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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by SLS on July 11, 2012, at 7:05:02
In reply to Re: Re Instead...., posted by mbrational on July 11, 2012, at 3:12:31
> It is so typical for children who were abused physically (and yes smacking is physical abuse and emotional abuse too because it is so humilating)) to justify their parents behavior as they grow up. And as they think it didn`t hurt them they think they have the right to do the same to their own children and so the vicious circle continues and another generation gets involved. I think its particularly disgusting when those people become teachers.
>
> Markus
I think the induction of a major mental illness is a multifactorial phenomenon for which childhood physical abuse, corporal punishment, and neglect can be contributing, although not sufficient, variables. For some people, they are not contributors at all. The article being referred to seems to indicate that there are phenomenological differences between physical abuse and physical punishment.
- Scott
Posted by mbrational on July 11, 2012, at 7:51:28
In reply to Re: Re Instead...., posted by SLS on July 11, 2012, at 7:05:02
I agree. But you can not change your genes, the way children are treated is changeable though. And of course there are people with the right genetical make up, that can be treated extremely harsh as children but who will never develop a psychiatric disease. But even in that cases the education might have bad consequences, resulting in a reduced ability to have emotional fullfilling relationships as adults for example.
Posted by mbrational on July 11, 2012, at 16:03:33
In reply to Re: Re Instead...., posted by mbrational on July 11, 2012, at 7:51:28
Furthermore smacking children is a great way to teach them that interpersonal problems can be solved with physical violence.
Markus
Posted by gadchik on July 11, 2012, at 16:45:55
In reply to Re: Re Instead...., posted by mbrational on July 11, 2012, at 16:03:33
I remember the shock of being hit by someone you love,when you are a child.It didnt make me want to be "good".It made me see the world in a bad way.
Posted by linkadge on July 11, 2012, at 21:28:16
In reply to Re: Re Instead...., posted by mbrational on July 11, 2012, at 3:12:31
>It is so typical for children who were abused >physically (and yes smacking is physical abuse >and emotional abuse too because it is so >humilating))
It doesn't create a vicious cycle unless its excessive or unjustified. In WWII did we say....no we can't hurt anybody.....it will just create a vicious cycle! I was never hit without justification. There was never a time where I was hit where I would say....what was that for? I knew exactly what it was for and quite prefered my punshments quick. Just like grabbing a burner and getting a nib of pain. Maybe we should keep our children in a bubble to prevent them from feeling any pain at all. And while you're at it, disinfect every surface with Lysol.
Its when parents hit their children out of anger, rather than good reason, that the child does not understand this. Thats when they become frustrated and want to take their anger out on somebody else.
When I walked away from a spanking, I was not angry. Infact I was happer that we got it over with and I wasn't grounded for a month.
Answer me this.....
What hardens a criminal more: a few whacks with a cane or time behind bars? Get it over with.
Its all about how you want the bandaid taken off.
>they have the right to do the same to their own >childrenThey do.......if the child diserves it.
>particularly disgusting when those people become >teachers.
Heh. Maybe you should give it a try.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on July 11, 2012, at 21:47:51
In reply to Re: Re Instead...., posted by SLS on July 11, 2012, at 7:05:02
My parents loved me. They cared for me. They always had food on the table and fresh sheets on the bed. They took me to church and taught me good morals. They also occasionally hauled me over their knee and spanked me in public when I diserved it. Because it worked. This was not abuse.
The real abuse these days is letting kids run wild. Fathers out of the the picture....mothers who get home at 8:00pm with McDonalds...growing up infront of a computer screen...bribing kids with sugar and video games...keeping kids off the swing for fear of a nick on the knee...
The "modern parent" has produced children with elevated rates of diabetes, obesity, mental health problems, declining academic standards...you name it.
Dr. Spock's kid hung himself. Spock was supposed to be the 'model parent'.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on July 11, 2012, at 21:49:21
In reply to Re: Re Instead...., posted by mbrational on July 11, 2012, at 7:51:28
The big problem these days is not what the parent does....but what the parent doesn't do.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on July 11, 2012, at 22:12:59
In reply to Re: Re Instead...., posted by mbrational on July 11, 2012, at 16:03:33
>Furthermore smacking children is a great way to >teach them that interpersonal problems can be >solved with physical violence.
A spanking is not 'voilence'.
Your child is not not your equal. They are not your 'buddy' nor your 'pal'. You are the parent and they are the child. Too many parents think that by being their child's "friend", the child will love them enough to never do anything wrong.
I'm all for having a good 'relationship' with your children, but I have witnessed parents who try and 'reason' with their two year old who is having an hour long temper tantrum over wanting a chocolate bar. Not working!!! You're arguing with the lower brainstem of a 2 year old!!! Their cerebral cortex is *not* on!!
Posted by linkadge on July 11, 2012, at 22:21:38
In reply to Re: Re Instead...., posted by gadchik on July 11, 2012, at 16:45:55
>I remember the shock of being hit by someone you >love,when you are a child.It didnt make me want >to be "good".It made me see the world in a bad >way.
Why would you be shocked if you deserved it?
If you 'loved them' why would you do something to diserve being spanked?
(unless you are taking about something more severe here...which I am BTW not condoning)
Did you really 'love' you parents when:
-they grounded you for a month?
Did you really 'love' you parents when:
-they said you could no longer date Charly?
Did you really 'love' you parents when:
-they removed the phone from your room?
Did you really 'love' you parents when:
-they cut off your allowance for two weeks
Did you really 'love' you parents when:
-They took away your Barby
Did you really 'love' you parents when:
-They forbid you from watching your favorite show?
Did you really 'love' you parents when:
-They forced you to do your homework.
The fact is that all kids hate their parents from time to time.My question for you was
a) what did you do that resulted in the hit?
b) was the hit, out of anger, or proportion?
Posted by mbrational on July 12, 2012, at 1:57:13
In reply to Re: Re Instead...., posted by linkadge on July 11, 2012, at 21:28:16
When a person gets hit, it usually results in feeling anger, sadness, humiliation etc.. But many children don`t even allow themselves to feel those feelings because they have to preserve their image of a "good parent". (A child is not able to care for itself, its life depends on his parent therefore his prognosis is mighty bleak when it doesn`t have a "good parent"). So the child begins to twist the reality:
I was a pest,
I was a brat,
I deserved it,
It was a totally justified smacked,
I prefer my punishment quick."
Twenty years later the child defends his parents on a messageboard and passionately argues in favor of spanking, because it feels somewhat uneasy when the topic about physical punisment and mental illness comes up.
On the other hand there are some children that are courageous enough to feel their justified feelings of anger sadness and dissapointment when they get hit by their parents. Those are the adults that decide: "I am not going to do those things I was hurt by to any other person especially not to my own children.
Similarly some persons who are sexually abused as children become abusers themselves when they grow up, while others devote their lifes to fight against sexual abuse of children.Markus
Posted by gadchik on July 12, 2012, at 6:24:48
In reply to Re: Re Instead...., posted by linkadge on July 11, 2012, at 22:21:38
I think we have to agree to disagree.
Posted by gadchik on July 12, 2012, at 6:25:51
In reply to Re: Re Instead...., posted by mbrational on July 12, 2012, at 1:57:13
Posted by mbrational on July 12, 2012, at 9:21:25
In reply to Well said, Markus. (nm), posted by gadchik on July 12, 2012, at 6:25:51
Thank you.
Posted by Dinah on July 12, 2012, at 10:00:15
In reply to Re: Re Instead.... » SLS, posted by linkadge on July 11, 2012, at 21:47:51
When I was growing up, spankings were the norm. My mother actually got criticized for not spanking me, and instead reasoning with me. The general idea was that "Because I said so." and a judicious spanking were superior to explanations.
She did, on rare occasion, lose control and was physical with me in anger. That was scary.
We raised my son the same way we were raised, minus the out of control anger. We didn't ever use physical punishment. Or even time outs, because my son was apparently extremely upset by time outs. We spoke to him about the reasons for rules, and recognized that he needed to follow rules for the right reason, not for fear of being spanked. Because we wouldn't always be around to spank him. He is a delightful young man, and more apt to follow rules than even we are. And we follow rules quite well.
My friends who were spanked don't show signs of mental illness. But I think an important component of this is societal norms. In my childhood, the norm was being willing to spank when it was considered necessary. A parent who spanked was not necessarily on the more strict side of the average. In today's society, fewer people spank, so kids who are spanked might also lie on the outer fringe of parental authoritarianism. That might cause damage that just wouldn't have come about when spankings were spoken of as expected.
I will also say that I think using reasoning and high expectations carries its own risk of mental health issues. We sometimes jokingly apologize to our son for trusting him and expecting the best from him. As well as teaching him that trust is a valuable and not unlimited commodity, not to be squandered lightly. We know the heavy burden this can be to a decent kid. We're not altogether certain it won't lead to its own issues.
I understand what you're seeing in schools, and agree that it's symptomatic of societal breakdown. But perhaps you're associating physical punishment with other hallmarks of good parenting that aren't as widespread today. Family dinners, time spent together, parental supervision and involvement. The kids who have those things today are among the best kids I've ever seen, and probably make my generation look like lazy pleasure seekers. But the kids who don't have that, and who I'm guessing make the most impression in the classroom, can make one long for the days of corporal punishment. Because one can feel so helpless and impotent confronting such a lack of respect for authority. What can you do to restore order in your classroom, when it's politically incorrect to isolate the disruptive kids so the kids who want to learn are able to do so? It's unfair and it's frustrating.
That being said, I can't imagine using physical discipline on my son. But admittedly kids are born with different temperaments. I always say that what works for an Italian Greyhound just is not appropriate for a Boxer, and vice versa. I like to think that even the more boisterous kids could be trained to proper respect for others without resorting to physical measures.
(And as you quite rightly say, spanking was often the easier punishment. A quick slap on the rump and it was over. While groundings, or in the case of my son - lectures, last a good deal longer. So maybe you could see them as even more stringent punishment.)
Posted by Dinah on July 12, 2012, at 10:05:49
In reply to Re: Re Instead...., posted by linkadge on July 11, 2012, at 22:12:59
Mid tantrum is never the best time for reason. But talking to your children all the time about candy being a very occasional treat, and being consistent about not getting it, prevents a lot of tantrums.
I only remember my son having a tantrum once when he didn't want to leave an activity. When he threw himself on the ground and howled, I sat down next to him, agreed it was terrible to have to leave, and howled myself. (I'll point out that we were among friends.) He was so startled that he got up and we left. I'm not altogether sure that that was the best tactic either. Parenting is full of being not at all sure what on earth to do, and just doing the best I can. I hope my son recognizes that some day.
Posted by Dinah on July 12, 2012, at 10:21:20
In reply to Re: Re Instead...., posted by mbrational on July 12, 2012, at 1:57:13
I don't use corporal punishment on my son, and as I said it wasn't used routinely on me in my childhood.
However, neither I nor my friends considered their parents abusers for giving the occasional spanking. It was considered normal in those days. Their parents were decent people trying to do their best for their kids to the best of their understanding.
Posted by mbrational on July 12, 2012, at 10:43:01
In reply to Re: Re Instead.... » mbrational, posted by Dinah on July 12, 2012, at 10:21:20
I am from Austria. The generation of my grandparents killed 6 million jews in Austria and Germany. My grandparents were not involved (to the best of my knowledge) but they knew people who were. They said they were decent people, it was considered normal then. They said they just did their duty and tried their best.
I do not care about what is considered normal. I just care about what is right or wrong. (Without wanting to imply that I know a lot about what is right or wrong).Markus
Posted by Dinah on July 12, 2012, at 13:03:50
In reply to Re: Re Instead...., posted by mbrational on July 12, 2012, at 10:43:01
Your attitude is not at all unusual these days - at least on the internet. There does seem to be a tendency to compare things like spanking to the Holocaust.
I recognize that you care about right and wrong, and are attempting to do right.
Posted by mbrational on July 12, 2012, at 13:32:35
In reply to Re: Re Instead.... » mbrational, posted by Dinah on July 12, 2012, at 13:03:50
It was just an exaggerated comparison to make the point that often what is considered normal is nevertheless not the right thing to do. I am certainly not comparing the holocaust to spanking. (Though interestingly psychologist Alice Miller is arguing that the extreme beating and punishment practiced especially by the parents of this generation in Germany is what made the cruelty and lack of empathy of the holocaust possible in the first place.)
Markus
Posted by Dinah on July 12, 2012, at 13:43:01
In reply to Re: Re Instead...., posted by mbrational on July 12, 2012, at 13:32:35
Exaggeration is something that tends to turn me in the opposite direction.
I will be the first to say that extreme physical punishment is inexcusable.
There are so many ways to be a rotten parent. I don't believe in spanking myself, but I don't think that mild measured spanking is worse than many other parenting practices. My own view is that emphasis should be placed on parent education rather than blaming people for following what my son wisely terms "outdated" parenting practices. It always shocked me that they spent countless classes teaching me how to have a baby, and zero classes teaching me what to do once the baby got home.
Education, in my opinion, is the answer. If you give parents alternative ways to bring up well-disciplined kids, spanking will decrease. Attacking spanking without education just leads to other problems.
Posted by mbrational on July 12, 2012, at 14:13:24
In reply to Re: Re Instead.... » mbrational, posted by Dinah on July 12, 2012, at 13:43:01
I agree with some of your points but even though education would improve things I still think there is more to this than that.
If people would be in touch with their feelings especially those feelings they were not allowed to feel (and which they didn`t allow themselves to feel) as children when they were beaten etc. they wouldn`t cut off their ability to emphasize. Then they wouldn`t have to be educated about this, they simply wouldn`t WANT to beat their children. They would use their phantasy to come up with other and better solutions, beating would not be an alternative.Markus
Posted by SLS on July 12, 2012, at 17:18:56
In reply to Re: Re Instead...., posted by SLS on July 11, 2012, at 7:05:02
> > It is so typical for children who were abused physically (and yes smacking is physical abuse and emotional abuse too because it is so humilating)) to justify their parents behavior as they grow up. And as they think it didn`t hurt them they think they have the right to do the same to their own children and so the vicious circle continues and another generation gets involved. I think its particularly disgusting when those people become teachers.
> >
> > Markus
>
>
> I think the induction of a major mental illness is a multifactorial phenomenon for which childhood physical abuse, corporal punishment, and neglect can be contributing, although not sufficient, variables. For some people, they are not contributors at all. The article being referred to seems to indicate that there are phenomenological differences between physical abuse and physical punishment.And what about developmental PTSD?
Well, it's good that this stuff be looked at more closely and scientifically. Taking out the guesswork might help resolve what's best for children and adults both.
- Scott
Posted by SLS on July 12, 2012, at 17:33:48
In reply to Re: Re Instead.... » SLS, posted by SLS on July 12, 2012, at 17:18:56
> And what about developmental PTSD?
http://www.positivehumandevelopment.com/developmental-ptsd.html
- Scott
Posted by Phillipa on July 12, 2012, at 19:05:19
In reply to Re: Re Instead.... » SLS, posted by SLS on July 12, 2012, at 17:33:48
I guess that is what emotionally saved me with emotional abuse the knowing that it was the medication my Mother was on that caused the temper tantrums she had and borderline behavior in yelling at me, blaming me, then saying she loved me. Pdocs have said the abandonment issues are my problem. As never knew when returned home if there would be an ambulence taking Mother to hospital for an addrenal crisis. I rationally know I didn't make her sick as she acused me. I just swore I'd always look at the positives that my own kids did and praise it and not focus on negative. Evidently this worked as all three are very independant now and happy with jobs or disabled as my Son but with his own family. Oh one slap to thigh for each kid when their lives endangered as walking into the street as a toddler. As babies never had any terrible twos. No idea why their genes and personalities I guess. And being home with them all. Phillipa
Posted by linkadge on July 13, 2012, at 11:24:57
In reply to Re: Re Instead...., posted by mbrational on July 12, 2012, at 1:57:13
>I was a pest,
>I was a brat,
>I deserved it,
>It was a totally justified smacked,
>I prefer my punishment quick."
The truth of the matter is that. I *was* a pest (at the time), I *was* a brat (at the time), I did diserve it and yes the spaking was *totally* justified.And finally, I did (and still do) much *much* prefer a quick punishment than a prolonged one.
If I stole a television today, I would **much** prefer a Sinapore style 50 whacks with a cane, than a year in prison.
Linakdge
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