![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 27 to 51 of 97. Go back in thread:
Posted by Zeba on September 6, 2008, at 22:42:26
In reply to Re: post something on that thread, posted by Dr. Bob on September 6, 2008, at 14:00:19
And sure I could do it as a mh professional, but I don't have the information you have and would consider it unethical for me to try to deal with someone suicidal on this board.
Zeba
Posted by 64bowtie on September 7, 2008, at 3:33:10
In reply to Re: post something on that thread, posted by Dr. Bob on September 6, 2008, at 14:00:19
Back when I was really naive, back in the early and mid 70's, I effected several suicide interventions... I was on a mission...
Ask yourselves why I only lasted 2 years before my burnout... When you find the answers, you won't be interested in my glory stories of my successes... I still remember my pain and the shadows cast by my failures...
I really like where I am these days...
Rod
Posted by seldomseen on September 7, 2008, at 9:54:08
In reply to Kattwoman suicidal posts, posted by Marty on September 3, 2008, at 15:42:21
What if we just summarily deleted posts that contained threats of suicide in them? Just adopted a zero tolerance policy regarding this issue.
I would make clear from the beginning that this policy would not include posts in which the poster states they simply feel suicidal. I mean, hell, who doesn't from time to time and babble is a great place to vent that.
However, I am beginning to see a clear difference in posts which say "I feel like committing suicide" vs those that say "I'm going to kill myself/have already started etc..."
The previous posts are those the the community can help with, rally around and do what babble was designed to do. The latter, well, it requires a much more acute intervention that the community does not have the resources to absorb. This is not a suicide hotline.
But, I can see both sides and am seeking opinions from all. Not that once I form my opinion it will matter, but just want to see what others think.
Seldom
On one hand,
Posted by Phillipa on September 7, 2008, at 12:33:40
In reply to What is the opinion of the community on this?, posted by seldomseen on September 7, 2008, at 9:54:08
I myself can't turn away from someone in pain. I did a suicide intervention to an old babbler who we were communicating via e-mail. He was found and hospitalized and today no longer visits here he is being treated outpatient and doing fine. I feel if on the boards that I can't handle it anymore other than to give support. That's my feeling. Phillipa
Posted by obsidian on September 7, 2008, at 12:51:37
In reply to What is the opinion of the community on this?, posted by seldomseen on September 7, 2008, at 9:54:08
I am in favor of deleting posts in which the poster says they are going to or are in the process of commiting suicide.
There is a link or something on this site which directs you to helpful info if you are feeling suicidal, isn't there?
I think there is too much of a pull to respond to these individuals or be left to feel guilty about not responding because it was so obvious that they needed help. One usually can't be sure that they will receive it on their own.
I think the problems outweigh the benefits when it comes to allowing these types of posts. seriously...I really do.
Posted by Phillipa on September 7, 2008, at 12:54:26
In reply to Re: What is the opinion of the community on this? » seldomseen, posted by obsidian on September 7, 2008, at 12:51:37
My big But is what if we can talk them down and into seeing someone. My training always said it was a cry for help. That's just me though. Love Phillipa
Posted by obsidian on September 7, 2008, at 13:28:41
In reply to Re: What is the opinion of the community on this? » obsidian, posted by Phillipa on September 7, 2008, at 12:54:26
> My big But is what if we can talk them down and into seeing someone. My training always said it was a cry for help. That's just me though. Love Phillipa
sure it is, but we don't necessarily have to be the ones to talk them down into seeing someone. I am extremely selfish when it comes to this. I don't want to be in that position.
Posted by obsidian on September 7, 2008, at 14:02:28
In reply to Re: What is the opinion of the community on this? » Phillipa, posted by obsidian on September 7, 2008, at 13:28:41
I realize I have some complicated feelings about this, so I'll just throw out a couple of thoughts in case anyone else relates and so some people might not think I am a heartless bitch (you might anyway):
1. I have watched people in my life destroy themselves, and I have realized that there has usually not been all that much I could do about it. I wish it weren't true.
2. I have realized that when certain people have spent their time talking to me about something that it was really someone else they needed to be talking to and/or somewhere else they needed to be
3. The next time I get suicidal, I don't want anyone here to worry about me. I don't want to do that to anyone. I care about you a lot, and I do not wish to add to your struggle.
4. I know that people are not in their "right mind" when they are suicidal. I don't want to end up in a futile attempt to provide reason to someone who can't respond and/or connect to reason.
5. I "feel" suicidal is A LOT different than, "I've got the pills, would you like to watch?"
enough said for now....
may everyone treasure the life they have
Posted by Zeba on September 7, 2008, at 14:37:44
In reply to What is the opinion of the community on this?, posted by seldomseen on September 7, 2008, at 9:54:08
You are absolutely right, seldomseen. Thinking about suicide and actually taking steps to kill oneself are two different things. Of course it is appropriate to give support to people who are thinking about suicide.
When someone says I have what I need to kill myself, and I have already taken steps to end my life, for example, that is not something babble posters should be asked to handle. We don't know who the person really is or where that person lives, etc. So, we have to stand by helplessly to intervene with someone who is in the process of killing himself or herself. We should not be asked to intervene as we really can't.
Zeba
Posted by Zeba on September 7, 2008, at 14:39:44
In reply to Re: What is the opinion of the community on this? » seldomseen, posted by Phillipa on September 7, 2008, at 12:33:40
Phillipa,
What if that person was just a babbler or had babble turned off, and you did not know who that person was? How would you feel if you did not even know who the person is?
Zeba
Posted by Nadezda on September 7, 2008, at 14:46:38
In reply to What is the opinion of the community on this?, posted by seldomseen on September 7, 2008, at 9:54:08
I would be strongly against deleting posts by people who say that they're in the process of committing suicide, or anything of that kind.
First of all, we have no idea how people may communicate. Someone may simply state as a fact something that is a strong wish, or that feels imminent.
I personally believe that deleting posts would be like erasing the person, or rejecting their statement of pain. We could have no idea of where the person is emotionally or what that might mean to them. Even if they have made an irrevocable decision, I wouldn't want us to be the last ones who were unwilling to tolerate their expression of pain.
Nadezda
Posted by Dr. Bob on September 7, 2008, at 14:58:22
In reply to Re: post something on that thread » Dr. Bob, posted by AbbieNormal on September 6, 2008, at 17:50:21
> Not publically. I bmailed you.
Got it, OK.
Bob
Posted by Dr. Bob on September 7, 2008, at 14:58:28
In reply to Re: post something on that thread » Dr. Bob, posted by Zeba on September 6, 2008, at 22:40:33
> So someone who may be unstable, hey okay let that person deal with a suicidal individual if they want to???? What kind of ethics is that, Bob???
I see it as letting them decide what's best for them.
Bob
Posted by Sigismund on September 7, 2008, at 16:55:13
In reply to What is the opinion of the community on this?, posted by seldomseen on September 7, 2008, at 9:54:08
Someone might say (as some have)
'I've had enough. I'm going to do it.'Does that fall under 'I feel like suicide' or is that 'I'm going to kill myself'?
I don't think the distinction is as clear as we might like it to be.
Posted by Zeba on September 7, 2008, at 16:56:12
In reply to Re: dealing with suicidal individuals, posted by Dr. Bob on September 7, 2008, at 14:58:28
> > So someone who may be unstable, hey okay let that person deal with a suicidal individual if they want to???? What kind of ethics is that, Bob???
>
> I see it as letting them decide what's best for them.
>
> Bob
So, even if one does not know who the person is, but YOU do, you seem to view it as the responsibility of the posters to deal with the situtation, not you. I wonder how your colleagues would view that. I will go ahead and ask a sampling of psychiatrists I know what they would have to say about this.Zeba
Posted by Sigismund on September 7, 2008, at 16:56:59
In reply to Re: What is the opinion of the community on this?, posted by Nadezda on September 7, 2008, at 14:46:38
>I wouldn't want us to be the last ones who were unwilling to tolerate their expression of pain.
Yes
Posted by Justherself54 on September 7, 2008, at 17:45:02
In reply to Re: What is the opinion of the community on this?, posted by Sigismund on September 7, 2008, at 16:56:59
I don't think any posts should be deleted. If we start making policy for one type of situation, where does it end? We don't think twice about responding to posters about medication issues, when none of us are doctors (to my knowledge). Do we form policy that we aren't allowed to do that as we aren't qualified?
Also, how would a policy of deleting any posts about committing suicide be enforced? To my knowledge, there isn't round the clock supervision of this website.
This is my opinion only but if I were actually going to end my life, I cant see myself posting on a mental health support forum unless I really didn't want to go through with it. I think the person was looking for some intervention and by the sounds of it was able to receive same.
Another thing, we also don't really know what went on behind the scenes in Admin. I think we're all assuming that absolutely no action was taken by Admin, but do we really know that as fact?
As far as I can tell we were just notified that she was OK. If I missed something, please let me know. I don't know how she was found, by whom and what information was given to the people to enable them to find her.
Sorry if this post is disjointed, but it's the best I can do during a med withdrawal.
Posted by Zeba on September 7, 2008, at 17:55:47
In reply to Re: What is the opinion of the community on this?, posted by Justherself54 on September 7, 2008, at 17:45:02
I am sorry, but I completely disagree with you. As a mh professional, I know for a fact that some people will make their last dying act a post or letter or phone call to someone before they die. I really do not think it is fair to ask babble posters to try to intervene with someone who has already taken steps to end his or her life. We have no way of knowing who this person might be. I am not saying to eliminate the posts; I am just saying that Dr. Bob has some repsonsibily here.
It is a fallacy to believe that if someone says they are in the process of killing themself, that they are really looking to be stopped or don't want to really kill themself. Many people make an outcry, but there are others who mean business when they say they are going to kill themself (make an outcry) or are in the process of killing themself.
Zeba
Posted by Phillipa on September 7, 2008, at 18:16:54
In reply to Re: What is the opinion of the community on this?, posted by obsidian on September 7, 2008, at 14:02:28
She did post she had the means with her in the motel. To me this means that it's serious and needs to be treated that way. Just did a lot of crisis intervention when a psych nurse it was our responsibility after a certain time of day and also had to visit the magistrate many times to commit a patient that was either suicidal or pschotic. So I've done it before. Love Phillipa
Posted by Phillipa on September 7, 2008, at 18:39:17
In reply to Re: What is the opinion of the community on this? » Phillipa, posted by Zeba on September 7, 2008, at 14:39:44
Zeba I didn't know Kattwoman but due to diligent work of another poster she was found what happened then who knows but at least something was done. It's a choice that each babbler has to make for themselves is my feeling. Phillipa
Posted by Dinah on September 7, 2008, at 19:26:41
In reply to Re: post something on that thread » Dr. Bob, posted by Zeba on September 6, 2008, at 9:13:13
> We have no idea where these people are, or at least most of us don't. You have their real names, etc.
Just as a clarification... Dr. Bob doesn't have our real names. He has our email addresses, but most of us register with anonymous addresses.
Posted by Justherself54 on September 7, 2008, at 19:31:53
In reply to Re: What is the opinion of the community on this? » Zeba, posted by Phillipa on September 7, 2008, at 18:39:17
There seems to be two different issues caught up in one thread. Anger at Dr. Bob for requesting posters deal with a suicide post and whether suicide posts should be deleted.
I don't know about anybody else but I'm finding it hard to focus.
Posted by gardenergirl on September 7, 2008, at 20:15:29
In reply to Re: What is the opinion of the community on this?, posted by Nadezda on September 7, 2008, at 14:46:38
> I would be strongly against deleting posts by people who say that they're in the process of committing suicide, or anything of that kind.
>
> First of all, we have no idea how people may communicate. Someone may simply state as a fact something that is a strong wish, or that feels imminent.
>
> I personally believe that deleting posts would be like erasing the person, or rejecting their statement of pain. We could have no idea of where the person is emotionally or what that might mean to them. Even if they have made an irrevocable decision, I wouldn't want us to be the last ones who were unwilling to tolerate their expression of pain.
>
> NadezdaThat was my gut reaction about deleting, too.
gg
Posted by Zeba on September 7, 2008, at 22:27:22
In reply to Re: post something on that thread, posted by Dinah on September 7, 2008, at 19:26:41
Well, with real email addresses, one can be found by one of the free search engines. I have done it before. People give phoney addresses when they sign up???? I didn't.
If no one had known how to reach this person, then what do you think would have been the result???
Zeba
Posted by Zeba on September 7, 2008, at 22:35:18
In reply to Re: What is the opinion of the community on this?, posted by Justherself54 on September 7, 2008, at 19:31:53
I do not think it is hard to figure out at all. The thread started out with how to handle truely suicidal babblers.
The thread then evolved to include comments about if such things should be removed or not from babble.
I would suppose that since nothing else is removed, then why this.
The other part having to do with having babblers deal with someone who is trying to kill themself, well I think it is not okay. I don't know anyone's email address. I used to know the email address of some people, but I have removed them from my list of people I email. This could be debated for forever. All I know is that I believe that peers should be allowed to weigh in on this, i.e., other psychiatrists.
Zeba
Go forward in thread:
Psycho-Babble Administration | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.