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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 17 of 17. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by sb417 on October 29, 2003, at 23:21:34
Must Calcium and Magnesium be taken in a specific ratio? Some Calcium and Magnesium supplements are sold as one tablet (for example, Calcium citrate and Magnesium oxide, citrate), but if one takes Magnesium glycinate separately, is there a particular amount of Calcium that should be taken with it?
Posted by JLx on November 2, 2003, at 17:17:46
In reply to Calcium:Magnesium ratio, posted by sb417 on October 29, 2003, at 23:21:34
> Must Calcium and Magnesium be taken in a specific ratio? Some Calcium and Magnesium supplements are sold as one tablet (for example, Calcium citrate and Magnesium oxide, citrate), but if one takes Magnesium glycinate separately, is there a particular amount of Calcium that should be taken with it?
I think it depends on the individual, what you're trying to achieve, and perhaps also how much of either you're eating in the rest of the diet.
I used to eat a lot of calcium rich foods, and was getting almost no magnesium. I didn't realize how much of a problem this was until I read this site: "Rapid Recovery From Depression Using Magnesium Treatment" http://www.coldcure.com/html/dep.html
I eliminated most calcium, started supplementing magnesium and though now I find I need a little calcium, it is a very little. I took 250 mg yesterday with equal magnesium for instance, and felt like I was going nuts until I took 300mg more magnesium.
My impression is that the prevailing wind is blowing towards calcium and magnesium in equal ratio, but some still say 2 to 1 calcium. I've also seen advised the reverse, 2 to 1 magnesium, for PMS.
Posted by sb417 on November 3, 2003, at 0:12:34
In reply to Re: Calcium:Magnesium ratio » sb417, posted by JLx on November 2, 2003, at 17:17:46
JLx,
Thanks for your help. I looked for the ratios on several multivitamin bottles, and they seem to vary. Centrum has 162mg of Calcium to 100 mg of Magnesium, but the label doesn't indicate the forms of Calcium and Magnesium (citrate, gluconate, glycinate, etc.). I wonder whether the form determines what the ratio should be?
Posted by Jai on November 3, 2003, at 6:59:21
In reply to Re: Calcium:Magnesium ratio » JLx, posted by sb417 on November 3, 2003, at 0:12:34
The story about Calcium and Magnesium is not finished. There are so many conflicting ideas of what is right. so I guess you have to write your own story. My story goes like this: I have tried 2:1 calcium to mag. but that actually made me slightly ill. I have tried equal amounts of calcium to mag. and that was better but still problems. I have finally realized that with all the heart disease in my family (every ancestor in my family has died from heart disease) that the most important mineral for me is magnesium. I am still experimenting with this combination: so now I have introduced a food based cal/mag but I also take mag 250mg to 500mg per night. It's hard for our bodies to take in minerals. But I can't do the usual recommended dose of 1,000mg. calcium. My understanding is that calcium needs magnesium to function so if you don't have enough mag. in your pill/diet the body will take it from your body's reserves.
Posted by JLx on November 3, 2003, at 12:28:31
In reply to Re: Calcium:Magnesium ratio » JLx, posted by sb417 on November 3, 2003, at 0:12:34
> JLx,
>
> Thanks for your help. I looked for the ratios on several multivitamin bottles, and they seem to vary. Centrum has 162mg of Calcium to 100 mg of Magnesium, but the label doesn't indicate the forms of Calcium and Magnesium (citrate, gluconate, glycinate, etc.). I wonder whether the form determines what the ratio should be?If they don't list it, I'd guess that it's probably a cheap form, and unlikely to be as absorbable as some others.
This is the problem, as I understand it, with many cal-mag supplements -- the calcium is an absorbable form, but the magnesium often is mg oxide, which is not.
Posted by JLx on November 3, 2003, at 12:42:00
In reply to Re: Calcium:Magnesium ratio, posted by Jai on November 3, 2003, at 6:59:21
I agree; it takes some experimentation and the "right" amount may vary much more wildly with the individual than we've been led to believe.
Though it's changing somewhat, most of the info has been pushing calcium with magnesium to potentiate the calcium, as if magnesium isn't important in it's own right.
I took 250 mg of calcium with an equal amount of mg the other day and my mood really went haywire. I was crying and arguing with someone like a crazed person. I took 300 mg more magnesium, and calmed back down again.
Apparently, I can only now tolerate very small amounts of calcium. (I used to take a lot more...and had calcium kidney stone to show for it!)
> The story about Calcium and Magnesium is not finished. There are so many conflicting ideas of what is right. so I guess you have to write your own story. My story goes like this: I have tried 2:1 calcium to mag. but that actually made me slightly ill. I have tried equal amounts of calcium to mag. and that was better but still problems. I have finally realized that with all the heart disease in my family (every ancestor in my family has died from heart disease) that the most important mineral for me is magnesium. I am still experimenting with this combination: so now I have introduced a food based cal/mag but I also take mag 250mg to 500mg per night. It's hard for our bodies to take in minerals. But I can't do the usual recommended dose of 1,000mg. calcium. My understanding is that calcium needs magnesium to function so if you don't have enough mag. in your pill/diet the body will take it from your body's reserves.
Posted by tealady on November 3, 2003, at 19:46:54
In reply to Re: Calcium:Magnesium ratio » sb417, posted by JLx on November 2, 2003, at 17:17:46
> > Must Calcium and Magnesium be taken in a specific ratio? Some Calcium and Magnesium supplements are sold as one tablet (for example, Calcium citrate and Magnesium oxide, citrate), but if one takes Magnesium glycinate separately, IS there a particular amount of Calcium that should be taken with it?
usual for an "average" person is about 2:1 calcium to magnesium
>
> I think it depends on the individual, what you're trying to achieve, and perhaps also how much of either you're eating in the rest of the diet.sure does.
just want to state tht I don't agree completely with Eby on calcium.
With me if I don't get enough calcium my muscles will go into cramps, especially during the night and on first awakening.
Calcium levels normally are kept at a normal level by parathyroid hormone, vitamin D and calcitonin. But even when we have optimal levels of these hormones, most of us need supplemental calcium. For those in pregnancy the need for calcium is increased. Calcium metabolism is off in pregnancy and the baby's calcium requirements are met at the mothers' expense.
>
> I used to eat a lot of calcium rich foods, and was getting almost no magnesium. I didn't realize how much of a problem this was until I read this site: "Rapid Recovery From Depression Using Magnesium Treatment" http://www.coldcure.com/html/dep.html
Jlx, my view is that some people can need no extra calcium in supplements , but they DO need the calcium in foods. I don't think you should be eliminating these on purpose, if that is what you are doing.>
> I eliminated most calcium, started supplementing magnesium and though now I find I need a little calcium, it is a very little. I took 250 mg yesterday with equal magnesium for instance, and felt like I was going nuts until I took 300mg more magnesium.
>
> My impression is that the prevailing wind is blowing towards calcium and magnesium in equal ratio, but some still say 2 to 1 calcium. I've also seen advised the reverse, 2 to 1 magnesium, for PMS.PMS symptoms are helped with extra magnesium and B vitamins helps with this, as does avoiding sugars.
It's thought we can't absorb more than 1000mg calicum and 500mg magnesium..so if one needs more you have to take the magnesium in divided doses.
What I used to do, was take a calc/mag tablet in a 2:1 ratio at bedtime and extra magnesium with breakfast and lunch when more magnesium was indicted...usually I think in a MgCl form (or mag sulphate)I take magnesium carbonate , but I do dissolve it first..if you mix it with ascorbic acid it dissolves and fizzes..then I drink it down. This is only when I am taking ascorbic acid though.
Otherwise magnesium carbonate or calcium carbonate will dissolve when it hits your stomach acid...but it may reduce your acidity (as in TUMS which is calcium carbonate)..so as long as you want to reduce acidity, or your mag carbonate is balanced..say with some ascorbic acid or possibly a citric acid in the tablet(a citrate?? not sure )..then it should be fine. There are sure to be other forms that are acidic that may balance out the carbonate in tablets...
I don't cope with all the fillers /binders usually, so I just make my own combos..or I add to creams too.Hope this helps ,
Jan
Posted by sb417 on November 3, 2003, at 23:41:37
In reply to Re: Calcium:Magnesium ratio » sb417, posted by JLx on November 3, 2003, at 12:28:31
> >> This is the problem, as I understand it, >with many cal-mag supplements -- the calcium is >an absorbable form, but the magnesium often is >mg oxide, which is not.
>I just checked a bottle of Calcium Magnesium citrate, made by Solgar. The Calcium is listed as 1000mg of "Calcium citrate," and the Magnesium is listed as 500mg of "Magnesium oxide, citrate." I guess the calcium is pretty well absorbed, but the magnesium is not (?).
Posted by JLx on November 4, 2003, at 7:54:02
In reply to Re: Calcium:Magnesium ratio » JLx, posted by sb417 on November 3, 2003, at 23:41:37
> I just checked a bottle of Calcium Magnesium citrate, made by Solgar. The Calcium is listed as 1000mg of "Calcium citrate," and the Magnesium is listed as 500mg of "Magnesium oxide, citrate." I guess the calcium is pretty well absorbed, but the magnesium is not (?).That's my understanding. I have the idea that magnesium and calcium are both potentiating and antagonistic too, meaning that each benefits from the other while also counteracting the other. But I could be wrong about that as I don't really understand the chemistry involved.
In my experience -- or maybe just in my body -- calcium overpowers magnesium. In the above combo, I would think that I am getting primarily calcium, and not the magnesium.
I've concluded this from the fact that I used to take cal-mag supplements but yet wound up magnesium deficient and overloaded by calcium to the point of a calcium kidney stone.
Posted by Jai on November 4, 2003, at 8:20:43
In reply to Re: Calcium:Magnesium ratio » sb417, posted by JLx on November 4, 2003, at 7:54:02
I am not a chemist either. All I know is my bodies reaction to what I take. The last time I took a bone density test the woman was surprised at my age. My bones are in very good shape and I have been using primarily magnesium. I played with veggie source of calcium, Gaia Calcium Tinture and Flora Calcium/mag liquid. But I have not seriously used hardcore calcium. Calcium makes me feel slightly ill and my joints are stiff and unhappy. Magnesium makes my body purr.
Posted by JLx on November 4, 2003, at 9:50:32
In reply to Re: Calcium:Magnesium ratio,,,sb417 » JLx, posted by tealady on November 3, 2003, at 19:46:54
> just want to state tht I don't agree completely with Eby on calcium.
> With me if I don't get enough calcium my muscles will go into cramps, especially during the night and on first awakening.
> Calcium levels normally are kept at a normal level by parathyroid hormone, vitamin D and calcitonin. But even when we have optimal levels of these hormones, most of us need supplemental calcium.Well, Eby mentions the muscle thing too being an indication of needing calcium again, and certainly isn't advising totally against calcium....just points out the drawbacks to our having calcium overload and magnesium deficiency. Which certainly was me and my reaction to 250 mg calcium the other day tells me I'm still sensitive to it.
> Jlx, my view is that some people can need no extra calcium in supplements , but they DO need the calcium in foods. I don't think you should be eliminating these on purpose, if that is what you are doing.
I've eliminated dairy for more reasons than it's loaded with calcium. And I just don't like the high calcium veggies like kale.
I don't worry about calcium in other foods like nuts or whatever and I'm drinking tap water again, which is very hard in my town, so I'm getting some calcium there.
Posted by JLx on November 4, 2003, at 10:04:57
In reply to Re: Calcium:Magnesium ratio, posted by Jai on November 4, 2003, at 8:20:43
>Calcium makes me feel slightly ill and my joints are stiff and unhappy. Magnesium makes my body purr.
I don't think I'm up to "purr" yet, but I sure do feel better since I've started taking it and no calcium. :)
Haven't had a bone density test either, but I think it's indicative of our having been lead down the garden path somewhat on the calcium thing that the countries who get the most calcium have the higher fracture rates!
http://www.molliekatzen.com/harvard3.php
REPORT FROM THE
HARVARD SCHOOL OF PUBLIC HEALTH NUTRITION ROUNDTABLE
Section 3: Calcium: Too Much of a Good Thing?A number of studies have been done to examine the relationship between calcium and bones. A study by Mark Hegsted, Professor Emeritus of Nutrition at the Harvard School of Public Health, compared the rates of calcium intake to the risk of hip fracture by country. Surprisingly, he found that countries with low intakes of calcium actually had lower rates of hip fracture and countries with high intakes of calcium had higher rates of fracture.
More recent studies have looked at the relationship between calcium and bone density ... except for a small, one-time benefit, higher daily intake of calcium did not appreciably strengthen bones.
Close to home, the Nurse's Health Study revealed information about the relationship between milk consumption and rates of fracture. Investigator Diane Feskanich looked at patterns of milk consumption from 1980 to 1992 and found that the nurses who drank milk regularly did not have lower rates of fracture than nurses who did not drink milk. ...
Calcium intake also poses important health questions for men. Some evidence suggests that high calcium intake may increase the risk of prostate cancer. Recent studies have shown that in countries where the consumption of milk is highest, such as Scandinavia and North America, rates of prostate cancer are also high. By contrast, in the Asian countries where per capita milk consumption is low, the rates of prostate cancer are low. Furthermore, a summary of studies of prostate cancer shows a repeated association between consumption of dairy products and an elevated risk of developing prostate cancer. For example, in one study consuming two glasses of milk per day was associated with a 50% greater risk. Is the calcium in milk solely responsible for the rise in risk? A recent study looked at rates of calcium intake from 500 (about one and one half glasses of milk per day) to 2000 milligrams in men sixty-eight years of age or younger. For men who ingested the highest amounts of calcium, the risk of developing metastatic prostate cancer was threefold that of those who ingested the lower amounts. For men over the age of sixty-eight, the higher rate of calcium intake resulted in a sevenfold increase in risk. How could calcium raise the probability of developing prostate cancer? It is possible that it acts by depressing circulating levels of vitamin D which has cancer inhibiting properties. ...
Posted by tealady on November 4, 2003, at 13:34:21
In reply to Re: Calcium:Magnesium ratio,,,sb417 » tealady, posted by JLx on November 4, 2003, at 9:50:32
Posted by Nickm on November 4, 2003, at 20:27:08
In reply to Re: Calcium:Magnesium ratio » JLx, posted by sb417 on November 3, 2003, at 0:12:34
Posted by JLx on November 5, 2003, at 12:15:56
In reply to Re: Calcium:Magnesium ratio - osteoporosis (nm), posted by Nickm on November 4, 2003, at 20:27:08
"Osteoporosis" is your comment, or did you check the "no message" box by mistake?
Posted by Nickm on November 5, 2003, at 15:34:58
In reply to Re: Calcium:Magnesium ratio - osteoporosis (nm), posted by Nickm on November 4, 2003, at 20:27:08
Hi, I guess I punched the no message button, and nothing posted.
My wife has osteoporosis, and major depression. I'm trying to get her to take magnesium, and perhaps Sam-E, and fish-oil. She takes Oscal daily, 500 mg of calcium. The magnesium tablets I bought are for 200 mg or magnesium carbonate and magnesium oxide. She already takes 100 mg daily from a multivitamin tablet.
Is she taking enough magnesium to affect depression, or does she need to take more. I've read calcium reductions maybe necessary, but...with osteoporosis, can she really reduce calcium?
Anybody know about Sam-E. My wife takes Effexor, and she's still on 75 mg a day. Does Sam-e, or magnesium, fish oil, etc., interfere with Effexor or cause side effects in combination with it?
Many thanks,
Nickm
Posted by JLx on November 6, 2003, at 9:23:01
In reply to Re: Calcium:Magnesium ratio - osteoporosis JLx, posted by Nickm on November 5, 2003, at 15:34:58
> My wife has osteoporosis, and major depression. I'm trying to get her to take magnesium, and perhaps Sam-E, and fish-oil. She takes Oscal daily, 500 mg of calcium. The magnesium tablets I bought are for 200 mg or magnesium carbonate and magnesium oxide. She already takes 100 mg daily from a multivitamin tablet. Is she taking enough magnesium to affect depression, or does she need to take more. I've read calcium reductions maybe necessary, but...with osteoporosis, can she really reduce calcium?
If she already has osteoporosis -- a serious condition -- then it sounds like her situation might be best advised by a physician. Maybe a naturopath as well as a traditional doctor will give you a more complete picture as to which supplements might help both her osteoporosis and depression without one remedy being to the detriment of the other.
With that caveat, 500 mg of calicum sounds low to me. And she's probably not actually getting much magnesium from that combo that includes magnesium oxide. That is a cheap form for the manufacturer to put into a tablet, so when it says "and magnesium oxide", I'm suspicious that it's actually MOSTLY magnesium oxide, which is not very absorbable. To be in the safer side, I would go with a more abosorbable form of magnesium such as magnesium glycinate. (I recommend Carlson's brand.)
One book worth reading on magnesium -- and it's a quick read -- is "The Miracle of Magnesium" by Carolyn Dean, who is an M.D. AND a naturopath. From this review: http://www.naturopathyonline.com/newsletter/newsletter03_04.htm
"Dean points out that a influx of calcium without a balance of magnesium will lead to a new host of problems....She therefore recommends 800mg of calcium and 600 mg of magnesium daily to treat or prevent osteoporosis - as well as a diet rich in vegetables, beans, grains, nuts and seeds."
Here is an excerpt from the book with some good info:
http://www.randomhouse.ca/catalog/display.pperl?isbn=0345445880&view=excerpt
"While women and men seem equally susceptible to magnesium deficiency, women may become deficient faster than men ... Osteoporosis, which affects more women than men, is evidence of a deficiency of both calcium and magnesium. ... More recent research indicates that calcium enters the cells by way of calcium channels that are jealously guarded by magnesium. Magnesium allows a certain amount of calcium to enter a cell to create the necessary electrical transmission, and then immediately ejects the calcium once the work is done. Why? If calcium accumulates in the cell, it causes toxicity and disrupts cell function. Too much calcium entering cells can cause symptoms of heart disease (such as angina, high blood pressure, and arrhythmia), asthma, or headaches. Magnesium is nature's calcium channel blocker.12,13,14
About 60-65 percent of all our magnesium is housed in our bones and teeth. The remaining 35-40 percent is found in the rest of the body, including muscle and tissue cells and body fluids. The highest concentrations are in the heart and brain cells, so it is no wonder that the major symptoms of magnesium deficiency affect the heart and brain."
The RDA in the U.S. is usually just listed as 350-400 for "an adult". The comparable recommendation in Canada is 600 mg. Since RDAs are notoriously low compared to what many people feel that actually need, it sounds like your wife could at least be taking as much magnesium as she is calcium, 500 mg, in a good, absorbable form which may help both her depression and her osteoporosis.
> Anybody know about Sam-E. My wife takes Effexor, and she's still on 75 mg a day. Does Sam-e, or magnesium, fish oil, etc., interfere with Effexor or cause side effects in combination with it?If you don't get a response on this, you might also check the archives. There's been lots of discussion on the other medication board, I'm sure, about possible interactions of any number of things with certain meds.
Off hand, I would say that fish oil and magnesium would do no harm (and might help) as they are both things that a person might ordinarily have more or less of due to dietary choices, but SAMe is a different story being as it is a somewhat manipulated substance.
This is the end of the thread.
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