![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 52 to 76 of 117. Go back in thread:
Posted by 10derHeart on November 30, 2009, at 16:08:19
In reply to Re: editing posts after submission » Dr. Bob, posted by 10derHeart on November 30, 2009, at 15:56:55
Posted by gardenergirl on November 30, 2009, at 16:27:09
In reply to Re: editing posts after submission » Dr. Bob, posted by Dinah on November 29, 2009, at 2:10:36
I'd like to echo Dinah's statements about crazy-making. I grew up in a alcoholic household, and I'm particularly sensitive to "crazy-making".
In addition, the idea of being able to replace a post by revising it, especially as a way to avoid incivility, reminds me of the defense mechanism of "undoing". Undoing is not usually viewed as a particularly adaptive defense mechanism. I don't think that it would be generally in the best interest to promote the use of more primitive mechanisms on a site that purports to be supportive of mental health.
And on a similar note, though different topic...I acknowledge that anyone could post anything from this site on social networking sites anytime they want, and always could. However, I don't think that actually inviting them to and facilitating the behavior leads itself to a feeling of safety here, something that matters to me.
gg
Posted by muffled on November 30, 2009, at 17:20:37
In reply to Re: editing posts after submission, posted by gardenergirl on November 30, 2009, at 16:27:09
"...I acknowledge that anyone could post anything from this site on social networking sites anytime they want, and always could. However, I don't think that actually inviting them to and facilitating the behavior leads itself to a feeling of safety here"
Posted by muffled on November 30, 2009, at 17:21:40
In reply to Re: editing posts after submission » Dr. Bob, posted by 10derHeart on November 30, 2009, at 15:56:55
You got a big heart and you care.
Thats enuf for me.
Posted by 10derHeart on November 30, 2009, at 18:20:40
In reply to Never mind. It is because posts have replies. (nm) » 10derHeart, posted by 10derHeart on November 30, 2009, at 16:08:19
No, don't never mind. I still don't get it.
Any given post in a thread could or couldn't have replies, last, first middle...so I am still lost...
For the record, I have loved the aspect of Babble that includes *no* editing. I do not like editing posts, and certainly not unless I can see the original always, and if so, I see no point in the editing in the first place, surely not for civility purposes. Why not just post a new follow-up post of clarity, apology or explanation? Ever think if someone needs editing to "save face" that there are bigger things going on than the constraints of Babble's rules and policies? One can say, in a civil manner, that one declines to apologize or reword, if one feels so very strongly that way. I have already seen it done.
I frequent 2 other communities (not MH related) one allows editing, one does not. With the one that does, not once have I been able to follow the flow of the conversation where several posts said: "edited at such-and-such a time." I just shake my head and move on, and from comments in those threads, it appears a common thing for participants to do is to have to PM each other to clarify things anyway.... I just didn't see the advantage it is so completely confusing remembering one thing, then returning to see another, trying to guess what is missing, what is changed...I never could have responded to one of these posts as I had in mind one thing, then whole segments were gone, other parts used new words....{shakes head} And I don't have the time or inclination to go around saving all sorts of versions of posts to refer to later. Yes, IMO, it is all quite crazymaking.
For the one that does (BTW, with VERY relaxed civility rules - only outright cursing and threats are banned, all forms of name-calling, accusations, etc., are generally tolerated until a mod seems to tire of it and posts to say, "quit it, that enough, change the subject.") there are a lot of contentious, *long* threads. But those who try to stay above the fray, they just ask for explanations, apologies, and clarifications, and a lot of times do get them. All transparent and there for all to follow - the good, bad, ugly, screwed up, impulsive and all. It's not as safe or kind without Babble-type civility rules in place, BUT the not-disappearing posts I do like a lot.
I do also think it is not a so-called or imagined responsibility we all have for all of ours words, impulsive and otherwise. I take it seriously and am willing to suffer the consequences. All of us are likely going to mess that up from time to time. When we do, I see great value in walking through the discomfort of a PBC, self-chosen apology or retraction, or whatever we have to do to fix things. I know others do, but I cannot see it as a punishment. Posters can be thoughtful and contemplative before they hit the confirm button, or they can send their posts to a civility buddy.
I see asynchronous Babble posts like voice mails. I tend to do this with my therapist sometimes. I call and leave a message, maybe angry, confused, upset, tearful, or just plain weird. Then I want to explain, so I call back - numerous times if I feel the need. It's awkward, but I know he has heard the first words, and I can't un-say them. Maybe there are VM systems where you can edit first (probably) but I have not used them, and probably wouldn't. I can see some value but...I can also see that maybe something richer even comes out of having ALL the words available. Even if this were a friend or relative, I think I would feel the same. I have left some not-so-great VMs over the years for those people,too, and had to (or wanted to) explain myself later. I survived it without permanent damage, I think.
Dr. Bob just say right now if you have already decided this? I get the feeling as does Dinah, that this is a done deal. After the recent upset, I am so very disappointed if this is it - a brief discussion involving at the most, 6 people (2 of which do not regularly post here at the moment, well,almost 3 if you count me) way at the top of the board, and that's all the input you desire? Do you have prior evidence this is really, really wanted??
I guess I should thank you for even mentioning it at all.
Posted by SLS on December 1, 2009, at 5:35:29
In reply to Re: editing posts after submission, posted by Dr. Bob on November 30, 2009, at 15:07:33
> > Right now, the idea of being able to *amend* posts doesn't sit well with me. I'm not sure why. I really dislike the idea of editing, as it takes away from the flow of a thread.
>
> Scott, thanks for contributing your point of view. You saw that just the last post in the thread would be amendable, and those part of the flow up to that point wouldn't be?Oh. Sorry. I didn't see that.
Will think on that...
Thanks for everything.
- Scott
Posted by Dr. Bob on December 3, 2009, at 3:14:42
In reply to Re: Never mind. It is because posts have replies., posted by 10derHeart on November 30, 2009, at 18:20:40
> > I don't see revising as denying. Revise: 1 a : to look over again in order to correct or improve <revise a manuscript>.
>
> That's what the confirm this post step is for.Yes, and this would be a second chance.
> One suggestion I've heard is to hold posts that can be revised in limbo, so that they can be revised before they are posted. Sort of like confirm, but with a longer cooling off period.
Posters can always copy-and-paste a draft into a file on their computer, revise it there, and then copy-and-paste it back into a reply.
> honestly Dr. Bob, if you saw a post from someone who maybe didn't care for you overmuch in general, and that post sounded angry and offended, and you'd seen it had been edited, wouldn't it be just as likely that you would think that what had been edited out was pretty bad? Worse even than what might have actually been there? Well, you might not care, but I'd be incensed and certainly not have the reaction you propose. I'd wonder precisely what had been revised.
I'd wonder, too, but I'd appreciate it if they'd tempered their post.
> If I see a post written to me that is uncivil, I'll reply to it. I hope anyone who cares about my sanity will do the same for posts written about me.
That would seem to preserve as much incivility to you as possible?
> > Yes, those who did and didn't see the original would have different realities. But people here already have different realities because of private communications.
>
> They may have incomplete realities, but that's not the same as having different realities. If you need me to explain further I can.I need you to explain further. Couldn't deleting an original post be considered making a reality incomplete?
> What is an issue is that posting uncivil things, along the lines of attacks, not poor wording, reveals something about a poster. So does manning up and apologizing, or expressing regret. And so does pretending that it never happened and changing a post.
>
> Dinah> In addition, the idea of being able to replace a post by revising it, especially as a way to avoid incivility, reminds me of the defense mechanism of "undoing". Undoing is not usually viewed as a particularly adaptive defense mechanism. I don't think that it would be generally in the best interest to promote the use of more primitive mechanisms on a site that purports to be supportive of mental health.
>
> ggRevising a post isn't pretending it was never posted in the first place. Maybe simply deleting could be considered undoing, but revising is more like redoing.
> If I read something, then go back and it says something different, it would be crazymaking for me.
I could see that. But when you went back, it wouldn't say something different, it would be deleted and a different post would say something different.
> Also, Dr. Bob, the things that made Babble the very mature and interesting place that it is aren't unrelated to its structure. Babble is a better place, IMO, for encouraging people to think before they post.
I agree. This would encourage people also to think *after* they post.
> My suggestion was actually to allow revisions to be made at any time
>
> DinahWouldn't that be more crazy-making? And, as Scott said, take away from the flow of a thread?
> Doesn't it profoundly limit the poster's process of reflecting on a response and realizing that it doesn't adequately, or well, represent her views-as well as having the free chance to rethink and reword feelings-- which is lost if the person is now in the position of having to focus on an apology for some wrong-doing?
>
> why keep an unread, or unattended post permanent, without any chance for cool-headed reflection by the writer? Aren't we also truncating a potential learning experience of rethinking and revision of a response--and thereby becoming more aware of what one does or doesn't want to say, possibly learning how to write better first-draft replies?
>
> NadezdaNicely put, I agree.
> I can work around this. ... However, this is one more instance of something that has always been a big difference and advantage to me about Babble, and something I mention frequently as a reason I prefer Babble to other sites, changing. Babble is important to me, and I have expressed my feelings about something important to me, even vital to me, about someplace important to me. Something I've always found important about Babble, way back to the beginning.
I'm pleased that Babble is important to you, and that this has been an aspect of it that you've valued. This certainly would be a change, and anxiety is a natural response to change. Change can, however, be for the better. Thank you for being open to giving this a try and to working around it if necessary.
> In addition, yes, I do respect people who take responsibility for their actions rather than try to cover them up.
>
> DinahRevising something is a way of taking responsibility for it, too.
> > You saw that just the last post in the thread would be amendable, and those part of the flow up to that point wouldn't be?
>
> Can you explain some other way? ... what *is* the *last* post in a thread? Can't I post another post to any thread, any time?
>
> 10derHeartSorry, "last" = "most recent". If you post another post to the thread, what used to be the most recent post isn't anymore, and the new one is, so the old one wouldn't be amendable anymore, and the new one would be. Is that clearer?
> I see asynchronous Babble posts like voice mails. I tend to do this with my therapist sometimes. I call and leave a message, maybe angry, confused, upset, tearful, or just plain weird. Then I want to explain, so I call back - numerous times if I feel the need. It's awkward, but I know he has heard the first words, and I can't un-say them. Maybe there are VM systems where you can edit first (probably) but I have not used them, and probably wouldn't. I can see some value but...I can also see that maybe something richer even comes out of having ALL the words available. Even if this were a friend or relative, I think I would feel the same. I have left some not-so-great VMs over the years for those people,too, and had to (or wanted to) explain myself later. I survived it without permanent damage, I think.
Those who get more out of having all their words visible would be free not to revise them. It could be like not censoring one's thoughts in therapy.
> Dr. Bob just say right now if you have already decided this? I get the feeling as does Dinah, that this is a done deal.
>
> 10derHeartHave you already decided against this? :-)
I wouldn't say I've decided, but I think it's clear which way I'm leaning. I've valued your input and found it helpful in considering the potential pros and cons.
Bob
Posted by Dinah on December 3, 2009, at 7:42:10
In reply to Re: editing posts after submission, posted by Dr. Bob on December 3, 2009, at 3:14:42
> Yes, and this would be a second chance.
> Posters can always copy-and-paste a draft into a file on their computer, revise it there, and then copy-and-paste it back into a reply.
************************************************
> Revising a post isn't pretending it was never posted in the first place. Maybe simply deleting could be considered undoing, but revising is more like redoing.
> I could see that. But when you went back, it wouldn't say something different, it would be deleted and a different post would say something different.
> I wouldn't say I've decided, but I think it's clear which way I'm leaning. I've valued your input and found it helpful in considering the potential pros and cons.I'm sorry, but your own arguments don't appear to be internally consistent to me. Perhaps I'm not understanding correctly and someone can explain.
You didn't reply to my example of changing "F*ck you" to "Bless you".
I really shouldn't be commenting this much. My therapist made me promise I wouldn't interact with you for a while. And honestly, while I have much to say to a lot of what you wrote, my head is already sore from bashing against a wall. I find it very upsetting that you refer to my distress at being upset about change, and tell me that change can be for the better. I feel dismissed, although perhaps you didn't mean it that way. I have familiarity with this from elsewhere and I have always felt very strongly about this particular aspect of Babble as being a core reason of why I posted here and not elsewhere. I really don't feel you're listening to me if you say that I'm afraid of change. And I'm hard pressed to wish to continue this conversation.
Posted by Dinah on December 3, 2009, at 8:01:02
In reply to Re: editing posts after submission » Dr. Bob, posted by Dinah on December 3, 2009, at 7:42:10
I'll amend that to say I'm feeling unheard.
Posted by Dinah on December 3, 2009, at 10:54:14
In reply to Re: editing posts after submission, posted by Dr. Bob on December 3, 2009, at 3:14:42
> That would seem to preserve as much incivility to you as possible?
It would preserve the reality. If someone is uncivil to me, that's the reality.
>> My suggestion was actually to allow revisions to be made at any time
> Wouldn't that be more crazy-making? And, as Scott said, take away from the flow of a thread?
My proposal also included a link to the original, so not at all crazy-making. Flow would be interrupted, and some steps might need to be taken to keep Babble from being gutted by people wanting to effectively delete all their posts, but anyone reading the thread could click on the original.
It would have the advantage of answering the concerns of people who have posted, before they realized the google implications, identifying information (other than the sort you delete). Since that information would no longer be googleable, but would be available through the link inside the post, it would benefit a good number of posters who are now avoiding babble for google reasons.
While I truly do not see who it is that you are trying to benefit, since you brought it up as a civility measure. It would have been a wider benefit if you'd brought it up as a way to correct typos, mistaken doseages, incorrect medication names, etc. But who does it benefit as a civility measure? Those posters who wish to be able to be uncivil and avoid consequences by revising? How many of those people are there? But what is the potential for disruption and pain by a very few posters misusing the feature? This is a question of priorities. With which posters do your priorities lie?
>> honestly Dr. Bob, if you saw a post from someone who maybe didn't care for you overmuch in general, and that post sounded angry and offended, and you'd seen it had been edited, wouldn't it be just as likely that you would think that what had been edited out was pretty bad? Worse even than what might have actually been there? Well, you might not care, but I'd be incensed and certainly not have the reaction you propose. I'd wonder precisely what had been revised.
> I'd wonder, too, but I'd appreciate it if they'd tempered their post.
You are responding to this as if you believe the only use will be people who read their post and say oops. I didn't intend my post to read quite that way, let me amend it before it hurts anyone. While I am asking you about people who will express anger and/or hostility by deliberate attacks that are later amended to pretend they never happened. Besides, I'm not sure your response is typical. Did you try to put yourself in a poster's place?
> >> Yes, those who did and didn't see the original would have different realities. But people here already have different realities because of private communications.
>
>> They may have incomplete realities, but that's not the same as having different realities. If you need me to explain further I can.> I need you to explain further. Couldn't deleting an original post be considered making a reality incomplete?
A private communication takes place off board, and hopefully does not include anything that is completely different in the sense of opposing the reality of what is posted on board, although I suppose it could. It is known to only the very few posters who are involved in the private conversation.
An on board post that is posted and later revised is available to a large part of the Babble population before revision, depending on time involved. If the post later says something different, the reality of what is on Babble is changed. Those who saw one version have one version of reality. Those who saw the second version have a second version of reality. Only those who saw both versions have the actual reality.
You know, previous to this post, I had the idea that you understood what I was saying, that you understood that what I was worried about happening could and likely even would happen, but that you didn't care. Your priorities were elsewhere. There was no point in my responding further because you understood, but had chosen your priorities. What really flabbergasts me is that my proposal achieved what I'm guessing to be your goal, avoiding administrative consequences for incivility, while still preserving what I thought you counted dear. The integrity and unchanging nature of Babble posts. And what I counted dear, a consistent reality. So now I'm left wondering who your priorities do lie with and to what extent, since you are invested in hiding the original posts completely. Yet anyone can freeze any post any time by responding, although I'm not clear if responding to the thread is sufficient or if responding to that particular post is necessary. So the benefit to whoever it is you're trying to benefit is very limited.
Who are your priority in this?
Posted by SLS on December 3, 2009, at 22:37:19
In reply to Re: editing posts after submission » Dr. Bob, posted by Dinah on December 3, 2009, at 10:54:14
Well, for what it's worth, I think that allowing for the amending of posts is a bad idea. People can amend threads. That's what posting is for.
What were the advantages to amending posts?
1. Prevent the "wasting" of a post so as to circumvent the 3-post rule?
2. Prevent the "premature" reactions by the reader to extant uncivil words by obviating the need for the author to compose, and the reader to open, a follow-up post? Conversation is a behavior of sequential actions. One does not go back in time and amend their words. This would only serve to prompt authors of subsequent posts to change theirs in response. Things will get pretty messy.
- Scott
Posted by SLS on December 4, 2009, at 5:36:02
In reply to Re: editing posts after submission, posted by SLS on December 3, 2009, at 22:37:19
> 1. Prevent the "wasting" of a post so as to circumvent the 3-post rule?
Sorry. This makes no sense. Please disregard.
Hey! Look at me! I just amended my previous post!
- Scott
Posted by Dr. Bob on December 8, 2009, at 0:35:15
In reply to Re: editing posts after submission, posted by SLS on December 3, 2009, at 22:37:19
> You didn't reply to my example of changing "F*ck you" to "Bless you".
I'd appreciate that change, too. :-)
> I find it very upsetting that you refer to my distress at being upset about change, and tell me that change can be for the better. I feel [unheard]
Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that your distress was *just* about change.
> > That would seem to preserve as much incivility to you as possible?
>
> It would preserve the reality. If someone is uncivil to me, that's the reality.OK, I think I see now. That would seem to preserve as much uncivil reality as possible, but preserving as much reality as possible may be more important to some people (including you) than whether what's preserved is civil.
> You are responding to this as if you believe the only use will be people who read their post and say oops. I didn't intend my post to read quite that way, let me amend it before it hurts anyone. While I am asking you about people who will express anger and/or hostility by deliberate attacks that are later amended to pretend they never happened.
Since this is a support group, I think it's reasonable to assume that most posters don't intend to hurt and to trust their motivations for amending. But as a backup, deputies and I could check the copy of the original saved by the server to see if someone's denying something that did happen.
> An on board post that is posted and later revised is available to a large part of the Babble population before revision, depending on time involved. If the post later says something different, the reality of what is on Babble is changed. Those who saw one version have one version of reality. Those who saw the second version have a second version of reality. Only those who saw both versions have the actual reality.
That's true, those who didn't see the first post could be said to have an incomplete version of reality. To some extent, they would need to try to accept not knowing the original message.
> What really flabbergasts me is that my proposal achieved what I'm guessing to be your goal, avoiding administrative consequences for incivility, while still preserving what I thought you counted dear.
Where did you get the idea that my goal was avoiding administrative consequences for incivility?
> I'm not clear if responding to the thread is sufficient or if responding to that particular post is necessary.
Responding to any post would be sufficient. Just the most recent post would be amendable.
> Who are your priority in this?
>
> Dinah> What were the advantages to amending posts?
>
> - ScottIt would be a way to avoid, or at least lessen, hurt feelings. It would also give posters more control over what they post.
Bob
Posted by muffled on December 8, 2009, at 1:48:29
In reply to Re: editing posts after submission, posted by Dr. Bob on December 8, 2009, at 0:35:15
"It would be a way to avoid, or at least lessen, hurt feelings. It would also give posters more control over what they post.
Bob "
??? Seems feelings are beinging hurt by bob right now...
Anyway FWIW.I dunno, but on the site I post on, I think people edit their posts not because they are uncivil, but cuz we post it and we feel dumb for what we said, or upon re reading the post a little later, we realize it may 'sound' wrong.
Or maybe we disclosed too much and we want to retract some info.
But I dunno, but I doubt it ever has a whole lot to do w/civility. People tend to be very careful of each others feelings as best we can. So if something 'sounds' kinda harsh, we tend to give the poster the benefit of the doubt.
Seems to work good most of the time...Bob....are you LISTENING at all???
:(
seems noboddy here so far is really even interested in editing...so WHY are you persuing this????I go now damnit.
Posted by SLS on December 8, 2009, at 6:48:04
In reply to Re: editing posts after submission, posted by Dr. Bob on December 8, 2009, at 0:35:15
How would a reader be alerted when an author has edited their posts?
- Scott
Posted by Dinah on December 8, 2009, at 8:09:22
In reply to Re: editing posts after submission, posted by Dr. Bob on December 8, 2009, at 0:35:15
> Since this is a support group, I think it's reasonable to assume that most posters don't intend to hurt and to trust their motivations for amending. But as a backup, deputies and I could check the copy of the original saved by the server to see if someone's denying something that did happen.
Deletion/amendment *is* a denial. Not a verbal one, but a denial.
> That's true, those who didn't see the first post could be said to have an incomplete version of reality. To some extent, they would need to try to accept not knowing the original message.
Because of you. Because you said so. Not because it's inherently better. It *is* your site, true. But this seems very arbitrary, and without, IMO, explanation other than what you keep repeating without much elaboration. That this would be a way to lessen or avoid hurt feelings. I don't even understand that. You are proposing a change that is of minor benefit to anyone at all, given the limitations, but that takes away one of the fundamental advantages of Babble.
> Where did you get the idea that my goal was avoiding administrative consequences for incivility?
Because you proposed it as a way to deal with incivility. Not as a way to correct technical issues, but a way to deal with incivility.
> Responding to any post would be sufficient. Just the most recent post would be amendable.
Thank you for clarifying.
> It would be a way to avoid, or at least lessen, hurt feelings. It would also give posters more control over what they post.
You say this over and over, and yet reject without explanation a proposal that actually does give posters significantly more control over what they post, and a lot more over what can be found by Google. And don't really explain why it would avoid or lessen hurt feelings.
Dr. Bob, I know this is a support site. And ideally no one would ever troll here. Or bait. Or behave childishly. Or be deliberately unkind. And at its current size and google visibility maybe that's true. But you've been here longer than I have, and you know that this is not an idyllic enclave. You warn us of that over and over. You have always believed in leaving incivility up as a warning of that fact. And that I do grasp, because it is true. Disappearing posts (or disappearing them and substituting them with other posts - per your own description of revision) does not represent reality. My memory is not so short. I remember things that were far from supportive.
I remember times when you refused to remove posts that were enormously hurtful to the poster involved. And if that's what you're trying to fix, that's admirable, but this proposal won't do it. The facts of the situation would be all wrong. I can't say what is more similar, for fear of being uncivil or insensitive.
I get that you're going to do this. I don't think I'll ever understand *why* you would mess with reality, mess with something that made Babble special, for the reasons you have given.
Posted by Dinah on December 8, 2009, at 8:24:07
In reply to Re: editing posts after submission, posted by Dinah on December 8, 2009, at 8:09:22
It may be that as a long term, if temporarily inactive, deputy, it's easier for me to remember the times when people were less than supportive, because my attention was drawn to those times.
But it may be that as a long term deputy, if temporarily inactive, I have a greater understanding of what does happen and the potential for how things can be used by those who don't wish to be supportive, or who in anger or under the influence lash out at others and connect. Even if they regret it later, there is damage in the meantime. An ice bullet causes just as much damage, even if it later disappears. IMO, the wound is harder to heal if it is hidden. At least it is for me.
Also, I'm aware that the civility rules already allow incivility of some sorts, and realize the pain and anger that can cause. Because there *is* a difference between incivility and incivility facilitated by board guidelines. At least there is for me. Incivility by one person is less painful to me and more easily forgiven than incivility facilitated by others, in particular the authorities.
The fact that other former deputies have contributed to this thread with their own reservations may possibly be because we are aware of what has happened here. But *you* should also be aware of what has happened here. Do you have reason to believe that these things are no longer an issue at Babble?
Posted by SLS on December 8, 2009, at 15:22:57
In reply to Re: editing posts after submission, posted by Dr. Bob on December 8, 2009, at 0:35:15
Hi Doctor.
Aren't you assuming that the author will edit their posts before the reader can have their feelings hurt?
Wouldn't it be better to just let the author submit a follow up post with an automatic "New" flag available for the reader to see? Feelings are bound to be hurt with or without a retro-editing function. Someone can always post an apology. Allowing people to make mistakes and rectify them after the fact is a learning experience. Either allow posts to be deleted or fully editable, or just leave them alone.
Are you trying to eliminate cross-posting and prevent the escalation of conflict? Placing the words "Sorry" or "Apology" in the subject line of a follow up post should do the trick. What do you think?
I guess we are about to see what are the effects of allowing the editing of posts. When do we start?
- Scott
Posted by twinleaf on December 9, 2009, at 11:18:59
In reply to Re: editing posts after submission » Dr. Bob, posted by SLS on December 8, 2009, at 15:22:57
I see a lot of hopeful things in this thread. I think Dr. Bob is really making an extra effort to treat individual posters respectfully, and is genuinely trying to understand what posters really want to say to him. I think his asking the question about whether or not people feel safe here shows that he is becoming much more open to hearing how we really do feel about the issues which are important to us.
At the moment, it seems as though he is working hard on a solution to a "problem" which only he thinks we have- the need to erase or amend posts. Rarely, posters have asked for erasures because they have posted identifying information....e-mails and phone numbers.... which, upon reflection, they do not want to have on the internet. Dr. Bob has always been extremely co-operative in rapidly removing these identifiers whenever he is asked. I don't think we need anything more than this. Leaving original posts, and adding modified ones, which may include apologies or modified thoughts, seems to have worked just fine.
However, this does leave us with several unsolved problems. I think Dr. Bob knows that the answer to his question about whether people feel safe is, far too often, "no". Many people have ceased active posting, citing feelings of lack of safety, and almost all of the remaining posters post only in a brief, superficial manner. There is one exception to this- there still is fairly active medication information-sharing on the medication board. This is very helpful, but it involves little or no sharing of our personal selves. The volume of posting is way, way down, and there do not even appear to be any deputies who are willing to be active.
What is making people feel unsafe? The thing I would put first is the sense of not being heard or understood by Dr. Bob. The most recent example of this is, by at least 100-3, posters expressed their fears of being more likely to lose their privacy and anonymity if their posts were automatically forwarded to Twitter and Facebook. Dr. Bob never acknowledged to anyone that this was a valid fear on their parts. Instead, he attributed their concerns to a general "fear of novelty". Posters here do not have any special fear of new things; they are here, at least in part, because they are open to trying new, and possibly challenging, medications and therapeutic approaches. They also want to take the risk of forming new and rewarding relationships here. I think we all felt insulted to have our legitimate fears of loss of privacy translated, without any evidence, into a generalized fear of change.
While we all understand that Babble is a public forum, and that people find it through Google, the chances of being identified through the increased connections with Facebook and Twitter are real. It happened to me soon after Dr. Bob put the initial connections in place. My son has a very active
Facebook account. Someone posted a thread containing something I had written in 2004 about brain imaging. It was put there because it was relevant to what my son does; he is an experimental physicist who designs magnetometers which can be used, among other things, for new, more sensitive MRIs. Someone posted my comments on his Facebook because they thought that he might be interested in what I said, and the studies I mentioned. My son realized it was actually me- his mother- because my name was so unusual- a place name where we had often hiked when he was a child. He asked if it was indeed me, and I said it was. He saw how much additional, personal, sensitive information I had also posted here, and promised me that he would not read it. I would not have been nearly so lucky if someone had posted the same information to my employer- which could well have happened, and could still happen at any time..The second reason that people feel unsafe is closely related to the first one. Dr.Bob puts changes in place, such as the one about Twitter and Facebook, which may affect our safety and privacy, without prior consultation or discussion with us. Posters like me, who expressed disagreement, right at the start, about linking to these social networks, but who did so in a courteous and civil manner, are blocked without any warning- in my case, for five months. We do not expect that Dr. Bob will always agree with us, or necessarily do what we would like, but we do expect to be respectfully heard and understood. I do not think that respectful disagreement with Dr. Bob's views should result in a lengthy posting block. or indeed, in any block at all. But, more importantly, I think a real discussion within the community of changes like this one are vital.
This leads into the final reason for our feelings of lack of safety...long blocks. I have never seen a single poster express support for them. No-one, including Dr, Bob. has ever given any reasons for them- no explanation of how they are helpful to the posters involved, or to the community. I do not believe that there are any good or constructive reasons for them.
So, to sum up (sorry- long post!), we would like to hear from Dr. Bob something along the lines of. "yes, I do understand that there are things which I have done which have caused many of you to feel unsafe. I understand that you will not feel safe if I continually misinterpret what you are telling me. I understand, also, that you will feel unsafe if I take actions, without consulting with you, which may result in a loss of your privacy, and which could affect your jobs or personal life. And, finally, I understand that you do not think there are any appropriate reasons for long blocks, and that the fact that I continue to use them causes you to feel unsafe."
I used that format, above, just to express my thoughts clearly. I am not presuming to tell Dr. Bob what to do. But I am telling him where the problem areas are for us, and pointing out to him that, if there is to be a solution to the present crisis facing Babble, it will need to involve changes on his part. Without them, the sense of unsafety, and the progressive decline in posting, will just go on. I think Dr. Bob knows that Babble is very important to a great many people, and has been a very constructive force in their lives in the past. All of us who have had that very positive experience would love to find a way for Babble to be that way again. This is my contribution to that effort.
Posted by muffled on December 9, 2009, at 15:41:58
In reply to What we hope to see....(long!), posted by twinleaf on December 9, 2009, at 11:18:59
Bless you twinleaf.
That was a well worded, obviously well thot out post.
It is nice that you are trying to help.
I too beleive Bob is trying to make it work, but what are his reasons for doing so? THAT I do not know. I have never understood what drives him, what his motivations are in running this site.
WE have beem talking to him for YEARS about his lack of understanding, and he has changed some, but I am starting to believ he will never really understand. I don't think he is able to.
I am hoping he could get some help in running this site. Non babbler help. It is not fair to ask babblers to be admin, deps maybe, but not admin.
Cuz Bob is great at the tech stuff, this site runs very well technically.
But he needs some help w/the interpersonal end of things.
IF he would be willing to let them be a full partner and not override their decisions etc.
Maybe someone else would be willing to take over this site if Bob was willing to let go of it, just kinda be a silent partner or something...
Then we can get rid of the darn buttons.
But some good concrete examples in your post, thats helpful I think.
I am sure glad for you that your son is respectful of your privacy. Sorry that happened though, must have kinda shook you up :(
Anyhow, sorry to be a wet blanket, but I don't hold much hope for real big changes here.....
But I do keep popping back, ever hopeful...
I think what we longer term posters envision for babble is NOT what Bob envisions....and...as ever....its Bobs site...
Sigh.
Nice post though.
Great thinking there.
Thx
M
Posted by Dr. Bob on December 10, 2009, at 5:05:32
In reply to Re: What we hope to see....(long!), posted by muffled on December 9, 2009, at 15:41:58
> How would a reader be alerted when an author has edited their posts?
>
> - ScottFor example, the original post is 1234.html and says:
> > You're offensive!
The poster decides to edit that. In the meantime, 3 posts have been posted elsewhere. The original post, 1234.html, becomes:
> > revised, see: 1238.html
The new post is 1238.html and says:
> > I feel offended!
> this would be a way to lessen or avoid hurt feelings. I don't even understand that.
>
> DinahThe idea is the latter is an I-statement, so it would avoid hurt feelings if the other poster hadn't seen the original and lessen them if they had.
> Aren't you assuming that the author will edit their posts before the reader can have their feelings hurt?
>
> - ScottNot necessarily, revising could be a face saving alternative to an explicit apology and an implicit acknowledgement that what was originally posted oughtn't to have been.
--
> Deletion/amendment *is* a denial. Not a verbal one, but a denial.
I don't see revising as denying. Revise: 1 a : to look over again in order to correct or improve <revise a manuscript>. Deny: 1 : to declare untrue <deny an allegation>. Maybe we should agree to disagree?
> You ... reject without explanation a proposal that actually does give posters significantly more control over what they post
In your proposal, the original isn't revised, so how does that give posters more control or lessen or avoid hurt feelings?
> > Where did you get the idea that my goal was avoiding administrative consequences for incivility?
>
> Because you proposed it as a way to deal with incivility. Not as a way to correct technical issues, but a way to deal with incivility.Right, with the goal of lessening or avoiding hurt feelings.
> Disappearing posts (or disappearing them and substituting them with other posts - per your own description of revision) does not represent reality.
It would represent an incomplete reality. I do see now that for some people representing as much reality as possible may be more important than whether what's represented is civil.
> I don't think I'll ever understand *why* you would mess with reality, mess with something that made Babble special, for the reasons you have given.
I've done my best to explain. You don't understand or you don't agree?
> Even if they regret it later, there is damage in the meantime. An ice bullet causes just as much damage, even if it later disappears. IMO, the wound is harder to heal if it is hidden. At least it is for me.
Yes, there's damage in the meantime. But a bullet that melts wouldn't keep causing pain like a bullet that stays solid. Which is why they take out bullets.
> Incivility by one person is less painful to me and more easily forgiven than incivility facilitated by others, in particular the authorities.
>
> DinahPeople may speed more if they wear seat belts. Would you say seat belts facilitate speeding?
--
> It may be that as a long term, if temporarily inactive, deputy, it's easier for me to remember the times when people were less than supportive, because my attention was drawn to those times.
>
> But it may be that as a long term deputy, if temporarily inactive, I have a greater understanding of what does happen and the potential for how things can be used by those who don't wish to be supportive, or who in anger or under the influence lash out at others and connect.
>
> The fact that other former deputies have contributed to this thread with their own reservations may possibly be because we are aware of what has happened here. But *you* should also be aware of what has happened here. Do you have reason to believe that these things are no longer an issue at Babble?
>
> Dinah> on the site I post on, I think people edit their posts ... cuz we post it and we feel dumb for what we said, or upon re reading the post a little later, we realize it may 'sound' wrong.
>
> seems noboddy here so far is really even interested in editing...so WHY are you persuing this????
>
> muffled> Wouldn't it be better to just let the author submit a follow up post with an automatic "New" flag available for the reader to see? Feelings are bound to be hurt with or without a retro-editing function. Someone can always post an apology. Allowing people to make mistakes and rectify them after the fact is a learning experience. Either allow posts to be deleted or fully editable, or just leave them alone.
>
> Are you trying to eliminate cross-posting and prevent the escalation of conflict? Placing the words "Sorry" or "Apology" in the subject line of a follow up post should do the trick. What do you think?
>
> - Scott> At the moment, it seems as though he is working hard on a solution to a "problem" which only he thinks we have- the need to erase or amend posts. ... Leaving original posts, and adding modified ones, which may include apologies or modified thoughts, seems to have worked just fine.
>
> What is making people feel unsafe? The thing I would put first is the sense of not being heard or understood by Dr. Bob.
>
> twinleafI believe the potential for posters to be less than supportive, or to feel what they say is dumb, or harsh, are issues. How heard or understood by me they feel is an issue, too, but a separate issue. People can already submit a follow-up post and apologize. Sometimes they do, but sometimes they don't, which is why I believe there's a need for something else. Revising could also be a way to rectify and to learn. It would be a compromise between making posts fully editable and leaving them uneditable.
--
> we would like to hear from Dr. Bob something along the lines of. "yes, I do understand that there are things which I have done which have caused many of you to feel unsafe. I understand that you will not feel safe if I continually misinterpret what you are telling me. I understand, also, that you will feel unsafe if I take actions, without consulting with you, which may result in a loss of your privacy, and which could affect your jobs or personal life. And, finally, I understand that you do not think there are any appropriate reasons for long blocks, and that the fact that I continue to use them causes you to feel unsafe."
>
> twinleafYes, I understand that I and other posters may do things which cause you to feel safe or unsafe. I understand that you may not feel safe if you feel misunderstood by me or other posters. I understand that you may not feel safe if your privacy, your job, or your personal life could be affected. I understand that you may not think there are any appropriate reasons for long blocks, and that the fact that I continue to use them may cause you to feel unsafe.
I join muffled in feeling glad your son respects your privacy. I'd like to redirect discussion about the buttons to that other thread, which I do intend to return to.
--
> I am hoping he could get some help in running this site. Non babbler help. It is not fair to ask babblers to be admin, deps maybe, but not admin.
> IF he would be willing to let them be a full partner and not override their decisions etc.
> Maybe someone else would be willing to take over this site if Bob was willing to let go of it, just kinda be a silent partner or something...
> Then we can get rid of the darn buttons.
>
> MYou'd like a parent on your side?
--
Would any of you be interested in having a babblechat about this? If so, when would be a good time for you?
Bob
Posted by Dinah on December 10, 2009, at 8:20:52
In reply to Re: editing posts after submission, posted by Dr. Bob on December 10, 2009, at 5:05:32
> > this would be a way to lessen or avoid hurt feelings. I don't even understand that.
> >
> > Dinah
>
> The idea is the latter is an I-statement, so it would avoid hurt feelings if the other poster hadn't seen the original and lessen them if they had.Repeating what you've said does not help me understand what you've said.
You appear to be at the broken record stage, which is a boundary setting way of responding, not a discussion way of responding.
I see no point in continuing a conversation once it reaches this stage. I should have realized there was no point in continuing this from the beginning. This was the next time, and again I behaved the same way in the hope that the outcome would be different. Therapy obviously has not taken for me.
I don't know why you're so set on this, but you are. So why bother? Nadezda was right.
Posted by Dinah on December 10, 2009, at 9:16:02
In reply to Re: editing posts after submission, posted by Dr. Bob on December 10, 2009, at 5:05:32
Honestly, though, Dr. Bob. I'd appreciate it if you could explain, from the recipient's point of view, why someone would feel their hurt lessened. Let's use a couple of different examples rather than
"F*ck you, Dr. Bob"
changed to
"Bless you, Dr. Bob"
since your reaction likely isn't really typical.
Pretend you're another poster, and tell me how you think that recipient poster's thought processes would go if they read:
"You are a self righteous b*tch. I hate you and wish you were dead. You constantly lick Dr. Bob's *ss, and pretend to be all nice but really you are a vicious b*tch."
Then that was changed to
"I'm angry with you."
or even
"You are just so sweet."
What do you see the recipient's feelings being upon seeing the amended version if they've already seen the former version. What do you think that their thought processes would be?
What if they hadn't seen it, but lots of other people had, what do you foresee happening? How do you think people will respond? Will it make a difference how well liked the uncivil poster and the recipient poster may be? What do you think the thought processes would be from those who read it. You think this would lead to board harmony. So you must have some idea in mind about how people will react. What do you foresee happening?
How about on the meds board, if someone changes
"You are unbelievably ignorant about medications. You should just shut up and quit confusing people."
to
"I'd like to propose an alternate way of looking at this."
How about if a poster posted"You are fat and disgusting."
and then just removed the sentence.
I'm really interested in your thought processes, Dr. Bob. Because I'm not sure how you think posters think. And I really do want to know that or I will never be able to understand what you're saying.You keep repeating that amending it will lessen hurt feelings, so that wouldn't really explain things to me. Could you expound on that to say what precisely you think a poster would think if they saw the original and then the subsequent post?
Could you say what you think third party posters would think, or how it would play out on board, and whether you think it would be different if it was a popular or unpopular poster posting and/or receiving?
And really, any quick look back at the archives would point out that while the vast majority of posters might not do this, there have always been a small minority who have done similar enough things to make this not unlikely. This is open to the entire world. It isn't a closed community of known and trusted Babblers.
I get that the amendment of reality doesn't matter enough to stop this change to Babble, even though you understand that it is crazymaking. But I really am curious as to what you see as the benefit? Please don't be a broken record about this. I'm making the effort of having a conversation.
Nadezda explained things from the writing poster's point of view. But obviously my nature, and what I perceive as being the natural reaction of others, isn't what you see human nature as being. I just can't imagine what you think the recipient poster's point of view may be.
Posted by muffled on December 10, 2009, at 11:00:43
In reply to Re: editing posts after submission, posted by Dr. Bob on December 10, 2009, at 5:05:32
> I am hoping he could get some help in running this site. Non babbler help. It is not fair to ask babblers to be admin, deps maybe, but not admin.
> IF he would be willing to let them be a full partner and not override their decisions etc.
> Maybe someone else would be willing to take over this site if Bob was willing to let go of it, just kinda be a silent partner or something...
> Then we can get rid of the darn buttons.
>
> MYou'd like a parent on your side?
*yes, cuz the one parent we got just don't get the personal stuff. he don't understand hurt and stuff.
Ya, you sure got that right.
Need more balanced parenting.
LOL< but you ain't old nuff to be my daddy ha ha ha.
So mebbe it more actually like I want a fellow adult that understands us babblers. Cuz dude, the one we got sure don't.
Ah sugar and spice, you dunno WHAT friggin restraint I showing man....
I being GOOD.
Posted by muffled on December 10, 2009, at 11:18:11
In reply to Re: editing posts after submission, posted by Dr. Bob on December 10, 2009, at 5:05:32
"Would any of you be interested in having a babblechat about this? If so, when would be a good time for you?"
I am pacific coast time, and I gots kids, so I gotta take care them kids for supper and stuff.
I think it be interesting to have chat re: this cuz I don't care so much bout the function that being proposed(ha ha listen to me!!!)but I kinda curious why Bobbo so set on it? WHY? This nother experiment? Bobs having fun playin and he don't care bout it botherin peoples here?
But see, mebbe on chat, then maybe it more clear somehow??? Mebbe not, that be interesting too.
I think, I dunno, but if you do IM chat, then you can save the chat? and then read it later? Is that so? Then maybe that be better option? Cuz depending, but sometime it takes me time to think and stuff.
Proly Bob , proly he make me nutty on chat even MORE, but we can see4 if it a time I can be there.
I think even tho Bob being kinda a dinkhead we should respect he trying to set up a chat w/concerned parties(damn, listen to me talk huh?!).
So I up for it.
But mebbe I in a bad time zone(LOVE that word ZONE! who thot of that word!?, it WAY cool).
So like for me 7:30 pacific coast, which be mebbe 9:30 central? is good but mebbe that late I dunno.
OK.
So mebbe Bob bein an *ss alot, but mebbe he a trying *ss hey?
we be nice and let him try I s'pose?
I will.
K
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