![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 155 to 179 of 179. Go back in thread:
Posted by 10derheart on May 16, 2013, at 23:51:17
In reply to Re: druggin' my kid » 10derheart, posted by Phillipa on May 16, 2013, at 20:31:44
Posted by Dinah on May 17, 2013, at 1:35:39
In reply to druggin' my kid » Dinah, posted by 10derheart on May 16, 2013, at 19:35:35
I think that's a great attitude, 10der. I tend to beat myself up over my choices. Your way sounds healthier.
It's not *just* that portion of the wording though. When accompanied by statements that "drugging your children" "could" lead to mass murders, etc., it's a bit hard for me to interpret it in any sort of positive way.
Posted by 10derheart on May 17, 2013, at 2:18:02
In reply to Re: druggin' my kid » 10derheart, posted by Dinah on May 17, 2013, at 1:35:39
I know and agree. I'm still working on those bits of it...more challenging.
Maybe I'll come up with something to help neutralize, but some things....
I think I just skip right over everything right after "could lead to..." since I've seen it literally dozens of times.
Posted by Dinah on May 17, 2013, at 2:28:04
In reply to Re: druggin' my kid » Dinah, posted by 10derheart on May 17, 2013, at 2:18:02
Well, *we* can. But I doubt it's reasonable to expect newcomers to dismiss it as repetitive. It's not repetitive to them.
It's not even applicable to me. But I strongly identify with the potential readers who are worried and confused parents. I feel rather like I feel about people who came to Psychology and made highly.... hmmmmm..... "negative" statements about therapy and therapists.
Posted by gardenergirl on May 17, 2013, at 22:27:57
In reply to Re: Dropped the mic??? » gardenergirl, posted by 10derheart on May 16, 2013, at 23:48:46
Posted by Willful on May 18, 2013, at 13:04:42
In reply to Re: druggin' my kid » 10derheart, posted by Dinah on May 17, 2013, at 2:28:04
I'm not taking up for fear-mongering in any form or by anyone-- but I do wonder if we've understood how fears and hopes work here.
Maybe if we remembered our own choice to post here-- and the reasons why we did become long-term posters-- we can better understand what Lou's impact-- or our own-- is. Perhaps that would give us a different insight into our own process-- rather than if we imagine what new posters might feel-- from our present points of view.~~~
I remember coming here before I posted-- years and years ago-- and being frightened by, for example, individuals' expressions of fear-- to which I resonated-- Yet none of us would consider anything these individuals have written to be uncivil. They were expressing their own anxieties-- quite rightfully-- and asking for help in coping with them. No one would ever want to deny them that right of expression and seeking for help--There are stories by many here of fears, or bad reactions to drugs, or weight gain-- failure of repeated trials of ADs to work--nightmarish interactions with insensitive pdocs, etc--that might actually be more frightening to new posters than all the extreme rhetoric in the world-- especially when it's pointed out by other posters.
And I think each new poster comes here with a history of fears and hopes, looking for confirmation-- or disproofs-- -- in the absence of any guarantees. For each of us, starting a new drug is an difficult venture, spurred by bad experiences of some sort-- and right now, given the state of medical science-- it's going to be a rather uncertain one. I think at best we can offer hope, and support through the uncertainty, try to be there when the person experiences whatever effects come-- and try to slightly make it easier to come to a good (for that person) process.
My bet is that most new posters have read many posts here before they actually post. And from what I've seen, it's possible that many come here not with the intention of becoming permanent posters-- but for limited information or the answers to certain questions.
If so-- why? how does the site as a whole feel as they read it over and make a preliminary connection to how they might want to interact here?I wish we knew more-- but really we're groping in the dark a bit to come to a better place as a community. But we should look more closely before we blame Lou for driving people away-- despite our own immediate, reflexive belief that he might-- because we may be ignoring and somewhat singling him out-- for a process in which he is certainly an important actor-- but which is not really controlled by him.
Posted by gardenergirl on May 18, 2013, at 13:28:49
In reply to Re: druggin' my kid, posted by Willful on May 18, 2013, at 13:04:42
There's a difference, though, between expressing one's own fears about our own treatment choices or lack thereof and projecting our fear onto others' potential choices.
Posted by Dr. Bob on May 19, 2013, at 1:55:49
In reply to Re: druggin' my kid, posted by Willful on May 18, 2013, at 13:04:42
> I remember coming here before I posted-- years and years ago-- and being frightened by, for example, individuals' expressions of fear-- to which I resonated
>
> I think at best we can offer hope, and support through the uncertainty, try to be there when the person experiences whatever effects come-- and try to slightly make it easier to come to a good (for that person) process.I like the idea of reflecting on one's own experiences of fear and hope. Me, I fear people will stop coming to Babble, which is a fear some posters have expressed. At the same time, Babble has been resilient, (some) new people are coming, (some) old people are staying, I'm still here, and I think we're all learning, so I have hope that Babble will make it.
Bob
Posted by SLS on May 19, 2013, at 7:50:12
In reply to Re: fear and hope, posted by Dr. Bob on May 19, 2013, at 1:55:49
> I'm still here, and I think we're all learning, so I have hope that Babble will make it.
Thank you.
- Scott
Posted by Lou Pilder on May 19, 2013, at 9:36:18
In reply to Re: feeling empowered, posted by Dr. Bob on May 9, 2013, at 23:13:56
> > Lou may express what some posters fear. What would reassure those posters who feel afraid?
> >
> > A reassuring statement could be developed and reused, for example:
> >
> > > Almost any drug will cause death if not managed properly. It is true that drugs in general can cause death. Psychiatric drugs are not unique in this regard.
> > >
> > > http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16294364
>
> And:
>
> > I don't [have doubts about whether medication saves lives]. I was hospitalized five times in ten years with manic or suicidal episodes until I commited to taking lithium. I was hospitalized once in the subsequent thirty years and that when I watched my mother die. Lithium saved my life.
>
> > I totally agree that the right medications save lives - and also make lives worth living. And I think any risk to patients can be offset with a decent psychiatrist keeping an eye on possible bad reactions.
>
> And I thought these were nice (civil) examples of balancing one point of view with another:
>
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20130109/msgs/1043379.html
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20130109/msgs/1043387.html
>
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20130109/msgs/1043381.html
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20130109/msgs/1043388.html
>
> Other ways to reassure posters might include a list of Frequently Felt Worries, analogous to a FAQ, and highlighting posts with success stories or other reasons to feel hopeful.
>
> Note that the focus here is other posters (and lurkers), not Lou. Trying to change Lou (like trying to change me) can lead to frustration.
>
> --
>
> > Perhaps you can see how, to people struggling to find a way out of hopelessness, despair, flatness, intense anxiety or agitation, that it could be incredibly distressing to see extreme negativity over and over and over again.
> >
> > Dinah
>
> As individuals may struggle with feelings of hopelessness, groups may struggle with individuals who express hopelessness. Blocking expressions of hopelessness may seem to solve the problem for groups, but how can individuals block feelings of hopelessness?
>
> Does anybody here have any tips on how to deal with feelings of hopelessness? Can those approaches be applied here?
>
> --
>
> > Frustration, it's frustration that resonates with me Bob, not powerlessness. ... Lou is undoubtedly intelligent and clever. We know that because of his frustrating comunication style when there's evidence that he can communicate perfectly normally. And how in God's name does he get away with using veiled accusations ... ? It's infuriating and manipulative and uncivil. ... I'm tired of being accused of being an anti-semite ... F*ck you Lou, I'm frustrated.
> >
> > Toph
>
> OK, frustration, not powerlessness. "I'm frustrated" is of course a more civil way of expressing frustration than "f*ck you".
>
> I'm not saying Lou isn't intelligent and clever, but inconsistent doesn't necessarily mean intentional.
>
> Something that's unacceptable when unveiled can be acceptable when veiled.
>
> Posts can be infuriating without being uncivil.
>
> It sounds like you felt infuriated because you felt accused. Would you feel infuriated if you were accused of being from Mars?
>
> --
>
> > > 3. In a way, it may be good for this community to see that posts by you don't have to be responded to.
> >
> > True or False
> > A. If it may be good, then it also may be bad for this community to see posts by you, Lou, don't have to be responded to
>
> True
>
> > C. By leaving your requests to me outstanding, Lou, then readers could think that the ones that contain statements that you think could arouse anti-Semitic feelings could be thought by some to be supportive and will be god for this community as a whole
> > D. By leaving your requests outstanding, Lou, others could break my own rules here.
> > F. By leaving your requests outstanding, Lou, then Jews and Islamic people and others could have their faiths insulted and that will be good for this community as a whole.
> > G. By leaving your requests outstanding, Lou, that could encourage others to have hatred toward the Jews, and that will be good for this community as a whole.
> > H. By leaving all of the posts outstanding in this link, Lou, I can make it good for this community to think that (redacted by respondent)
> >
> > Lou Pilder
>
> I wonder if you feel frustrated by me. If so, you and Toph may have something in common.
>
> And I may have something in common with medication. Taking medication could potentially lead to a life-ruining condition, and in an extreme case, death. And my not responding to requests could potentially lead to being hated, which could also be a life-ruining condition, and in an extreme case, death.
>
> --
>
> > Still, it takes repeated investments of time and energy to reassure other posters. I can see how that could get old. It takes repeated investments of time and energy to moderate Babble.
>
> Let's make a deal. If I invest time and energy to moderate Babble, will you all invest time and energy to reassure other posters?
>
> BobMr Hsiung,
It is written here by Mr. Hsiung,
[...my not responding to requests could potentially lead to being hated, which could also be a life-ruining condition, and in an extreme case, death...].
I am unsure as to what your drafting here with your grammatical structure of the statement and if you could post answers here to the following, then I could know what you are wanting readers to think and I could then respond to you.
You did write before the statement here,[...I wonder if you feel frustrated by me...]
Now the post that you are responding to here follows a question from me to you. But still, I would like clarification by the following.
True or false
A. By you not responding to requests, the requestor could be hated
B. By not responding to requests, the one that does not respond could be hated
C. Both could be hated
Complete
D. The life-ruining condition as an example, could be__________________________________
E.The death that could result could be:____________________
F. The people that have hate infused in them, if there are such, by that you do not respond to requests are those that:__________________
G. If you think that I feel frustrated by that there are years of outstanding requests/notifications from me to you, would that be what you mean by "supportive" since you state that support takes precedence here?
H. If so, and you do what in your thinking will be good for this community as a whole, what good could result from the fact that there are years of outstanding requests/notifications from me here?
Here are some posts that I would like readers to read in relation to this.
Lou Pilder
To see these posts go to the search box at the bottom of the page and type in:
[admin,1042409]
and,
[admin,1034151]
Posted by Dinah on May 19, 2013, at 12:14:33
In reply to Re: fear and hope, posted by Dr. Bob on May 19, 2013, at 1:55:49
That'll do, Dr. Bob. That'll do.
Posted by Dr. Bob on May 21, 2013, at 2:56:35
In reply to Lou's reply- owdurdknez » Dr. Bob, posted by Lou Pilder on May 19, 2013, at 9:36:18
> > my not responding to requests could potentially lead to being hated, which could also be a life-ruining condition, and in an extreme case, death.
> A. By you not responding to requests, the requestor could be hated
> B. By not responding to requests, the one that does not respond could be hated
> C. Both could be hatedI was thinking you might have been thinking that if people hated you, and I didn't respond to your requests to intervene, then more people might hate you. And then yes, you might hate me.
Hmm, you might be hated by other posters, and I might be hated by you. You and I might have something in common.
> D. The life-ruining condition as an example, could be__________________________________
> E.The death that could result could be:____________________Being hated could be a life-ruining condition. In extreme cases, hate has led to murder.
> G. If you think that I feel frustrated by that there are years of outstanding requests/notifications from me to you, would that be what you mean by "supportive" since you state that support takes precedence here?
No
> H. If so, and you do what in your thinking will be good for this community as a whole, what good could result from the fact that there are years of outstanding requests/notifications from me here?
In a way, it may be good for this community to see that posts by you don't have to be responded to.
Bob
Posted by Lou Pilder on May 25, 2013, at 11:10:45
In reply to Re: being hated, posted by Dr. Bob on May 21, 2013, at 2:56:35
> > > my not responding to requests could potentially lead to being hated, which could also be a life-ruining condition, and in an extreme case, death.
>
> > A. By you not responding to requests, the requestor could be hated
> > B. By not responding to requests, the one that does not respond could be hated
> > C. Both could be hated
>
> I was thinking you might have been thinking that if people hated you, and I didn't respond to your requests to intervene, then more people might hate you. And then yes, you might hate me.
>
> Hmm, you might be hated by other posters, and I might be hated by you. You and I might have something in common.
>
> > D. The life-ruining condition as an example, could be__________________________________
> > E.The death that could result could be:____________________
>
> Being hated could be a life-ruining condition. In extreme cases, hate has led to murder.
>
> > G. If you think that I feel frustrated by that there are years of outstanding requests/notifications from me to you, would that be what you mean by "supportive" since you state that support takes precedence here?
>
> No
>
> > H. If so, and you do what in your thinking will be good for this community as a whole, what good could result from the fact that there are years of outstanding requests/notifications from me here?
>
> In a way, it may be good for this community to see that posts by you don't have to be responded to.
>
> BobMr Hsiung,
You wrote,[...you might hate me...I might be hated by you...in a way it might be good for this community to see that posts by you do not have to be responded to...].
Be advised that the God that I give service and worship to is a Sun and a Shield. The Sun gives me the healing rays and the Shield protects me from hate being infused into me by anyone. No one here or any place else can cause me to harbor hate, for my God is a shield from all the hate that could be thrown at me, be it here or anywhere else.
So take no thought that I might hate you. But seek the posts that arouse hatred, in particular but not limited to the Jews, for a lot of those could hate you for allowing those type of posts to stand that are insulting to Jews and others for they could not agree with you that you do what in your thinking will be good for this community as a whole, and those stones that are cast at the Jews here that you allow to stand, could be thrown back to you.
Lou Pilder
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20130109/msgs/1042501.html
Posted by 10derheart on May 25, 2013, at 11:42:07
In reply to Lou's reply-cststones » Dr. Bob, posted by Lou Pilder on May 25, 2013, at 11:10:45
Posted by Phillipa on May 25, 2013, at 20:28:30
In reply to Lou's reply-cststones » Dr. Bob, posted by Lou Pilder on May 25, 2013, at 11:10:45
Lou good post and point in my opinion Phillipa
Posted by 10derheart on May 25, 2013, at 20:48:52
In reply to Re: Lou's reply-cststones » Lou Pilder, posted by Phillipa on May 25, 2013, at 20:28:30
Lou made a few statements there.
Which one(s) made the point that is the good one?
Posted by Dinah on May 27, 2013, at 9:28:17
In reply to Re: being hated, posted by Dr. Bob on May 21, 2013, at 2:56:35
FWIW, I don't hate Lou. I sometimes am angry with Lou, but I don't hate him. Believing you have been divinely called to Babble to free people from medication drugs (if I understand Lou's position correctly) isn't something to hate someone for. Neither, really, is interpreting facts in light of that belief in divine calling.
Using words like "hate" may distract the emphasis from problematic behaviors - behaviors that are problematic not only to posters and not only in an administrative sense, but possibly problematic to the poster as well. I had always liked the fact that it was problematic behaviors that were addressed by Admin on Babble, not posters or feelings about posters.
I think the addressing of the most problematic behaviors might actually reduce anger and help in the sort of community building that would, IMO, be important to Babble. If you were open to it, perhaps the community could come together to create useful but fair guidelines to increase rather than decrease inclusiveness, while decreasing (current) problematic behaviors.
Posted by Dr. Bob on May 29, 2013, at 18:12:21
In reply to Lou's reply-cststones » Dr. Bob, posted by Lou Pilder on May 25, 2013, at 11:10:45
> the Shield protects me from hate being infused into me by anyone. No one here or any place else can cause me to harbor hate, for my God is a shield from all the hate that could be thrown at me, be it here or anywhere else.
> So take no thought that I might hate you.I'm glad you're safe from feeling hate. I'm kind of shielded, too. You and I have something in common.
But those not shielded may feel hate, including toward us. Does your God shield you from the hate of others, too?
Bob
Posted by Lou Pilder on May 30, 2013, at 21:44:49
In reply to Re: being hated, posted by Dr. Bob on May 29, 2013, at 18:12:21
> > the Shield protects me from hate being infused into me by anyone. No one here or any place else can cause me to harbor hate, for my God is a shield from all the hate that could be thrown at me, be it here or anywhere else.
> > So take no thought that I might hate you.
>
> I'm glad you're safe from feeling hate. I'm kind of shielded, too. You and I have something in common.
>
> But those not shielded may feel hate, including toward us. Does your God shield you from the hate of others, too?
>
> BobMr Hsiung,
You wrote,[...those not shielded may feel hate...does your God shield you from the hate of others too?...].
There are different shields revealed to me. One is The Shield of Faith. Those that have that shield can be shielded from the arrows from the devil. Those arrows are usually temptations to do evil which could include hate. There are other shields that your prohibitions to me prevent me to post about here.
It is part of my purpose here to supply how one could have the Shields so that they could have the defense to overcome.
Lou
Posted by Lou PIlder on June 5, 2013, at 7:28:31
In reply to Lou's reply- » Dr. Bob, posted by Lou Pilder on May 8, 2013, at 7:41:41
> > > > I wonder if seeing me as empowering Lou might be connected with feeling powerless to change how I behave.
> > >
> > > Of course it does. This is the crux of the behavioral dynamic that produces the frustration and sense of powerlessness many of us feel here.
> >
> > > Nothing will change.
> > >
> > > - Scott
> >
> > > I personally have given up completely on being able to make any sort of difference here.
> > >
> > > Dinah
> >
> > There are things I feel powerless to change, too. Does anybody here have any tips on how to deal with feelings of powerlessness?
> >
> > --
> >
> > > I don't like to repeatedly invest the time and energy to contest your same litany of disinformation, exaggerations, and overgeneralizations. Historically, others have contested your assertions without your engaging them in a dialogue.
> > >
> > > - Scott
> >
> > Lou may express what some posters fear. What would reassure those posters who feel afraid? If I were frightened of medication, I don't think blocking someone who expressed my fears would reassure me.
> >
> > A reassuring statement could be developed and reused, for example:
> >
> > > Almost any drug will cause death if not managed properly. It is true that drugs in general can cause death. Psychiatric drugs are not unique in this regard.
> > >
> > > http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16294364
> >
> > Still, it takes repeated investments of time and energy to reassure other posters. I can see how that could get old. It takes repeated investments of time and energy to moderate Babble.
> >
> > --
> >
> > > C. There are two standards here, Lou.
> > > F. It [may] be good for this community as a whole to leave your notifications outstanding, Lou
> > >
> > > Lou Pilder
> >
> > Lou,
> >
> > 1. I wonder if you feel powerless to change how I behave. If so, you and other posters may have something in common.
> >
> > 2. In a way, there are in fact different standards, because time to respond to notifications is limited:
> >
> > http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#help
> >
> > 3. In a way, it may be good for this community to see that posts by you don't have to be responded to.
> >
> > 4. I should be careful what I wish for, too, but I might address more of your concerns if someone else notified me of them. Does anybody else here share your concerns? The goal here is support. Do you feel supported here? Maybe by Scott?
> >
> > > I'm sorry that you feel hated.
> > >
> > > - Scott
> >
> > --
> >
> > > Be advised that it is well-known how hate groups are fostered in a community and the horrific damage to the members that the hate induces to those that are in those groups.
> > > First, psychologists have studied how hate is formed in a community to make a hate-group. It is not a mystery and you do not have to be a mastermind to foster a hate-group. For hate can be a mask that the hater wares to hide their insecurities. And then the hate elevates the hater above the ones that they are hating, (in their own minds that is). Then the hater solicits others to hate the target so that they can get what they think is validation from others to elevate (falsely) their self-worth and to prevent others from exposing them as having personal insecurities.
> > > The haters thinks that they will be empowered by being in a group which they believe becomes a shield to prevent accountability for their acts of hatred. Hate ties the group together with their common cause so that they can debase the object of their hate which they think will bolster their self-image.
> > > This becomes fashionable in a group where hate toward others is allowed to stand. The haters blame the victim of their hate to justify the hate. Their minds can be taken over by them falsely thinking that they will be doing good by destroying their target of hate. And then the target is not allowed to stand up to the bullies with hatred toward them.
> > >
> > > Lou
> >
> > I wouldn't disagree with the above, though I wouldn't overgeneralize, either. I wonder:
> >
> > 1. What leads one subgroup to become hated instead of others?
> >
> > 2. I could imagine some of those in the hated subgroup starting to hate those in the hating subgroup. Would the above dynamics then also start to apply also to them?
> >
> > 3. How might such a cycle be broken?
> >
> > Bob
>
> Mr. Hsiung,
> You wrote,
> [...in a way, it may be good for this community to see that posts by you don't have to be responded to...].
> I am unsure as to what you do or doo not want posters to be led to believe by what you wrote here. If you could post answers to the following, then I could respond accordingly.
> True or False
> A. If it may be good, then it also may be bad for this community to see posts by you, Lou, don't have to be responded to
> B. By me leaving your posts, Lou, that have requests to me outstanding , then I can control the content as to what I want others to consider to be supportive.
> C. By leaving your requests to me outstanding, Lou, then readers could think that the ones that contain statements that you think could arouse anti-Semitic feelings could be thought by some to be supportive and will be god for this community as a whole
> D. By leaving your requests outstanding, Lou, others could break my own rules here.
> E. By leaving your requests outstanding, Lou, I could have more time to attend to pictures on the top of the page.
> F. By leaving your requests outstanding, Lou, then Jews and Islamic people and others could have their faiths insulted and that will be good for this community as a whole.
> G. By leaving your requests outstanding, Lou, that could encourage others to have hatred toward the Jews, and that will be good for this community as a whole.
> H. By leaving all of the posts outstanding in this link, Lou, I can make it good for this community to think that (redacted by respondent)
> Lou Pilder
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20130109/msgs/1042501.htmlMr Hsiung, In regards to your reminder provision, the above. Now if you were to post answers to my requests here, then I could expose what I need to post about here that INHO could save lives, prevent life-ruining conditions and addictions, and have people have the opportunity to know what I think could lead those that want a way out of the horrible predicament that they post about here. And on top of that, Jews and others could have the fear of them being victims of violence perpetrated to them alleviated by the nature that I think that if your were to answer my questions here, that I could have the opportunity to post what INHO could expose how hatred toward the Jews could be eradicated by destroying any thinking that anti-Semitism is supportive. This all depends on knowing why in your thinking it might be good to see that you do not have to respond to my requests to you here.
Lou Pilder
Posted by Lou PIlder on June 7, 2013, at 17:01:19
In reply to Re: being hated, posted by Dr. Bob on May 21, 2013, at 2:56:35
> > > my not responding to requests could potentially lead to being hated, which could also be a life-ruining condition, and in an extreme case, death.
>
> > A. By you not responding to requests, the requestor could be hated
> > B. By not responding to requests, the one that does not respond could be hated
> > C. Both could be hated
>
> I was thinking you might have been thinking that if people hated you, and I didn't respond to your requests to intervene, then more people might hate you. And then yes, you might hate me.
>
> Hmm, you might be hated by other posters, and I might be hated by you. You and I might have something in common.
>
> > D. The life-ruining condition as an example, could be__________________________________
> > E.The death that could result could be:____________________
>
> Being hated could be a life-ruining condition. In extreme cases, hate has led to murder.
>
> > G. If you think that I feel frustrated by that there are years of outstanding requests/notifications from me to you, would that be what you mean by "supportive" since you state that support takes precedence here?
>
> No
>
> > H. If so, and you do what in your thinking will be good for this community as a whole, what good could result from the fact that there are years of outstanding requests/notifications from me here?
>
> In a way, it may be good for this community to see that posts by you don't have to be responded to.
>
> BobMr Hsiung,
You wrote,[...In a way, it may be good for this community to see that posts by you don't have to be responded to...].
I am unsure as to what you are wanting readers to believe here. If you could post answers to the following, then I could have the opportunity to respond accordingly.
A. What is what you want readers to think as to you using that it may be {good} here if they see my requests/notifications to you being outstanding?
B. Why may that be {good}?
C. If one match could start forest fire, and my requests are outstanding, would not the fire start?
D. If you say not, what rationale do you use, if any, to make that claim?
E. If there is a fire started by the nature of outstanding notifications/ requests from me to you, if that is considered by you to be good,why would that be good?
F. If members see the outstanding requests/notifications from me here, which subset of members, if you know, could think that is good to see my requests outstanding?
Lou Pilder
Posted by Lou Pilder on June 17, 2013, at 21:06:26
In reply to Re: the Prince of Death, posted by Dr. Bob on May 9, 2013, at 21:46:30
> > > So be it as it may be, let us look at the following post here by Mr Hsiung about me.
> > > http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20130109/msgs/1043225.html
> > >
> > > Lou
> >
> > Although not explicitly referring to you, it was an unfortunate choice of words.
> >
> > - Scott
>
> I was referring to depression, not to Lou. And "The Wizard of Babble" was referring to, of all things, feeling powerless (while being seen as powerful).
>
> Bob
Mr. Hsiung,
You wrote,[...I was referring to depression, not to Lou...].
I do not read it that way. I read it as it can be seen. And I know it when it can be seen and others can know it also. I can not see that The Prince of Death is anything but an epithet for me, as it is plainly visible because that is what the context is in Sukarno's post. I do not see how anyone could see what is not there. If you intended to mean what is not there, then could you not have posted that originally? If not, why not?
In Sukarno's post, we see:
Lou said
he sanctioned others
he can't be sanctioned because he is not accountable
The {he} is me, as can be seen. The Prince of Death can be seen as an epithet for me. I am the subject person as to what I had posted. What is posted is what can be sanctioned. People can be accountable.
Now you say that you take responsibility for what you post. Regardless of your later explanation, there was harm to me by the use of the Epithet toward me here. The {Prince of Death}oould be thought as a perversion of {The Prince of Peace} since I have posted using that in some of my posts.
Here is Sukarno's post
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20120228/msgs/1030301.html
Someone greater than me may see this as I see it, as it can be seen.
Posted by Lou Pilder on August 25, 2013, at 4:57:11
In reply to Problematic behaviors » Dr. Bob, posted by Dinah on May 27, 2013, at 9:28:17
> FWIW, I don't hate Lou. I sometimes am angry with Lou, but I don't hate him. Believing you have been divinely called to Babble to free people from medication drugs (if I understand Lou's position correctly) isn't something to hate someone for. Neither, really, is interpreting facts in light of that belief in divine calling.
>
> Using words like "hate" may distract the emphasis from problematic behaviors - behaviors that are problematic not only to posters and not only in an administrative sense, but possibly problematic to the poster as well. I had always liked the fact that it was problematic behaviors that were addressed by Admin on Babble, not posters or feelings about posters.
>
> I think the addressing of the most problematic behaviors might actually reduce anger and help in the sort of community building that would, IMO, be important to Babble. If you were open to it, perhaps the community could come together to create useful but fair guidelines to increase rather than decrease inclusiveness, while decreasing (current) problematic behaviors.D,
You wrote,[...using words like "hate" may distract the emphasis from problematic behaviors... addressing the most problematic behaviors...decreasing problematic behaviors...].
I could be thought to be the subject person here in your post.
What you have written about me could put me in a false light for the problematic behaviors are not directly specified. You did state that my behaviors could be thought to be, {...believing that I have been divinely called here to free people...]. It could be thought, IMO, that you are saying that the behavior is this, but that you do not hate me for it, but it is problematic.
What I write concerning what you have written here that could be thought to be my posts from the divinely called perspective, comes from a Jewish perspective as revealed to me. I do not think that the Jewish perspective as revealed to me that my posts concerning the divinely called aspect here is to be considered to be problematic, for IMO that could have the potential to stigmatize me and decrease the respect and regard and confidence in which I am held and induce hostile opinions and feelings about me. This is because there are in any group the potential to have those that are in a subset of the population to be {more-easily-persuaded}. What I see here as to what you have written about me could have the potential IMO to arouse anti-Semitic feelings, for different points of view are accepted here and I do not think that anyone's point of view, including mine from a Jewish point of view, (redacted b respondent), "problematic". And more than that, without a citation of a post from you to substantiate what you write about me, readers do not have my response to you and then lack my response to you so they can make their own determination as to what you write about me is true or not, nor do I have the opportunity to respond to any claim by you concerning as to what I write is "problematic" or not.
Lou
Posted by Lou Pilder on August 25, 2013, at 5:14:25
In reply to Re: Lou's reply-cststones » Lou Pilder, posted by Phillipa on May 25, 2013, at 20:28:30
> Lou good post and point in my opinion Phillipa
Friends,
Phillipa posted that the post of mine that she is responding to had at least a good point.
Here is the post that she responded to and I would like for readers to focus on my response in the post to Mr Hsiung before we go on here.
Lou
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20130109/msgs/1044219.html
Posted by Lou Pilder on September 22, 2013, at 10:42:26
In reply to Re: feeling powerless, posted by Dr. Bob on May 7, 2013, at 3:46:59
> > > I wonder if seeing me as empowering Lou might be connected with feeling powerless to change how I behave.
> >
> > Of course it does. This is the crux of the behavioral dynamic that produces the frustration and sense of powerlessness many of us feel here.
>
> > Nothing will change.
> >
> > - Scott
>
> > I personally have given up completely on being able to make any sort of difference here.
> >
> > Dinah
>
> There are things I feel powerless to change, too. Does anybody here have any tips on how to deal with feelings of powerlessness?
>
> --
>
> > I don't like to repeatedly invest the time and energy to contest your same litany of disinformation, exaggerations, and overgeneralizations. Historically, others have contested your assertions without your engaging them in a dialogue.
> >
> > - Scott
>
> Lou may express what some posters fear. What would reassure those posters who feel afraid? If I were frightened of medication, I don't think blocking someone who expressed my fears would reassure me.
>
> A reassuring statement could be developed and reused, for example:
>
> > Almost any drug will cause death if not managed properly. It is true that drugs in general can cause death. Psychiatric drugs are not unique in this regard.
> >
> > http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16294364
>
> Still, it takes repeated investments of time and energy to reassure other posters. I can see how that could get old. It takes repeated investments of time and energy to moderate Babble.
>
> --
>
> > C. There are two standards here, Lou.
> > F. It [may] be good for this community as a whole to leave your notifications outstanding, Lou
> >
> > Lou Pilder
>
> Lou,
>
> 1. I wonder if you feel powerless to change how I behave. If so, you and other posters may have something in common.
>
> 2. In a way, there are in fact different standards, because time to respond to notifications is limited:
>
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#help
>
> 3. In a way, it may be good for this community to see that posts by you don't have to be responded to.
>
> 4. I should be careful what I wish for, too, but I might address more of your concerns if someone else notified me of them. Does anybody else here share your concerns? The goal here is support. Do you feel supported here? Maybe by Scott?
>
> > I'm sorry that you feel hated.
> >
> > - Scott
>
> --
>
> > Be advised that it is well-known how hate groups are fostered in a community and the horrific damage to the members that the hate induces to those that are in those groups.
> > First, psychologists have studied how hate is formed in a community to make a hate-group. It is not a mystery and you do not have to be a mastermind to foster a hate-group. For hate can be a mask that the hater wares to hide their insecurities. And then the hate elevates the hater above the ones that they are hating, (in their own minds that is). Then the hater solicits others to hate the target so that they can get what they think is validation from others to elevate (falsely) their self-worth and to prevent others from exposing them as having personal insecurities.
> > The haters thinks that they will be empowered by being in a group which they believe becomes a shield to prevent accountability for their acts of hatred. Hate ties the group together with their common cause so that they can debase the object of their hate which they think will bolster their self-image.
> > This becomes fashionable in a group where hate toward others is allowed to stand. The haters blame the victim of their hate to justify the hate. Their minds can be taken over by them falsely thinking that they will be doing good by destroying their target of hate. And then the target is not allowed to stand up to the bullies with hatred toward them.
> >
> > Lou
>
> I wouldn't disagree with the above, though I wouldn't overgeneralize, either. I wonder:
>
> 1. What leads one subgroup to become hated instead of others?
>
> 2. I could imagine some of those in the hated subgroup starting to hate those in the hating subgroup. Would the above dynamics then also start to apply also to them?
>
> 3. How might such a cycle be broken?
>
> BobMr Hsiung,
Here you ask me how the cycle of hate could be broken.
The cycle of hate can be broken by you, by you posting responses to my requests and notifications that are outstanding. Here is the way that I would break the cycle of hate if I had the authority to require that you post responses my concerns in those outstanding requests/notifications.
If I had the authority to require you to post responses I would first require you to post responses to the links that I provided to you in our {Hsiung-Pilder discussion}. These are the ones that I ask for you to declare if you consider the statement in question in those posts to be supportive or acceptable or something else. This is because your rules were here stating to not post what is not supportive for support takes precedence and to not post anything that could lead one to feel put down or accused and to not post anything that could put down those of other faiths. Then you changed your rules to say that statements that are not supportive can be posted if you think that they are acceptable, in the cases so far that we are in discussion with here. Now the cycle of hate IMHO is not broken by you changing your rules to say that some statements that are not supportive or could lead a Jew to feel put down or could put down those of other faiths, are OK to post here because you say that those are acceptable. The reason that I do not think that the cycle of hate could be broken by you saying that they are acceptable is because I think that some others could think of what you are doing to be oxymoronic in what you are doing by all of a sudden saying that statements that could lead a Jew to feel put down, are OK to post here because you say that they are acceptable by you. If the statement is not supportive and in the past those type of statements were not allowed to stand, some readers could think that by you changing your rules to allow statements that are not supportive that could lead a Jew to feel put down to now be allowed to stand, could think that you are stoking the furnace of hatred toward ,in particular but not limited to, the Jews by saying that statements that could lead a Jew to feel put down, which are antisemitic statements, are acceptable. So what I want you to do is to clear up any thought of there being an oxymoronic connection here, that you state what "acceptable" means to you. If you could do that, then I could post my response to you and show how the furnace of hate could be put out, for as it stands now, people could think that posting statements that could arouse anti-Semitic feelings and statements that put down other faiths, are "acceptable" which could mean a call to others to post more of the same which I think will stoke the furnace of hatred toward the Jews and others also, for after all, you say it is "acceptable". It is not acceptable to me, my friend, for I think it perpetuates the cycle of hate. Please go to the thread where I list the links of posts that I am asking for you to declare if the post is supportive or you will allow it to stand because it is acceptable to you or something else so that I have the opportunity to stop the cycle of hate here if what you post does not.
Lou PIlder
This is the end of the thread.
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