------------------------http://www.pjonline.com/Editorial/20000610/clinical/phosphateenema.html
Phosphate enema better than Picolax for bowel preparation, study finds
A single, self-administered phosphate enema is a more acceptable and more effective method of preparing the bowel for flexible sigmoidoscopy than oral Picolax, a study has found.Endoscopists assessed the quality of bowel preparation as excellent for 57 per cent of the enema group and 39 per cent of the Picolax group.
Mean visibility of the mucosa was also better with the enema, the researchers say
------------------------Kleen _Prep the worst
Kleen-Prep failed to achieve adequate preparation in 46%, due to excess fluid and POOR MUCOUSAL COATING. Kleen-Prep caused more patient nausea, abdominal bloating and pain than Picolax.
-----
Like you don't want to take anything that strips too well..like a strong sugar soap for your gut!Any ideas?
Jan (yeah, a worry guts)
Posted by JLx on October 16, 2004, at 21:13:58
In reply to Bowel Cleanse?? anyone? » JLx, posted by tealady on October 16, 2004, at 19:43:01
> Like you don't want to take anything that strips too well..like a strong sugar soap for your gut!
>
> Any ideas?
> Jan (yeah, a worry guts)
Yeah, my idea is skip the bowel cleanse. :) Dr. Kaslow doesn't say anything about it and it makes sense to me that it would be better to let the bowel clean itself. I've read a number of articles on LGS and don't recall seeing a bowel cleanse recommended. I can even see why it might be contraindicated if there's already inflammation and irritation.Those links you posted looked to me like what you take before a procedure. They want it all cleaned out so they can see.
JL
Posted by tealady on October 16, 2004, at 21:37:16
In reply to Re: Bowel Cleanse?? anyone? » tealady, posted by JLx on October 16, 2004, at 21:13:58
yeah but my docs list of what to do says
Take PICOPREP (from pharmacy) 2 sachets in 1L of water..drink over 1 hr..the gastroyle or Endura to replace ...and he told me I could use like couple of spoons of Magnesium sulfate in water..???
thanks, I'm leaning towards skipping it.
Most alternative sites mentions sloughing off the plaque buildup..but I'm not sure that occurs anyway?I figured from another site doing a google on "bowel cleanse" that I have to stop iron 4 days before..now that make sense, as iron constipates for about 3 days..and stops the usual motions.
I'm tempted just to take a timy bit of magnesium sulfate and forget everything else..or perhaps just 1/4 sachet of picoprep?..sighJan
Posted by tealady on October 16, 2004, at 22:05:01
In reply to Re: Bowel Cleanse?? anyone? » tealady, posted by JLx on October 16, 2004, at 21:13:58
Hmm this sounds OK
http://www.altcancer.com/omega_lb.htm
What's in It: Each bottle contains 120 Capsules (double-"o's"), of about 750 ml. each. The formula is traditional and well-established. Pro-rated to this product it breaks down as barberry bark (75 mg.), cascara sagrada (150 mg.), capsicum (75 mg.), ginger root (75 mg.), lobelia (75 mg.), red raspberry leaves (75 mg.), turkey rhubarb (75 mg.), fennel (75 mg.), and goldenseal root (75 mg.).
followed by some roughage ..they suggest psyllium huskor perhaps just forget it and just take some MAGNESIUM? maybe
Milk of Magnesia ( Magnesium Hydroxide) with maybe a pinch of epsom salts (magnesium sulfate?)in a litre of water and then some replacement salts?Is Mag hydroxide the best type of magnesium for this?
Jan
Posted by JLx on October 17, 2004, at 14:55:21
In reply to Re: Bowel Cleanse?? anyone? » JLx, posted by tealady on October 16, 2004, at 22:05:01
> Hmm this sounds OK
>
> http://www.altcancer.com/omega_lb.htm
> What's in It: Each bottle contains 120 Capsules (double-"o's"), of about 750 ml. each. The formula is traditional and well-established. Pro-rated to this product it breaks down as barberry bark (75 mg.), cascara sagrada (150 mg.), capsicum (75 mg.), ginger root (75 mg.), lobelia (75 mg.), red raspberry leaves (75 mg.), turkey rhubarb (75 mg.), fennel (75 mg.), and goldenseal root (75 mg.).
> followed by some roughage ..they suggest psyllium husk
>
> or perhaps just forget it and just take some MAGNESIUM? maybe
> Milk of Magnesia ( Magnesium Hydroxide) with maybe a pinch of epsom salts (magnesium sulfate?)in a litre of water and then some replacement salts?
>
> Is Mag hydroxide the best type of magnesium for this?
>
> JanI've never used magnesium for this purpose so I couldn't say. I know that liquid magnesium citrate is something I've seen also as a laxative.
I guess I don't get why it might be necessary. In the absence of constipation, the bowel is cleaned out by normal bowel movements the same way it would be by a laxative but without the irritation.
You could ask the folks on the Curezone. Ever been there? They seem very into all sorts of bowel cleansing and flushes of all sorts. <g>
JL
Posted by Larry Hoover on October 30, 2004, at 13:20:48
In reply to What'dya think of leaky gut syndrome?..Ray?, posted by tealady on October 11, 2004, at 9:11:23
> On my first vist (I had to get a few scripts for thyroid meds etc) he "tested" me for leaky gut syndrome.
> I can't find this test by googling on the net.
>
> It involved
>
> ferric chloride
> HCl hydrochoric acid
> choloform (anesthetic I guess)
>
> add urine sample
>
> if bubbles and cloudy..supposed to mean you have leaky gut syndrome....?Jan, this test is meaningless. All it means is that there was something oxidizable in your urine. I looked a long time before I came to that conclusion.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on October 30, 2004, at 13:31:25
In reply to Bowel Cleanse?? anyone? » JLx, posted by tealady on October 16, 2004, at 19:43:01
> My main concern is the the dumb bowel cleanse. I've been reading on it.
> Some of them are in the "What the..." category <g>
> and some people actually get addicted to them? wow!!
>
> I just don't want to do anything that'll destroy the mucous membrane!..they talk about sloughing it off the plaque with the chemical mix..If you can find anything in a pathology textbook, or one from general surgery, I'll start to believe in deposits forming in the intestines.
Those products you mentioned cause severe osmolic stress, flushing huge amounts of electrolytes into the bowel and down the toilet. Phosphate-buffered magnesium sulphate and similar compounds simply draw so much fluid into the gut that you have no choice but to expell all the contents of the gut. I can see no health benefits accruing from the use of these sorts of products.
Lar
Posted by raybakes on November 4, 2004, at 2:40:49
In reply to Re: Bowel Cleanse?? anyone? » tealady, posted by Larry Hoover on October 30, 2004, at 13:31:25
> > My main concern is the the dumb bowel cleanse. I've been reading on it.
> > Some of them are in the "What the..." category <g>
> > and some people actually get addicted to them? wow!!
> >
> > I just don't want to do anything that'll destroy the mucous membrane!..they talk about sloughing it off the plaque with the chemical mix..
>
> If you can find anything in a pathology textbook, or one from general surgery, I'll start to believe in deposits forming in the intestines.
>
> Those products you mentioned cause severe osmolic stress, flushing huge amounts of electrolytes into the bowel and down the toilet. Phosphate-buffered magnesium sulphate and similar compounds simply draw so much fluid into the gut that you have no choice but to expell all the contents of the gut. I can see no health benefits accruing from the use of these sorts of products.
>
> Lar
A lot of alternative practitioners talk of a healing crisis, but I think that's just justifying agressive, shoddy protocols. A couple of years ago I spoke to a guy who's liver failed a few weeks after his olive oil/lemon juice/epsom salt/apple juice cleanse - he was certain his liver failure was purely coincidence, but I wasn't convinced!Ray
Posted by Larry Hoover on November 4, 2004, at 10:11:26
In reply to Re: Bowel Cleanse?? anyone? » Larry Hoover, posted by raybakes on November 4, 2004, at 2:40:49
> A lot of alternative practitioners talk of a healing crisis, but I think that's just justifying agressive, shoddy protocols. A couple of years ago I spoke to a guy who's liver failed a few weeks after his olive oil/lemon juice/epsom salt/apple juice cleanse - he was certain his liver failure was purely coincidence, but I wasn't convinced!
>
> RayHe thought it was all the toxins he'd mobilized via the cleanse, right? There are some very dangerous practises masquerading as treatment....high colonics, various enemas, purges/cleanses....
One of the few that has actually got demonstrable benefit is fasting. And I can't remember what that benefit is, off the cuff.
Lar
Posted by tealady on November 19, 2004, at 15:07:47
In reply to Re: Bowel Cleanse?? anyone? » tealady, posted by Larry Hoover on October 30, 2004, at 13:31:25
This is the end of the thread.
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