![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 40 to 64 of 67. Go back in thread:
Posted by Larry Hoover on October 4, 2003, at 9:36:14
In reply to Re: stuff, and testosterone » Larry Hoover, posted by tealady on September 30, 2003, at 22:43:49
> >This is one of the issues that is so hard to overcome when dealing with "standard medical practise". Few doctors will treat from symptoms alone. They do a blood test, tell you it's normal (when there is way to much variability in the normal range, in any case), and shrug it off.
>
> If you say my post in admin, the docs who have treated some of their patients in this way..and the patients find out by word of mouth and come from far and wide.. are possibly being persued by medical boardsetc..a lesson to other docs
> http://forums.about.com/ab-thyroid/messages?msg=40274.1
>
> >I think I need testosterone supps, but I'm going to have a tough time getting it
>
> Lar, I really think you have to have blood tests for this stuff as it can be pretty potent, get copies, photocopies etc of test results.
> RE: blood test results..IMHO anywhere in the lower half normal with symptoms can be suss..but if you're up there in the top 1/3 or over..it's probably not your problem. (unless the test results have been put out of whack by DHEA or other supplementation?) Best to ask other guys who've had similar tests/symptoms ..or really good docs..what they think
> Have a look at this post for an idea
> http://forums.about.com/ab-thyroid/messages?msg=46380.1Thanks. Good read. I'm too early in the investigative process to decide anything. Haven't even ruled out cancer, yet. (the nasties get the first focus, of course, just in case)
> Other suggestions(though I've no personal experience with this)
> ..if your levels are testing out fine..and ya know.."NORMAL" is not good enough
> Try limiting those testosterone depleting foods for 3 days or so
> http://www.gladiatordiet.com/ims.htmThanks.
> avoid flax seed too probably for a few days
> http://www.gladiatordiet.com/nutrition.htmI don't use flax....hard on the prostate, fer sure.
> and possibly try some l-arginine (avoiding nitrates when trying <g>).. and no, I have never tried l-arginine or viagra either<g>I know about arginine.....gonna get some.
http://www.smartbodyz.com/ArginineText.htm..larrian mention arginine tooAgain, thanks for the support.
> >>> Some folks with this may respond to fish oil??
> >>> Clear the receptors?
>
> >Fish oil increases receptor sensitivity. >Possibly also upregulates receptor synthesis.
>
> I did wonder before if this may possibly be why you had such a good response to fish oil
>
> JanI don't need to know why. I just need to know whether (it works or not).
Hugs,
Lar
Posted by tealady on October 4, 2003, at 12:32:05
In reply to Re: T3-acetylcholinerase, testosterone » tealady, posted by Larry Hoover on October 4, 2003, at 9:22:19
> Hi Jan. Been a rough week. I'll pick these threads back up.
> > > The reason fluoride is toxic to thyroid appears to centre around its effects on acetylcholinesterase. The impact is mediated by a host of cofactors, however, but fluorine induces functional zinc deficiency, especially if calcium homestasis is poor, or if iodine deficiency exists. So, given the link of soy and iodine (via genistein), fluorine and soy combined are a thyroid knock-out punch, methinks.
Hi Lar,
Ya, it's fondly known as fluorosoy on the thyroid forum..I'm in a stupid mood tonight
http://forums.about.com/ab-thyroid/messages?msg=27462.6
http://forums.about.com/ab-thyroid/messages?msg=36280.1 jokes!
> > >
> >
> > In that stuff, sometime have a look at the cortisol article.
> > I can't figure it out completely, and I know cortisol lowers T3 (also you commented on this), but it's different than just taking less T3..it seems to perhaps lower the T3 by utilizing it? That's how it feels anyway. I was wondering what the article was saying exactly.
>
> Can you repost the specific article again?
This is only the abstract? Is that OK? I can probably get the article.Ved HS, et al.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=PubMed&cmd=Retrieve&list_uids=2473427&dopt=Abstract
Effect of hydrocortisone on myelin basic protein in developing primary brain cultures.
Neurosci Lett. 1989 Apr 24;99(1-2):203-7.
[PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
PMID: 2473427; UI: 89314566.
Effect of hydrocortisone on myelin basic protein in developing primary brain cultures.
Ved HS, Gustow E, Pieringer RA
Department of Biochemistry, Temple University School of Medicine, Philadelphia, PA 19140.
The hormones hydrocortisone (HC) and triiodothyronine (T3) are known to regulate myelinogenic parameters in cultures of brain cells. However, the effect of glucocorticoids on the myelin-specific metabolite, myelin basic protein, has not been previously studied. In the present studies we show that the concentrations of myelin basic protein (MBP) in developing primary cultures from mouse cerebra are significantly higher in HC (0.3 microM)-treated as compared to untreated cultures after 15 days in vitro. Further, this effect of HC on MBP appears to be T3-dependent. Since HC stimulates oligodendroglia to produce MBP, the effect of HC on the activities of the enzymes, glutamine synthetase which is primarily associated with astrocytes, and acetylcholinesterase, which is primarily associated with neurons was was determined. HC stimulated both enzymes, suggesting that all 3 cell types may be regulated by HC.
PMID: 2473427, UI: 89314566 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/htbin-post/Entrez/query_old?uid=1699168&form=6&db=m&Dopt=b> > >
> > > You have narcolepsy?
> >
> > No idea, never got anyone to look at me before.
> > Just sleeping most of the time..even when pinching myself too say awake. The thyroid meds have helped.
>
> Two concepts jump out. If narcolepsy, you fall asleep in inappropriate situations....not being tired really, just falling asleep almost at random.hmm. Well I guess if I'm walking or something I don't do that, but I do blank out for a few seconds..like drop a bottle in a supermarket..and only see it when I hear it hit the floor etc. Also I've figured I do this when stressed out a bit and pushing myself(doesn't take much).
The other is poor sleep architecture, awakening without feeling restored, despite adequate "clock time" sleeping. The latter is often helped by meds.....my own turnaround really began when I finally got properly medicated so as to promote restorative sleep. When I don't get that sort of restive sleep, I am very vulnerable to crashing (like I've been struggling with this week).
Me too. Actually I tried going back on Temazepam this week and ended up sleeping say 6 hrs at night,(I'd written on the pack 4.5 hrs..so looks like I'm sleeping longer in one go <g>) then awake 2 hrs..then fighting sleep..give up sleepep another 6 hrs..wake another he..sleep another 4 hrs...
Now tonight..it's 3AM ..I took one (10mg) Temazepam at 8.30Pm..and I'm still wide awake..there was a noisy party acros the road though. I'd never been able to saty awake this late in my life.
I guess if you sleep for 5 days , you need to wake up sometime.
feeling good today..even went for a walk. Beginning to exercise again...just still got the toothache.
>
> > Re testosterone:
>
> > note- Assumes you've read her diet book.>The book is "The Gladiator Diet" she writes for a more general audience ..I'd prefer more detail. I think she mentions the blood tests in there, otherwise you can pick up ideas from a few threads on how to interpret them..or even ask her...everyone does.
Most docs aren't really good at interpreting blood tests..unless it's their field..and they're good in their field.> Besides, I honour the female attributes within me. (Maybe that's what you sensed about me?)
hmmmm well actually It's a dead giveaway that you're male..you'd never get away with posing as a female poster <g>..there's a difference in communication styles, lol.....but if you like
> http://forums.delphiforums.com/GladiatorDiet/messages/?msg=20.1
> > I think most of guys use androgel for testosterone replacement.
>
> My doctor shot that idea down, almost without discussion. If I want the bloodwork, I have to pay out-of-pocket, and if and only if I'm totally out of range will he consider supplementing me.Well you could do what I do..try a different doc??
I've got about 4..and rotate blood tests <g>...I still haven't got the harder to get ones..but hey, even I can get testosterone. But you need a panel.
Re he blood tests...I'm getting to learn what different levels feel like symptomwise, so should be able to taper off soon...it takes a while to learn..for me anyway, with the thyroid levelsOr ask for a referral to a specialist?
If not, one of those guys on that forum is from Canada..he might have some ideas..BTW The reason they use androgel , is that it is easy to titrate, bypasses the liver, and if spread very thinly less conversion to oestradiol.
That's about the limit of my knowledge>
> I know I'm messed up.....it's trying to figger out just where to put my finger on the scales.Lar, when you mentioned testosterone, I wasn't sure if you wanted feed back or not...thought I might have goofed up.
Anyway, IMO I think there's a fair bet from your comments that you are lowish too..and if so that would overwork your adrenals a tad..so they come out a bit stressed out. Once you do get on the testosterone, your adrenals then kinda correct..pretty fast I found with estrogen..caus they don't have to work so hard.
It's just difficult getting it right, but then I think that's caus of this other problem as most, out of hundreds has "got it right" in the end..reckon well over 90%.The comment about the fish oil...I came across what Larrian had told someone about adrenals in someone with pretty good looking blood levels but was feeling their adrenals were stressed out
".....the only other way to deal with your adrenals is to eat a lot of omega fatty acid fish...say 1/2 pounds of salmon twice a week.....tuna....9 hours of sleep....deep breathing techniques...."Interesting , no?
>I'm too early in the investigative process to decide anything. Haven't even ruled out cancer, yet. (the nasties get the first focus, of course, just in case)
Of course, huh?? Hugs, Lar
Fingers crossed, Jan
Posted by tealady on October 5, 2003, at 12:51:56
In reply to Re: Pain Cox2 inhibitor, posted by Larry Hoover on October 4, 2003, at 9:29:27
> I don't know what the political climate is like, in Oz, with respect to pain treatment. Up here, there are two camps.....one, the most common, where they pat you on the head, and teach you how to tune out the pain (as if), or the other, where doctors actually treat you with adequate analgesia, and put their licenses and livelihood on the line.....
>This pain clinic does both I gather as I phoned them and had a chat...they treat with homeopathic too..not that I think that will work..and morphine..but I don't want to go that way. I just want it fixed!..and that was a question too..I think it went /do you consider that you just haven't got the appropriate medical treatment and yoy'll be fixed 100% when you do...I mean hello, YES..but then that is open to misinterpretation...and I always hate how those questionnaires ask you everything 3 times over in a slightly reworded way, sigh.
> > > > has to do with
> > > > I tried nurofen(ibuprofen) once in the past 3 months or so with this pain which I thought was either sinus or migraine(mildish no vomiting etc) as the dentist said it wasn't dental..and it cleared up for a while
> > >
> > > So, why did you stop taking it?
> >
> > First time worked well, other times only took edge of pain..and it's a NSAID.. So I thought not good long term due to stomach lining problems?.leaky gut syndrome? Or is iboprofen one of the newer ones that are milder?
>
> Everybody is different, with respect to what works, and whether there's a gut problem. The newer meds, supposedly stomach friendly, have proven to not be. More wishful thinking/propaganda from the drug companies, methinks.>
> Most people do not have gut problems from NSAIDS. If you do, you stop taking them, but I wouldn't exclude them based on that risk alone.
>
> > >
> > > > So I thought I'd finally got onto something!
> > >
> > > You did, actually. But the effect is transient. There's nothing wrong with taking it every day. But, if you don't want to do that, read the first article above, for alternatives.
> >
> > Thanks
> > >
> > > > Also today I thought I'd retry the nitrates..as I had some corn beef left in freezer and I wanted to see if I could get more tingling.
> > >
> > > Why?
> > >
> > > > I did..I also got the tooth ache much worse...pain faded again after a couple of hours.
> > >
> > > Why use an irritant?
> > >
> > > > Had another helping for dinner..pain flared again.
> > >
> > > You just experimenting, or are you a closet masochist?
> >
> > hehehe gratification thru provoking a few hours of screamingly intense toothache/jaw pain...no, I must have been identifying with a lab rat again
>
> I think I'd be avoiding nitrates, myself.
Me too, lol. Do you have any ideas on why NITRATES could induce the pain?(reproducibly)..especially if it is an infection of some kind?
>
> > >
> > > > so its kinda all linked in here Lar.
> > >
> > > I'm seeing that.
> > >
> > > > >Or, you could just use turmeric. It has a potent COX inhibitor in it.
I've tried a couple of times. The first time I thougt I felt an improvement..the next time nothing.
Again in the past week, I tried once at noon but didn't work
3Pm ended up painting teeeth with clove oil again..only dulled pain, couldn't concentrate even on reading forums
7PM.. tried panadol
8.30PM Pain gone ...wierd..as that never used to work on migraines etc.
I'm really confused about this Prostaglandin, COX, NOX stuff. Did a heap of reading but I can't interpret it.
I have a heap of links and it was raised by someone of a thyroid forum too...if you're interested I'll post it up?..and they also appear to be using and perhaps linking niacinamide, or preferably NADH, fish oil, Nox, and cox inhibitors, PG's?(I think).Is tea a cox inhibitor?or only green tea?..and I've been drinking both lately, so perhaps that is why tumeric does make a diff sometimes and not at other times..depends on if I'm already getting whatever in my diet at that time?
> > > > Oh , the other time this pain really completely lifted like magic was back in January, I had a double course of penicillin..as had sinus and moved to throat and playing up with thyroiditis ..the tooth pain stopped with the sinus pain with the antibiotic..and my thyroid problems lifted too (well still took meds, but I felt terrific)
> > >
> > > Nerves are well known for a phenomenon known as referral. Pain sensations are felt in regions that are not producing the pain. The pain you thought to be from your tooth could have been entirely caused by sinus pressure, or it may have been due to an infected tooth root. I'll see if I can figure out why you may have felt better after penicillin. You are intriguing, ya know?
> >
> > <grin>
> > Looked back at notes, it was actually about 15 days of Augmentin(Amoxicillin and Clavulanate Potassium)..as it had moved to my chest..but 'm pretty sure it's the penicillin in it. I usually just have penicillin antibiotics..just not for that long. I suspected perhaps long term antibiotic therapy may help with the hashi stuff...but it surprised me that the tooth/jaw pain completely disappeared too for a while.
>
> The clavanulate blocks a known mechanism of resistance to penicillin, substantially enhancing the effectiveness in certain infective species. Because this worked for your pain, it's pretty suggestive that you had an unidentified infection somewhere in your mouth.
>
> > > > Lar, thanks if you even get thru reading this!
> > >
> > > Ya, I got this far.
> > >
> > > > and my tooth is killing me <grin>..and I don't won't to take anything in case I muck up the EEG.
> > > > Going to apply some clove oil. now
> > >
> > > Clove oil contains one of the most potent COX inhibitors known to man (eugenol). That's why it works for tooth pain. Be careful with it. It is so potent that it can cause necrosis (tissue death).
> >
> > Thanks Lar, I didn't know any of that
> > Just went "normal" to the EEG..wonderful to have your reply
> >
> > hugs, Jan
>
> So, where ya been? Waiting for me? <g>
<g>
> Besides, I honour the female attributes within me. (Maybe that's what you sensed about me?)lesson learned..don't reply at 3AM with no sleep on forums one can't edit later..except I keep forgetting.
OK, will try to answer better. I think I sensed someone who seemed caring and supportive but also who seemed to be searching for an answer/support themselves as well?..and perhaps someone who may possibly identify with similar symptoms/reactions in some cases.
Anyone can email me via that thyroid forum..just click on my name?Hugs, Jan
Posted by Larry Hoover on October 8, 2003, at 7:49:47
In reply to Re: T3-acetylcholinerase, testosterone » Larry Hoover, posted by tealady on October 4, 2003, at 12:32:05
> > > I can't figure it out completely, and I know cortisol lowers T3 (also you commented on this), but it's different than just taking less T3..it seems to perhaps lower the T3 by utilizing it? That's how it feels anyway. I was wondering what the article was saying exactly.
> >
> > Can you repost the specific article again?
> This is only the abstract? Is that OK? I can probably get the article.
>
> Ved HS, et al.
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=PubMed&cmd=Retrieve&list_uids=2473427&dopt=Abstract
> Effect of hydrocortisone on myelin basic protein in developing primary brain cultures.
> Neurosci Lett. 1989 Apr 24;99(1-2):203-7.
> [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
> PMID: 2473427; UI: 89314566.
> Effect of hydrocortisone on myelin basic protein in developing primary brain cultures.
> Ved HS, Gustow E, Pieringer RA
> Department of Biochemistry, Temple University School of Medicine, Philadelphia, PA 19140.
> The hormones hydrocortisone (HC) and triiodothyronine (T3) are known to regulate myelinogenic parameters in cultures of brain cells. However, the effect of glucocorticoids on the myelin-specific metabolite, myelin basic protein, has not been previously studied. In the present studies we show that the concentrations of myelin basic protein (MBP) in developing primary cultures from mouse cerebra are significantly higher in HC (0.3 microM)-treated as compared to untreated cultures after 15 days in vitro. Further, this effect of HC on MBP appears to be T3-dependent. Since HC stimulates oligodendroglia to produce MBP, the effect of HC on the activities of the enzymes, glutamine synthetase which is primarily associated with astrocytes, and acetylcholinesterase, which is primarily associated with neurons was was determined. HC stimulated both enzymes, suggesting that all 3 cell types may be regulated by HC.
> PMID: 2473427, UI: 89314566 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/htbin-post/Entrez/query_old?uid=1699168&form=6&db=m&Dopt=bSimply put, deficiencies in either hydrocortisone or T3 will block proper development of neurons (particularly their ability to fire appropriately). Given that we now know that the adult brain can still generate new neurons, and new connections between them, cognitive defects will be likely if adrenal function (source of HC), thyroid hormone synthesis (T4), or thyroid hormone deiodination (to make T3) is/are messed up.
> > Two concepts jump out. If narcolepsy, you fall asleep in inappropriate situations....not being tired really, just falling asleep almost at random.
>
> hmm. Well I guess if I'm walking or something I don't do that, but I do blank out for a few seconds..like drop a bottle in a supermarket..and only see it when I hear it hit the floor etc. Also I've figured I do this when stressed out a bit and pushing myself(doesn't take much).That sounds more like epilepsy.
> > The other is poor sleep architecture, awakening without feeling restored, despite adequate "clock time" sleeping. The latter is often helped by meds.....my own turnaround really began when I finally got properly medicated so as to promote restorative sleep. When I don't get that sort of restive sleep, I am very vulnerable to crashing (like I've been struggling with this week).
>
> Me too. Actually I tried going back on Temazepam this week and ended up sleeping say 6 hrs at night,(I'd written on the pack 4.5 hrs..so looks like I'm sleeping longer in one go <g>) then awake 2 hrs..then fighting sleep..give up sleepep another 6 hrs..wake another he..sleep another 4 hrs...
> Now tonight..it's 3AM ..I took one (10mg) Temazepam at 8.30Pm..and I'm still wide awake..there was a noisy party acros the road though. I'd never been able to saty awake this late in my life.
> I guess if you sleep for 5 days , you need to wake up sometime.Still, the key concept is restorative, rather than duration. If you feel better after using the temazepam, you may find a cumulative benefit if you use it for a period of time. I certainly did.
> feeling good today..even went for a walk. Beginning to exercise again...just still got the toothache.
Take an analgesic, eh?
> > > I think most of guys use androgel for testosterone replacement.
> >
> > My doctor shot that idea down, almost without discussion. If I want the bloodwork, I have to pay out-of-pocket, and if and only if I'm totally out of range will he consider supplementing me.
>
> Well you could do what I do..try a different doc??That's just not possible. There's a doctor shortage, such that 20% of people do not even have a regular doctor. You can't switch. Referrals to specialists must be generated by your regular doctor, so I either get help or I don't.
> I've got about 4..and rotate blood tests <g>...I still haven't got the harder to get ones..but hey, even I can get testosterone. But you need a panel.
I gonna pay for the blood work. I want information.
> Re he blood tests...I'm getting to learn what different levels feel like symptomwise, so should be able to taper off soon...it takes a while to learn..for me anyway, with the thyroid levels
>
> Or ask for a referral to a specialist?If and only if one of my hormones is out of range, and given the order of magnitude (or larger) reference range for many hormones, I doubt I'll get the evidence I need.
> If not, one of those guys on that forum is from Canada..he might have some ideas..
Thanks for the link.
> BTW The reason they use androgel , is that it is easy to titrate, bypasses the liver, and if spread very thinly less conversion to oestradiol.
> That's about the limit of my knowledgeThe gel is definitely the way to go.
> >
> > I know I'm messed up.....it's trying to figger out just where to put my finger on the scales.
>
> Lar, when you mentioned testosterone, I wasn't sure if you wanted feed back or not...thought I might have goofed up.I wouldn't have mentioned it if I was concerned about other people's ideas, or my own privacy.
> Anyway, IMO I think there's a fair bet from your comments that you are lowish too..and if so that would overwork your adrenals a tad..so they come out a bit stressed out.I've believed I have adrenal fatigue for years now. Couldn't get help with that, either.
> Once you do get on the testosterone, your adrenals then kinda correct..pretty fast I found with estrogen..caus they don't have to work so hard.
Maybe if I win the lottery, I can go to the States and buy the care I want. :-/
> It's just difficult getting it right, but then I think that's caus of this other problem as most, out of hundreds has "got it right" in the end..reckon well over 90%.
If only androgel was OTC.
> The comment about the fish oil...I came across what Larrian had told someone about adrenals in someone with pretty good looking blood levels but was feeling their adrenals were stressed out
> ".....the only other way to deal with your adrenals is to eat a lot of omega fatty acid fish...say 1/2 pounds of salmon twice a week.....tuna....9 hours of sleep....deep breathing techniques...."
>
> Interesting , no?Fits with my understanding.
> >I'm too early in the investigative process to decide anything. Haven't even ruled out cancer, yet. (the nasties get the first focus, of course, just in case)
>
> Of course, huh?? Hugs, Lar
>
> Fingers crossed, JanFirst tests today.
Thanks for the support.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on October 8, 2003, at 8:34:54
In reply to Re: Pain Cox2 inhibitor » Larry Hoover, posted by tealady on October 5, 2003, at 12:51:56
> > I don't know what the political climate is like, in Oz, with respect to pain treatment. Up here, there are two camps.....one, the most common, where they pat you on the head, and teach you how to tune out the pain (as if), or the other, where doctors actually treat you with adequate analgesia, and put their licenses and livelihood on the line.....
> >
>
> This pain clinic does both I gather as I phoned them and had a chat...they treat with homeopathic too..not that I think that will work..and morphine..but I don't want to go that way. I just want it fixed!..and that was a question too..I think it went /do you consider that you just haven't got the appropriate medical treatment and yoy'll be fixed 100% when you do...I mean hello, YES..but then that is open to misinterpretation...That question contains two completely distinct and independent considerations. If it was posed to you in the way you describe, then it is meaningless (as an assessment), and potentially disastrous (if they interpret your reply as belief in "magical treatment/response"). I studied psychometrics (I have a degree in psychology), and that's a bad question.
> and I always hate how those questionnaires ask you everything 3 times over in a slightly reworded way, sigh.
That's to tease out nuances in your thinking, and also measures your tendency to be deceptive or attempts to project a particular, but inaccurate, measure of your distress (like drug-seeking).
> > I think I'd be avoiding nitrates, myself.
>
>
> Me too, lol. Do you have any ideas on why NITRATES could induce the pain?(reproducibly)..especially if it is an infection of some kind?If I recall correctly, they're irritants. The infection (if that's what it is) leads to inflammation and changes in the sensitivity of the nerve to noxious stimuli, like putting the nerve on a hair-trigger. Add a little nitrate, and you're over the sensitivity threshold.
>
> >
> > > >
> > > > > so its kinda all linked in here Lar.
> > > >
> > > > I'm seeing that.
> > > >
> > > > > >Or, you could just use turmeric. It has a potent COX inhibitor in it.
> I've tried a couple of times. The first time I thougt I felt an improvement..the next time nothing.
> Again in the past week, I tried once at noon but didn't workEverybody's different.
> 3Pm ended up painting teeeth with clove oil again..only dulled pain, couldn't concentrate even on reading forums
> 7PM.. tried panadol
> 8.30PM Pain gone ...wierd..as that never used to work on migraines etc.
Acetominophen/paracetamol can be used daily.> I'm really confused about this Prostaglandin, COX, NOX stuff. Did a heap of reading but I can't interpret it.
I'll see if I can't cut through the mystery.
Polyunsaturated fatty acids (PUFAs) serve two purposes, physiologically. The first is structural; they keep membranes more fluid, and enhance receptor function on a purely mechanical level. The second is chemical; they're the raw materials for a host of signalling chemicals.
Some of those signalling chemicals are: leukotrienes, prostaglandins, eicosanoids, anandamide, interleukins....
The PUFAs in question, all have unsaturated (double-bonded) carbons at every third position. A double-bond is reactive, and if you react two such bonds that are three carbons apart, you can form a six-carbon ring. Now that's something that carbon likes to do, as it accomodates the bonding characteristics of carbon quite nicely.
One of the ways that these rings can form is via enzymatic reactions mediated by COX enzymes. COX stands for cyclo-oxygenase (cyclo describes the ring structure that is formed, oxygenase means the reaction proceeds via oxidation). In case there wasn't enough terminolgy floating around, COX has another name, prostaglandin endoperoxide synthase.
We have not figured out exactly why these ring structures formed from PUFAs have the signalling capacity that they do, but depending on whether the raw material (the PUFA) was an omega-3 or an omega-6, or was a twenty carbon chain, or a twenty-two, and so on, the bits that dangle away from the ring determine the physiological signal that the prostaglandin/eicosanoid/leukotriene, etc. actually carries. We can make some generalizations, like the omega-6 20-carbon PUFA arichidonic acid forms inflammatory prostaglandins, whereas the omega-3 22-carbon PUFA docosahexaenoic acid forms anti-inflammatory prostaglandins, but much of the "meaning" of these ring structures has yet to be determined.
The reason dietary manipulation of omega-6/omega-3 ratios can have a profound effect on inflammation flows from the mechanism of the synthesis of prostaglandins. When the PUFAs are part of a membrane (the physical/structural role I mentioned earlier), they are bound to a phosphate group, forming a phospholipid. In the presence of an activating signal, an enzyme (phospholipase) cleaves off one of the PUFAs, which immediately reacts with COX to form a prostaglandin, which then transmits the signal to other cells. If the PUFA that cleaves away from the phospholipid is arichidonic acid (omega-6), the signal is inflammatory. If it cleaves docosahexaenoic acid (omega-3), the signal is anti-inflammatory. Whichever "flavour" of signal dominates the local biochemistry will determine the ultimate physiological response to the initial trigger. The likelihood that the prostaglandins which are formed are "good" or "bad" is purely statistical. If your diet is high in omega-3s relative to omega-6s, the signal will tend to be good.
The term NOX, I'm not sure how it applies here. Usually written NOx, it represents the various oxides of nitrogen (where x is an integer, but there is also N2O5 to consider). NO (nitric oxide) is a potent oxidizer, and has powerful signalling capacity as well. If you're under oxidative stress (more oxidizers than antioxidants), NO can react with hydrogen peroxide to form peroxynitrite, which is hugely damaging. For more on peroxynitrite, you might want to read:
http://molecular.biosciences.wsu.edu/Faculty/pall/pall_cfs.htm
http://molecular.biosciences.wsu.edu/Faculty/pall/pall_fibro.htm> I have a heap of links and it was raised by someone of a thyroid forum too...if you're interested I'll post it up?..and they also appear to be using and perhaps linking niacinamide, or preferably NADH, fish oil, Nox, and cox inhibitors, PG's?(I think).
It's all linked, absolutely. The connection is oxidative stress.
> Is tea a cox inhibitor?or only green tea?..and I've been drinking both lately, so perhaps that is why tumeric does make a diff sometimes and not at other times..depends on if I'm already getting whatever in my diet at that time?
I can't tell you why turmeric would work sometimes and not others, unless it's a dose issue. Perhaps turmeric and e.g. paracetamol might be a useful combination?
> > Besides, I honour the female attributes within me. (Maybe that's what you sensed about me?)
>
> lesson learned..don't reply at 3AM with no sleep on forums one can't edit later..except I keep forgetting.
>
> OK, will try to answer better. I think I sensed someone who seemed caring and supportive but also who seemed to be searching for an answer/support themselves as well?..and perhaps someone who may possibly identify with similar symptoms/reactions in some cases.You left out intuitive, but yes.... :-)
> Anyone can email me via that thyroid forum..just click on my name?
>
> Hugs, JanI haven't spent much time there yet. Don't be surprised if you get email from me, eh?
Lar
Posted by tealady on October 11, 2003, at 2:33:23
In reply to Re: T3-acetylcholinerase, testosterone » tealady, posted by Larry Hoover on October 8, 2003, at 7:49:47
> > > > I can't figure it out completely, and I know cortisol lowers T3 (also you commented on this), but it's different than just taking less T3..it seems to perhaps lower the T3 by utilizing it? That's how it feels anyway. I was wondering what the article was saying exactly.
> > >
> > > Can you repost the specific article again?
> > This is only the abstract? Is that OK? I can probably get the article.
> >
> > Ved HS, et al.
> > http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=PubMed&cmd=Retrieve&list_uids=2473427&dopt=Abstract
> > Effect of hydrocortisone on myelin basic protein in developing primary brain cultures.
> > Neurosci Lett. 1989 Apr 24;99(1-2):203-7.
> > [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
> > PMID: 2473427; UI: 89314566.
> > Effect of hydrocortisone on myelin basic protein in developing primary brain cultures.
> > Ved HS, Gustow E, Pieringer RA
> > Department of Biochemistry, Temple University School of Medicine, Philadelphia, PA 19140.
> > The hormones hydrocortisone (HC) and triiodothyronine (T3) are known to regulate myelinogenic parameters in cultures of brain cells. However, the effect of glucocorticoids on the myelin-specific metabolite, myelin basic protein, has not been previously studied. In the present studies we show that the concentrations of myelin basic protein (MBP) in developing primary cultures from mouse cerebra are significantly higher in HC (0.3 microM)-treated as compared to untreated cultures after 15 days in vitro. Further, this effect of HC on MBP appears to be T3-dependent. Since HC stimulates oligodendroglia to produce MBP, the effect of HC on the activities of the enzymes, glutamine synthetase which is primarily associated with astrocytes, and acetylcholinesterase, which is primarily associated with neurons was was determined. HC stimulated both enzymes, suggesting that all 3 cell types may be regulated by HC.
> > PMID: 2473427, UI: 89314566 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/htbin-post/Entrez/query_old?uid=1699168&form=6&db=m&Dopt=b
>
> Simply put, deficiencies in either hydrocortisone or T3 will block proper development of neurons (particularly their ability to fire appropriately). Given that we now know that the adult brain can still generate new neurons, and new connections between them, cognitive defects will be likely if adrenal function (source of HC), thyroid hormone synthesis (T4), or thyroid hormone deiodination (to make T3) is/are messed up.Thanks heaps Lar. That means hydrocortisone does actually do sometihing other than merely reduce the T3 level.
>
> > Anyway, IMO I think there's a fair bet from your comments that you are lowish too..and if so that would overwork your adrenals a tad..so they come out a bit stressed out.
>
> I've believed I have adrenal fatigue for years now. Couldn't get help with that, either.
>
See if you can get the following tests from your doc.
blood tests
8Am and 4Pm cortisol (note 8Am must be taken fasting and preferably between say 7.30Am and 8.30AM..preferably after just rising out of bed, without drinking, eating , brushing teeth, no activtity as much as possible..just roll up to blood testing site..if you have them over there4Pm..taken after normal daily activity
Also a saliva test..over here if I get a doc to prescribe them I get a rebate of a fair bit of it on Medicare. Saliva test should be a 4 times a day test..you can ask for it even if not usually done at lab (I did)..saliva tests you do at home..we have a courier pick up the samples and air freight to lab at no extra cost.
Saliva tests should be done 8am fasting (as above with blood test)..no activity /drink (even water) beforehand..they should tell you this. Also
Noon, 4Pm and midnight..I could never last this long but made about 11.15pm or so..by then I was so low it was not measurable on test.
>
> Maybe if I win the lottery, I can go to the States and buy the care I want. :-/ya, my dream too..reckon winning lotto is the top antiD.
If you want accurate cortisol tests..no DHEA probably a month before or even 2 months , no VitC,B5 , multi B , licorice, ginseng etc etc for a period beforehand..probably only a few days..perhaps a week for the water soluble vits perhaps 2 weeks for the rest? I'm sure you can work it out <g>
Also a good test for you would be 21 hydroxylase antibodies..but that is harder to get, not run by many labs and exxy (Larrian likes this one) I've got references you can show your doc if interested, ..mine aren't <g> I can't even find a lab in Oz that can run them. If you have these antibodies it can prove an adrenal problem..I guess you need a good specialist for this kinda stuff
I think you should do the tests, and I was thinking what you were descibing as fried brain sounded a tad like an adrenal crash usually brought on by pushing oneself and using all reserve up...
Re doc situation..there's a shortage over here too. If you don't already have a doc,,they don't accept new patients around my way...but I was going to 2 different surgeries before they clamped down..It's the surgeries decision themselves , not govt. regulated.
They PREFER you to only have the one regular GP..but I've found different GP's have their own specialties..like one was trained in paedeatrics and another would set bones to save you going to hospital. I've another in BN that does free accupunture (chinese).
What I've found with the hormone stuff..none of the GP's in my area will touch it..but if I travel to the rich suburbs ..ya know where the right wing politicians and CEO's etc live..they have an oversupply of docs..a lot of docs into antiaging etc..and while they do charge more, I can get tests run thru them for free...so it works out a lot cheaper overall.
If you check first some give discounts to health care card holders..some treat free..and some charge full price. Some ran labs free..some charge as they have already exceeded their govt limit..the newer ones still haven't usually <g>.
It's just working around the system.
Problem is you have to find out all the backgound on the tests yourself that you need and know what to suggest and what labs they will use..as there are good and bad labs too.
I was lucky as I explained I couldn't afford to see one regularly and she treated me for free for a while...I was told I looked so bad <g>.
This is how I got onto thyroid etc...I had to phone the compounding pharmacies and ask which docs used them for the medication I wanted prescribed..kinda a back to front doc searchlately I've taken to internet searches for correspondence between docs in specialties I want, or looking up support groups literature of docs they use, then look up their treatment philosophies(usually not impressed) ..If I see intelligent questions asked/answered on the web I then try to find out what public hospitals (if any) they practise at ..and see then for free thru the outpatiets of the public hospital system.....you only have to convince a GP to write a referral here after you make the appointment. Problem here is they are soon stopping practising in public outpatients due to insurance coverage pricing etc.
Not easy, is it. I told my GP I wanted to see a different specialist as this specialis thas an interest in the field covering what suspect may be my problem ..(only he hadn't wanted to refer me)...so he gave me a referral anyway, probably thinking he'd forgotten to note the specialist referral...pushing it a bit I know, but you must be allowed to see a specialist for a second opinion???
>> If only androgel was OTC.
Yes, pity you don't want oestrogel, isn't it? Lol. I buy French oestrogel from England and pay for it in the US in US$...international shopping! I checked they don't sell testosterone. (I can get the oestrogen on script here now I know some docs into this field, but it's still cheaper to do it this way..maybe next time)
Unfortunatley testosterone is classed as one of those dangerous performance enhancing steroids ...you probably are not allowed to import steroids for your own use in Canada?
>
> > The comment about the fish oil...I came across what Larrian had told someone about adrenals in someone with pretty good looking blood levels but was feeling their adrenals were stressed out
> > ".....the only other way to deal with your adrenals is to eat a lot of omega fatty acid fish...say 1/2 pounds of salmon twice a week.....tuna....9 hours of sleep....deep breathing techniques...."
> >
> > Interesting , no?
>
> Fits with my understanding.
>
> > >I'm too early in the investigative process to decide anything. Haven't even ruled out cancer, yet. (the nasties get the first focus, of course, just in case)
> >
> > Of course, huh?? Hugs, Lar
> >
> > Fingers crossed, Jan
>
> First tests today.
>
> Thanks for the support.
>
> Lar
Hope it goes OK and you fail all the tests big time..like they are come back negative
BTW is intuition merely applied logic used against a background of experience? Sigh, that is disappointing if so.Re cortisol...you can buy it in cream form. It does absorb thru skin..but it's better to get the tests first.
Re Hydrocortisone cream ...I used to like a Sqibb brand..it was a really thick , completely clear sticky ointmentgel ..rather than a softer opaque cream..it worked really well. The white soft creams that absorb in your skin don't work as well(and I get itchy from their preservatives anyway).
They took the Squibb brand off the market a few years ago, but I found Egocort works OK..maybe not quite as well but acceptably. I mentioned this to a doc who didn't believe me..about a year later I note they have put out a caution
that this form may absorb thru skin..the docs never used to know.
It now comes with the following warning..did I have a big mouth or what!
"Pharmacology:Egocort Cream 1% has been shown to be considerably more effective because the hydrocortisone has been dissolved before inclusion in the base, and the base is a special occlusive type cream.
Indications:
Steroid-responsive skin conditions especially when fluorinated steroids are contra-indicated.
Caution: Because the hydrocortisone in Egocort Cream 1% is dissolved, (and therefore stronger in effect than the usual hydrocortisone preparations in which the hydrocortisone is not dissolved), it is suggested that Derm-Aid Cream is used for the face, mucous membranes, and for infants"So look for a clear ointment type thicker cream..rather than a white one that absorbs and disappears..for greater effect..wrap in plastic wrap.
This Egocort is still partly whitish, but OK.This is also available in a smaller tube otc.
It is NoT as strong as taking tablets..but you do get some benefit and it's all I need at present for a topup under stress.
I know I suggested this on the thyroid forum and quite a few have now had some relief also in the US (they also seem to be able to buty a hydrocortisone cream otc)Re dosing time..best to follow circadian cycle and imitate..especially with tablets as very short half life. The cream is much smoother and friendlier to take re half life and gradual benefit(naturally time released effect)...but it will only give small doses.
http://www.physiol.arizona.edu/PSIO467/fall01/slideshows/AssayandMeasurementofHormones.pdf pp17So the usual dose with tablets may be 10mg on waking, 5 mg midday, 5 mg 4Pm ..etc (about 20mg a day..some need up to 30mg for starters)
The book on this stuff I think is Jeffries "Safe uses of Cortisol"..I haven't read it (exxy and not available over here), but some rave about it. You might like it.With the cream , I think I started with about the equivalent of 50mg worth..as you don't absorb it all and gradually reduced to about 10 mg worth over a couple of months. You MUST taper cortisol if used longer than a week, and cream should not be rubbed into same place on skin for more than a week ..due to skin thinning effects.. Also you have to watch your immunity as immune system suppressed while on cortisol.
There used to be an adrenal forum too..but it closed a few weeks ago. There's a small adrenal section on the thyroid forum..
Don't be surprised if you need to treat adrenals to be able to treat testosterone..they work together (similarly with thyroid meds) You can invoke a addisonian crises with T3 if you take it with low adrenal function...Ok, all above is from my memory only
Here's a post on the forum
http://forums.about.com/fatigue1/messages?msg=362.7Larrian mentions an interplay between testosterone an adrenal fn
~ MEN ON CORTISOL NEED ANDROGENS-
Men on long term steroids for adrenal/pituitary problems need to make sure they keep track of their testosterone levels if they want to prevent bone and muscle mass loss. Now, you would THINK this was intuitive, but not to researchers - why -because they NEVER TESTED T levels before, just assuming they would be "normal." When they corrected the levels to "normal" range, lumbar spine bone mineral density INCREASED. They also noted a significant improvement in quality of life...just like women with estradiol/cortisol. Sigh.
J Clin Endocrin Metab 2003;88(7):3167Jan
Posted by tealady on October 11, 2003, at 6:52:33
In reply to Re: B12 reaction, NADH, nitrates » tealady, posted by Larry Hoover on September 28, 2003, at 14:41:47
Meant to post this earlier...
> Mag carbonate..I got this for $8 , I can't source any more for under $56 (although a few places left to try)..and probably not even that as factory closed for upgrade under govt pressure for about 6 weeks
>
> Oh, you mean that supplement supplier that was caught defrauding everybody? Did you try that supplier that was mentioned in that bluedog thread?No, that was another one <grin>
http://www.tga.health.gov.au/recalls/pan.htm...
This one just looked run down
http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/09/09/1062902057866.html
so they closed down quick after what happened to Pan
>
> > > > Also I was taking this form of VitC around the time of the injection..from a few hours before the dental visit to a few days after in large doses.
> > >
> > > Vitamin C is good for the gums.
> >
> > Yes, I know. I need to take it in larger doses for at least a week before I see a dentist or they won't treat me, as my gums get too red and swollen, and bleed too easy.
>
> That could also mean that you are deficient in coenzyme Q-10.haven't tried that one as yet. It has been on my list..will move it up in priority.
I forgot to order Betaine from US. Would betaine hydrochloride be OK, if one put it into a vege cap or gel cap first so it gets to the stomach hopefully to avoid irritation??
Is this a way or adding HCL to the gut if it may be needed?
Betaine not available in Oz.....Betaine Hydrochoride is.>All of the ascorbic acid or ascorbate entering the stomach will be in the form of ascorbic acid after mere seconds. The HCL puts the proton back onto ascorbate.
> >
> > Lar, thanks heaps. That means I was doing the right thing even if I was getting some methaemoglobulin reaction thingy. I'm still convinced it has something to do with it.
>
> The latter effect is very individual. You'd be wise to avoid prilocaine like the plague. No point going there.No
>
> > I have a slight nitrate reaction too..I'll find out what enzyme that is again, and get back to you on it, if I may? I'm think it's tied in too. I have to go now.
>
> Kewl. I'll lend you my brain any time you want. <grin>
blush, ta
> > I've been prescribed DHEA & 7keto DHEA to try ..she reckoned it might help my brain and reckoned the DHEA helped her lose weight?.
>
> Do you have any evidence of low androgen function?
Not sure what that would means exactly in symptoms.
My testosterone increased from 2.3 to 3.0 (range 1-4.5)
DHEAS decreased from 6.0 to 4.3..normal should be about 7- 8ish I think(doc reckons 10-12, but I think that's overboard).
The doc takes it herself and reckons it works for her, so I'll give it a go..at least once
BTW DHEA, progesterone etc are prescription only in Oz,
Actually just ordered it..got compounding pharmacy to use MgCl2 as a filler....I hope.
Hope that works out OK, if they do it. (capsules)Didn't you try DHEA? How did you go on it?
> An enzyme does not know anything about the direction of a reaction. It simply makes the reaction itself more likely. If what we conceive of as the products of a reaction are in high concentration, the reaction will proceed in reverse (relative to our thinking). What usually makes the enzyme-driven reaction go "forward" is that the products get moved away quickly, or used up. The enzyme is then "exposed" to greater relative concentrations of the precursors (raw materials in our thinking), and the enzyme goes "forward".
Thanks Lar, I've always wondered how it worked.
How's it going with you?Jan
Posted by Larry Hoover on October 11, 2003, at 10:21:39
In reply to Re: Supplements (cont from somewhere?) » Larry Hoover, posted by tealady on October 11, 2003, at 6:52:33
Last thing first....
> How's it going with you?
I had a mini-slump. Blind-sided me, but in hindsight, I had let my self-care deteriorate during my time of increased functioning. Increased demand at a time of decreased supply is a recipe for disaster. Learning curve...I know what to do about, it would seem. Got myself out of it in short order.
> Meant to post this earlier...
> > Mag carbonate..I got this for $8 , I can't source any more for under $56 (although a few places left to try)..and probably not even that as factory closed for upgrade under govt pressure for about 6 weeks
> >
> > Oh, you mean that supplement supplier that was caught defrauding everybody? Did you try that supplier that was mentioned in that bluedog thread?
>
> No, that was another one <grin>
> http://www.tga.health.gov.au/recalls/pan.htm...
> This one just looked run down
> http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/09/09/1062902057866.html
> so they closed down quick after what happened to PanI really wish the supplement industry was more ethical. It's just so hard to know who to trust.
> > > > > Also I was taking this form of VitC around the time of the injection..from a few hours before the dental visit to a few days after in large doses.
> > > >
> > > > Vitamin C is good for the gums.
> > >
> > > Yes, I know. I need to take it in larger doses for at least a week before I see a dentist or they won't treat me, as my gums get too red and swollen, and bleed too easy.
> >
> > That could also mean that you are deficient in coenzyme Q-10.
>
> haven't tried that one as yet. It has been on my list..will move it up in priority.An accepted treatment protocol for gingivitis (i.e. dentists approve of it!), is ubiquinone, also know as Co Q10.
> I forgot to order Betaine from US. Would betaine hydrochloride be OK, if one put it into a vege cap or gel cap first so it gets to the stomach hopefully to avoid irritation??That's reasonable.
> Is this a way or adding HCL to the gut if it may be needed?
The amount provided is trivial. The argument that betaine hydrochloride increases stomach acid via the hydrochloride is , uhhh, weak. Betaine promotes hydrochloric acid synthesis. It is coincidental that a hydrochloride salt of the promoter happens to be available.
> Betaine not available in Oz.....Betaine Hydrochoride is.
Take what you can get. It wouldn't hurt to increase your beet consumption, too. Beta is Latin for beet, and betaine is "that amino acid thingie found in beets".
> >All of the ascorbic acid or ascorbate entering the stomach will be in the form of ascorbic acid after mere seconds. The HCL puts the proton back onto ascorbate.
> > >
> > > Lar, thanks heaps. That means I was doing the right thing even if I was getting some methaemoglobulin reaction thingy. I'm still convinced it has something to do with it.
> >
> > The latter effect is very individual. You'd be wise to avoid prilocaine like the plague. No point going there.
>
> No
> >
> > > I have a slight nitrate reaction too..I'll find out what enzyme that is again, and get back to you on it, if I may? I'm think it's tied in too. I have to go now.
> >
> > Kewl. I'll lend you my brain any time you want. <grin>
> blush, taI'm serious. Whenever I tell people "You wouldn't want my brain", they don't get it. I *need* something for it to do. The "noise" is/can be incredible. Might as well drown out the noise with something useful, eh?
> > > I've been prescribed DHEA & 7keto DHEA to try ..she reckoned it might help my brain and reckoned the DHEA helped her lose weight?.
> >
> > Do you have any evidence of low androgen function?
> Not sure what that would means exactly in symptoms.
> My testosterone increased from 2.3 to 3.0 (range 1-4.5)
> DHEAS decreased from 6.0 to 4.3..normal should be about 7- 8ish I think(doc reckons 10-12, but I think that's overboard).Depends on how you apply the age/gender guidelines.
> The doc takes it herself and reckons it works for her, so I'll give it a go..at least once
It's definitely worth a try, and you're getting proper medical support.
> BTW DHEA, progesterone etc are prescription only in Oz,
I get my DHEA in the States.
> Actually just ordered it..got compounding pharmacy to use MgCl2 as a filler....I hope.
> Hope that works out OK, if they do it. (capsules)Sounds good.
> Didn't you try DHEA? How did you go on it?I haven't taken it consistently.....I end up becoming a little afraid of messing with my hormones blindly. I plan to pay for blood hormone panels (they're not part of our health care coverage). Then, I'll intervene as indicated by *my* interpretation of the results. Those (normal) ranges they use are arbitrary.
> > An enzyme does not know anything about the direction of a reaction. It simply makes the reaction itself more likely. If what we conceive of as the products of a reaction are in high concentration, the reaction will proceed in reverse (relative to our thinking). What usually makes the enzyme-driven reaction go "forward" is that the products get moved away quickly, or used up. The enzyme is then "exposed" to greater relative concentrations of the precursors (raw materials in our thinking), and the enzyme goes "forward".
>
> Thanks Lar, I've always wondered how it worked.
> JanYou're welcome.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on October 11, 2003, at 10:48:25
In reply to Re: cortisol, testosterone » Larry Hoover, posted by tealady on October 11, 2003, at 2:33:23
> > Simply put, deficiencies in either hydrocortisone or T3 will block proper development of neurons (particularly their ability to fire appropriately). Given that we now know that the adult brain can still generate new neurons, and new connections between them, cognitive defects will be likely if adrenal function (source of HC), thyroid hormone synthesis (T4), or thyroid hormone deiodination (to make T3) is/are messed up.
>
> Thanks heaps Lar. That means hydrocortisone does actually do sometihing other than merely reduce the T3 level.Everything is so enmeshed, the way the interactions pile onto other interactions, I hesitate to even try to simplify. Whenever you simplify, you lose information.
Yes, hydrocortisone is good for the brain, up to a limit. I know that too much kills neurons.
> >
> > > Anyway, IMO I think there's a fair bet from your comments that you are lowish too..and if so that would overwork your adrenals a tad..so they come out a bit stressed out.
> >
> > I've believed I have adrenal fatigue for years now. Couldn't get help with that, either.
> >
> See if you can get the following tests from your doc.
> blood tests
> 8Am and 4Pm cortisol (note 8Am must be taken fasting and preferably between say 7.30Am and 8.30AM..preferably after just rising out of bed, without drinking, eating , brushing teeth, no activtity as much as possible..just roll up to blood testing site..if you have them over there
>
> 4Pm..taken after normal daily activityThey only do a.m. testing. Or twenty-four urinary analysis. Neither evaluates the diurnal cycling of cortisol, which is as important as total excreted, or morning concentrations.
That's one of the reasons I mentioned I wish I could afford the testing I want.
> Also a saliva test..over here if I get a doc to prescribe them I get a rebate of a fair bit of it on Medicare. Saliva test should be a 4 times a day test..you can ask for it even if not usually done at lab (I did)..saliva tests you do at home..we have a courier pick up the samples and air freight to lab at no extra cost.The only one I know of that does that is in the States, and I believe that a doctor has to order the fool thing in the first place.
> Saliva tests should be done 8am fasting (as above with blood test)..no activity /drink (even water) beforehand..they should tell you this. Also
> Noon, 4Pm and midnight..I could never last this long but made about 11.15pm or so..by then I was so low it was not measurable on test.Now *that's* a critical bit of info.
Maybe I should emigrate?
> > Maybe if I win the lottery, I can go to the States and buy the care I want. :-/
>
> ya, my dream too..reckon winning lotto is the top antiD.Winning the lottery would permit choices not presently avaialable to me.
> If you want accurate cortisol tests..no DHEA probably a month before or even 2 months , no VitC,B5 , multi B , licorice, ginseng etc etc for a period beforehand..probably only a few days..perhaps a week for the water soluble vits perhaps 2 weeks for the rest? I'm sure you can work it out <g>One thing at a time, I guess. First, my prostate.
> Also a good test for you would be 21 hydroxylase antibodies..but that is harder to get, not run by many labs and exxy (Larrian likes this one) I've got references you can show your doc if interested, ..mine aren't <g> I can't even find a lab in Oz that can run them. If you have these antibodies it can prove an adrenal problem..I guess you need a good specialist for this kinda stuffMaybe I'll get that, before too long.
> I think you should do the tests, and I was thinking what you were descibing as fried brain sounded a tad like an adrenal crash usually brought on by pushing oneself and using all reserve up...That's certainly a possible mechanism for my chronic fatigue, periodic crashing. That's what I think happens.
> Re doc situation..there's a shortage over here too. If you don't already have a doc,,they don't accept new patients around my way...but I was going to 2 different surgeries before they clamped down..It's the surgeries decision themselves , not govt. regulated.Presently, in my small city, over 20% of the population has no doctor. We also have a rather higher than average percentage of the elderly, so things are under huge pressure.
There is no way I can change doctors. Nobody is taking referrals, even if I could get one. My present doctor, named Whatley, is known as "Wait and see Whatley" within the medical community. If something isn't clearly and overtly indicated, you ain't gettin' it.
> They PREFER you to only have the one regular GP..but I've found different GP's have their own specialties..like one was trained in paedeatrics and another would set bones to save you going to hospital. I've another in BN that does free accupunture (chinese).
> What I've found with the hormone stuff..none of the GP's in my area will touch it..but if I travel to the rich suburbs ..ya know where the right wing politicians and CEO's etc live..they have an oversupply of docs..a lot of docs into antiaging etc..and while they do charge more, I can get tests run thru them for free...so it works out a lot cheaper overall.I did internet searches on the sort of doctor I wanted to see, but none of them are accepting new patients. It isn't a matter of money (it's illegal for any doctor to charge anything), it's that there aren't enough doctors to go around. Given the high-maintenance level required to effectively treat hormonal disturbances, specialists already have way more work than they can handle.
> If you check first some give discounts to health care card holders..some treat free..and some charge full price. Some ran labs free..some charge as they have already exceeded their govt limit..the newer ones still haven't usually <g>.
> It's just working around the system.I like your system better than ours.
> Problem is you have to find out all the backgound on the tests yourself that you need and know what to suggest and what labs they will use..as there are good and bad labs too.
> I was lucky as I explained I couldn't afford to see one regularly and she treated me for free for a while...I was told I looked so bad <g>.Everything I get is free, except for those darn tests I'll have to pay for.
> This is how I got onto thyroid etc...I had to phone the compounding pharmacies and ask which docs used them for the medication I wanted prescribed..kinda a back to front doc search
>
> lately I've taken to internet searches for correspondence between docs in specialties I want, or looking up support groups literature of docs they use, then look up their treatment philosophies(usually not impressed) ..If I see intelligent questions asked/answered on the web I then try to find out what public hospitals (if any) they practise at ..and see then for free thru the outpatiets of the public hospital system.....you only have to convince a GP to write a referral here after you make the appointment. Problem here is they are soon stopping practising in public outpatients due to insurance coverage pricing etc.That's just what I tried, but it didn't work. My doctor would happily write the referrals. They simply came to nought.
> Not easy, is it. I told my GP I wanted to see a different specialist as this specialis thas an interest in the field covering what suspect may be my problem ..(only he hadn't wanted to refer me)...so he gave me a referral anyway, probably thinking he'd forgotten to note the specialist referral...pushing it a bit I know, but you must be allowed to see a specialist for a second opinion???
Not without my doctor's support, no. Or some doctor's support, but you're not likely to get a referral to a specialist from an emergency room physician.
>
> >
>
> > If only androgel was OTC.
>
> Yes, pity you don't want oestrogel, isn't it? Lol. I buy French oestrogel from England and pay for it in the US in US$...international shopping! I checked they don't sell testosterone. (I can get the oestrogen on script here now I know some docs into this field, but it's still cheaper to do it this way..maybe next time)
> Unfortunatley testosterone is classed as one of those dangerous performance enhancing steroids ...you probably are not allowed to import steroids for your own use in Canada?Correct. All because there are idiots who abuse it.
> > > The comment about the fish oil...I came across what Larrian had told someone about adrenals in someone with pretty good looking blood levels but was feeling their adrenals were stressed out
> > > ".....the only other way to deal with your adrenals is to eat a lot of omega fatty acid fish...say 1/2 pounds of salmon twice a week.....tuna....9 hours of sleep....deep breathing techniques...."
> > >
> > > Interesting , no?
> >
> > Fits with my understanding.
> >
> > > >I'm too early in the investigative process to decide anything. Haven't even ruled out cancer, yet. (the nasties get the first focus, of course, just in case)
> > >
> > > Of course, huh?? Hugs, Lar
> > >
> > > Fingers crossed, Jan
> >
> > First tests today.
> >
> > Thanks for the support.
> >
> > Lar
> Hope it goes OK and you fail all the tests big time..like they are come back negativeFind out Tuesday.
> BTW is intuition merely applied logic used against a background of experience? Sigh, that is disappointing if so.
Intuition is an act of faith, IMHO. A sense of knowledge without needing to know why, or perhaps without any evidence at all. What you describe makes me think of the concept of an educated guess.
> Re cortisol...you can buy it in cream form. It does absorb thru skin..but it's better to get the tests first.I've been on steroids for years, for asthma (budesonide). I know it has systemic effects, but again, nobody seems to be interested in checking me out to see the exact nature of the effects.
> Re Hydrocortisone cream ...> Re dosing time..best to follow circadian cycle and imitate..especially with tablets as very short half life. The cream is much smoother and friendlier to take re half life and gradual benefit(naturally time released effect)...but it will only give small doses.
> http://www.physiol.arizona.edu/PSIO467/fall01/slideshows/AssayandMeasurementofHormones.pdf pp17
>
> So the usual dose with tablets may be 10mg on waking, 5 mg midday, 5 mg 4Pm ..etc (about 20mg a day..some need up to 30mg for starters)
> The book on this stuff I think is Jeffries "Safe uses of Cortisol"..I haven't read it (exxy and not available over here), but some rave about it. You might like it.
>
> With the cream , I think I started with about the equivalent of 50mg worth..as you don't absorb it all and gradually reduced to about 10 mg worth over a couple of months. You MUST taper cortisol if used longer than a week, and cream should not be rubbed into same place on skin for more than a week ..due to skin thinning effects.. Also you have to watch your immunity as immune system suppressed while on cortisol.How would you know how to correlate skin cream and miligrams dosed? For example, I have 1% hydrocortisone cream, but how big a blob is what dose?
> There used to be an adrenal forum too..but it closed a few weeks ago. There's a small adrenal section on the thyroid forum..
> Don't be surprised if you need to treat adrenals to be able to treat testosterone..they work together (similarly with thyroid meds) You can invoke a addisonian crises with T3 if you take it with low adrenal function...Everything is linked to everything else. Messing with hormones directly is kind of scary for me.
> Ok, all above is from my memory only
> Here's a post on the forum
> http://forums.about.com/fatigue1/messages?msg=362.7
>
> Larrian mentions an interplay between testosterone an adrenal fn
> ~ MEN ON CORTISOL NEED ANDROGENS-
> Men on long term steroids for adrenal/pituitary problems need to make sure they keep track of their testosterone levels if they want to prevent bone and muscle mass loss. Now, you would THINK this was intuitive, but not to researchers - why -because they NEVER TESTED T levels before, just assuming they would be "normal." When they corrected the levels to "normal" range, lumbar spine bone mineral density INCREASED. They also noted a significant improvement in quality of life...just like women with estradiol/cortisol. Sigh.
> J Clin Endocrin Metab 2003;88(7):3167
>
> JanThanks. You've convinced me to pay for the testosterone panel too.
Lar
Posted by Ron Hill on October 11, 2003, at 16:23:59
In reply to Re: B12 reaction, NADH, nitrates » tealady, posted by Larry Hoover on September 28, 2003, at 14:41:47
Hey Larry,
> Now, the sublingual is 10 mg. I use the 5 mg enteric, but in future I'll get the 2.5.
I had to quit taking Enada NADH due to irritability. Please send me an e-mail so that I can talk to you privately. Send it to: ron-hill at att dot com. I've encrypted my address in hopes of keeping the spammers from picking it up off of this page.
-- Ron
Posted by Larry Hoover on October 12, 2003, at 12:26:45
In reply to Re: Enada NADH » Larry Hoover, posted by Ron Hill on October 11, 2003, at 16:23:59
> Hey Larry,
>
> > Now, the sublingual is 10 mg. I use the 5 mg enteric, but in future I'll get the 2.5.
>
> I had to quit taking Enada NADH due to irritability. Please send me an e-mail so that I can talk to you privately. Send it to: ron-hill at att dot com. I've encrypted my address in hopes of keeping the spammers from picking it up off of this page.
>
> -- RonDid you get my email?
Posted by tealady on October 12, 2003, at 22:28:40
In reply to Re: cortisol, testosterone » tealady, posted by Larry Hoover on October 11, 2003, at 10:48:25
> They only do a.m. testing. Or twenty-four urinary analysis. Neither evaluates the diurnal cycling of cortisol, which is as important as total excreted, or morning concentrations.
>Well the AM test can tell a bit. The urine test is usually only useful for cushings
If you were diagnosed with chronic fatigue, did they do a morning cortisol?
> > > Maybe if I win the lottery, I can go to the States and buy the care I want. :-/
> >
> > ya, my dream too..reckon winning lotto is the top antiD.
>
> Winning the lottery would permit choices not presently avaialable to me.that's how it works
>
>
> One thing at a time, I guess. First, my prostate.
>
> > Also a good test for you would be 21 hydroxylase antibodies..but that is harder to get, not run by many labs and exxy (Larrian likes this one) I've got references you can show your doc if interested, ..mine aren't <g> I can't even find a lab in Oz that can run them. If you have these antibodies it can prove an adrenal problem..I guess you need a good specialist for this kinda stuff
>
> Maybe I'll get that, before too long.
>
> There is no way I can change doctors. Nobody is taking referrals, even if I could get one.yeh, I could only find one really good pdoc, and he wasn't taking new patients either
My present doctor, named Whatley, is known as "Wait and see Whatley" within the medical community. If something isn't clearly and overtly indicated, you ain't gettin' it.
Can you take along studies and emphasize your symptoms to show that the referral is clearly indicated?
>
>> > lately I've taken to internet searches for correspondence between docs in specialties I want, or looking up support groups literature of docs they use, then look up their treatment philosophies(usually not impressed) ..If I see intelligent questions asked/answered on the web I then try to find out what public hospitals (if any) they practise at ..and see then for free thru the outpatiets of the public hospital system.....you only have to convince a GP to write a referral here after you make the appointment. Problem here is they are soon stopping practising in public outpatients due to insurance coverage pricing etc.
>
> That's just what I tried, but it didn't work. My doctor would happily write the referrals. They simply came to nought.So he will write you referrals?
>
> > Not easy, is it. I told my GP I wanted to see a different specialist as this specialis thas an interest in the field covering what suspect may be my problem ..(only he hadn't wanted to refer me)...so he gave me a referral anyway, probably thinking he'd forgotten to note the specialist referral...pushing it a bit I know, but you must be allowed to see a specialist for a second opinion???
>
> Not without my doctor's support, no. Or some doctor's support, but you're not likely to get a referral to a specialist from an emergency room physician.That's not what I meant. I made some appointments where the specialists practise in the outpatient clinics of the major teaching hospitals ..THEN to get a referral from my doc to them after I make the appointment and try to give good reasons why this I need to see thuis particular specialist to my GP. It just seems to work better this way, otherwise I can't get the referrals. You're right emergency rooms would not answer.
Problem with this approach sometimes get to see the students, but they usually get checked over by the specialist..so you still have a chance of getting the tests you need run..and I get to see if I like the doc or not without using up too much money
> > Hope it goes OK and you fail all the tests big time..like they are come back negative
>
> Find out Tuesday.
>
> > BTW is intuition merely applied logic used against a background of experience? Sigh, that is disappointing if so.
>
> Intuition is an act of faith, IMHO. A sense of knowledge without needing to know why, or perhaps without any evidence at all. What you describe makes me think of the concept of an educated guess.Lar, that's a lovely definition of intuition.. re the educated guess..not much education or guessing needed
>
> > Re cortisol...you can buy it in cream form. It does absorb thru skin..but it's better to get the tests first.
>
> I've been on steroids for years, for asthma (budesonide). I know it has systemic effects, but again, nobody seems to be interested in checking me out to see the exact nature of the effects.hmm..one would expect that to increase your cortisol level as it's known to have systemic effects, as you say. Do you take all the time, or only occasionally?
I was supposed to have my kids and me on similar all the time , but I decided against that one..and kids grew out of it..and I'm fine now I'm on thyroid meds.
Did you read that Dr Derry thread on the thyroid forum..BTW if you do ever read it, click on "advanced view" at bottom of page to view 20 messages in one go>
>
> > Re Hydrocortisone cream ...
> > With the cream , I think I started with about the equivalent of 50mg worth..as you don't absorb it all and gradually reduced to about 10 mg worth over a couple of months. You MUST taper cortisol if used longer than a week, and cream should not be rubbed into same place on skin for more than a week ..due to skin thinning effects.. Also you have to watch your immunity as immune system suppressed while on cortisol.
>
> How would you know how to correlate skin cream and miligrams dosed? For example, I have 1% hydrocortisone cream, but how big a blob is what dose?
>
> > There used to be an adrenal forum too..but it closed a few weeks ago. There's a small adrenal section on the thyroid forum..
> > Don't be surprised if you need to treat adrenals to be able to treat testosterone..they work together (similarly with thyroid meds) You can invoke a addisonian crises with T3 if you take it with low adrenal function...
>
> Everything is linked to everything else. Messing with hormones directly is kind of scary for me.Should be too...that's why I think testing and a good specialist, even if out of area..is the preferable way to go
>
> > Ok, all above is from my memory only
> > Here's a post on the forum
> > http://forums.about.com/fatigue1/messages?msg=362.7Whoops , that link won't link..no idea how I posted that!
It was 10mg/g(1%) and there was 50g in the tube..so I started with about 1/10 of a tube..50mg as I doubt you absorb it all.
(in truth, I think the first day I probably used more than this..then cut back). You can judge what percentage of the tube you use..and there is no real reason to be that exact, as long as you taper off gradually.
It actually works quite well as is not as "sudden" as hydrocortisone tablets..it seems to release slower in a smaller dose. I used it in the end to get a smoother dose....rubbed on my inner elbow and inner lower arm mainly...although sometimes outer lower arm and just above elbow.(actually this was where my muscles were really sore anywayar the time) I have heard there is very good absorption in the neck area..but it may be too much except for an occasional needed sudden desperation -type boost.
I think I ended up taking the tablets in the morning and lunchtime..and then cream about 4pm ish ..to last thru the night.
Just tapered the cream down so only using a dab in the end...even after discontinued tablets, as a part of tapering off.
I still use very occasionally and it helps..although I seem to survive on those Dutch black cat lollies (salty licorice)...if anything I would say I'm highish on cortisol now.> Thanks. You've convinced me to pay for the testosterone panel too.
>
Sorry for the rant Lar. Just sounded like you'd given up in a previous post for some reason..and one has just got to just keep trying with all of this. "Your special, ya know" <g>Jan
Posted by Ron Hill on October 13, 2003, at 18:02:53
In reply to Re: Enada NADH » Ron Hill, posted by Larry Hoover on October 12, 2003, at 12:26:45
> Did you get my email?
No, and after re-reading my post I see why; I gave the wrong address. Try this: ron-hill at att dot net (as opposed to dot com as previously provided).
Sorry Lar, and thanks.
-- Ron
Posted by Larry Hoover on October 17, 2003, at 15:21:12
In reply to Re: cortisol, testosterone » Larry Hoover, posted by tealady on October 12, 2003, at 22:28:40
> > They only do a.m. testing. Or twenty-four urinary analysis. Neither evaluates the diurnal cycling of cortisol, which is as important as total excreted, or morning concentrations.
> >
>
> Well the AM test can tell a bit. The urine test is usually only useful for cushings
> If you were diagnosed with chronic fatigue, did they do a morning cortisol?Yes. I was "within normal range".
> > > Also a good test for you would be 21 hydroxylase antibodies..but that is harder to get, not run by many labs and exxy (Larrian likes this one) I've got references you can show your doc if interested, ..mine aren't <g> I can't even find a lab in Oz that can run them. If you have these antibodies it can prove an adrenal problem..I guess you need a good specialist for this kinda stuffWell, I've been referred to a urologist, anyway. Definitely something going on, but not yet sure just what.
> > My present doctor, named Whatley, is known as "Wait and see Whatley" within the medical community. If something isn't clearly and overtly indicated, you ain't gettin' it.
>
> Can you take along studies and emphasize your symptoms to show that the referral is clearly indicated?Referrals are useless without someone to be referred to. Past referrals have been moot, as the doctors in question were not accepting new patients.
> > That's just what I tried, but it didn't work. My doctor would happily write the referrals. They simply came to nought.
>
> So he will write you referrals?Yes, but the outcome is moot.
> > Not without my doctor's support, no. Or some doctor's support, but you're not likely to get a referral to a specialist from an emergency room physician.
>
> That's not what I meant. I made some appointments where the specialists practise in the outpatient clinics of the major teaching hospitals ..THEN to get a referral from my doc to them after I make the appointment and try to give good reasons why this I need to see thuis particular specialist to my GP.I can't make an appointment first. Our system will not permit that approach. Only with a referral can you make an appointment.
> It just seems to work better this way, otherwise I can't get the referrals. You're right emergency rooms would not answer.They're the only other doctors I have a right to see, sans referral.
Now, as luck would have it, that might be changing for me. My physician just joined a new-fangled entity called a community care network. If I understand correctly, I may see different doctors when mine is unavailable, and the alternate will have access to my full medical history via file-sharing.
> > > BTW is intuition merely applied logic used against a background of experience? Sigh, that is disappointing if so.
> >
> > Intuition is an act of faith, IMHO. A sense of knowledge without needing to know why, or perhaps without any evidence at all. What you describe makes me think of the concept of an educated guess.
>
> Lar, that's a lovely definition of intuition.. re the educated guess..not much education or guessing neededGlad you liked it.
>> hmm..one would expect that to increase your cortisol level as it's known to have systemic effects, as you say. Do you take all the time, or only occasionally?
I used to take it all the time, but recently, I've not felt the need. Now, rather than increase cortisol, would it not have a suppressing action? Perhaps my reduction in the use of busedonide has become a part of my current problem?
> Did you read that Dr Derry thread on the thyroid forum..BTW if you do ever read it, click on "advanced view" at bottom of page to view 20 messages in one go
Could you give me the link again, please? I've had some problems getting my new computer configured, and it would be nice if I could start anew.
> > Everything is linked to everything else. Messing with hormones directly is kind of scary for me.
>
> Should be too...that's why I think testing and a good specialist, even if out of area..is the preferable way to goI'll have more info soon. I paid for some special bloodwork.
> > > Ok, all above is from my memory only
> > > Here's a post on the forum> It was 10mg/g(1%) and there was 50g in the tube..so I started with about 1/10 of a tube..50mg as I doubt you absorb it all.
I guess I can do that math.
> (in truth, I think the first day I probably used more than this..then cut back). You can judge what percentage of the tube you use..and there is no real reason to be that exact, as long as you taper off gradually.
I'm going to wait a little bit, and see what the specialist says.
> It actually works quite well as is not as "sudden" as hydrocortisone tablets..it seems to release slower in a smaller dose. I used it in the end to get a smoother dose....rubbed on my inner elbow and inner lower arm mainly...although sometimes outer lower arm and just above elbow.(actually this was where my muscles were really sore anywayar the time) I have heard there is very good absorption in the neck area..but it may be too much except for an occasional needed sudden desperation -type boost.
Funny, but I've never given much thought to topical steroids.....I've got a fair bit of them around the house. You can also buy 1% hydrocort creams.
> I think I ended up taking the tablets in the morning and lunchtime..and then cream about 4pm ish ..to last thru the night.
> Just tapered the cream down so only using a dab in the end...even after discontinued tablets, as a part of tapering off.
> I still use very occasionally and it helps..although I seem to survive on those Dutch black cat lollies (salty licorice)...if anything I would say I'm highish on cortisol now.Well, I don't like licorice myself, but I've got licorice root caps.
> > Thanks. You've convinced me to pay for the testosterone panel too.
> >
> Sorry for the rant Lar.Rant? Rant? Where?
> Just sounded like you'd given up in a previous post for some reason..and one has just got to just keep trying with all of this.
Not given up.....frustrated, though. I know enough to want to get mucking around, but I need a medical collaborator. No such luck, as of yet.
> "Your special, ya know" <g>
>
> JanThanks, sweetie.
L8r,
Lar
Posted by tealady on October 19, 2003, at 6:03:14
In reply to Re: cortisol, testosterone » tealady, posted by Larry Hoover on October 17, 2003, at 15:21:12
> >
> > Well the AM test can tell a bit. The urine test is usually only useful for cushings
> > If you were diagnosed with chronic fatigue, did they do a morning cortisol?
>
> Yes. I was "within normal range".So informative! The "rule of thumb" (hehe) which seemed to work for most was if over 15 (morning basal cortisol) (US) ..multiply by 28 (27.59) for our units...meant you were OK to start thyroid meds probably.
http://www.unc.edu/~rowlett/units/scales/clinical_data.html
http://www.sydpath.stvincents.com.au/other/Conversions/ConversionMasterF3Mid.htm
Personally I felt it should be 17 to be sure, 15 was OK and under 12 was iffy..usually indicating need of adrenal support before and while start thyroid meds.
My non medically educated Opinion ONly formed from is a couple of years observations.I've just gone looking and found this study (seeing as you like studies) (I think the "normal " ranges in the US are roughly 6-22 or 6-25 from memory
Evaluation of the integrity of the hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal axis by insulin hypoglycemia test.
Erturk E, Jaffe CA, Barkan AL.
Department of Internal Medicine, University of Michigan Medical Center, Ann Arbor 48109, USA.
We retrospectively reviewed dynamic ACTH and cortisol responses to insulin hypoglycemia in 193 subjects with suspected ACTH deficiency to ascertain the predictive values of various diagnostic criteria. Based on the achievement of a peak cortisol level of 18 micrograms/dL or above, 133 subjects were classified as having an intact hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal (HPA) axis, and 60 subjects were determined to have ACTH deficiency. Baseline and peak cortisol concentrations were strongly correlated (r = 0.63; P < 0.0001). Peak cortisol increased in parallel to ACTH increments, but plateaued at approximately 22 micrograms/dL at peak ACTH levels above approximately 75 pg/mL (r = 0.61; P < 0.0001). BASAL CORTISOL VALUES ABOVE 17 micrograms/dL or below 4 micrograms/dL were highly predictive of an intact or impaired HPA axis, respectively, but intermediate values had only limited sensitivity and specificity. The criteria of HPA axis integrity, defined as an increment in plasma cortisol of more than 7 micrograms/dL above the baseline or as a doubling of the baseline cortisol value, were associated with high false positive and false negative rates. We conclude that 1) the baseline morning serum cortisol concentration has very limited predictive power in differentiating between normal and impaired HPA function; 2) the use of criteria based on incremental changes in serum cortisol from baseline leads to unacceptably high false positive and false negative rates; and 3) insulin hypoglycemia is still the best indicator of the integrity of the response of the HPA axis to stress.
PMID: 9661607 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
(it's got a free full text..but I haven't read it)
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=9661607&dopt=Abstract
Note..it also said 17 was a safe level for predicting normal adrenal function....love it when studies agree with observationsNow WHY am I going on about basal adrenal levels needed before commencing thyroid meds....because when you start thyroid meds it really hits your adrenals hard as probably when your metabolism kicks in your adrenals are called to work harder then they are used to, and without these levels one goes into some degree of a kinda adrenal crisis..one crashes and one does not tolerate the thyroid meds..can get racing heart beats/or irregular racing and pounding etc, tendonitis, tight muscles, aches and pains all over, just crash in a heap, extreme fatigue, difficulty breathing... you have a great choice of symptoms
So how does this relate to you? I suspect that improving nutrition and taking phenylalanine etc would have a similar though lesser effect as commencing thyroid meds..so any adrenals which aren't functioning optimally will be put under a bit of strain...not as much as commencing thyroid meds..but the same kinda thing
> I can't make an appointment first. Our system will not permit that approach. Only with a referral can you make an appointment.
Well you ain't supposed to here either! I just give them a referring doc's name then look for the referral. I was forced into this after wasting at least 10 years of my life not being aggressive enough and just accepting some more AntiD's etc. I think I learnt to be more aggressive and to voice my symptoms etc. from the forums on the net.
>
>
> > It just seems to work better this way, otherwise I can't get the referrals. You're right emergency rooms would not answer.
>
> They're the only other doctors I have a right to see, sans referral.me too
> >
> > Lar, that's a lovely definition of intuition..
> Glad you liked it.
<grin>>
> >> hmm..one would expect that to increase your cortisol level as it's known to have systemic effects, as you say. Do you take all the time, or only occasionally?
>
> I used to take it all the time, but recently, I've not felt the need.That's good sign that fish oil is working, huh.(and the good nutrition, vits, amino acids etc)
Now, rather than increase cortisol, would it not have a suppressing action?
No. well not exactly.
Inhalation corticosteroids are cortisone-like medicines so if you cut back too fast it's similar to cutting back cortisol too fast.
I had come across some studies earlier this year on this.
Just went looking again
Here goes
"RESULTS: A decreased adrenal reserve was observed 1 month after withdrawal of GCs in 50% of the chronically treated patients. Adrenal cortex function returned to normal in 55% of patients within 6 months, in 24% within 12 months, and in 14% within 15 months of discontinuation of systemic GCs administration. A significant positive correlation between the time taken for return to normal adrenal cortex function and duration of the disease and of GCs therapy was found. "
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=12713606&dopt=Abstract
Adrenal cortex function in asthmatic patients following the discontinuation of chronic therapy with systemic glucocorticosteroids.
Also , it is usually found that those on long term corticosteroids for asthma may develop "cushingoid" features..aka weight gain..which they lose on discontinuation ...perhaps a part reason for some weight loss?When I said "No,not exactly"..there is an effect with cortisol (as with thyroid meds) that continuous long tem administration, especially if too high, may shut down the adrenal production also.
http://www.mja.com.au/public/issues/178_05_030303/mac10571_fm.html#i1082551
Note the cushingoid appearance in the PAST..when it goes past this stage , you can get adrenal suppression (similar to chronic stress for years)"Although he had been noted to have a cushingoid appearance in the past, he was normal on physical examination, his height and weight were on the 3rd percentile, and his growth velocity was normal. He was found to be hypoglycaemic and hyponatraemic, with a low serum cortisol level "
"Ongoing treatment involved giving regular hydrocortisone while reducing the dose of ICS, with no deterioration of asthma control. Four months after his presentation he was taking 500 μg fluticasone daily and being weaned off hydrocortisone"
OR another case "Treatment and clinical course: Therapy with replacement hydrocortisone was begun while the ICS dose was gradually decreased to two puffs of Seretide 50/25 twice daily (giving 200 μg fluticasone daily); hydrocortisone therapy was continued for four months and is now taken as stress cover for intercurrent illness"So here they give hydrocortisone to build adrenal levels while reducing the dose of asthma meds
Also look at this
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=2548097&dopt=Abstract
This is what I think happened to me ..for many years since a child..to cause the thirst.
I'm not AS thirsty anymore. Hydrocortisone has mild mineralocorticord properties too..and my blood tests confirm this. (PS. This answers the question you posed to me about thirst and diabetes way back, no I don't have sugar diabetes,..but I suspected I might have had this kind..never could get tested though, so just assumed it)
"Hydrocortisone has some mineralocorticoid action, and its use as sole replacement therapy was sufficient to restore electrolyte balance in these instances"
Larrian told me I must have something up with vasopressin and angiotensin when I was discussing PMS migraines..so I've been trying to link it all. I accept better if I know why...at least to my own wierd explanation which fits. I guess I've always been a pain in wanting to know why...Perhaps my reduction in the use of busedonide has become a part of my current problem?
No, I think it's a good idea. Just don't do it too suddenly..what you haven't done already that is.
taper.. (see above) and use the fish oil/amino acids/high dose vitamins for support like you've been doing or very low cortisol doses.
(Phsyiological doses are up to 20mg usually that folks may start on (some need 30mg, usually with pituiaty damage)..I used 3mg compounded with thyroid meds after I cut down for a month or so..and I can tell the difference with just that amount!I used pulmicort too. Do you have the dark brown and light brown..(different strengths) over there too?
>
> > Did you read that Dr Derry thread on the thyroid forum..BTW if you do ever read it, click on "advanced view" at bottom of page to view 20 messages in one go
Doesn't matter. It was only for your interest...I'm still suffering from real bad B12 reaction, and I don't think the google is working on this forum in the past couple of days (BTW I've figured by "blue" they mean purple..I'm purple..especially soles of feet, hands, lips, eyes..butsoles of feet can go redder at times)
>
> Could you give me the link again, please? I've had some problems getting my new computer configured, and it would be nice if I could start anew.Hope you haven't lost too much. You can get people to recover stuff from HDDs if not too corrupted.
>
>
> > > Everything is linked to everything else. Messing with hormones directly is kind of scary for me.
> >
> > Should be too...that's why I think testing and a good specialist, even if out of area..is the preferable way to go
>
> I'll have more info soon. I paid for some special bloodwork.
>
> > > > Ok, all above is from my memory only
> > > > Here's a post on the forum
>
> > It was 10mg/g(1%) and there was 50g in the tube..so I started with about 1/10 of a tube..50mg as I doubt you absorb it all.
>
> I guess I can do that math. I did think so too...evens <g>
>
> > (in truth, I think the first day I probably used more than this..then cut back). You can judge what percentage of the tube you use..and there is no real reason to be that exact, as long as you taper off gradually.
>
> I'm going to wait a little bit, and see what the specialist says.Good idea
>
> > It actually works quite well as is not as "sudden" as hydrocortisone tablets..it seems to release slower in a smaller dose. I used it in the end to get a smoother dose....rubbed on my inner elbow and inner lower arm mainly...although sometimes outer lower arm and just above elbow.(actually this was where my muscles were really sore anyway the time) I have heard there is very good absorption in the neck area..but it may be too much except for an occasional needed sudden desperation -type boost.
>
> Funny, but I've never given much thought to topical steroids.....I've got a fair bit of them around the house. You can also buy 1% hydrocort creams.That's the stuff..hydrocortisone creams..but you have to get the thick clear ones..or at least the transparent ones ..others don't absorb well systemically (observation only again)
> > > Thanks. You've convinced me to pay for the testosterone panel too.
Sure hope you read up on it, found a good lab(it does make a difference), and high fat carbs loaded..like fries,potato gems, doughnuts etc beforehand for a couple of days, no fish oil,....oh and got it taken at the lowest time of day possible too.?
It makes a difference usually..and if trying to convince docs to treat is sometimes necessary...to get below range
(You have to know for monitoring also.)
With TSH, I always tell folks to go first thing in morning..highest time of day. the docs haven't figured this out as far as I can tell. Oestrogen is highest at noon. testosterone..no idea.
> > >
> > Just sounded like you'd given up in a previous post for some reason..and one has just got to just keep trying with all of this.
>
> Not given up.....frustrated, though. I know enough to want to get mucking around, but I need a medical collaborator. No such luck, as of yet.Guess that what I meant frustrated to the point of sounding like you were giving up
>
"You're special, ya know" <corrected <g>>
Jan
Disclaimer:-(not medically trained..all opinions only)
Posted by loolot on October 21, 2003, at 22:00:08
In reply to Re: cortisol, testosterone » Larry Hoover, posted by tealady on October 11, 2003, at 2:33:23
Posted by tealady on October 24, 2003, at 17:17:57
In reply to Re: cortisol, testosterone » Larry Hoover, posted by tealady on October 19, 2003, at 6:03:14
If I offended you in any way by this post or any other I am sorry. I have always taking to joking and making light of things as a coping mechanism when I am not coping due to being upset, scared, really confused etc. This may have come across in my posts of late. I find it is the only way I can cope. It was NOT meant to be reflected onto anything I said. I'm sorry if it came across in any other way.
I did not mean the context to be anything other than a description of what my understanding was based on my very small experience and I did go looking for some studies to hopefully back upsome of my interpretations. in case it helped
> > >
> > > Well the AM test can tell a bit. The urine test is usually only useful for cushings
> > > If you were diagnosed with chronic fatigue, did they do a morning cortisol?
> >
> > Yes. I was "within normal range".
>
> So informative! The "rule of thumb" (hehe)
I meant this jokingly, it was supposed to indicate I had read your thread and liked it.
The informative bit is a reflection on the difference just about every one on this board has to test results to what I was used to on other boards when considering hormones.
I know you fully realise that "normal" is too broad in most cases.... it was meant jokinglyEverything I have ever written to anyone here was intended to be genuine, concerned, and truthful to be best of my abilty. Sorry if my posts did not come over that way.
which seemed to work for most was if over 15 (morning basal cortisol) (US) ..multiply by 28 (27.59) for our units...meant you were OK to start thyroid meds probably.
> http://www.unc.edu/~rowlett/units/scales/clinical_data.html
> http://www.sydpath.stvincents.com.au/other/Conversions/ConversionMasterF3Mid.htm
>
Only posted these as you mentioned you had lost some links with your new computer. Only trying to be helpful.Below just stating mine and others observations, and tried to then find some studies to back it up. Some docs I knw use 12-15(US) as a guideline for minimum levels to start thyropid meds. It is on the synthroid (etc) prescription inserts to make sure of adrenal function before beginning thyroid meds.
I tried to relate this as answer as what may have been happening if one's metabolism is suddenly kickstarted by a really good diet/supp program as you have undertaken as it may create a similar kickstart that thyroid meds do.,..causing an additonal stress on adrenals, if too lowish. I was only trying to help answer the "something is still wrong but can't put my figer on it" statement (from memory)
> Personally I felt it should be 17 to be sure, 15 was OK and under 12 was iffy..usually indicating need of adrenal support before and while start thyroid meds.
> My non medically educated Opinion ONly formed from is a couple of years observations.
>
> I've just gone looking and found this study (seeing as you like studies) (I think the "normal " ranges in the US are roughly 6-22 or 6-25 from memory
>
> Evaluation of the integrity of the hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal axis by insulin hypoglycemia test.
>
> Erturk E, Jaffe CA, Barkan AL.
>
> Department of Internal Medicine, University of Michigan Medical Center, Ann Arbor 48109, USA.
>
> We retrospectively reviewed dynamic ACTH and cortisol responses to insulin hypoglycemia in 193 subjects with suspected ACTH deficiency to ascertain the predictive values of various diagnostic criteria. Based on the achievement of a peak cortisol level of 18 micrograms/dL or above, 133 subjects were classified as having an intact hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal (HPA) axis, and 60 subjects were determined to have ACTH deficiency. Baseline and peak cortisol concentrations were strongly correlated (r = 0.63; P < 0.0001). Peak cortisol increased in parallel to ACTH increments, but plateaued at approximately 22 micrograms/dL at peak ACTH levels above approximately 75 pg/mL (r = 0.61; P < 0.0001). BASAL CORTISOL VALUES ABOVE 17 micrograms/dL or below 4 micrograms/dL were highly predictive of an intact or impaired HPA axis, respectively, but intermediate values had only limited sensitivity and specificity. The criteria of HPA axis integrity, defined as an increment in plasma cortisol of more than 7 micrograms/dL above the baseline or as a doubling of the baseline cortisol value, were associated with high false positive and false negative rates. We conclude that 1) the baseline morning serum cortisol concentration has very limited predictive power in differentiating between normal and impaired HPA function; 2) the use of criteria based on incremental changes in serum cortisol from baseline leads to unacceptably high false positive and false negative rates; and 3) insulin hypoglycemia is still the best indicator of the integrity of the response of the HPA axis to stress.
>
> PMID: 9661607 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
> (it's got a free full text..but I haven't read it)
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=9661607&dopt=Abstract
> Note..it also said 17 was a safe level for predicting normal adrenal function....love it when studies agree with observations
>
> Now WHY am I going on about basal adrenal levels needed before commencing thyroid meds....because when you start thyroid meds it really hits your adrenals hard as probably when your metabolism kicks in your adrenals are called to work harder then they are used to, and without these levels one goes into some degree of a kinda adrenal crisis..one crashes and one does not tolerate the thyroid meds..can get racing heart beats/or irregular racing and pounding etc, tendonitis, tight muscles, aches and pains all over, just crash in a heap, extreme fatigue, difficulty breathing... you have a great choice of symptoms
>
> So how does this relate to you? I suspect that improving nutrition and taking phenylalanine etc would have a similar though lesser effect as commencing thyroid meds..so any adrenals which aren't functioning optimally will be put under a bit of strain...not as much as commencing thyroid meds..but the same kinda thing
>
>
>
> > I can't make an appointment first. Our system will not permit that approach. Only with a referral can you make an appointment.
>
> Well you ain't supposed to here either! I just give them a referring doc's name then look for the referral. I was forced into this after wasting at least 10 years of my life not being aggressive enough and just accepting some more AntiD's etc. I think I learnt to be more aggressive and to voice my symptoms etc. from the forums on the net.
> >
> >
> > > It just seems to work better this way, otherwise I can't get the referrals. You're right emergency rooms would not answer.
> >
> > They're the only other doctors I have a right to see, sans referral.
>
> me too
>
> > >
> > > Lar, that's a lovely definition of intuition..
> > Glad you liked it.
> <grin>
>
> >
> > >> hmm..one would expect that to increase your cortisol level as it's known to have systemic effects, as you say. Do you take all the time, or only occasionally?
> >
> > I used to take it all the time, but recently, I've not felt the need.
>
> That's good sign that fish oil is working, huh.(and the good nutrition, vits, amino acids etc)
>
> Now, rather than increase cortisol, would it not have a suppressing action?
> No. well not exactly.
> Inhalation corticosteroids are cortisone-like medicines so if you cut back too fast it's similar to cutting back cortisol too fast.
> I had come across some studies earlier this year on this.
> Just went looking again
> Here goes
> "RESULTS: A decreased adrenal reserve was observed 1 month after withdrawal of GCs in 50% of the chronically treated patients. Adrenal cortex function returned to normal in 55% of patients within 6 months, in 24% within 12 months, and in 14% within 15 months of discontinuation of systemic GCs administration. A significant positive correlation between the time taken for return to normal adrenal cortex function and duration of the disease and of GCs therapy was found. "
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=12713606&dopt=Abstract
> Adrenal cortex function in asthmatic patients following the discontinuation of chronic therapy with systemic glucocorticosteroids.
> Also , it is usually found that those on long term corticosteroids for asthma may develop "cushingoid" features..aka weight gain..which they lose on discontinuation ...perhaps a part reason for some weight loss?
>
> When I said "No,not exactly"..there is an effect with cortisol (as with thyroid meds) that continuous long tem administration, especially if too high, may shut down the adrenal production also.
> http://www.mja.com.au/public/issues/178_05_030303/mac10571_fm.html#i1082551
> Note the cushingoid appearance in the PAST..when it goes past this stage , you can get adrenal suppression (similar to chronic stress for years)
>
> "Although he had been noted to have a cushingoid appearance in the past, he was normal on physical examination, his height and weight were on the 3rd percentile, and his growth velocity was normal. He was found to be hypoglycaemic and hyponatraemic, with a low serum cortisol level "
>
> "Ongoing treatment involved giving regular hydrocortisone while reducing the dose of ICS, with no deterioration of asthma control. Four months after his presentation he was taking 500 μg fluticasone daily and being weaned off hydrocortisone"
> OR another case "Treatment and clinical course: Therapy with replacement hydrocortisone was begun while the ICS dose was gradually decreased to two puffs of Seretide 50/25 twice daily (giving 200 μg fluticasone daily); hydrocortisone therapy was continued for four months and is now taken as stress cover for intercurrent illness"
>
> So here they give hydrocortisone to build adrenal levels while reducing the dose of asthma meds
>
> Also look at this
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=2548097&dopt=Abstract
> This is what I think happened to me ..for many years since a child..to cause the thirst.
> I'm not AS thirsty anymore. Hydrocortisone has mild mineralocorticord properties too..and my blood tests confirm this. (PS. This answers the question you posed to me about thirst and diabetes way back, no I don't have sugar diabetes,..but I suspected I might have had this kind..never could get tested though, so just assumed it)
> "Hydrocortisone has some mineralocorticoid action, and its use as sole replacement therapy was sufficient to restore electrolyte balance in these instances"
> Larrian told me I must have something up with vasopressin and angiotensin when I was discussing PMS migraines..so I've been trying to link it all. I accept better if I know why...at least to my own wierd explanation which fits. I guess I've always been a pain in wanting to know why...
>
> Perhaps my reduction in the use of busedonide has become a part of my current problem?
>
> No, I think it's a good idea. Just don't do it too suddenly..what you haven't done already that is.
> taper.. (see above) and use the fish oil/amino acids/high dose vitamins for support like you've been doing or very low cortisol doses.
> (Phsyiological doses are up to 20mg usually that folks may start on (some need 30mg, usually with pituiaty damage)..I used 3mg compounded with thyroid meds after I cut down for a month or so..and I can tell the difference with just that amount!
>
> I used pulmicort too. Do you have the dark brown and light brown..(different strengths) over there too?
>
>
>
> >
> > > Did you read that Dr Derry thread on the thyroid forum..BTW if you do ever read it, click on "advanced view" at bottom of page to view 20 messages in one go
> Doesn't matter. It was only for your interest...I'm still suffering from real bad B12 reaction, and I don't think the google is working on this forum in the past couple of days (BTW I've figured by "blue" they mean purple..I'm purple..especially soles of feet, hands, lips, eyes..butsoles of feet can go redder at times)
> >
> > Could you give me the link again, please? I've had some problems getting my new computer configured, and it would be nice if I could start anew.
>
> Hope you haven't lost too much. You can get people to recover stuff from HDDs if not too corrupted.
> >
> >
> > > > Everything is linked to everything else. Messing with hormones directly is kind of scary for me.
> > >
> > > Should be too...that's why I think testing and a good specialist, even if out of area..is the preferable way to go
> >
> > I'll have more info soon. I paid for some special bloodwork.
> >
> > > > > Ok, all above is from my memory only
> > > > > Here's a post on the forum
> >
> > > It was 10mg/g(1%) and there was 50g in the tube..so I started with about 1/10 of a tube..50mg as I doubt you absorb it all.
> >
> > I guess I can do that math. I did think so too...evens <g>merely a referral to when I also was down and couldn't convert the ppm in the fluoride..I should have known that
> >
> > > (in truth, I think the first day I probably used more than this..then cut back). You can judge what percentage of the tube you use..and there is no real reason to be that exact, as long as you taper off gradually.
> >
> > I'm going to wait a little bit, and see what the specialist says.
>
> Good idea
> >
> > > It actually works quite well as is not as "sudden" as hydrocortisone tablets..it seems to release slower in a smaller dose. I used it in the end to get a smoother dose....rubbed on my inner elbow and inner lower arm mainly...although sometimes outer lower arm and just above elbow.(actually this was where my muscles were really sore anyway the time) I have heard there is very good absorption in the neck area..but it may be too much except for an occasional needed sudden desperation -type boost.
> >
> > Funny, but I've never given much thought to topical steroids.....I've got a fair bit of them around the house. You can also buy 1% hydrocort creams.
>
> That's the stuff..hydrocortisone creams..but you have to get the thick clear ones..or at least the transparent ones ..others don't absorb well systemically (observation only again)
>
> > > > Thanks. You've convinced me to pay for the testosterone panel too.
>
> Sure hope you read up on it, found a good lab(it does make a difference), and high fat carbs loaded..like fries,potato gems, doughnuts etc beforehand for a couple of days, no fish oil,....oh and got it taken at the lowest time of day possible too.?
> It makes a difference usually..and if trying to convince docs to treat is sometimes necessary...to get below range
> (You have to know for monitoring also.)
> With TSH, I always tell folks to go first thing in morning..highest time of day. the docs haven't figured this out as far as I can tell. Oestrogen is highest at noon. testosterone..no idea.
>
>
> > > >
> > > Just sounded like you'd given up in a previous post for some reason..and one has just got to just keep trying with all of this.
> >
> > Not given up.....frustrated, though. I know enough to want to get mucking around, but I need a medical collaborator. No such luck, as of yet.
>
> Guess that what I meant frustrated to the point of sounding like you were giving up
> >
> "You're special, ya know" <corrected <g>>well I felt embarrassed about the first time when I reread the post it glared out at me
> Jan
> Disclaimer:-(not medically trained..all opinions only)I repeat Everything I have ever written to anyone was intended to be genuine, concerned, and truthful to be best of my abilty. Sorry if my posts did not come over that way. I guess my humour is really poor.
I have been not coping due to some reactions that Lar was helping me with and I am still not well, and still must be thick as I still don't understand.
I have felt upset by many of innuendoes, small comments, on this board and felt unable to cope with posting mostly except for factual statements or a few very long posts on topics I was asked my opinion on. (oh and one on T3 where I was concerned)With people also being sarcastic by being overnice (as that is still considered civil), it was difficult to interpret intent being words., and difficult to question their intent.
I did not realise that my joking and trying to feel lighthearted would be misinterpreted, Sorry if it came over all wrong to Lar or anyone else that read any of my posts.
I have also posted as tealady on a thyroid forum (or a no.of linked ones) and I have given urls to threads I have posted in in other posts, so if anyone wants confirmation of what I am like they are welcome to read any of my posts there. Only stated as confirmation that I meant to be genuine and was looking for help.
I have learnt a lot from many posters here but especially from Lar who really also supported me me over my dental anesthetic reactions and the nitrate reactions as well as explained what was happening to me. I owe Lar a great debt which I don't take lightly.
I never expected B12 to be so severe this time, if that IS what it is. It seems perhaps the anesthetic reaction magnified something which has not yet reset.
If anyone is wondering the link is methaemoglobulin ..in my other posts
I tried a couple of days ago NADH. It seemed to make my depression worse initially..but I was more alert. Does anyone else experience this when they first started?Jan
PS. If it brings Lar back, I'll go.
Posted by Larry Hoover on October 25, 2003, at 6:47:45
In reply to to Lar .,.. larry hoover and all, posted by tealady on October 24, 2003, at 17:17:57
> If I offended you in any way by this post or any other I am sorry.
> PS. If it brings Lar back, I'll go.
I've been trying to email you through the thyroid forum, but I guess you haven't got the messages.
Please accept my humble and heartfelt apology for leaving you hanging, on this thread. My intuition told me you were waiting, and worrying about the wait, yet I did nothing. For that, I'm deeply sorry.
I just couldn't bring myself to talk about this subject right now. Emotionally, I'm on hold. I'm not the slightest bit closer to finding out what's wrong. Looks like they may have lost my bloodwork. It'll be months before I see the specialist. I've had to push myself away from the topic altogether.
There's not a thing you've said that's offended me. Quite the contrary. You have been an invaluable support for me, you have given some great ideas, and opened new avenues of inquiry.
I'm grateful for your caring.
Forgive me for my insensitivity.
Hugs,
Lar.
Posted by tealady on October 26, 2003, at 2:09:16
In reply to Jan, I'm sorry. » tealady, posted by Larry Hoover on October 25, 2003, at 6:47:45
> > If I offended you in any way by this post or any other I am sorry.
>
> > PS. If it brings Lar back, I'll go.OK, I'm accustomed to keeping my word, so I will go soon.
It has been a learning experience here for me, and I hope for others too.>
> I've been trying to email you through the thyroid forum, but I guess you haven't got the messages.Well it is tempermental about sending emails..but I've got about 20 other messges every day since then thru it...or thru posts, you can post via email or onto forum too
Did you see my picture? I never knew why exactly I was drawn to it and the quote until recently, just knew I was... I selected them a couple of years ago.I would really appreciate it if you could please find my 2 emails to you this week and return a copy to me ....to return the email just press "reply" ..?
Why use the about forum email system when you have my main address?I'm not expecting you to comment on anything(although you know we all value any helpful advise from you).
I had meant to keep a copy for myself to review in "less stressed out?" times, but in my state they got accidentally deleted.. I even retrieved them from the deleted emails a few time, sigh..but they weren't there later on.
>
> Please accept my humble and heartfelt apology for leaving you hanging, on this thread. My intuition told me you were waiting, and worrying about the wait, yet I did nothing. For that, I'm deeply sorry.
>
Well I guess it I was at the bottom depression wise and "beyond scared" anxiety wise at the time of my email to you, but it was mostly chemically caused, then situational, then, well support in any form always helps...even just try taking this and go and lie down?
> I just couldn't bring myself to talk about this subject right now. Emotionally, I'm on hold.
That's fine. I changed my mind again about intuition and religion etc<grin>.
I think I said in my second email, I'd given up and decided it was all some auto suggestion, self-hypnotic-suggestion thingy.When I was doing Psych1 at Uni I was a guinea pig for some experiments on this stuff
..about making oneself hear music in your head (I could, and so could most)..thought that might have been happening to some others on the forum here lately.
(ya have to be a guinea pig in a no of experiments and it was either this is letting some students practise hypnosis on you...forgetIT!)Anyway, I was lucky a guy from England from another forum (who I also know nothing about except he's been researching and caring for his wife whom he's close to and helps us out with stuff he's learnt) somehow must have sensed something and emailed me a couple of times just after I emailed you, and the pain clinic phoned me twice the next day and day after(unheard of for a public hospital) just to check on how I was going?...so I figure there has to something out there after all...so back to believing in "intuition" or something. Also considering myself lucky.
At the low point all week up to that night... all I'd got was a signal jamming or void..so I'd decided nothing existed, after all..and was questioning my sanity as I was sure I'd felt something before from somewhere, sigh. It didn't help.
> I'm not the slightest bit closer to finding out what's wrong. Looks like they may have lost my bloodwork. It'll be months before I see the specialist. I've had to push myself away from the topic altogether.
Guess I knew that anyway..intuition ?
But then after I always get confirmation after from your posts to others anyway. Someone else posted on being able to tell as well about Ame? was it being depressed etc from posting styles...yours are telling as well...perhaps everyone's are unless we keep a "poker posting" face.Are mine?
When I get really upset, scared, I act by laughing, joking, clowning around..it's my own personal "coping mechanism". The first time I remember using it was when I was 12 in a science experiment where I managed to CO poison my lungs I guess. It was leaking and I couldn't tell as I was stuffed up with a cold..then the dumb teacher suggested I breathe deeper to smell it! Kept coughing and couldn't breathe properly for a couple of weeks. Noone took me to a doc as all I did was keep laughing and joking about it.
Next time was at 15, when my first boyfriend was left..I was just joking and laughing so much..my friends thought I was stange to be so estatically happy about it all and I remember getting some wierd uncomprehending stares...but I couldn't stop.
So if my posts showed any laughing etc in the past (I had the b12 needle on Thursday night 16th.) so from then on.....it's not me laughing at anyone.
Bet my wit has been gone too.
> There's not a thing you've said that's offended me. Quite the contrary. You have been an invaluable support for me, you have given some great ideas, and opened new avenues of inquiry.
>
> I'm grateful for your caring.thanks, thought I must have stepped out of line?
>
> Forgive me for my insensitivity.
>
Lar, my brain/head has BEGUN clearing today still a bit thick though<g>..yesterday and day before the purpleness started retreating from soles of feet..now bright red and electrified tingling intensified..painful to walk<g>I'm still very confused over a couple of posts over in admin. If you prefer I'll post in admin on it, but I would prefer discussing this via email/or ICQ whatever..perhaps I'm misunderstanding something, but it needs to be cleared up for my reputation if nothing else. I understand you object to emails? Last week I found them almost a lifesaver.
Off that topic, It's become blindingly obvious to me that I need to form some kinda "emergency depression kit" so when I can't think for myself, I know what to take etc.
Anyone got any ideas? Is there any drugs/supps that may provide an almost instant uplift, like within a hour or so, in an emergency? If my body is going to keep reacting like this, I need some plan.
> Hugs, <needed, thanx>
L8r, Jan
(would you believe it just took me 10 hours to write this, sigh)PS. Would like to let everyone reading this know, that I did not threathen suicide or even have suicidal thoughts..just reached the bottom, to the best of my memory anyway
Posted by Larry Hoover on October 26, 2003, at 4:55:01
In reply to Recovering » Larry Hoover, posted by tealady on October 26, 2003, at 2:09:16