![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 178 to 202 of 435. Go back in thread:
Posted by raybakes on September 25, 2004, at 7:47:42
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog?- Larry, posted by tealady on September 24, 2004, at 8:10:32
Hi Jan, hope I'm not overwhelming you with too much info or repeating stuff you already know, but I'm quite excited because a lot of it applies to my own autoimmune problems too.
Found this interesting...
"Three months of supplementation with 200mcg selenium daily reduced thyroid peroxidase antibodies (TPOAb) but had no effect on Tg antibodies (TgAb) in a well-controlled study of 70 women with autoimmune thyroiditis..."
Another article mentioned that thyroid peroxidase antibodies interfere with the muscles too, so that they can't relax - eye muscle fatigue seems to be a common symptom.
I was wondering if as selenium reduces TPO antibodies, whether tyrosine might reduce antibodies to thyroglobulin - just a thought but couldn't find any references to it! Although this page helped me understand the functions of TG and TPO....
http://arbl.cvmbs.colostate.edu/hbooks/pathphys/endocrine/thyroid/synthesis.html
also concerns about soy and thyroid peroxidase..
"Sheehan also expresses concern about the effects soy may have on the function of the thyroid gland. Animal study results, some of which date back to 1959, link soy isoflavones to possible thyroid disorders, such as goiter. A 1997 study in Biochemical Pharmacology identified genistein and daidzein as inhibitors of thyroid peroxidase, which data suggest may prompt goiter and autoimmune disorders of the thyroid. Critics of these studies suggest that iodine deficiency may be a factor that needs to be considered when evaluating study results."
and breast implants too!
"We have found [thyroglobulin and thyroid peroxidase antibodies]
present in the sera of 24% of patients with silicone gel breast implants"
Posted by TeeJay on September 25, 2004, at 18:54:18
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog?- Larry » tealady, posted by raybakes on September 24, 2004, at 7:02:06
"Found this abstract that says that interleukin 1 can inhibit the conversion of T4 to the more active T3, so if interleukin 1 is part of your problem adding T4 may not be of much benefit - selenium is important for the conversion, and also stops the production of reverse T3, which antagonizes T3..."
Hmmm, now that got me asking myself a question or two!I used to take lots of supplements and herbs etc, but smoked VERY heavily, but have no been tobacco free for over 18 months and decided to try a few supplements without the handicap of destroying them with cigarette smoke.
No great method to my approach, I just had a look at what I had lying around still (I hate chucking expensive supps away) and decided to start taking a few things.
My regimen is this (and has been now for 2 weeks ish). At night before bed and all at once, selenium 200mcg, zinc 15mg, B6 100mg, ginkgo biloba 120mg and lithium orotate 120mg....in the morning I've been taking 500mg n acetyl cysteine.
I've actually been feeling a little more motivated, but extremely tired and very emotional and "wired" its making me question if anything i'm taking may be the cause. Also feeling very "disconnected" at the moment too and extremely short tempered and irritable.
The reason I ask on this thread, is Jan thinks I may well have quite a few symptoms of hypothyroidism and having recently started the selenium I wondered if it might be aggravating my symptoms? If anyone has any thoughts on anything else I'm taking and how it may be affecting me, I'd be interested to hear their views too.
Many thanks
TJ
Posted by karaS on September 25, 2004, at 19:07:17
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog?- Larry » tealady, posted by raybakes on September 25, 2004, at 7:47:42
Ray,
I was wondering if you might have some insight into a condition that two different people have brought up to me recently. It relates to thyroid problems. Both people have high TSh levels and their doctors have told them that they are hypothyroid and yet their symptoms are more like those of people who are hyperthyroid. One of these people is Simus who has posted on this thread quite a bit and has gone into more detail on her situation in those posts. The other is my neighbor. She had been taking Armour Thyroid but discontinued it a few months ago. She feels great. She has lots of energy, her concentration is fine and she is always hot when I'm cold. If anything she acts hyper, not hypo. She got a TSH and some other tests recently and her level was 21. As opposed to Simus, she tested positive for Hashimotos. Why isn't she feeling awful with a TSH level that high? She and Simus are both wondering if their problem might have more to do with their pituitary (although I don't see how that could be given the thyroid antibodies in my neighbor's case). Do you have any insights here? If so, they'd be greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Kara
Posted by karaS on September 25, 2004, at 19:40:26
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog?- » KaraS, posted by JLx on September 24, 2004, at 14:54:31
> Hi Kara,
>
> It sounds like we have a thing or two in common. :) I'm 49, female, never married, no children, depressed for many years, have given up completely on antidepressants, just muddling along with supplements and currently not doing too good. Lethargy, lack of energy, lack of motivation and all the discouragement that brings are my primary problems. I'm unemployed and financially desperate.
Hi JL,Thanks for sharing. Sounds like we have more than a thing or two in common (unfortunately for both of us)! It's so amazing to me that people are still reading all of the old posts in this long thread and bringing them back to life.
> I USED to be a nightowl, until just the last few years when I've suddenly become a morning person. That's been very weird, and I attribute it to hormonal changes and also probably increased cortisol always in my body. I read that in "The Cortisol Connection" btw. Talbott said that if we seem to need less sleep as we grow older that it's just that our cortisol is circulating in excess and out of its optimal daily rhythm. Wouldn't you know that there would be that big cloud around the "Hey, I'm now a morning person!" silver lining?? ;)I'm sure that my cortisol is all out of whack too. Might as well be a morning person with screwed up cortisol than a night owl with same problem, eh?
>
> Sleep before midnight is supposed to be the most beneficial to regulate cortisol and when I've managed to do it, I could really feel that I was more rested in some different way. So "early to bed" is on my list of self-care items, as difficult as it still is sometimes.I know you're right on this one. I just have to manage to discipline myself more and get on that earlier schedule. It's just too critical at this point.
> What I need to do to get to sleep early is start turning down or off the lights about 8 PM (which means no computer), eliminate sugar from my diet altogether -- I'm convinced that sugar is the biggest insomnia-inducing substance there is, for me anyway, worse than caffeine ever was -- and get as much light in the morning as I can. I have a light visor too, that I've used to turn myself around when I really got out of whack in the past. This really works but light visors and boxes are pretty expensive.Yes, sugar is very stimulating for me also and gives me hypoglycemia as well as contributing to restless leg syndrome. I do have a light box though I haven't been using it much. I have managed for a few days in a row, when I had some temporary work, to use the light box, go to bed earlier and take some melatonin at bedtime. This did help a lot. It's maintaining that schedule that is the really hard part because my natural instinct is to go to be later and later and later on each progressive night.
> Now that I'm running on I'm wondering if it was you or Simus who was talking about insomnia. Anyway, the other suggestion I have is to COMPLETELY eliminate light sources in the bedroom, such as from LED displays on clocks or light coming in from the sides of blinds. This, at least, is completely inexpensive and might be worth a try. I've also used melatonin in the old days, but just in very tiny doses than what's usually recommended on the bottles and then not all the time as melatonin sometimes increases depression. Exercise helps me to sleep too.Actually, in this thread I think it was probably Simus. I have insomnia problems off and on. I seem to either be sleeping too much or I can't sleep at all (when there's too much stress or RLS sysmptoms) So insomnia advice is welcomed by me as well. SB417 recently mentioned a lot of the same things you did. I really should try shutting off the computer and the TV by 8:00 PM. Of course I'd be cutting off two of my very few pleasures left but that's another story...
> > There are a few other things I should mention that might make the waters even murkier. I probably have an overabundance of candida yeast from antibiotics and too much sugar.
>
> Last year, I made the big effort to eliminate yeast and took that NOW formula that you have as a matter of fact. Since then I've backslid in a major way, and I now think it was helping my depression and lethary more than I thought at the time since it was such a gradual improvement. I take probiotics too. Source Naturals brand, "Life Flora" is now my favorite.I haven't started my anti-Candida program yet. Too many plans and too little motivation. I think just about everyone these days could benefit from such a program given that almost all of us have taken antibiotics and almost all of us have eaten too much sugar. I haven't tried "Life Flora" but sometimes I take Enzymatic Therapy Pearls. They're great because they don't have to be refrigerated and so they're much more convenient. Also, they're protected from stomach acid and aren't released until they get to the intestines.
> I just ran across this recently and don't recall seeing pantithine and molybedenum recommended for candida before.
>
> The Candida/Aldehyde detox pathway and the Molybdenum Connection, http://www.candidapage.com/aldehyde.shtml
>
> "By upping body levels of a body enzyme, pantethine counteracts brain fog, certain allergic sensitivities, and some consequences of alcoholism. (And here it is --) ... In people with candidiasis, the enzyme fights off a toxic byproduct called acetaldehyde, which is thought to cause brain fog, often-suffered but rarely diagnosed...."I've never heard of pantethine before. Sounds like it's worth a try. I believe that I have a problem or shortage concerning some enzymes. It's just an early theory that I need to research more and try more experiments with. The reason I think this is that I have cholinergic urticaria. Larry mentioned that this is thought to be caused by incomplete protein metabolism. That might help explain my depression as well (if there isn't enough of the amino acids available in my body to make neurotransmitters) and it would explain why I have aboslutely no reaction to taking tyrosine supplementation - even in very large dosages.
I've recently had luck with taking extra magnesium. I swear I have much less brain fog the following day after the evening I've taken it. It seems so hard to believe that it could help so much. I'm still testing it but there's no doubt in my mind that it's helping.
> > My sense of humor is still intact. All of this deceives most people (esp. my family and friends) who think that I'm just lazy. They don't get it that I just don't have the energy or the motivation to get a job or take care of my apartment.
>
> Boy, I can relate to that! My sister seems to think that because my parents are helping me with my bills that this means I feel as if I don't "have to get a job". In truth I feel utter shame and semi-hysterical most of the time just thinking about how much they've helped me financially. (And grateful too, of course.) As you've expressed, I usually feel just completely desperate to be more functional. It's just hell not to be able to WILL yourself to get things done. I think it's like depression for normal people, they've been "depressed" at some time in their life so they think they know what "depression" is. Most people have experienced some resistance or procrastination to getting some things done, which they then overcome, so they don't understand what it's like to NOT be able to overcome it. I don't understand it myself actually, but more than that, I don't understand why anyone would think that I'd choose to live like this when it's so obviously horrible.It's so hard to deal with the ignorance of the healthy world!! You want to make them experience it for just a little while so that they could understand. Did you read about the idea Simus and I had for forced understanding treatment? That's a good point about the definition of depression. It's so overused in our society to mean a little bit sad or under-the-weather. That is nothing like serious clinical depression. They just don't have a clue about the difference. It's just maddening! You said something so similar to Simus when she wrote: "As if anyone would choose to live like this!"
> I've ordered from Beyond A Century, btw, after I saw it mentioned on this board in the past. I've placed 3 orders with them and feel quite confident in them now.Yes, I trust them because Larry recommended them even though I haven't placed any orders with them yet. How long does it take to get your order? Do you live in the States or Canada?
-K
Posted by karaS on September 25, 2004, at 20:13:19
In reply to Re: TSH levels and thyroid illness? » raybakes, posted by karaS on September 25, 2004, at 19:07:17
I believe that both of these people have normal T4 and T3 levels as well.
Posted by JLx on September 25, 2004, at 20:57:07
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog?- » JLx, posted by karaS on September 25, 2004, at 19:40:26
> It's so amazing to me that people are still reading all of the old posts in this long thread and bringing them back to life.
Seems like some of the best info is in the long threads, not to mention that you and Simus were pretty funny. :)
> I'm sure that my cortisol is all out of whack too. Might as well be a morning person with screwed up cortisol than a night owl with same problem, eh?Well, if you have a day job anyway! In "The Cortisol Connection" Talbott described the normal rise and fall cycle throughout day and how we screw it up by our tendency to have a lot of activity and stress in our evening hours. I recall him saying that he took theanine himself at a certain time each day to try to counteract that. I'd like to try that some day.
Have you ever taken anything specifically for hormone changes? I took a herbal women's formula for years and it was helpful, probably because of the DHEA. Last year I tried both pregnenolone and progesterone. The progesterone was very disappointing after I had read such good things about it. Aside from one tantalizing day of feeling like I had a lot of zip and spring in my step, it was awful.
> I know you're right on this one. I just have to manage to discipline myself more and get on that earlier schedule. It's just too critical at this point.
Well, one reason why I was saying it is that I needed to hear it! Here I am on the computer at nearly 10 PM.
> Yes, sugar is very stimulating for me also and gives me hypoglycemia as well as contributing to restless leg syndrome.
By that do you mean vague little jumpiness feelings in your legs? When I get those, I usually try magnesium and if that doesn't work, I add a little calcium, and if they don't work, I add a little potassium. Some version usually does the trick.
>I do have a light box though I haven't been using it much.
I saw your post elswhere about that after I posted. I was surprised to see that you didn't find much value in the Sunrizer....I've always wanted one of those because I thought it sounded very body-friendly to be woken up gradually with light.
Have you ever seen this site http://www.cet.org/default.htm?AutoMEQ.htm~main and it's Morningness - Eveningness Questionnaire? Before I read that, I was thinking that I was using my light visor early enough in the AM but now I think not.
>This did help a lot. It's maintaining that schedule that is the really hard part because my natural instinct is to go to be later and later and later on each progressive night.
Oh, I know what you mean. I still do that too. The only difference now is that it doesn't seem so bad if I have to get up in the morning because I only sleep 6 hours instead of 8.
> I really should try shutting off the computer and the TV by 8:00 PM. Of course I'd be cutting off two of my very few pleasures left but that's another story...
I'm not sure the TV counts so much as long as you watch it in a darkened room, unless you have one of those monster TVs maybe. What I notice when I get in the habit of getting to bed early, or when I use my light visor in the morning early enough, is that when about 10 PM rolls around, I start feeling just desperate to sleep. That's really pretty cool then to just fall asleep right away after a near lifetime of insomnia.
> I haven't started my anti-Candida program yet. Too many plans and too little motivation.Yeah, I hear ya. I could just kick myself for getting on the sugar and carb bandwagon again after having done so much of the anti-Candida effort last fall.
> I've never heard of pantethine before. Sounds like it's worth a try.
Me neither. I think I'm going to get some as it sounds like it might neutralize some of the ill effects of the yeast, even without the anti-Candida measures.
> The reason I think this is that I have cholinergic urticaria. Larry mentioned that this is thought to be caused by incomplete protein metabolism. That might help explain my depression as well (if there isn't enough of the amino acids available in my body to make neurotransmitters) and it would explain why I have aboslutely no reaction to taking tyrosine supplementation - even in very large dosages.
I noticed that on the other thread. Have you tried the...bromelain, was it?
> I've recently had luck with taking extra magnesium. I swear I have much less brain fog the following day after the evening I've taken it. It seems so hard to believe that it could help so much. I'm still testing it but there's no doubt in my mind that it's helping.
Magnesium is great stuff. No matter how crappy I feel, or how slipshod I am not taking helpful supplements or watching my diet, I've found that if I at least still take magnesium, then I don't get the extreme "hate myself" blues and suicidal ideation/feelings that always before characterized "the pit" of depression for me. That's a big deal as I used to not only feel suicidal but also beat myself up for it...in that inimitable depressive style. ;)
I started taking magnesium after I ran across George Eby's site about it. I know you're familiar, most people here are by now I think, but here's the link anyway for lurkers: http://www.coldcure.com/html/dep.html I found that linked on a British psychiatric journal's site, and when I asked my psychiatrist about whether he thought magnesium might help me, he responded negatively. Fortunately, I didn't listen to him!
> It's so hard to deal with the ignorance of the healthy world!! You want to make them experience it for just a little while so that they could understand. Did you read about the idea Simus and I had for forced understanding treatment?Yes, I enjoyed many of your comments. :)
> It's just maddening! You said something so similar to Simus when she wrote: "As if anyone would choose to live like this!"
That's the wonderfulness of coming here, people understand.
> Yes, I trust them because Larry recommended them even though I haven't placed any orders with them yet. How long does it take to get your order? Do you live in the States or Canada?
I live not too far from Simus, depending on what she considers "central" Michigan. I am a bit northwest of Grand Rapids. I don't recall specifically how long it took for my BAC orders, but I'm sure it was something reasonable like a week.
JL
Posted by karaS on September 26, 2004, at 1:23:19
In reply to Excuse me for elbowing my way in here.........., posted by TeeJay on September 25, 2004, at 18:54:18
Posted by raybakes on September 26, 2004, at 5:00:37
In reply to Re: TSH levels and thyroid illness? » raybakes, posted by karaS on September 25, 2004, at 19:07:17
>
> I was wondering if you might have some insight >into a condition that two different people have >brought up to me recently. It relates to >thyroid problems. Both people have high TSh >levels and their doctors have told them that >they are hypothyroid and yet their symptoms are >more like those of people who are hyperthyroid. >One of these people is Simus who has posted on >this thread quite a bit and has gone into more >detail on her situation in those posts. The >other is my neighbor. She had been taking Armour >Thyroid but discontinued it a few months ago. >She feels great. She has lots of energy, her >concentration is fine and she is always hot when >I'm cold. If anything she acts hyper, not >hypo. She got a TSH and some other tests >recently and her level was 21. As opposed to >Simus, she tested positive for Hashimotos. Why >isn't she feeling awful with a TSH level that >high? She and Simus are both wondering if their >problem might have more to do with their >pituitary (although I don't see how that could >be given the thyroid antibodies in my neighbor's >case). Do you have any insights here? If so, >they'd be greatly appreciated.
Just goes to show that people can't be slotted into specific thyroid diseases all the time!Looked up a few things and quite a few articles contradict, so I think there's a lot of confusion amongst the medical community too!
Your neighbour could be borderline hashimoto's because the early stages of hashimoto's a lot of the thyroid hormones are normal. Also in the early stages of hashimoto's stress hormones are increased, so as long as the adrenals hold out, energy levels might be OK for a while. Looking at great smokies thyroid test, there are levels of thyroid antibodies that are within the normal range - does your neighbour know her levels?
TSH regulation in the pituitary, seems to be affected by GABA and dopamine (and so P5P), prolactin, zinc, and fluoride. I'm sure there's others too! Zinc appears to be important in the synthesis and degradation of TSH, GABA and dopamine control the nervous system's regulation of TSH. Prolactin affects (not sure if raises or lowers) TSH, and prolactin is raised by stress and insulin. (A TSH secreting tumour also raises TSH but it appears to be extemely rare - dopamine and GABA would be very important in this case).
Estogen is important too, as it regulates the levels of thyroid binding globulin - too much estrogen can bind too much free T4, and upset the feedback to the hypothalamus/pituitary.
TSH uses a messenger called cAMP (related to ATP) to pass it's message onto the thyroid. cAMP can be raised by coffee, tea and chocolate. Insulin lowers cAMP, so insulin resistance and blood sugar problems, may make TSH work inefficently, and so require more of it to stimulate the thyroid.
Thyroid peroxidase makes hydrogen peroxide to oxidise iodine for thyroxine. Excessive hydrogen peroxide has to be mopped up to prevent it damaging the thyroid, so anti-oxidants, particularly glutathione, are needed. It seems, low glutathione for any extended period of time, can lead to the initiation or exacerbation of hashimoto's - I'm deficient in glutathione as the 'genovations' detox profile showed I had a 'null' glutathione gene.
http://endo.endojournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/128/2/1136
Not sure I've kept to any straight answers...I'll look at some of Simus' replies later..
Ray
Posted by raybakes on September 26, 2004, at 5:12:24
In reply to Excuse me for elbowing my way in here.........., posted by TeeJay on September 25, 2004, at 18:54:18
Hi TJ,
> >
> My regimen is this (and has been now for 2 weeks ish). At night before bed and all at once, selenium 200mcg, zinc 15mg, B6 100mg, ginkgo biloba 120mg and lithium orotate 120mg....in the morning I've been taking 500mg n acetyl cysteine.
>
> I've actually been feeling a little more motivated, but extremely tired and very emotional and "wired" its making me question if anything i'm taking may be the cause. Also feeling very "disconnected" at the moment too and extremely short tempered and irritable.
>
> The reason I ask on this thread, is Jan thinks I may well have quite a few symptoms of hypothyroidism and having recently started the selenium I wondered if it might be aggravating my symptoms? If anyone has any thoughts on anything else I'm taking and how it may be affecting me, I'd be interested to hear their views too.
>Came across this on lithium and thyroid...seems like lithium cam make you hypothyroid!
Thyroid abnormalities in lithium-treated patients.
Ray
Posted by raybakes on September 26, 2004, at 12:50:40
In reply to Re: TSH levels and thyroid illness? » raybakes, posted by karaS on September 25, 2004, at 19:07:17
Hi Kara, looked at Simus' thyroid test results on one of the threads, and they don't seem too bad do they?
I was wondering if, of the T3 result mentioned, what proportion of T3 was reverse T3? (when the deiodinase enzyme fails to take off the right iodine from T4, due to selenium or zinc deficiency or inflammation). Some research states that reverse T3 blocks the action of T3, so even though T3 is 'normal' a person will still get some or a lot of symptoms.
Simus' free T4 seemed to be on the low side of normal, and as it's free T4 levels that switch off TSH, maybe that's why TSH is on the high side of normal. I wonder if there is too much thyroid binding globulin lowering free T4 (maybe estrogen?). and as free T4 is slightly low it might mean the thyroid is stuggling too, because even if TBG is high, a healthy thyroid should be able to raise T4 production to raise free T4.
I'm only speculating...let me know what you think!!
Ray
Posted by karaS on September 26, 2004, at 13:58:43
In reply to Re: TSH levels and thyroid illness? » karaS, posted by raybakes on September 26, 2004, at 12:50:40
Hi Ray,
Thanks for your input. See comments interspersed below.
> Hi Kara, looked at Simus' thyroid test results on one of the threads, and they don't seem too bad do they?
>
> I was wondering if, of the T3 result mentioned, what proportion of T3 was reverse T3? (when the deiodinase enzyme fails to take off the right iodine from T4, due to selenium or zinc deficiency or inflammation). Some research states that reverse T3 blocks the action of T3, so even though T3 is 'normal' a person will still get some or a lot of symptoms.
Reverse T3 could be an issue here. Hopefully, she has had that test done and can comment on that. But she and my neighbor DON'T have the hypo symptoms. That's the odd part.
> Simus' free T4 seemed to be on the low side of normal, and as it's free T4 levels that switch off TSH, maybe that's why TSH is on the high side of normal.
Both Simus and my neighbor had free T4 levels outside of normal. Simus' was about 6 if I recall correctly and my neighbor, who has no symptoms of hypothyroid, had a TSH of 21!
I wonder if there is too much thyroid binding globulin lowering free T4 (maybe estrogen?). and as free T4 is slightly low it might mean the thyroid is stuggling too, because even if TBG is high, a healthy thyroid should be able to raise T4 production to raise free T4.So a thyroid gland can put out enough T4 but it may be struggling to do so? So they don't feel hypo symptoms and T4 is in normal range, but still the thyroid is not healthy. (I wonder why they both say that they feel hyper type symptoms though.)
> I'm only speculating...let me know what you think!!
>
> Ray
Posted by raybakes on September 26, 2004, at 14:52:10
In reply to Re: TSH levels and thyroid illness? » raybakes, posted by karaS on September 26, 2004, at 13:58:43
(I wonder why they both say that they feel hyper type symptoms though.)
my only thoughts on that at the minute are that the adrenals may be overdriven in some cases and may mask thyroid problems? just a guess again..
Posted by karaS on September 26, 2004, at 18:00:46
In reply to Re: TSH levels and thyroid illness? » karaS, posted by raybakes on September 26, 2004, at 5:00:37
> >
> > I was wondering if you might have some insight >into a condition that two different people have >brought up to me recently. It relates to >thyroid problems. Both people have high TSh >levels and their doctors have told them that >they are hypothyroid and yet their symptoms are >more like those of people who are hyperthyroid. >One of these people is Simus who has posted on >this thread quite a bit and has gone into more >detail on her situation in those posts. The >other is my neighbor. She had been taking Armour >Thyroid but discontinued it a few months ago. >She feels great. She has lots of energy, her >concentration is fine and she is always hot when >I'm cold. If anything she acts hyper, not >hypo. She got a TSH and some other tests >recently and her level was 21. As opposed to >Simus, she tested positive for Hashimotos. Why >isn't she feeling awful with a TSH level that >high? She and Simus are both wondering if their >problem might have more to do with their >pituitary (although I don't see how that could >be given the thyroid antibodies in my neighbor's >case). Do you have any insights here? If so, >they'd be greatly appreciated.
>
> Just goes to show that people can't be slotted into specific thyroid diseases all the time!Oops, I realized that I haven't answered this one yet but first I want to thank you so much for all of this really valuable information and for going to so much trouble to get it!!! You are such a wonderful addition to this board. I particularly enjoy reading the posts between you and Larry. Much of it is over my head by I find it fascinating nonetheless.
> Looked up a few things and quite a few articles contradict, so I think there's a lot of confusion amongst the medical community too!
Simus found that to be the case as well when she tried to research the issue.
> Your neighbour could be borderline hashimoto's because the early stages of hashimoto's a lot of the thyroid hormones are normal. Also in the early stages of hashimoto's stress hormones are increased, so as long as the adrenals hold out, energy levels might be OK for a while. Looking at great smokies thyroid test, there are levels of thyroid antibodies that are within the normal range - does your neighbour know her levels?My neighbor has had thyroid problems for many years now. She probably had Hashimoto's for a long time as well. She does know her antibody levels but I don't have them handy. Given that she's had that issue for a long time, could it still be possible that the adrenals are overcompensating and that's why she has symptoms of hyper rather than hypothyroid (especially since she went off of her thyroid hormone about 4 months ago after taking it for many years)? I feel bad for her and Simus because they don't know how they should be treating this. They both feel on a gut level that they shouldn't be taking the thyroid hormones that their doctors are telling them to take.
> TSH regulation in the pituitary, seems to be affected by GABA and dopamine (and so P5P), prolactin, zinc, and fluoride. I'm sure there's others too! Zinc appears to be important in the synthesis and degradation of TSH, GABA and dopamine control the nervous system's regulation of TSH. Prolactin affects (not sure if raises or lowers) TSH, and prolactin is raised by stress and insulin. (A TSH secreting tumour also raises TSH but it appears to be extemely rare - dopamine and GABA would be very important in this case).So theoretically if one were taking a dopaminergic antidepressant, then that could increase TSH level? Also, you seem to be saying that stress could raise TSH level? If those are both true, then perhaps many people are being diagnosed as hypothyroid who may not really be. The implications are enormous if I'm interpreting this all correctly.
> Estogen is important too, as it regulates the levels of thyroid binding globulin - too much estrogen can bind too much free T4, and upset the feedback to the hypothalamus/pituitary.It really is much more complicated than just looking at a TSH level or even a panel of various thyroid levels, isn't it?
> TSH uses a messenger called cAMP (related to ATP) to pass it's message onto the thyroid. cAMP can be raised by coffee, tea and chocolate. Insulin lowers cAMP, so insulin resistance and blood sugar problems, may make TSH work inefficently, and so require more of it to stimulate the thyroid.The number of factors affecting this feedback loop is staggering!
>
> Thyroid peroxidase makes hydrogen peroxide to oxidise iodine for thyroxine. Excessive hydrogen peroxide has to be mopped up to prevent it damaging the thyroid, so anti-oxidants, particularly glutathione, are needed. It seems, low glutathione for any extended period of time, can lead to the initiation or exacerbation of hashimoto's - I'm deficient in glutathione as the 'genovations' detox profile showed I had a 'null' glutathione gene.Hmmmm. My neighbor did have a high thyroid peroxidase level...
I'd love to get the kind of testing you've had done. My guess is that I would discover something similar about myself and genetic deficiency(s).
> http://216.239.59.104/search?q=cache:mWf8awJVf2oJ:www.doctorphyto.com/Library/Health_Conditions/hypothyroidism.htm+camp+tsh&hl=en&ie=UTF-8
>
> http://endo.endojournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/128/2/1136
>
> Not sure I've kept to any straight answers...I'll look at some of Simus' replies later..Yeah, ya did!
> Ray
>I'm going to print this message out now for my neighbor. (I'll bet that Simus will be reading this and getting back to you also when she has a chance.)
Take care,
Kara
Posted by tealady on September 26, 2004, at 18:29:09
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog?- » tealady, posted by JLx on September 24, 2004, at 15:24:20
> Hi Jan,
Hiya JL,
>
> How are you doing these days? :)Actually I had a pretty good year mostly..not up to coping with working(still not enough energy or concentration..and can't stay awake long enough especially for more than one part day in a row!.....but pretty good. Just coming out of a bad couple of weeks though.
I think a few things at home.. ..plus a dentist appointment(AAARGH!), and then finding someone I emailed a bit on another forum with some similar symptoms just gave up, sigh.
http://groups.msn.com/KleineLevinSyndromeGroup/_notifications.msnw?type=msg&parent=1&item=587
Have you read thru the old threads here in your catch-up?
I set myself a goal last year of getting well enough to walk, drive again etc..and managed to get over to England for 6.5 weeks ..and Vanuatu for 3 weeks before that to visit son who is over there again working and diving for few weeks.
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20040613/msgs/367246.htmlLast year I wasn't sure if I was going to make it so I thought about what I really wanted to do before I went and tried to get well enough to do some of it. Kinda a goal to aim for.
I went back to uni after many years too to study this stuff..as my osmosis ability seems poor(grin)and I just can't understand these abstracts on pubmed!..
Just started one subject this semester(Biology..cells, molecules and stuff)..had to do high school chemistry and biology first. Wish I could handle more than one at a time..but I can't. Actually the week before last I found the one subject too much..but we've got a week off now..which I really NEEDED a couple of weeks ago. It's a catch22...if I don't study this stuff I don't think anyone else is going to work it out and I might as well just give up..but if I do , I push my health too much too and crash! I'm still hoping for some miracle ..and maybe I can return full time and then help others more too and maybe even get a job?
So now I'm understanding a bit of it.... and I'm just discovering a few more things wrong, sigh. Now I'm starting to get to know enough to really argue with the docs..present them with what IS normal and my body is doing and finally getting them listening. That's another thing I was depressed about actually...wish they would have listened to me years ago! They just see what the majority of people do and if you're different they don't want to know!
Well have to get some tests etc before I get myself too depressed I guess.>
> I haven't been here in a while.I know, I dropped off mostly myself and I'm still not really back <grin> , but I missed ya and had to say hello! I really appreciated your support before.
When last we spoke, I think, I was excited about starting a job.
Yes I remember. Seeing ya back now is kinda a mixed feeling thing! Great to hear from you to say hello again ..but I was kinda happy if you had just gone out there into the world and got better too!!!
I thought about you a few times. You're the ONLY person (out of hundreds) I've heard of that needs so much magnesium to feel good..and I've still got this question in the back of my mind as like WHY???. Everyone else needs somewhere between 1:1 and 2:1....really! So IF I ever find out WHY , I'll let ya know as I figure it's our differences that should be signposts to our problems.
When I posted the usual ratios of calcium : magnesium somewhere below I think , I was thinking ..except for Jlx (grins)
It was only seasonal (tax preparation) so it's over now, and while the work itself went ok, the stress really did me in. I thought I was on a fairly even keel at the time with the supplements I was taking, but everything went haywire almost immediately, and especially after I had a viral respiratory infection for a few weeks. It seemed like my supplements weren't working the same at all, my hormones were such that I was having periods again after going without for so many months that I thought I was finally in menopause. I was having carb cravings all of a sudden and I went off my diet regimen more and more as I just couldn't seem to get a handle on things. That only made things worse, unfortunately, and I started regaining the weight I'd lost last year. Then I hurt my foot so I couldn't do my usual walking as exercise
Yes I know, I finished off my bad dentist's day week before last by walking on a bag of shopping that contained shampoo and a light bulb and squishing out the shampoo everywhere and getting glass in my foot..that was after I walked on my glassed and squished them <g>.
http://forums.about.com/ab-thyroid/messages?msg=52183.55
Well that stopped me exercising too ..just about to start again... got fatter AaARGH!!
I lost a lot of weight when I started exercising over the year.
In England/Wales I tried to walk most days...it's really lovely for doing walks in..something different to see all the the time..gives one an incentive!!!
and I really went deeper into the doldrums and gained more weight. I'm just now coming out of the trough and trying to figure out what to do next.
>
> One interesting thing, I think I told you that I've had some thyroid problems (by body temp and other symptoms) and this winter I didn't! I'm guessing it was the tyrosine. I think the magnesium helped too, though it took quite a few months. Magnesium is still the magic formula to keep me from feeling suicidal too, no matter how far down I otherwise go. That is an enormous blessing.that's a blessing at least! Yes tyrosine may have done that..especially with a little magnesium..have you tried a little zinc too..like say 15mg at least a couple of times a week? Have you got copper or plastic plumbing? The zinc should help together with the magnesium and tyrosine especially if you have copper plumbing.
Also B6(P5P) brand..I think "NOW" makes a good one in the US about 10mg a day a least(probably more likely 20mg) together with a multiB of up around 10-25mg size?
If you haven't tried it yet the P5PB6 seems to help with depression a lot for me and should be taken with brekkie together with some magnesium and zinc. Are you taking your tyrosine before brekkie on an empty stomach on waking or after 5AMish if you wake for a toilet break?I've run out of (P5P)B6 a couple of weeks ago which I think is part of my problem..but iherb wants $40US postage alone!!! (For Any guys reading this ..the P5P form of B6 is needed more for women ..usually over 35 years of age.. most men and younger girls seem to be able to handle ordinary B6.)
>
> I'm pretty bummed otherwise that I could go so completely off course in such a short period of time. I still feel better on my worst days than I ever felt on drugs, but it feels pretty daunting to have to keep on experimenting and tweaking these things. I'm also now convinced that it's not just the supplements but the diet changes AND the supplements working together that make the biggest difference....it all is just so much work.
>
> Waaah, I want to be normal! ;)Waaah, me too (hugs while wailing this)
Jan
>
Posted by karaS on September 26, 2004, at 19:00:38
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog?- » karaS, posted by JLx on September 25, 2004, at 20:57:07
> Seems like some of the best info is in the long threads, not to mention that you and Simus were pretty funny. :)
Thanks. We did have a good time on some of those posts!
> > I'm sure that my cortisol is all out of whack too. Might as well be a morning person with screwed up cortisol than a night owl with same problem, eh?
>
> Well, if you have a day job anyway! In "The Cortisol Connection" Talbott described the normal rise and fall cycle throughout day and how we screw it up by our tendency to have a lot of activity and stress in our evening hours. I recall him saying that he took theanine himself at a certain time each day to try to counteract that. I'd like to try that some day.Exactly. Trying to fit into the day time work hours schedule has always been a challenge for me. I really need to read up on the HPA axis and cortisol as I always seem to keep coming back to that issue. I think I remember reading in a post here that l-theanine exacerbated someone's depression after a while. Something to do with serotonin I think . I could be wrong.
> Have you ever taken anything specifically for hormone changes? I took a herbal women's formula for years and it was helpful, probably because of the DHEA. Last year I tried both pregnenolone and progesterone. The progesterone was very disappointing after I had read such good things about it. Aside from one tantalizing day of feeling like I had a lot of zip and spring in my step, it was awful.I used progesterone cream for a short while. I don't remember it doing much at all. Now I'm taking maca but nothing else. I'm afraid of taking hormones really. For one thing I had fibroids which were estrogen dependent.
> > Yes, sugar is very stimulating for me also and gives me hypoglycemia as well as contributing to restless leg syndrome.
>
> By that do you mean vague little jumpiness feelings in your legs? When I get those, I usually try magnesium and if that doesn't work, I add a little calcium, and if they don't work, I add a little potassium. Some version usually does the trick.That sounds like it might be RLS. Some people have it really bad and can't sleep because of it. They usually get prescribed a dopaminergic drug like Mirapex.
> >I do have a light box though I haven't been using it much.
>
> I saw your post elswhere about that after I posted. I was surprised to see that you didn't find much value in the Sunrizer....I've always wanted one of those because I thought it sounded very body-friendly to be woken up gradually with light.I expected miracles and no one thing probably could have helped my poor sleep habits. It might be worth trying again someday whem I've improved other things.
> Have you ever seen this site http://www.cet.org/default.htm?AutoMEQ.htm~main and it's Morningness - Eveningness Questionnaire? Before I read that, I was thinking that I was using my light visor early enough in the AM but now I think not.I'll have to read it after I finish this post otherwise I'll lose what I've typed so far. It sounds like you're saying it's best to be used really early in the morning. Is there no end to the torture?
> >This did help a lot. It's maintaining that schedule that is the really hard part because my natural instinct is to go to be later and later and later on each progressive night.
>
> Oh, I know what you mean. I still do that too. The only difference now is that it doesn't seem so bad if I have to get up in the morning because I only sleep 6 hours instead of 8.I was (am?) really much worse. I would go to sleep at 6:00 or 7:00 in the morning and then I'd get a call to work at a temp job the following day. Then I'd end up with little or no sleep because I'd have to be getting up around the time I'm used to going to sleep. Is it any wonder I couldn't think straight on these jobs? DUH!
>
> > I really should try shutting off the computer and the TV by 8:00 PM. Of course I'd be cutting off two of my very few pleasures left but that's another story...
>
> I'm not sure the TV counts so much as long as you watch it in a darkened room, unless you have one of those monster TVs maybe. What I notice when I get in the habit of getting to bed early, or when I use my light visor in the morning early enough, is that when about 10 PM rolls around, I start feeling just desperate to sleep. That's really pretty cool then to just fall asleep right away after a near lifetime of insomnia.Wow, that is way cool! I'll definitely have to start using my light box regularly at an early time.
>
> > I haven't started my anti-Candida program yet. Too many plans and too little motivation.
>
> Yeah, I hear ya. I could just kick myself for getting on the sugar and carb bandwagon again after having done so much of the anti-Candida effort last fall.It's so hard to keep that up indefinitely. I think realistically you have to accept that there are going to be times that you'll fall off of the bandwagon. You just have to discipline yourself to get back on after that has happened.
> > I've never heard of pantethine before. Sounds like it's worth a try.
>
> Me neither. I think I'm going to get some as it sounds like it might neutralize some of the ill effects of the yeast, even without the anti-Candida measures.
>
> > The reason I think this is that I have cholinergic urticaria. Larry mentioned that this is thought to be caused by incomplete protein metabolism. That might help explain my depression as well (if there isn't enough of the amino acids available in my body to make neurotransmitters) and it would explain why I have aboslutely no reaction to taking tyrosine supplementation - even in very large dosages.
>
> I noticed that on the other thread. Have you tried the...bromelain, was it?I did but I was feeling nauseous so I stopped it. It may have been due to these new multivitamins I'm taking but I stopped other things to try to figure it out. I'll have to try it again when my system settles down.
> > I've recently had luck with taking extra magnesium. I swear I have much less brain fog the following day after the evening I've taken it. It seems so hard to believe that it could help so much. I'm still testing it but there's no doubt in my mind that it's helping.
>
> Magnesium is great stuff. No matter how crappy I feel, or how slipshod I am not taking helpful supplements or watching my diet, I've found that if I at least still take magnesium, then I don't get the extreme "hate myself" blues and suicidal ideation/feelings that always before characterized "the pit" of depression for me. That's a big deal as I used to not only feel suicidal but also beat myself up for it...in that inimitable depressive style. ;)Yup. Know what ya mean.
> I started taking magnesium after I ran across George Eby's site about it. I know you're familiar, most people here are by now I think, but here's the link anyway for lurkers: http://www.coldcure.com/html/dep.html I found that linked on a British psychiatric journal's site, and when I asked my psychiatrist about whether he thought magnesium might help me, he responded negatively. Fortunately, I didn't listen to him!
Actually, I was only recently introduced to that site. I haven't read everything yet but lots of good info. Re: your pdoc's response: if the drug reps aren't pushing it at their doors, then they don't seem to have a clue!
> > It's just maddening! You said something so similar to Simus when she wrote: "As if anyone would choose to live like this!"
>
> That's the wonderfulness of coming here, people understand.Absolutely. I had no one to talk to about any of these issues. This site has been a God send.
> > Yes, I trust them because Larry recommended them even though I haven't placed any orders with them yet. How long does it take to get your order? Do you live in the States or Canada?
>
> I live not too far from Simus, depending on what she considers "central" Michigan. I am a bit northwest of Grand Rapids. I don't recall specifically how long it took for my BAC orders, but I'm sure it was something reasonable like a week.What a coincidence how all of us (you, me and Simus) either live in Michigan or lived in Michigan. I lived there for at least 9 years.
Take care,
Kara
Posted by tealady on September 26, 2004, at 21:06:53
In reply to Excuse me for elbowing my way in here.........., posted by TeeJay on September 25, 2004, at 18:54:18
Hiya TJ,
>
> No great method to my approach, I just had a look at what I had lying around still (I hate chucking expensive supps away) and decided to start taking a few things.>
> My regimen is this (and has been now for 2 weeks ish). At night before bed and all at once, selenium 200mcg, zinc 15mg, B6 100mg, ginkgo biloba 120mg and lithium orotate 120mg....in the morning I've been taking 500mg n acetyl cysteine.
>
> I've actually been feeling a little more motivated, but extremely tired and very emotional and "wired" its making me question if anything i'm taking may be the cause. Also feeling very "disconnected" at the moment too and extremely short tempered and irritable.
Hmmm well mostly I think it's best to start off with just one thing(or group of things) at a time, otherwise I can't tell what is doing what.I know it's slower, and sometimes I feel like desperate....but unfortunately too many things at once usually just means some counteract the others and ya just can't tell..except ya feel ...well pretty much about like ya just described..
>>
>> The reason I ask on this thread, is Jan thinks I may well have quite a few symptoms of hypothyroidism
not exactly...I just think a lot of ME, fibromyalgia and hypothyroid symptoms are pretty similar..for a lot it may be something stopping optimal thyroid hormone function too...not necessarily that their thyroids are stuffed though>
>>and having recently started the selenium I wondered if it might be aggravating my symptoms?
Well here's something on selenium where you live
Selenium in the UK
http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm199899/cmselect/cmagric/233/233app30.htmNote this bit...in part6(ii) "Bulls have a higher demand for selenium than cows—it is a male mammal requirement—because they lose a fraction of their selenium reserves with each ejaculation" <g>
which I figure means all guys in the UK need at least 100mcg selenium daily (due to their soil deficit in the source of their food..eg wheat is now sourced from EU rather than Canada(I think)
so 200mcg to start out to build up for a few months..and then it depends <g> ...no more than 200mcg though as one can get too much a well..and too much also makes one more hypo in symptoms
Hmm I wonder if ya can tell from selenium intake requirements..kidding!so selenium seems to be a good thing to start out on...every person in the UK probably needs to take some.
Selenium in the UK
http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm199899/cmselect/cmagric/233/233app30.htmNote this bit...in part6(ii) "Bulls have a higher demand for selenium than cows—it is a male mammal requirement—because they lose a fraction of their selenium reserves with each ejaculation" <g>
which I figure means all guys in the UK need at least 100mcg selenium daily (due to their soil deficit in the source of their food..eg wheat is now sourced from EU rather than Canada(I think)
so 200mcg to start out to build up..and then it depends<g> ...no more than 200mcg though as one can get too much a well..and too much also makes one more hypo in symptoms
Hmm I wonder if ya can tell from selenium intake requirements..kidding!
So selenium seems to be a good thing to start out on...every person in the UK probably needs to take some.>
>>If anyone has any thoughts on anything else I'm taking and how it may be affecting me, I'd be interested to hear their views too.
Well I hope ya get other responses as I don't know anything about n acetyl cysteine and I've never tried ginkgo biloba (although I've heard somewhere ya shouldn't take it if you may get pregnant<g>) or lithium orotate.
RE lithium..I don't think I'd be trying that with the others to start with as the effects are may be counteracting the others...it can cause hypo symptomsIf it was me ..I think I'd just continue with the selenium for a couple of weeks and see how you feel... (if you get a metallic taste immediately after taking you could be on too much, but I doubt it)
then if you have copper pipes in your plumbing add in the zinc for the next week or so..and see how you are again (15mg per day should be a good level for starters too)..then add in the B6 for the next couple of weeks (but maybe only 25mg or 50 mg) and take only with a multiB(or any multi ..can have C as well or a few low dose minerals too) ..with levels varying between say 10 and 25 of each for strength guidance?)
I'd be taking the selenium, zinc and B6 /multi in the morning with brekkie...they tend to be more on the energising side to the sedating side.
I'll dig up some posts later on the lithium...
Jan
Posted by tealady on September 26, 2004, at 21:10:33
In reply to Re: Excuse me for elbowing my way in here.......... » TeeJay, posted by tealady on September 26, 2004, at 21:06:53
Posted by tealady on September 26, 2004, at 21:40:33
In reply to Excuse me for elbowing my way in here.........., posted by TeeJay on September 25, 2004, at 18:54:18
Hi again
Here is something on lithium for starters
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20030818/msgs/253241.html
and the following replyMany people on lithium for long periods end up hypothyroid..some on the thyroid board take it as they have too much thyroid hormones, but I don't think that is really the best solution..but they are already on it
Re the orotate form..I asked lar about this somewhere...
he wan't too happy about orotates in general I think
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20030902/msgs/256465.htmlStill others seem to like it..I think (milenium9ui)Bob is taking it...not sure though...probably better to get feedback from those who do take it..some I think Barabaracat? swear by it..just giving the negative side I guess
also if you could get some magnesium.(.I got a magnesium citrate in England)....that would be the next thing to add in after the B6/multi ....it fits really well as a group of zinc, B6 (together wth a multi) and magnesium. They kinda work together. Magnesium should help you feel less edgy..its kinda a relaxant, but it also helps the ion pumps and some enzymes(I think) work better too ..so it helps with energy as well.Hope this helps some,
Jan (sorry about my sense of humour)
Posted by tealady on September 27, 2004, at 3:24:19
In reply to Excuse me for elbowing my way in here.........., posted by TeeJay on September 25, 2004, at 18:54:18
users
http://forums.about.com/ab-thyroid/messages?msg=61133.2
http://forums.about.com/ab-thyroid/messages?msg=56774.28 (see he talks about small dosing of lithium carbonate though)http://forums.about.com/ab-thyroid/messages?msg=56774.29
http://forums.about.com/ab-thyroid/messages?msg=56774.30
http://forums.about.com/ab-thyroid/messages?msg=56774.31 (leslie's hubby's posts)
and follow thread thru a bit for a lot more stuff on thoughts on how lithium might be working
http://forums.about.com/ab-thyroid/messages?msg=58465.47 more on using lithium (Bob)
http://forums.about.com/ab-thyroid/messages?msg=57294.166
http://forums.about.com/ab-thyroid/messages?msg=57294.169
http://forums.about.com/ab-thyroid/messages?msg=57294.176probably plently of stuff on this forum too if you do a google search I guess
Run across any bears? Might be some in the US and Canada? Do they have any in Europe at all?
Jan
Posted by tealady on September 27, 2004, at 5:34:46
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog?- » tealady, posted by JLx on September 24, 2004, at 15:24:20
http://forums.about.com/ab-thyroid/messages?msg=61897.1
re licorice..be careful I'm not sure exactly what it does..it does increase both cortisol and estrogen and ACTH? too I think(probably most adrenal stuff)..but it also inhibits something..and stuffs ya up if ya take it long term..like longer than a month or so..or in highish doses..or both you could end up in ER.
I'll look it up soon.Maybe Lar could help with what its problem is exactly, I know I never really figured it out.
I do know you need to increase your potaasium intake though.Jan (had to add something to the jokes to make relevant to alter)
Posted by TeeJay on September 27, 2004, at 6:43:21
In reply to More stuff on lithium..interesting read from other » TeeJay, posted by tealady on September 27, 2004, at 3:24:19
"Run across any bears? Might be some in the US and Canada? Do they have any in Europe at all?"
Nah, not seen any! Might be the odd rampant englishman growling around theough if he keeps up with the selenium supplements ;-))
I hear ya about the magnesium and ate mag glycinate tabs like smarties for some months a couple of years back but with little effect (couldnt even seem to find my tolerance level of them either (took 6 400mg tabs often with no effect)) also tried it with a a heavyish dose of niacinamide too and not much difference. Maybe the results may be slightly different now I dont smoke perhaps?
Thanks for the info Jan.
I've run out of the ginkgo now so will continue with what I have for a few days and then drop one supplement out every few days until I find which one seems to be causing the problem.
I have a sneaky feeling its the lithium, but oddly it would mean I'm having ANOTHER contrary reaction to a supplement given I currently feel mega edgy and "tight" and feel as though I could burst into tears at any moment......all things i thought lithium was supposed to address. Not only that though, but one 120mg capsule is rather a low dose too.
Its us english........wierdness is in our genes I think ;-))
Thanks again to everyone for their helpful comments so far, much appreciated.
Phil
Posted by raybakes on September 27, 2004, at 10:06:45
In reply to Re: TSH levels and thyroid illness? » raybakes, posted by karaS on September 26, 2004, at 18:00:46
Thanks Kara, I've learnt so much over the last few days, it's been good fun!
The great smokies sample thyroid report is interesting to read - the person on the sample has a TSH of 21 too! (need acrobat to read it)
http://www.gsdl.com/images/reportpdf/compthyroid.pdf
> So theoretically if one were taking a dopaminergic antidepressant, then that could increase TSH level? Also, you seem to be saying that stress could raise TSH level? If those are both true, then perhaps many people are being diagnosed as hypothyroid who may not really be. The implications are enormous if I'm interpreting this all correctly.
Looking at the great smokies report, it seems that dopamine will decrease TSH, but as it regulates other pituitary hormones, things might not be as straightforward!The report also talks about primary, secondary and tertiary thyroid diseases, depending on the factors involved!
The link between estrogen and thyroid is interesting, particularly because hypothyroid increases breast cancer risk. Have you heard of bad gut bacteria not allowing bile to hold onto estrogen, so estrogen continues to recirculate to dangerous levels? Excessive use of antibiotics, might predispose women to dangerous levels of estrogen in later life. Calcium d-glucarate (thorne research) is able to bind onto excess estrogen, and detoxify it. I'm sure xenoestrogens from plastics and pesticides will be a problem too.Like you, I found tyrosine had no effect whatsoever, but the n acetyl tyrosine and biopterin combination in norival make a massive difference! Yesterday I took it and felt relaxing warmth shoot down my spine!
Still reading the book on autism - the book lists the gene errors I have as individiually being risk factors for autism - and I've got them both!
They mention that children with these errors should not have vaccinations, and should keep well away from mercury! I think high functioning aspergers could describe me fairly well, so all the information is really useful.Ray
Posted by tealady on September 28, 2004, at 6:01:48
In reply to Re: Excuse me for elbowing my way in here.......... » TeeJay, posted by tealady on September 26, 2004, at 21:06:53
Posted by tealady on September 28, 2004, at 6:41:55
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog?- Larry » tealady, posted by raybakes on September 24, 2004, at 13:30:45
> Hi Jan, perhaps it's the noradrenaline that tyrosine is helping synthesize, that is helping with your pain? More from Dr Lowe's website...
>
> "Too little thyroid hormone regulation of other cells in the brain stem decreases the release in the spinal cord of a nerve transmitting substance called "noradrenaline." The decreased noradrenaline in turn reduces the amount of opiates (morphine-like chemicals) released into the spinal cord. These opiates normally reduce the number of sensory impulses that enter the spinal cord and brain stem. When too few of the opiates are released, more sensory impulses make their way into the spinal cord and brain stem. As a result, the patient's perception of pain is heightened.
>
> The combination of high substance P and low noradrenaline (and hence low opiates) causes the patient to perceive pain in the absence of painful stimuli. For example, the patient might perceive as painful the mere movement of some joints. She might experience pain from the pressure on her underside when she is sits or lies on a well-padded surface. And her pain threshold might be so low that she experiences aches and pains despite no apparent stimulus such as movement or pressure."
>
> Ray
>
> http://66.102.9.104/search?q=cache:3-THWVPX1AsJ:www.drlowe.com/QandA/askdrlowe/fmshypot.htm+pain+threshold+noradrenaline&hl=enThanks Ray,
That sounds like one possible explanation. The effect of tyrosine is what I think would be opiate-like(especially when I tried 200mg one morning)..only I haven't tried them.
Maybe I need noradrenaline?I've never heard of this substance P..and
also I have NO idea of the difference between noradrenaline (or norepinephrine ) and adrenaline (or epinephrine ). Every thing I read seems to just mention them mostly together ..or maybe call them different things in different parts of the body. I'm sure they are different though..just confusing for me!
I do know I can't tolerate stress well..like even just a difficult conversation you don't really want to face...eg like some one you employ who is doing a job you don't think is really right..like say my kid's orthodontist. After each visit I'd just crash for a week or so...literally just make it home and collapse into almost a coma (this was before I went onto thyroid meds)..
I'm not sure what exactly was going on with me.
I think it was related to adrenals.
Then later when I went onto thyroid meds I noticed anything that upset me similarly (didn't take much) I'd start shaking violently, vomiting etc before crashing...that's when I realised I had to take cortisol to counteract whatever was happening. I thought maybe adrenaline was going too high and maybe my adrenals couldn't automatically produce the extra cortisol in stressful situations to cope with the increased adrenaline?Anyway tyrosine fits in there ..somewhere! <grin> as it allows me to "cope" with situations a bit better.
Thanks for your thoughts, Jan
PS. I've been researching "thyroid" stuff for about 3 years now(been on thyroid hormones that long)..so I'm kinda mostly "up" on thyroid hormones...but I'm sure lost on adrenals, kidneys, liver etc <grin>.
RT3 is usually raised in nonthyroidal illness...as in hospital patients. The body decides it does not want a lot of normal T3 around for some reason in illness...maybe that forces a person to rest? as their bodies need the rest to recover?
My RT3 was in normal range...but then I never got a T3 to compare it with...can't get one in Oz..only FT3.
My anti TPO are over 2000 in August...ended up taking some cortisol for a few days...it feels like it lowers the antibodies...but it sure isn't something I recommend doing..or want to do too much.
If I don't take the cortisol when my antibodies are raging I partly lose my vision...as well as feel rotten..I can actually feel them in my thyroid..feels a bit like tonsillitis in my thyroid.
At present it's just a scratchy feeling there.
I have been diagnosed with thyroiditis.
Actually, strangely I find penicillin helps too(took a course of that too)..also with my daughters psoriasis..same deal..although I "know" viruses and bacteria are different<grin>I never knew about interleukin..I've heard the name before, but I get lost...seems to be something I need to investigate.
How did you find out about your genetic defect?Nice to "meet" you, been reading some of your posts,
Jan
Posted by Simus on September 28, 2004, at 7:55:46
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog?- Larry » tealady, posted by raybakes on September 24, 2004, at 13:30:45
> Hi Jan, perhaps it's the noradrenaline that tyrosine is helping synthesize, that is helping with your pain? More from Dr Lowe's website...
>
> "Too little thyroid hormone regulation of other cells in the brain stem decreases the release in the spinal cord of a nerve transmitting substance called "noradrenaline." The decreased noradrenaline in turn reduces the amount of opiates (morphine-like chemicals) released into the spinal cord. These opiates normally reduce the number of sensory impulses that enter the spinal cord and brain stem. When too few of the opiates are released, more sensory impulses make their way into the spinal cord and brain stem. As a result, the patient's perception of pain is heightened.
>
> The combination of high substance P and low noradrenaline (and hence low opiates) causes the patient to perceive pain in the absence of painful stimuli. For example, the patient might perceive as painful the mere movement of some joints. She might experience pain from the pressure on her underside when she is sits or lies on a well-padded surface. And her pain threshold might be so low that she experiences aches and pains despite no apparent stimulus such as movement or pressure."
>
> Ray
>
> http://66.102.9.104/search?q=cache:3-THWVPX1AsJ:www.drlowe.com/QandA/askdrlowe/fmshypot.htm+pain+threshold+noradrenaline&hl=enHello to you both. I just read this post which led me to read the article by Dr. Lowe cited at the end of the post. Would you mind if I butted in and threw in my 2 cents here? In this article, Dr. Lowe says, "A subset of patients with thyroid hormone deficiency caused by Hashimoto's has a lowered pain threshold."
In my research on adrenal fatigue, I have read more than once that autoimmune disorders such as Hashimoto's Disease can be triggered by adrenal fatigue. Also, one of the symptoms of adrenal fatigue is unexplained pain. Therefore, without knowing any of the other facts here, I would question if the "subset of patients" referred to by Dr. Lowe might actually have adrenal fatigue. Hmmm...
When I was at my worst with adrenal fatigue, I had a lot of pain in my lower back. Since I have been treating the adrenal fatigue and have seen great improvements, the lower back pain has just disappeared.
I am not an expert by any means, but I just thought I would throw that out for food for though...
God bless,
Simus
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