![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 36. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by jujube on September 23, 2004, at 21:45:21
Has anybody tried Rosavin (Rhodiola rosea) with a SSRI? Is it safe to combine the two? Is it really effective? I have read a lot of good things about Rhodiola, would like to try it with the SSRI I am on. Anything anyone can tell me would be greatly appreciated. Thanks so much.
Posted by karaS on September 23, 2004, at 22:09:59
In reply to Looking for answers - Rosavin (Rhodiola rosea), posted by jujube on September 23, 2004, at 21:45:21
> Has anybody tried Rosavin (Rhodiola rosea) with a SSRI? Is it safe to combine the two? Is it really effective? I have read a lot of good things about Rhodiola, would like to try it with the SSRI I am on. Anything anyone can tell me would be greatly appreciated. Thanks so much.
I don't know much about combining it with an SSRI. Dr. Richard Brown has a book out now on Rhodiola and you may be able to find articles on line useing his name in the search. He probably would mention whether they can be combined.I tried Rhodiola but was very disappointed. It made me really groggy and brain-dead. It was so hard to concentrate after about 3 or 4 days on it. I think that might have to do with hypersensitive dopamine (and norepinephrine?) autoreceptors on my part though. (I respond to most stimulants with sleepiness and grogginess.)
It's like a lot of other things - some people have had amazing experiences with it and others haven't.
Good luck!
-K
Posted by jujube on September 24, 2004, at 7:33:43
In reply to Re: Looking for answers - Rosavin (Rhodiola rosea) » jujube, posted by karaS on September 23, 2004, at 22:09:59
> > Has anybody tried Rosavin (Rhodiola rosea) with a SSRI? Is it safe to combine the two? Is it really effective? I have read a lot of good things about Rhodiola, would like to try it with the SSRI I am on. Anything anyone can tell me would be greatly appreciated. Thanks so much.
>
>
> I don't know much about combining it with an SSRI. Dr. Richard Brown has a book out now on Rhodiola and you may be able to find articles on line useing his name in the search. He probably would mention whether they can be combined.
>
> I tried Rhodiola but was very disappointed. It made me really groggy and brain-dead. It was so hard to concentrate after about 3 or 4 days on it. I think that might have to do with hypersensitive dopamine (and norepinephrine?) autoreceptors on my part though. (I respond to most stimulants with sleepiness and grogginess.)
>
> It's like a lot of other things - some people have had amazing experiences with it and others haven't.
>
> Good luck!
>
> -KThanks for the response. I hope you don't mind if I ask you a couple of more questions (I have noticed in reviewing the threads on the Alternatives board that you are quite knowledgeable about alternative/natural approaches).
Ccurrently I only use B-Complex (100 mg daily), magnesium (250 mg, twice daily), vitamin C (500 mg, twice daily), Nu-Greens and MACA (just added this to try and combat the horrible side effects I am having from my first (and yes, my only) Depo Provera shot. I am just recovering my iron deficincy that left me exhausted and apathetic. I find that when I recover from a physical illness, I seem to end up being very anxious and apprehensive (thank God I only get really sick about once every 7 or 8 years or so). Anyways, are there any supplements that you would recommend (i.e. amino acids or an amino blend) to help me get back on my feet and to particularly address the lack of motivation and anxiety (I did try L-Tyrosine, but after two weeks, I felt like I was going to spin out of control - a little too wired, even when I reduced the dose)? Thanks and sorry for the long message.
Tamara
Posted by karaS on September 25, 2004, at 20:08:39
In reply to Re: Looking for answers - Rosavin (Rhodiola rosea) » karaS, posted by jujube on September 24, 2004, at 7:33:43
> > > Has anybody tried Rosavin (Rhodiola rosea) with a SSRI? Is it safe to combine the two? Is it really effective? I have read a lot of good things about Rhodiola, would like to try it with the SSRI I am on. Anything anyone can tell me would be greatly appreciated. Thanks so much.
> >
> >
> > I don't know much about combining it with an SSRI. Dr. Richard Brown has a book out now on Rhodiola and you may be able to find articles on line useing his name in the search. He probably would mention whether they can be combined.
> >
> > I tried Rhodiola but was very disappointed. It made me really groggy and brain-dead. It was so hard to concentrate after about 3 or 4 days on it. I think that might have to do with hypersensitive dopamine (and norepinephrine?) autoreceptors on my part though. (I respond to most stimulants with sleepiness and grogginess.)
> >
> > It's like a lot of other things - some people have had amazing experiences with it and others haven't.
> >
> > Good luck!
> >
> > -K
>
> Thanks for the response. I hope you don't mind if I ask you a couple of more questions (I have noticed in reviewing the threads on the Alternatives board that you are quite knowledgeable about alternative/natural approaches).
>
> Ccurrently I only use B-Complex (100 mg daily), magnesium (250 mg, twice daily), vitamin C (500 mg, twice daily), Nu-Greens and MACA (just added this to try and combat the horrible side effects I am having from my first (and yes, my only) Depo Provera shot. I am just recovering my iron deficincy that left me exhausted and apathetic. I find that when I recover from a physical illness, I seem to end up being very anxious and apprehensive (thank God I only get really sick about once every 7 or 8 years or so). Anyways, are there any supplements that you would recommend (i.e. amino acids or an amino blend) to help me get back on my feet and to particularly address the lack of motivation and anxiety (I did try L-Tyrosine, but after two weeks, I felt like I was going to spin out of control - a little too wired, even when I reduced the dose)? Thanks and sorry for the long message.
>
> TamaraHi Tamara,
Hmmmm, that's a tough one! Often the things that help with motivation are the stimulating ones that can provoke anxiety. You will probably need to take different things to address both the motivation and the anxiety problems.
I think there are several people who know a lot more than I do about alternative treatments but I have been looking into it a lot lately. Anyway, these other people may help to add more information or clarification.
One thing that is supposed to be helpful for anxiety while being energizing and helping with concentration is Picamilon. Have you tried that yet? (There is a product called Phenibut which may also fit the bill. I don't know much about this one though.) Picamilon is probably not something you could take all of the time. I think you have to take breaks from it or it stops working for you.
I am still trying to find things that are motivating for me. Low dose selegiline with l-phenylalanine (or DLPA) is helpful for many people though it does increase anxiety. Did you read Nemesis' thread above about selegiline? I believe he or she took it despite the anxiety issue and may be treating the anxiety separately.
Have you tried Siberian Gingseng for overall health and energy?
What about SAM-e or TMG with B12? These can also be quite energizing and anti-depressant?
Enada NADH is also fairly dopaminergic and therefore, motivating. It's also expensive and you can't take it all of the time because it can stop working as well. According to Larry, NADH is synergistic with TMG.
You have to be careful with many of these stimulating things because, aside from the anxiety provoking potential, too much of them can cause irritability.
One thing that I have read in a couple of places that is supposed to be quite motivating is the nootropic Pramiracetam. That's just about impossible to find right now though there is a legal supplements site in the States that may be offering it soon.
It might be worth looking into l-theanine, taurine, GABA and Valerian for anti-anxiety.Of course there is no guarantee that any particular supplement will work for any particular person. But you can do some more research and experiment with them yourself.
I feel a bit reticent to give advice since I haven't solved my own problem with motivation yet but at least I could mention some avenues worth exploring.
Take care,
Kara
P.S. Yours wasn't a long message at all!
Posted by jujube on September 26, 2004, at 7:53:28
In reply to Re: Looking for answers - Rosavin (Rhodiola rosea) » jujube, posted by karaS on September 25, 2004, at 20:08:39
Wow! Thanks Kara. You really went above and beyond with all your thoughtful suggestions. I am taking extra B-12 (just started). I continue to take my iron supplements since I have been suffering from iron deficiency for months and months before it was actually detected and treated (it is still low, but almost in the normal range now). I will do research on your other suggestions.
I am so confused right now. I have never been an apathetic and unmotivated person. Anxiety has been a constant companion of mine for many years, but certainly not to the degree that I am experiencing now (the anxiety and low mood seem to have escalated after the Depo Provera shot). What I am struggling with is whether anxiety is causing the apathy and lack of motivation (I've seen people refer to it as adhedonia) or is the adhedonia causing the anxiety? Kind of like the chicken and egg theory, can anyone really figure it out. All I know is that when I think about going out and doing things, I get hit with this feeling of extreme fatigue. No heart palps, no sweaty palms, no breathing problems, etc. Makes me think that perhaps the adhedonia is causing the anxiety, if that makes any sense at all.
Anyways, thanks so much for your response and all the suggestions. I am frustrated and beginning to dislike myself because of the way I am feeling. Even when I have been in the throws of my worst PMS, I never felt like this. I just have to keep telling myself that this too shall pass.
Thanks again Kara, and take good care.
Tamara
Posted by JLx on September 26, 2004, at 9:18:44
In reply to Re: Looking for answers - Rosavin (Rhodiola rosea) » karaS, posted by jujube on September 26, 2004, at 7:53:28
Hi Tamara,
I struggle with lack of motivation/functioning and anxiety too. Larry usually recommends niacinamide for anxiety. You might want to search for that on here, but I believe the dose is 500 mg three times day. I think you can go up to 2,000 a day safely. I've taken niacinamide and noticed a quick (albeit mild) relaxing effect.
You said you were taking 250 mg of magnesium a day. Is it a well absorbable kind, such as mg glycinate, taurate, malate or citrate? Magnesium is probably the biggest "anti stress" nutrient I've run across. After I started taking it I found some other things like tyrosine working differently. I also find that if something makes me irritable like TMG, magnesium counteracts.
Otoh, for some people, calcium is the calming mineral. If you're not taking some, or eating calcium foods, you might want to try adding a bit of that. The calcium/magnesium ratio is pretty important though so keep in mind that too much of one might require a bit more of the other; which is which depends on your body. If you've had PMS in the past, this might indicate a need for more magnesium. Perhaps even more than 500 mg a day, at least until you reach a replenishment saturation point if you were low. I found that when I first started taking magnesiun after being very calcium dominant in my diet for a long time, that I benefited from a lot of magnesium glycinate. Now I can take less with the same good effect and sometimes add a bit of calcium too.
I notice in another post that you also said you take "Omega 3, 6, 9". It's my understanding that most people eating a typical Western diet, don't need any more Omega 6, and what we made need for depression is a lot more Omega-3. I slacked off on taking fish oil and I now regret it as I think it was helping more than I realized.
Also, just as an aside, in my only experience with Celexa I thought it was helping somewhat but I quit it because I felt so squirrelly. I didn't even realize how "off" I was even, until someone else said something to me. I don't mean to sound discouraging, as your experince might be completely different, but I think sometimes the side effects of these drugs are next to impossible to counteract.
Have you seen this site on Depo Provera, btw? http://www.abcinternetmarketing.com/depo-provera/horrorstories.html Sounds like a lot of people are having the same "I wasn't this bad before" problems with anxiety, apathy, motivation, etc.
JL
Posted by jujube on September 26, 2004, at 10:11:07
In reply to Re: Looking for answers - Rosavin (Rhodiola rosea) » jujube, posted by JLx on September 26, 2004, at 9:18:44
Thanks so much for the response. I had actually been using Omega 3 for awhile (about 2 - 3 months) and didn't really notice any difference. I do take 200 mg of niacinimide as part of a B-Complex. The magnesium I am taking is magnesium oxide. Since I was really very iron deficient, my symptoms were more a result of that. But now my iron is up to almost the low end of the normal range. And, I was feeling my energy returning after a 10 week round of iron injections. There was still a feeling of apathy and a lack of motivation (which I attribute to the Effexor). Then I got the Depo shot, and everything went downhill from there. I was on Effexor at the time, and had been noticing that I was experiencing feelings of apprehension like I had never experienced before. The Depo shot just heightened the feeling, and that's when I knew for sure that Effexor really wasn't, and had not been, doing anything for my anxiety. It's so frustrating. I will continue my quest to get myself back on track and feeling like I did before the iron deficiency, the Effexor and the Depo shot. By the way, when I started getting sick after the Depo shot, I started doing research and came across the site you indicated as well as others. It is astounding how many women have suffered on that drug. I learned that it is used in the prison system on sex offenders and pedeophiles. Nice eh?
Thanks again for taking the time to respond. Much appreciated.Tamara
> Hi Tamara,
>
> I struggle with lack of motivation/functioning and anxiety too. Larry usually recommends niacinamide for anxiety. You might want to search for that on here, but I believe the dose is 500 mg three times day. I think you can go up to 2,000 a day safely. I've taken niacinamide and noticed a quick (albeit mild) relaxing effect.
>
> You said you were taking 250 mg of magnesium a day. Is it a well absorbable kind, such as mg glycinate, taurate, malate or citrate? Magnesium is probably the biggest "anti stress" nutrient I've run across. After I started taking it I found some other things like tyrosine working differently. I also find that if something makes me irritable like TMG, magnesium counteracts.
>
> Otoh, for some people, calcium is the calming mineral. If you're not taking some, or eating calcium foods, you might want to try adding a bit of that. The calcium/magnesium ratio is pretty important though so keep in mind that too much of one might require a bit more of the other; which is which depends on your body. If you've had PMS in the past, this might indicate a need for more magnesium. Perhaps even more than 500 mg a day, at least until you reach a replenishment saturation point if you were low. I found that when I first started taking magnesiun after being very calcium dominant in my diet for a long time, that I benefited from a lot of magnesium glycinate. Now I can take less with the same good effect and sometimes add a bit of calcium too.
>
> I notice in another post that you also said you take "Omega 3, 6, 9". It's my understanding that most people eating a typical Western diet, don't need any more Omega 6, and what we made need for depression is a lot more Omega-3. I slacked off on taking fish oil and I now regret it as I think it was helping more than I realized.
>
> Also, just as an aside, in my only experience with Celexa I thought it was helping somewhat but I quit it because I felt so squirrelly. I didn't even realize how "off" I was even, until someone else said something to me. I don't mean to sound discouraging, as your experince might be completely different, but I think sometimes the side effects of these drugs are next to impossible to counteract.
>
> Have you seen this site on Depo Provera, btw? http://www.abcinternetmarketing.com/depo-provera/horrorstories.html Sounds like a lot of people are having the same "I wasn't this bad before" problems with anxiety, apathy, motivation, etc.
>
> JL
>
>
Posted by JLx on September 26, 2004, at 12:06:43
In reply to Re: Looking for answers - Rosavin (Rhodiola rosea) » JLx, posted by jujube on September 26, 2004, at 10:11:07
> The magnesium I am taking is magnesium oxide.
I would definitely get another kind of magnesium. See this post: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20030306/msgs/207021.html
Magnesium aspartate, and magnesium glutamate are contraindicated with depression, btw. Mg glycinate and mg taurate are probably the most calming because of the amino acids they're chelated with. Mg citrate is good, but I found it to be one of the more diarrhea-inducing types, as opposed to mg malate, which I like better, but maybe that's just me.
> By the way, when I started getting sick after the Depo shot, I started doing research and came across the site you indicated as well as others. It is astounding how many women have suffered on that drug.
It's not surprising considering it's just synthetic progesterone. Did you find ideas about what might counteract the effects? I took some progesterone, after all the hype about it, but it was the wrong thing for my body type. At least I could just discontinue it and feel better. You are stuck for 3 months or longer.
> I learned that it is used in the prison system on sex offenders and pedeophiles. Nice eh?
I have never heard anything good about it actually, especially in the feminist press.
JL
Posted by karaS on September 26, 2004, at 18:31:46
In reply to Re: Looking for answers - Rosavin (Rhodiola rosea) » karaS, posted by jujube on September 26, 2004, at 7:53:28
> Wow! Thanks Kara. You really went above and beyond with all your thoughtful suggestions. I am taking extra B-12 (just started). I continue to take my iron supplements since I have been suffering from iron deficiency for months and months before it was actually detected and treated (it is still low, but almost in the normal range now). I will do research on your other suggestions.
>Sounds like a good plan. Just don't try to add to many things at once as you won't end up knowing what is causing what symptoms and which ones are helping.
Also, I wanted to say that I agree with everything that JLx said to you. After quite a bit of experimentation, research and reading other people's posts, I'm starting to think that the omegas and magnesium are two of the most important supplements there are. Also, don't give up on things too quickly. Sometimes supplements can take a long time to work. Larry Hoover mentioned in a previous post that the full extent of fish oil supplementation isn't always seen until 8 months of consistent usage.
> I am so confused right now. I have never been an apathetic and unmotivated person. Anxiety has been a constant companion of mine for many years, but certainly not to the degree that I am experiencing now (the anxiety and low mood seem to have escalated after the Depo Provera shot).Can I ask why you got the Depo Provera shot? What was it used to treat?
I have had anxiety problems most of my adult life as well but the last 4 years I've been mostly lethargic (until the last couple of weeks that is). It's called anergic or atypical depression. Neither version of depression is much fun.
What I am struggling with is whether anxiety is causing the apathy and lack of motivation (I've seen people refer to it as adhedonia) or is the adhedonia causing the anxiety?
Actually, anhedonia is when you can't find any joy in anything. Anergia is when you have no motivation. You can have both of them at the same time of course. So hard to know what's causing what as you say.
Kind of like the chicken and egg theory, can anyone really figure it out. All I know is that when I think about going out and doing things, I get hit with this feeling of extreme fatigue. No heart palps, no sweaty palms, no breathing problems, etc. Makes me think that perhaps the adhedonia is causing the anxiety, if that makes any sense at all.
Have you looked into adrenal fatigue at all?
Another thing to think about is the effect that SSRI's can have on people. One of their long-term side effects can be that flat emotional feeling with no motivation (because the extra serotonin ends up depressing dopamine - that's crudely put and I'm sure that others may correct my terminology but essentially that's what can happen.) There are other medications and/or supplements that can be added to SSRIs to work against this. Wellbutrin is often used in this way.
> Anyways, thanks so much for your response and all the suggestions. I am frustrated and beginning to dislike myself because of the way I am feeling. Even when I have been in the throws of my worst PMS, I never felt like this. I just have to keep telling myself that this too shall pass.I know exactly what you're talking about!!!! It may be a bit of a process to find things that work for you and it can require a lot of patience but there are lots of people on these boards who have managed to fix these problems and get their lives back on track. Try to remember that when things seem really bad.
Also, I wanted to add that I think you can combine medications with supplements. I think you just have to be very careful and smart about it - as you seem to be. You just need to do a lot of research, discuss it with people who know a lot more about it (meaning those who know a lot about supplements AND medications - like Larry) and take it slowly.
>
> Thanks again Kara, and take good care.
>
>
> TamaraHang in there, you'll figure this all out in time!
Kara
Posted by jujube on September 26, 2004, at 18:50:13
In reply to Re: Looking for answers - Rosavin (Rhodiola rosea) » jujube, posted by karaS on September 26, 2004, at 18:31:46
Thanks again Kara for the response. In response to your question, I ended up being put on Depo because my cycle started becoming irregular over the past 8 months (every 2 - 3 weeks). It was really taking a toll on me, particularly with the iron deficiency. My gp had done a FSH test about 5 months ago to see if I was perimenopausal (I am 42 and a smoker). The result was negative. When the irregularities continued, she referred me to a gyno. He didn't redo the test or check anything else, although he did order a pelvic ultrasound which took place a few weeks after the shot. He suggested Depo because I smoke. I usually prefer to know a bit more about a drug that I am being given (I have had bad reactions to cough medicine), but in this case, I was simply told that it may cause some weight gain and cessation of periods. When I started feeling really ill a about 1 - 2 weeks after the shot, I did some research. What I found out is that Depo can be a very nasty drug for a lot of women. I won't be getting a second shot.
I think I have made my decisions about my natural supplements. I will stick with the B-Complex and extra B-12, vitamin C (500 mg, twice a day), magnesium (250 mg, twice a day). Continue the MACA (hopefully to offset the Depo shot). And, I will look at adding Picamilon or blueberry leaf extract for anxiety. At this time I am going to stay away from the Rhodiola. I re-visited the the literature I had received about the product, and it said that although it is not a MAO inhibitor, it works on balancing MAO. I am now a little nervous about adding it because I had read that MAOIs should not be mixed with SSRIs. I don't want to take any chances.
Thanks again. Hopefully we'll have a chance to chat again soon. Have a good evening.
Tamara
Posted by karaS on September 26, 2004, at 19:17:22
In reply to Re: Looking for answers - Rosavin (Rhodiola rosea) » karaS, posted by jujube on September 26, 2004, at 18:50:13
> Thanks again Kara for the response. In response to your question, I ended up being put on Depo because my cycle started becoming irregular over the past 8 months (every 2 - 3 weeks). It was really taking a toll on me, particularly with the iron deficiency. My gp had done a FSH test about 5 months ago to see if I was perimenopausal (I am 42 and a smoker). The result was negative. When the irregularities continued, she referred me to a gyno. He didn't redo the test or check anything else, although he did order a pelvic ultrasound which took place a few weeks after the shot. He suggested Depo because I smoke. I usually prefer to know a bit more about a drug that I am being given (I have had bad reactions to cough medicine), but in this case, I was simply told that it may cause some weight gain and cessation of periods. When I started feeling really ill a about 1 - 2 weeks after the shot, I did some research. What I found out is that Depo can be a very nasty drug for a lot of women. I won't be getting a second shot.
>
> I think I have made my decisions about my natural supplements. I will stick with the B-Complex and extra B-12, vitamin C (500 mg, twice a day), magnesium (250 mg, twice a day). Continue the MACA (hopefully to offset the Depo shot). And, I will look at adding Picamilon or blueberry leaf extract for anxiety. At this time I am going to stay away from the Rhodiola. I re-visited the the literature I had received about the product, and it said that although it is not a MAO inhibitor, it works on balancing MAO. I am now a little nervous about adding it because I had read that MAOIs should not be mixed with SSRIs. I don't want to take any chances.
>
> Thanks again. Hopefully we'll have a chance to chat again soon. Have a good evening.
>
> Tamara
Tamara,Sounds like you're making good decisions. I wasn't being judgemental about the Depo Provera shot. I just didn't know exactly what it was used for.
One thing about those FSH tests - many women I've known have had that test and the results didn't make any sense. My friend who was in her late 40's was told that she wasn't menopausal because of her test results and that she should be getting her period. However, she definitely was menopausal and I think she had her period once more a few months later and never has had it again. (That was about 10 years ago.) My sister had a similar strange test result. I could be wrong but that has led me to believe that the FSH levels can really vary a lot and so are not the final word on menopause status - just one more tool to help determine it.
Anyway, good luck and definitely keep us posted on your progress!
Kara
Posted by jujube on September 26, 2004, at 19:28:37
In reply to Re: Looking for answers - Rosavin (Rhodiola rosea) » jujube, posted by karaS on September 26, 2004, at 19:17:22
> > Thanks again Kara for the response. In response to your question, I ended up being put on Depo because my cycle started becoming irregular over the past 8 months (every 2 - 3 weeks). It was really taking a toll on me, particularly with the iron deficiency. My gp had done a FSH test about 5 months ago to see if I was perimenopausal (I am 42 and a smoker). The result was negative. When the irregularities continued, she referred me to a gyno. He didn't redo the test or check anything else, although he did order a pelvic ultrasound which took place a few weeks after the shot. He suggested Depo because I smoke. I usually prefer to know a bit more about a drug that I am being given (I have had bad reactions to cough medicine), but in this case, I was simply told that it may cause some weight gain and cessation of periods. When I started feeling really ill a about 1 - 2 weeks after the shot, I did some research. What I found out is that Depo can be a very nasty drug for a lot of women. I won't be getting a second shot.
> >
> > I think I have made my decisions about my natural supplements. I will stick with the B-Complex and extra B-12, vitamin C (500 mg, twice a day), magnesium (250 mg, twice a day). Continue the MACA (hopefully to offset the Depo shot). And, I will look at adding Picamilon or blueberry leaf extract for anxiety. At this time I am going to stay away from the Rhodiola. I re-visited the the literature I had received about the product, and it said that although it is not a MAO inhibitor, it works on balancing MAO. I am now a little nervous about adding it because I had read that MAOIs should not be mixed with SSRIs. I don't want to take any chances.
> >
> > Thanks again. Hopefully we'll have a chance to chat again soon. Have a good evening.
> >
> > Tamara
>
>
> Tamara,
>
> Sounds like you're making good decisions. I wasn't being judgemental about the Depo Provera shot. I just didn't know exactly what it was used for.
>
> One thing about those FSH tests - many women I've known have had that test and the results didn't make any sense. My friend who was in her late 40's was told that she wasn't menopausal because of her test results and that she should be getting her period. However, she definitely was menopausal and I think she had her period once more a few months later and never has had it again. (That was about 10 years ago.) My sister had a similar strange test result. I could be wrong but that has led me to believe that the FSH levels can really vary a lot and so are not the final word on menopause status - just one more tool to help determine it.
>
> Anyway, good luck and definitely keep us posted on your progress!
>
> KaraKara,
Not to worry. I didn't think you were being judgemental at all. I am, actually, kicking myself in the *ss for taking the shot, particularly when my initial instinct was don't do it (it is a 3-month injectable, so there is nothing you can do for three months if you have an adverse reaction). I agree that the FSH test can be fallible. Well, I will continue to take the MACA and, hopefully have good results with that in terms of hormonal balancing.
Thanks again.
Tamara
>
>
Posted by karaS on September 26, 2004, at 19:52:36
In reply to Re: Magnesium » jujube, posted by JLx on September 26, 2004, at 12:06:43
> > The magnesium I am taking is magnesium oxide.
>
> I would definitely get another kind of magnesium. See this post: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20030306/msgs/207021.html
>
> Magnesium aspartate, and magnesium glutamate are contraindicated with depression, btw. Mg glycinate and mg taurate are probably the most calming because of the amino acids they're chelated with. Mg citrate is good, but I found it to be one of the more diarrhea-inducing types, as opposed to mg malate, which I like better, but maybe that's just me.
>
> > By the way, when I started getting sick after the Depo shot, I started doing research and came across the site you indicated as well as others. It is astounding how many women have suffered on that drug.
>
> It's not surprising considering it's just synthetic progesterone. Did you find ideas about what might counteract the effects? I took some progesterone, after all the hype about it, but it was the wrong thing for my body type. At least I could just discontinue it and feel better. You are stuck for 3 months or longer.
>
> > I learned that it is used in the prison system on sex offenders and pedeophiles. Nice eh?
>
> I have never heard anything good about it actually, especially in the feminist press.
>
> JL
>JL,
Why do you like the Mg malate best? I was looking on iHerb.com to order Mg taurate and I was surprised to see that they don't carry it at all. Also, have you tried any sustained-release versions? I hear that's a good way to take it.
-K
Posted by tealady on September 26, 2004, at 23:44:22
In reply to Re: Looking for answers - Rosavin (Rhodiola rosea) » karaS, posted by jujube on September 24, 2004, at 7:33:43
> to try and combat the horrible side effects I am having from my first (and yes, my only) Depo Provera shot. I am just recovering my iron deficincy that left me exhausted and apathetic. I find that when I recover from a physical illness, I seem to end up being very anxious and apprehensive (thank God I only get really sick about once every 7 or 8 years or so). Anyways, are there any supplements that you would recommend (i.e. amino acids or an amino blend) to help me get back on my feet and to particularly address the lack of motivation and anxiety (I did try L-Tyrosine, but after two weeks, I felt like I was going to spin out of control - a little too wired, even when I reduced the dose)? Thanks and sorry for the long message.
Hi ,
Depo is dreadful stuff for most...
here's a thread with thought from quite a few users is anyone wants a sample of effects
This posts mentions some psychological effects too
http://forums.about.com/ab-womenshealth/messages?msg=729.43 (to read whole thread..select advanced view at bottom RHS, then all messages)
some go OK on it though?
here's a snip "wife switched to Depo-Provera five years ago. Her primary reason for selecting Depo-Provera was two-fold -- for the
treatment of primary dysmennorhea which had caused horrific pre-menstrual pain since age 16, and because of its
convenient once every 13-week injection schedule.Within the first three months after her initial injection, I began seeing the side effects. They worsened in severity over time
and persist to this day. Among those side effects are the following:unpredictable irritability and excitability
inexplicable anxiety
restlessness
constant fatigue
insomnia
aching joints and skeletal pain
weight gain without a corresponding increase in caloric intake or a decline in aerobic activity
virtual total loss of libido
anorgasmia
daily gastric upset
frequent headaches
severe acne on her face and neck
hot flashes
night sweatsIn a very short time, my wife went from being a youthful, energetic, level-headed, sinuous, sensuous woman in the prime of her life to an easily provoked, often irrational, anxious, exhausted, sexually disinterested, overweight menopausal older woman. I still adore this woman for the many wonderful qualities I know she still possesses, but our life together has become almost constantly frustrating and I often find myself walking on eggshells.
Perhaps my son (from a previous marriage) expressed the situation best when, totally unaware that she was using Depo-Provera, he said about 5 months after my wife had started using Depo-Provera, "When we met her, it was like an angel had come into our lives. She was really nice. We used to have a lot of fun as a family, but then she turned into someone else."Jan
Posted by tealady on September 27, 2004, at 1:01:54
In reply to Re: Looking for answers - Rosavin (Rhodiola rosea) » karaS, posted by jujube on September 26, 2004, at 19:28:37
Hi Tamara,
Didn't mean to scare ya with the depo post...just meant as a warning in case anyone else here is considering it!..or in case you think it might be convenient to change your mind.(heard that one before, sorry)Re the low iron..once you ge your ferritin levels over 50..good to aim for around 70ish for ferritin...then maybe consider trying the tyroien again..no more tha 500mg tyrosine though..and take early first thing in morning on empty stomach, then some P5PB6 (say 20mg daily) and small dose of zinc(say 15mg) with brekkie at least couple of times a week..and keep going with your multi and magnesium near brekkie too...
may work better when your ferritin is up...ya should be able to tolerate it better(less edgy)On the other hand ...tyrosine is just NOT for some people..makes them aggro/cranky
Jan
Posted by jujube on September 27, 2004, at 7:03:51
In reply to Re: Looking for answers - Rosavin (Rhodiola rosea) » jujube, posted by tealady on September 27, 2004, at 1:01:54
Thanks Jan. You didn't scare me with the Depo post. When I started feeling sick, throwing up every morning and during the day, and having overwhelming anxiety (it was like I was becoming afraid to go anywhere), mood swings and fatigue, I started doing research and came across articles and forums detailing how many, many women have suffered on Depo. With respect to the iron deficiency, my serum ferritin levels are now at 47 (or 49), so I am doing much better there. I continue to take my iron supplements, and may look into using liver extract instead of the iron supplements (since my response to supplementation was not good). I never realized how detrimental low serum ferritin levels can be to a person's system. I thought a person only expeienced physical and emotional symptons when anemia set in. Anyways, I had had to take time off work (a number of months) because of the iron deficiency (it just sucked the life right out of me - probably because it was left untreated for so long and, during this time, I kept pushing myself and worked 11 - 12 hour days. Then, when detected and treated, I did not respond to treatment). I was finally feeling a bit more energetic and clear-headed after a ten-week course of iron injections and then I got the Depo shot. I have been sick ever since (but I've lost about 8 pounds instead of gaining). Thank God I had an enormous amount of leave. If I need more time, I can take it. I will be so happy when the shot wears off and I start to feel like a human being again.
Thanks again for your message.> Hi Tamara,
> Didn't mean to scare ya with the depo post...just meant as a warning in case anyone else here is considering it!..or in case you think it might be convenient to change your mind.(heard that one before, sorry)
>
> Re the low iron..once you ge your ferritin levels over 50..good to aim for around 70ish for ferritin...then maybe consider trying the tyroien again..no more tha 500mg tyrosine though..and take early first thing in morning on empty stomach, then some P5PB6 (say 20mg daily) and small dose of zinc(say 15mg) with brekkie at least couple of times a week..and keep going with your multi and magnesium near brekkie too...
> may work better when your ferritin is up...ya should be able to tolerate it better(less edgy)
>
> On the other hand ...tyrosine is just NOT for some people..makes them aggro/cranky
> Jan
>
Posted by tealady on September 28, 2004, at 6:59:10
In reply to Re: Looking for answers - Rosavin (Rhodiola rosea) » tealady, posted by jujube on September 27, 2004, at 7:03:51
> Thanks Jan. You didn't scare me with the Depo post. When I started feeling sick, throwing up every morning and during the day, and having overwhelming anxiety (it was like I was becoming afraid to go anywhere), mood swings and fatigue, I started doing research and came across articles and forums detailing how many, many women have >
suffered on Depo.
>
all progestins do that to me..like the pill for instance..and then it don't work anyway..as I throw it up I guess <grin>>
>With respect to the iron deficiency, my serum ferritin levels are now at 47 (or 49), so I am doing much better there.
>Yep, pretty good going!
>
>I continue to take my iron supplements, and may look into using liver extract instead of the iron supplements (since my response to supplementation was not good). I never realized how detrimental low serum ferritin levels can be to a person's system.
>Yep, sure are..where did you learn about ferritin..here? (I've been trying to mention it a bit for a couple of years)
>
> I thought a person only expeienced physical and emotional symptons when anemia set in. Anyways, I had had to take time off work (a number of months) because of the iron deficiency (it just sucked the life right out of me - probably because it was left untreated for so long and, during this time, I kept pushing myself and worked 11 - 12 hour days. Then, when detected and treated, I did not respond to treatment). I was finally feeling a bit more energetic and clear-headed after a ten-week course of iron injections and then I got the Depo shot. I have been sick ever since (but I've lost about 8 pounds instead of gaining). Thank God I had an enormous amount of leave. If I need more time, I can take it. I will be so happy when the shot wears off and I start to feel like a human being again.
>Fingers crossed that's soon. It takes a bit to learn to research everything before we follow doctor's advice doesn't it?
At least with the net and others to chat to and learn from it's now possible!Hugs, Jan
Posted by jujube on September 28, 2004, at 7:55:24
In reply to Re: Looking for answers - Rosavin (Rhodiola rosea) » jujube, posted by tealady on September 28, 2004, at 6:59:10
> > Thanks Jan. You didn't scare me with the Depo post. When I started feeling sick, throwing up every morning and during the day, and having overwhelming anxiety (it was like I was becoming afraid to go anywhere), mood swings and fatigue, I started doing research and came across articles and forums detailing how many, many women have >
> suffered on Depo.
> >
>
>
> all progestins do that to me..like the pill for instance..and then it don't work anyway..as I throw it up I guess <grin>
>
> >
> >With respect to the iron deficiency, my serum ferritin levels are now at 47 (or 49), so I am doing much better there.
> >
>
> Yep, pretty good going!
>
> >
> >I continue to take my iron supplements, and may look into using liver extract instead of the iron supplements (since my response to supplementation was not good). I never realized how detrimental low serum ferritin levels can be to a person's system.
> >
>
> Yep, sure are..where did you learn about ferritin..here? (I've been trying to mention it a bit for a couple of years)
>
> >
> > I thought a person only expeienced physical and emotional symptons when anemia set in. Anyways, I had had to take time off work (a number of months) because of the iron deficiency (it just sucked the life right out of me - probably because it was left untreated for so long and, during this time, I kept pushing myself and worked 11 - 12 hour days. Then, when detected and treated, I did not respond to treatment). I was finally feeling a bit more energetic and clear-headed after a ten-week course of iron injections and then I got the Depo shot. I have been sick ever since (but I've lost about 8 pounds instead of gaining). Thank God I had an enormous amount of leave. If I need more time, I can take it. I will be so happy when the shot wears off and I start to feel like a human being again.
> >
>
> Fingers crossed that's soon. It takes a bit to learn to research everything before we follow doctor's advice doesn't it?
> At least with the net and others to chat to and learn from it's now possible!
>
> Hugs, JanMy own gp is very good, and she is the own who tested the serum ferritin. There are, however, many doctors who refuse to acknowledge the detrimental effects low serum ferritin levels have on a person's physical and emotional well-being. I was extremely fatigued, experiencing a lot of nausea and indigestion and was just plain moody and was not responding to an AD. At first she thought I had an ulcer. When she tested the serum ferritin, she told me she couldn't believe I was actually able to go into work and get anything done. During the early stages of the iron defiency, I still managed to work my 10 - 11 hour day, but, after a few months of not responding to oral treatment, my body finally (and, yes, my emotions) finally gave out. It's so frustrating because I was almost feeling like a human being again and then I got that horrid Depo Provera shot, and I feel like I have taken a six-month step backward. It doesn't help that the Depo shot has made me so nausea that I am having a hard time eating. I know that once I start getting some decent food into my system, I will start to feel a bit better.
Anyways, thanks for listening. Take good care.
Tamara
Posted by tealady on September 28, 2004, at 8:14:16
In reply to Re: Looking for answers - Rosavin (Rhodiola rosea) » tealady, posted by jujube on September 28, 2004, at 7:55:24
your doc sounds great
Posted by jujube on September 28, 2004, at 8:38:16
In reply to Re: Looking for answers - Rosavin (Rhodiola rosea) » jujube, posted by tealady on September 28, 2004, at 8:14:16
She really is good. She can be a bit bitchy and impatient at times, but she is extremely knowledgeable and thorough. I have been going to her for 8 1/2 years, since I was 34. I started going to her when I stopped drinking and was surprised to find (at her own admission) that she, too, was a recovering alcoholic (at the time she had over 18 years of sobriety). She also suffers from anxiety attacks, and was able to help me understand the difference between an anxiety attack and an attack of low blood sugar. For years (during my drinking), I had been told that I had anxiety attacks. These attacks would hit the day afer a night of heavy drinking (which was most nights), when I would get up and indulge in copious amounts of coffee and cigs and take one of my daily dosea of Sudafed, then go out all pumped up on caffeine, nicotine and pseudoepiphedrine, on an empty stomach. Needless to say, I would suffer an attack. For years, doctors at the clinic would tell me it was nothing more than anxiety (even without asking a single question or doing any blood work). It was years later when I started seeing my now doctor that I learned what had actually been going on with my body. It's so important to find a doctor that understands the issues you are facing and who does more than look at you and dismiss your concerns with a diagnosis of anxiety (or even depression in some cases).
Anyways, talk to you soon.
Tamara
> your doc sounds great
>
Posted by JLx on September 28, 2004, at 11:16:51
In reply to Re: Magnesium » JLx, posted by karaS on September 26, 2004, at 19:52:36
> Why do you like the Mg malate best?
Not necessarily best, but better than mg citrate. For me, malate is less likely to provoke diarrhea. Malate is also the one that's indicated for fibromyalgia and CFS, btw, so I figured it might help with my fatigue and aches and pains.
>I was looking on iHerb.com to order Mg taurate and I was surprised to see that they don't carry it at all.
You can get it at The Vitamin Shoppe, or a lot cheaper, at Amazon. (Cardiovasular Research braand)
Also, have you tried any sustained-release versions? I hear that's a good way to take it.
No, I haven't.
JL
Posted by karaS on September 28, 2004, at 16:40:23
In reply to Re: Magnesium » karaS, posted by JLx on September 28, 2004, at 11:16:51
JL,
Thanks again for your advice. You are a great source! (More comments interspersed below)
> > Why do you like the Mg malate best?
>
> Not necessarily best, but better than mg citrate. For me, malate is less likely to provoke diarrhea. Malate is also the one that's indicated for fibromyalgia and CFS, btw, so I figured it might help with my fatigue and aches and pains.
Right now I'm having a lot of trouble with diarrhea for several reasons (including stress) so I probably should go with the taurate version. OTOH, I have CFS and I will probably be starting on Cymbalta soon (which might change my system a lot) so it might behoove to me order the malate as well.> >I was looking on iHerb.com to order Mg taurate and I was surprised to see that they don't carry it at all.
> You can get it at The Vitamin Shoppe, or a lot cheaper, at Amazon. (Cardiovasular Research braand)
I didn't know that Amazon carried vitamins and at good cost! Cardiovascula Research (CRI) is a great brand! Thanks for the info. I love iHerb.com and like that I can usually get everything I want there at a good price without paying for shipping, but looks like I need to go elsewhere in this case. I tried to get iHerb to carry CRI brand. They were looking into it but now I think I understand why they failed. I bet CRI has an exclusivity deal with Amazon - at least in terms of selling it at a discount.
> Also, have you tried any sustained-release versions? I hear that's a good way to take it.
>
> No, I haven't.
>
> JL
>
>Thanks again.
Take care,
K
Posted by karaS on September 29, 2004, at 14:37:53
In reply to Re: Magnesium » karaS, posted by JLx on September 28, 2004, at 11:16:51
I'm so confused lately by all of the talk about Magnesium and Calcium. I've read so many things that talk about the dangers of too much calcium, not to mention the possible antagonistic effect on depression. I've read all kinds of different things about what the Calcium/Magnesium intake ratio should be. Then of course there's the issue of women being told that they should be taking 1,000-1,200 mg. a day to prevent osteoporosis. George Eby seems to think that's way too much. Who to believe?
I have read parts of Eby's article on magnesium etc. and while there seems to be a lot of good advice, there are other things he says that trouble me and make me question his information. For instance, he says that no antidepressants work aside from the placebo effect. That's so outrageous that I won't spend anymore time on it. Secondly he says that magnesium and calcium compete for absorption - something that Larry recently said was completely untrue.
Anyone here have more insight into all of this?
-Kara
Posted by JLx on September 29, 2004, at 17:45:44
In reply to Re: Magnesium and Calcium, posted by karaS on September 29, 2004, at 14:37:53
> I'm so confused lately by all of the talk about Magnesium and Calcium. I've read so many things that talk about the dangers of too much calcium, not to mention the possible antagonistic effect on depression. I've read all kinds of different things about what the Calcium/Magnesium intake ratio should be. Then of course there's the issue of women being told that they should be taking 1,000-1,200 mg. a day to prevent osteoporosis. George Eby seems to think that's way too much. Who to believe?
> I have read parts of Eby's article on magnesium etc. and while there seems to be a lot of good advice, there are other things he says that trouble me and make me question his information. For instance, he says that no antidepressants work aside from the placebo effect. That's so outrageous that I won't spend anymore time on it. Secondly he says that magnesium and calcium compete for absorption - something that Larry recently said was completely untrue.
>
> Anyone here have more insight into all of this?
>
> -KaraEby's kind of nuts on this subject and I don't think he's really read through his own long essay to see the contradictions that have cropped up as he revises. The last time I read some of his stuff, I thought he had actually mellowed on the subject of antidepressants.
It's disgusting that it's so hard to sort through the conflicting info. I've read that dietary calcium is not a factor in calcium kidney stones, for instance. I've read that it IS the cause of kidney stones. And I've read that it actually prevents calcium kidney stones! All from reputable sources. Anyone who's had a kidney stone (as I have) wants correct info to prevent a reoccurence, so this is maddening.
For myself, given how I feel and the bits and pieces I've read, I come down on the side of magnesium dominating. I think that there's lots more to preventing osteoporosis than calcium. Boron, for instance, increases estradiol, which is useful for post-menopausal women.
Food for thought:
Cal/mag ratio: http://www.enerex.bc.ca/calcium%20ratio.htm
Excitotoxins: http://www.smart-drugs.com/ias-excitotoxins.htm
JL
Posted by karaS on September 29, 2004, at 22:32:34
In reply to Re: Magnesium and Calcium, posted by JLx on September 29, 2004, at 17:45:44
> > I'm so confused lately by all of the talk about Magnesium and Calcium. I've read so many things that talk about the dangers of too much calcium, not to mention the possible antagonistic effect on depression. I've read all kinds of different things about what the Calcium/Magnesium intake ratio should be. Then of course there's the issue of women being told that they should be taking 1,000-1,200 mg. a day to prevent osteoporosis. George Eby seems to think that's way too much. Who to believe?
>
> > I have read parts of Eby's article on magnesium etc. and while there seems to be a lot of good advice, there are other things he says that trouble me and make me question his information. For instance, he says that no antidepressants work aside from the placebo effect. That's so outrageous that I won't spend anymore time on it. Secondly he says that magnesium and calcium compete for absorption - something that Larry recently said was completely untrue.
> >
> > Anyone here have more insight into all of this?
> >
> > -Kara
>
> Eby's kind of nuts on this subject and I don't think he's really read through his own long essay to see the contradictions that have cropped up as he revises. The last time I read some of his stuff, I thought he had actually mellowed on the subject of antidepressants.
>
> It's disgusting that it's so hard to sort through the conflicting info. I've read that dietary calcium is not a factor in calcium kidney stones, for instance. I've read that it IS the cause of kidney stones. And I've read that it actually prevents calcium kidney stones! All from reputable sources. Anyone who's had a kidney stone (as I have) wants correct info to prevent a reoccurence, so this is maddening.
>
> For myself, given how I feel and the bits and pieces I've read, I come down on the side of magnesium dominating. I think that there's lots more to preventing osteoporosis than calcium. Boron, for instance, increases estradiol, which is useful for post-menopausal women.> Food for thought:
>
> Cal/mag ratio: http://www.enerex.bc.ca/calcium%20ratio.htm
>
> Excitotoxins: http://www.smart-drugs.com/ias-excitotoxins.htm
>
> JL
JL,Thanks for the links. I am still confused but getting a little clearer. It is maddening though! Looks like even the experts are confused so I'm in good company. I am leaning towards equal levels of calcium and magnesium or no calcium at all but just magnesium. The other thing that is maddening is that all of the articles I've seen are for and about men. They don't deal at all with the special needs of women concerning osteoporosis. GRRRRR!
How awful for you trying to figure out the situation concerning kidney stones! That's such an immediate concern and yet how are you supposed to know what to do?
This all raises another question for me now. I'd like to raise my estrogen production. Should I take additional boron? (above what's in my multiple that is)
Kara
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