![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 7 to 31 of 31. Go back in thread:
Posted by ed_uk2010 on April 23, 2010, at 14:06:58
In reply to Nardil failing - bedridden, depressed, suicidal ed, posted by Enigma on April 22, 2010, at 15:08:07
Hi Enigma,
I didn't see the other major MAOI, isocarboxazid (Marplan) on your list. Have you tried it?
It has been claimed to cause somewhat milder adverse effects than Nardil, although I'm not sure whether or not this is actually the case. Still, I'm sure it would be useful to try it.
Posted by Enigma on April 23, 2010, at 18:17:31
In reply to Re: Nardil failing - bedridden, depressed, suicidal ed, posted by ed_uk2010 on April 23, 2010, at 14:06:58
> Hi Enigma,
>
> I didn't see the other major MAOI, isocarboxazid (Marplan) on your list. Have you tried it?
>
> It has been claimed to cause somewhat milder adverse effects than Nardil, although I'm not sure whether or not this is actually the case. Still, I'm sure it would be useful to try it.
>
>Yes, a few years ago, I believe I tried Marplan. I also tried Parnate (which really didn't agree with me) and Selegiline. Sel. works ok but fizzled out really quickly. Now Nardil is pooping out. I've had severe insane crying/suicidal days on Nardil as if I didn't even take it. Scares the hell out of me. Those days are brutal, as anyone who's had one would know. I forgot how well Marplan worked, but I don't think it was as effective as Nardil.
I've been taking Nardil, which seems like forever, and I still suffer from the inability to cool your body down that it causes, and the insomnia. So I take drugs to get to sleep too. I still wake up several times in the middle of the night too. Now I think I have some bladder issue I have to address.I still have to lose 20 pounds that various atyp. antip. gave me. I hate how I look. I had a flat gut 6 months ago.
Posted by Enigma on April 23, 2010, at 18:30:32
In reply to Re: Nardil failing - bedridden, depressed, suicidal ed, posted by stargazer2 on April 23, 2010, at 9:05:29
> There are a few drugs you can take with Nardil but your doc would have to agree to doing this. What does your doc say about your situation? Has it gotten significantly worse in the last few weeks or is this your baseline?
My depression has ramped up (got worse) mostly in the last 2 years. Not only do I have the chemical depression (depression for no reason), I have some situational reasons, like a rocky marriage, (long story), my fault, that just got added to my life recently. We're also almost out of our savings, which means, no more dream house, until my wife can work. If I'm on 2 drugs that don't cause major side effects, I have the energy to work, but my doc and I have failed at finding a good mix of anything that is compatible with my body. I suffer most side-effects of most drugs while I know other people on the same drugs that take them like aspirin. Frustrating!
>
> Let's see...on Nardil you can take a few things, such as Wellbutrin (not all docs will prescribe with Nardil), tricyclics (except clomipramine), Remeron, modafinil (Provigil), many of the anti psycotics..but overall you are limited with what can be added to Nardil, that is the dilemma I am currently facing.Tricyclics turn me into a violent monster. Literally. They are extremely dangerous for me to take. I have no control over my temper or violence I may inflict. We gave up after trying 2-3 of them. We tried just about all atyp. antipsychotics. Some worked on my mood but the weight gain or diskenesia were too much to deal with. Tried provigil too, don't remember it helping in any way.
Just tried Topamax again because the first time I took it, I lost all the extra weight that Seroquel put on (over time). But I took it now, and the generic, and it causes the worst bloating and gas you can even imagine. I don't understand why it causes this effect. It also causes hangover type effects. I was praying it would work so I could slowly lose all this extra weight. I think my GI system is severely broken anyway.
>
> Are you currently working with your doc to try anything else?
>
> It is extremely frustrating as depression is one of the hardest things to figure out, if ever...it is just trying new things and hoping something works.Tell me about it. I'm sick and tired of the whole cycle of trying this or that, just to suffer worst, and wash, rinse, repeat.
>
> Wishing you well or some improvement. Usually depression rises and falls and sustained thoughts of suicide usually resolve themselves. I took Seroquel one time when my thoughts got very dark and I thought I might do something rash. It definately put an end to the thoughts. Sometimes that's all you can do.Thanks. To you as well. My life would have turned out so different it wasn't for this accursed disorder. I'm just lucky I'm still here. I came REAL close to ending it more than a few times, and during my manic road rage days, I'm amazed I came out alive.
Posted by Bob on April 23, 2010, at 21:56:17
In reply to Re: Nardil failing - bedridden, depressed, suicidal ed, posted by Enigma on April 23, 2010, at 8:11:04
> I have tried ECT at two different hospitals, no help.
>What were your ECT treatments like, i.e. number of treatments, bipolar, unipolar, etc? Did they have any effect whatsoever? Did they temporarily help, or maybe destabilize you and make you worse?
Posted by bulldog2 on April 24, 2010, at 11:15:15
In reply to Nardil failing - bedridden, depressed, suicidal ed, posted by Enigma on April 22, 2010, at 15:08:07
> ed = every day
>
> I need *anyones* advice here, I am going to post this long list of drugs I've tried along with what effects most of them had.
>
> Like the title says. I hate life and I want to die. I'm 41, have 3 kids, am on disability and have a wife that wants a divorce because my manic side went off on her one day (verbally) and so forth. So I'm lonely as hell, because I was in a loveless marriage (she was in love with me and I was never in love with her, but another manic bad decision was to get married. We actually lasted 17 years. Not I can't get a women because what attractive woman is going to date a soon? to be divorced guy with 3 kids, no job, depressed as hell, and no money? No one.
>
> Anyway, if it wasn't for the kids, I'd kill myself today. My friends ALL suck, and that's the *nicest* way I can possibly put it.. a group of compassionless blankety-blanks. That's to them, I have 0 social life - I had one when I worked, but got laid of for being sick with the bipolar. Tried to keep in touch, but they all alienated me after I lost my job.
>
> So, besided having the chemical, everything in my life could be going great but I'm still miserably depressed depression, I now have the lonliness, friendlessness, 0 social life, etc, to add on top of it.
>
> So Nardil used to work at keeping the suicidal thoughts at bay, but it is no longer working.
> I've unsuccessfully tried ALL of the atypical antipsychotics, where some made me feel much better mood-wise but had devastating side effects.
>
> Please look through this this and see if you can think of any drugs of drug I can take with nardil (nardil is the ONLY drug that at least, used to work for my mood).
>
> Here's the list. It's pretty big.
>
> Last Updated 04/20/10 (even listing old meds not previously listed)
>
> Blanket Statement about my drug/meds treatment:
>
> In general, most drugs I took apply for the following blanket statement:
> Most drugs were started at manufacturers recommended doses, and via following directions/dosages
>
> on "sample/starter packs", and/or doctors recommendations. Sample packs, etc were almost always
>
> used first, if they existed. If no serious side effects occurred, the dosage was moved up slowly
>
> over time to manufacturers recommended maintenance dosage. Many drugs were taken for about 3-9
>
> weeks, or much longer for some and discontinued if side effects became intolerable, or no
>
> noticeable AD/anti-mania effect was felt, or the drug "pooped out" over many months of use.
> Note: Almost all drugs had some mild to heavy (usually intolerable) side effects (usually 2-4
>
> different side effects). Many were similar, and many I cannot recall in detail for each
>
> particular drug. Usually, side effects consisted of dizzyness, light headedness, headaches, out
>
> of touch with reality/other worldly feeling, zombie like feeling, nausea, increased sweating,
>
> anorgasmia, other sexual dysfunction, fatigue (usually severe and most common of all drugs),
>
> insomnia, too much sleep, lack of feeling refreshed from sleep, nightmares, inability to stay
>
> asleep, or to wake up, constant and frequent urination, night terrors - waking up kicking,
>
> punching, yelling, ending as soon as I woke, increased irritability/lack of patience, manic type
>
> feelings, etc.
>
> There were a few other side effects I can't recall at the moment - in general, if the drug
>
> information from the pharmacy listed possible side effects, I almost always suffered from many of
>
> them. I've been, in my opinion, very sensitive to the side effects of these meds, while many
>
> other people who take these drugs, feels little to no side effects (data derived from message
>
> boards of people posting about their experience with these drugs and people I knew who are on
>
> some of these meds or have taken them)
>
> Note: any dates listed are taken from prescription fill dates from the bottles I still have.
>
> Entire range of dosage(s) not listed/cannot recall.
>
> Abilify 10mg - Took in early/mid 2008+2009 worked well for manic symptoms, especially
>
> irritability. Side effects - head, shoulder, etc, twitching. Didnt want dyskinesia to become
>
> permanent
>
> Ambien 04/2010 not very effective, took wih tynelol PM + Nardil, repeatedly woke up through
>
> the night. Did not get to sleep quickly.
>
> Ambien CR - 06/2006 - 12.5 mg x 1 per day - made me have wild dreams/mania and *caused* insomnia,
>
> dicontinued after 2 days
>
> Ativan - took this before switching to Klonopin as it pooped out - only took as needed, for
>
> anxiety
>
> Celexa/Citalopram(20mg) - 03/2006, 04/2006 - 20mg x 1 per day - recall nothing about
>
> effectiveness - most likely, 0 AD effect, discontinued
>
> Concerta ER 35 MG recall nothing about this drug, almost entire bottle depleted took with
>
> Nardil
>
> Cymbalta - Took for less than a week, caused a severe suicidal reaction I needed to be
>
> hospitalized for. Discontinued immediately, suicidal "drive" and uncontrollable crying stopped
>
> after discontinued.
>
> Depakote - Took in Combination with Wellbutrin for years to level me out - found out years later
>
> it was causing all my unexplained *severe* fatigue, so discontinued. Drug did help with
>
> irritability, road rage, etc.
>
> Effexor - Used starter pack - Discontinued after < 1-2 weeks, side effects were the worst of any
>
> drug, turned me into a zombie, became dizzy, light headed, dizzy, had nausea, took 6 MONTHS to
>
> rid the dizziness/nausea from my system - most likely withdrawal, even with tapering off slowly.
>
> Drug should be banned in my opinion.
>
> Emsam - highest dose (ending at 12mg/24hrs) - couldn't tolerate application site reactions - red,
>
> swollen, itchy rash - took lowest dose for 1 month - no AD effect, switched to highest dose for 2
>
> months. Pretty good AD effect (best I've had on a med? but could not tolerate the app. Site
>
> reactions.
>
> Both Emsam and Nardil cause sweating with almost no exertion (drinking coffee, being outside in
>
> sun, vacuuming a room), night sweats every night, severe insomnia - can barely sleep 3-4 hours in
>
> a row and still toss and turn, restless when I wake up - no sleep schedule - Eventually got used
>
> to Nardil enough? so that the insomnia mostly went away. Lunesta helped for a time, as well as
> Melatonin - Impromtu naps - can't stay awake, 1-2 a day - No energy all day, fatigue - Mood was
>
> better with Emsam, Nardil it is moderate
>
> Fanapt (iloperidone)1 mg (2009) dykisesia side effects took with Nardil
>
> Geodon Taking in combination with Nardil good med for manic symptoms, do not drink alcohol on
>
> this medication no side effects to mention, possibly locking my weight at a certain amount.
>
> (6/3/2009) may have caused dyskinesia stopped for *some* reason
>
> Klonopin 2-4mg, taken as needed to deal with random bouts of anxiety, stress, lack of sleep,
>
> etc. Has helped a great deal with anxiety in general. No real side effects besides fatigue.
>
> It currently helping with sleep (2mg) with Geodon and Nardil. (6/3/2009)
>
> Lamictal - 09/2004, 10/2006 - Last bottle I have shows 100mg/2x day - Lamictal Update -
>
> prescribed again around 10/2006 - read my journal, and it guesses that Lamictal might have been
>
> making me more depressed. No idea if this is true or not. Not even sure why it was prescribed.
>
> Was taking Nardil at the same time.. had complaints of sweating, severe insomnia, and daytime
>
> fatigue.
>
> Lexapro - Used starter pack - Discontinued with 1-2 weeks? or less. Side effects intolerable.
>
> Became too tired, zombie-like, etc, unable to function at all. Couldn't think or concentrate.
>
> Lithium/Eskalith - 08/2005 - 450/x2 day - only took for a few days to augment Nardil - found side
>
> effects like dizzyness and nausea unbearable. Discontinued quickly. Overall total fatigue as
>
> well took with Nardil 2nd time
>
> Lunesta - 5/2006 - 3mg x 1 per day - was working for sleep, pooped out quickly
>
> Mirtazapine 15 MG 2009 - recall nothing about this drug.
>
> Nardil - 11/2005, 07/2006, 9/2006, 11/2006 (to current 4/2010+)- Currently taking for the past
>
> 5+? months at 45mg per day, also tried 60mg from time to time, then to 90mg, usually found side
>
> effects intolerable - had the best antidepressant effect as any drug I've tried, but side effects
>
> are severe. Usually constant fatigue, frequent sweating, especially in summer or after small
>
> exertion, frequent urination or difficulity urinating (latter could be seroquel), completely
>
> broken sleep cycle - insomnia, where I can't sleep some nights until 4-6 AM, as well as random
>
> bout of bringing me almost unconscious with fatigue, requiring immediate nap, usually occurring
>
> when I am sitting down. Frequent urination, several times a night, inorgasmia, dizziness,
>
> especially if getting up from a sitting down position. Night terrors, waking up yelling, kicking,
>
> punching, etc. Sometimes can't stop dreaming about the same dream. Sleeping not restful, nor
>
> consistent no matter how hard I try. Sleeping pills prescribed to help, but have had very little
>
> positive effect. 45mg seems too low as depression starts to return, but 60mg usually makes the
>
> above side effect worse, and intolerable. Update - tried to continue Nardil 2 more times
>
> stopping due to side-effects, again, update: 10-08 now taking 90 mg a day mediocre AD side
>
> effects, anorgasmia, severe sweating with little physical effort, but no more fatigue or sleep
>
> waves.
>
> Neurontin 300-600mg depression seemed worse, horrible upper GI problems took with Nardil
>
> Parnate - 06/2005 - Ended at 40mg to day, tried right before Nardil, continued for 1-2 months.
>
> Almost exact same effects and symptoms as Nardil, but on a worse scale, making it intolerable to
>
> take - Forced to discontinue. Felt no AD effect. Started again on 3/16/08 generated mostly
>
> fatigue, but I believe it helped the depression more that most any other drug. Not sure why I
>
> felt no AD effects the first time I tried it. Taken in combination with Abilify (15mg/day) and
>
> Seroquel (200mg/night).
>
> Paxil - Used starter pack, Same experience with Zoloft
>
> Procardia - 06/2005 - 10mg - as needed for hypertensive crisis
>
> Prozac - 02/2005 - Used starter pack, then moved gradually to 40mg/2x day over a few months?
>
> Caused severe anxiety that other meds could not counteract, at highest dose taken (lower doses
>
> has no AD effect) - Some antidepressant effect felt, but ended up causing severe anxiety that
>
> other meds were prescribed to prevent such as Ativan and Klonpin. Anti anxiety drugs could not
>
> keep up with severe anxiety, had to discontinue Prozac.
>
> Restoril - 06/2005 - 15mg x 1-2 day for insomnia - don't remember it working
>
> Risperdal - 05/2005 - 2mg/day, Helped with depression for a while, possibly 4-6 months, then
>
> pooped out, discontinued. Took in combination with WB usually Took with Nardil, 2nd time
>
> Saphris- 11/10/09 gained 15 pounds in 1 week, horrible sweating problems Took with Nardil,
>
> also quit in one week. Now I'm 35 pounds overwieght, just from meds.
>
> Selegeline - Worked on depression for certain amount of time (max dose) then pooped out, switched
>
> back to Nardil
>
> Seroquel - 01/2006 - 25mg x 1 every 4 hours as needed - remember being too tired the next day.
>
> Tried 100mg+ at night to help me sleep (11/20/07) - same side effect - pretty drained the entire
>
> next day. At 300mg it was like taking a sleeping pill but, has serious side effects. On 3-4
>
> occasions when taken before going to bed, had complete disorientation and lost of muscle control
>
> in my legs. Literally had to *crawl* to the bedroom. When out on Seroquel, you would usually
>
> be out cold, which was very dangerous if the family needed me for something in the middle of the
>
> night. Taken in combination 01-02/2008 with Abilify, Selegiline, Vivactil, and Parnate (not all
>
> drugs at once). Like Abilify, it does work very well to lessen manic symptoms. - (6/3/2009)
>
> gained 40 pounds on this medication!
>
> Serzone - 04/2007 - taken for 1.5 months, max dose 700 mg. Each 100 mg increase seemed to
>
> provide AD effects, but they only lasted 1-3 days. Quit at 700mg as it didn't seem to provide
>
> any sustained AD effect. No notable side-effects to speak of.
>
> Strattera - 40mg bottle still exists/not sure how many pills a day, do not recall why I took
>
> this, possibly anti-mania, and to level me out?
>
> Symbyax - Used starter pack, then had been taking 6/25, 6/50, 12/50 (x1/day), do not recall how
>
> many pills per day on other dosages - Similar to Prozac experience, but not as much anxiety. Has
>
> some antidepressant effect, then pooped out after some months, so discontinued - possibly other
>
> side effects I don't recall.
>
> Tranylcypromine Sulfate 10 mg (same as Parnate?) quit almost immediately
>
> Trileptal - 12/2003, 03/2004 - Last bottle I have shows 600mg/2x day - do not recall anything
>
> about this drug - maybe anti-mania, or to level me out. Found another bottle - 300mg 4x a day -
>
> judging by the amount I have left, I must have given up on this med pretty quickly. Might be
>
> worth trying again. Started again 11/27 (200 mg 1st dose).
>
> Topamax - 12/2006, 01/2007, 03/2007 - 25mg x 2 a day, later 100mg x 1 per day - no positive
>
> effect noted, except for weight loss, and had to discontinue due to have no appetite at all.
>
> Worked the first time I tried it, but not the 2nd time (for weight loss - trying again 4-22-10,
>
> real version, tried genertic and has a host a awful GI side-effects, like having a terrible
>
> hangover - headache, stomach ache, etc.
>
> Vivactyl - 12/2006 - 5mg x 3x day - horrible side effects, severe irritability, rage, anger,
>
> discon. after 2-3 days
>
> Wellbutrin - Took for years(2-3?, first AD prescribed, around 2000?), ended with XL 450mg/day -
>
> Started with early versions and ended to extended release, 1-2 day type pills. No anti-depressant
>
> ever felt, only felt increased daily energy, which is what I took it for. Side effects consisted
>
> of heavy abnormal sweating, lack of appetite, and manic-type symptoms. Finally discontinued as
>
> "pooped out", no longer gave me energy.
>
> Xanax - 03/2005 - .5mg x 3x day - Took for anti-anxiety - remember some side effects or no med
>
> effect - K-pin works better
>
> Zoloft - Used starter pack, ended with 2x50mg/day? Unable to recall. Dosage raised slowly,
>
> discontinued after 1-2 months, no anti-depressant effect was felt.
>
> Zyprexa - 08/2006, 12/2006, 01/2007 - 2.5mg x 1-2 day - taken for mania symptoms, caused fairly
>
> severe weight gain and severe increase in appetite, had to discontinue. Do not recall any
>
> positive effect. Last dose 5mg x 3x day.
>
>
> Well, there ya go. I hope one of you can help me.
> I've been diagnosed treatment resistant, bipolar II for 15-20 years now, and it's worse every year.
>
> Without ANY drugs in my system, I cry 4-5 times a day uncontrollably and almost need to be restrained so I won't go out and kill myself. The psychological pain is immeasurable and impossible to endure on any lengthly basis.
>
> Please help.
> -Enigma.
>Enigma
It sounds like you may have to compromise on some of the side effects. Your situation certainly sounds grave. In your list of meds it sounds like some of them were working and you d/c'd them because of sides mostly weight gain. Most of these meds cause weight gain. If you need meds this may a bad time to be obsessed with a flat gut. You certainly can diet and exercise. The nardil might work if you raised the dose because your dose is very low. Again the meds you require may cause weight gain. Do your best to diet and exercise but your first priorty is to feel well and get well enough to feel well. You can take the weight off later. Losing weight and needing the type of meds you need may just not be possible right now. Get better first. Up the nardil if possible. Good luck.
Posted by floatingbridge on April 24, 2010, at 17:06:23
In reply to Nardil failing - bedridden, depressed, suicidal ed, posted by Enigma on April 22, 2010, at 15:08:07
Enigma,
I'm so sorry--seems like everything is falling on you at once. BP II is really a tough illness to live with.
No med advice--I was wondering if you had a good psych to talk to or a therapist. Seems like you're being asked to deal with too much at once.
best to you.
Posted by bleauberry on April 24, 2010, at 18:48:26
In reply to Re: Nardil failing - bedridden, depressed, suicidal ed, posted by Enigma on April 23, 2010, at 18:30:32
This is a tough story. I mean, we all have some rough stories, but I can usually see some reasonable promising things to do. In your case I find myself thinking real hard. It's an unusually tough scenario. But here are some thoughts to share.
I do not believe making progress will happen if pills are the primary focus. In other words, it must be a comprehensive approach, where pills are merely one piece of a larger gameplan.
As for the pills, one of my doctors happens to deal with many patients who are very sensitive to drug side effects. They all happen to have Lyme. Not to get sidetracked, but have you ever been exposed to ticks? Forget the testing, doesn't work, long story, but just thought I would mention Lyme looks exactly like what you are describing. Doesn't mean it is, just worth mentioning in case no one else ever brought it up to you. Back on topic, sensitive patients are not only sensitive to the side effects, but to the therapeutic effects as well. Every heard of someone doing well on 1mg of lexapro? Well, my doctor does that kind of thing with success.
Here is a for-example: A potent all-around combo is zoloft+nortriptyline. You've probably been on both. But did you take them at the same time? Probably not. Did you take them at doses where adverse events did not happen? Probably not. Do you think a mere 12.5mg zoloft and 5mg nortriptyline can work? It can. Do you think 1mg lexapro instead of 10mg lexapro can work? It can.
I mention these real-life examples just to open your eyes to a whole new world out there that your doctor probably is not familiar with.
Food choices. Critical. Most doctors are not trained on the topic of candida, and many scoff at it. They say, "yeast cannot survive in a healthy individual"...the whole while not even considering the fact that you are obviously NOT healthy, something is VERY wrong?
Study the symptoms and behavior of candida overgrowth, and you will see yourself. The way you describe your symptoms and history actually fits the common scenario of several hidden unsuspected infections, Lyme and candida being the top contenders. They can look identical, they are great imposters in that they can mimic just about any psychiatric disease, and they look for all the world exactly like the rage, depression, and irritation you feel. The potent toxins they secrete in their normal lives wreak absolute havoc in our brains.
Back to food choices. For many people it is a choice. With you, I think not. I believe you must follow a strict pattern of eating that includes: mostly raw or slightly cooked veggies, avoiding starchy or sweet ones (avoid most root veggies); fruits, mostly just berries (frozen is cheap) because the others have too much sugar; modest amounts of lean meats, but spend the extra couple dollars for organic...maybe someone else has the elbowroom to deal with some accumulation of trace pesticides and herbicides and antibiotics, but you do not; lots of purified water; avoid most grains, especially wheat (gluten intolerance looks like depression, fatigue, and rage); avoid anything where barley malt is an ingredient (gluten again); rice is good; good fats come from avocadoes, nuts, and eggs (again, organic eggs, they only cost a buck more.), limit all sugars and avoid all artificial sugars except stevia; limit caffeine; eat all the raw garlic you can handle (extremely potent antimicrobial), a clove a day is a good start. Your plate at each meal should look like it is mostly veggies. After a couple months, your taste buds will prefer your new life. You won't want your old diet anymore. Cravings will be gone.
The reasons for eating this way are many. Eat for health, for healing, not for pleasure. We're talking candida, other infections, adrenal glands, blood sugar issues, on and on. The more load you can take off your body, the smoother you can make it work, the better your depression and rage and fatigue are going to get. The better any pills are going to work.
If your doctor is game, ask for a one week trial of 100mg/day diflucan. See if you have a Herx reaction. If you don't know what that is, it is massive die-off of candida. It is diagnostic, no tests needed. Do the same with Doxycycline for general infections including Lyme...200mg per day for 2 weeks to see what happens. The tests are unreliable and likely to pronounce you negative when you could very well be strongly positive. The Herx reaction, or amazing improvement, either way, are diagnostic.
I already had suspicions of candida to begin with, but when you spoke of the intestinal issues, that pretty much nailed it for me.
Do you have silver fillings in your teeth? If you do, hope not, it is your highest priority to get them out ASAP.
I hope this helps. A lot to think about. If you stay on the path of dwelling on pills as the only means to get better, I think the odds are not good.
As for the marriage, well, I'm no counselor, but start doing some stuff together. Even if totally fatigued and depressed, go window shopping at a mall, take a walk each evening, anything, just get some together time happening.
I have no idea of your religious stance, but the Bible is good. Even if you have no faith and no belief, pray to God each day. He doesn't ignore. I've never seen miracles myself, but I have seen lives gradually transformed in ways that were not humanly possible without some kind of superior force. But in all cases, it only happens when there is prayer.
Hope. That's the main thing. This post is all about that. I see lots of hope because I see lots of avenues that need to be explored, and all of them happen to have depression/rage/fatigue written all over them in big bold letters.
Posted by pedr on April 28, 2010, at 12:00:04
In reply to Nardil failing - bedridden, depressed, suicidal ed, posted by Enigma on April 22, 2010, at 15:08:07
Hi Enigma,
I'm very sorry that you are in such pain. No-one deserves to experience that.You're the only other person to report Nocturia (peeing 6, 7, 8 times a night) and night terrors on Nardil other than me (I posted here a while ago on it. I'm on 90mg). I used to wake up violently shaking, like there was an electrical current running through me for about 3 seconds and then it would stop. And I would always have a dream where at the end something would slam into my head from the side and I'd see it only at the last moment. It was usually a hard punch, a hard ball, a car or falling hard into the ground. I've thrown myself off the side of the bed and lashed out at my wife in reaction to these dreams! (I believe that is called REM Disorder, where you act out your dreams). All these SE's have gone now. However I am still +40lb and almost always weary. I fall asleep at work fairly regularly.
I have to say that your story scares me since if Nardil pooped out on me I'd be lost and would have to pray that another MAOI would help. I am just thankful for every day of stability that it gives me.
Regarding suggestions, have you thought of augmenting Nardil with Nortriptiline or Provigil? Have you tried taking vit B6 or its precursor (forget name)? Some report that that can increase Nardil's efficacy.
Best wishes,
Pete
Posted by Dan_MI on April 28, 2010, at 12:07:11
In reply to Nardil failing - bedridden, depressed, suicidal ed, posted by Enigma on April 22, 2010, at 15:08:07
I hope I don't offend anyone with this statement: No one should take Ativan, Xanax, Ambien, Lunesta or any of their cousins on a regular basis. Whenever I hear about someone having a hard time with their meds, they're usually on one of these extremely addictive drugs, drugs which actually make people depressed. Benzo's are so addictive, you could actually die if you go cold turkey.
If you're going to take benzo's, might as well use morphine to alleviate the depression you get from the benzo's, and then cocaine to counteract the fatigue.
Posted by floatingbridge on April 28, 2010, at 12:59:50
In reply to Re: Nardil failing - bedridden, depressed, suicidal ed, posted by Dan_MI on April 28, 2010, at 12:07:11
Dan, I don't see how your post is helpful to this thread. Many babblers rely on medications for stability and well-being that are contraindicated for long term use and have their doctor's permission.
Posted by pedr on April 28, 2010, at 14:14:53
In reply to Re: Nardil failing - bedridden, depressed, suicidal ed, posted by Dan_MI on April 28, 2010, at 12:07:11
> ...they're usually on one of these extremely addictive drugs, drugs which actually make people depressed. Benzo's are so addictive, you could actually die if you go cold turkey.
Benzo's were initially labelled addictive and dangerous due to massive over-prescription in the 1950's and have since been deemed dangerously addictive ever since. However, this widely-held belief is being challenged in recent years. The PDocs I've worked with have all said that benzo's are wrongly vilified and with supervision can be an excellent long-term, low-dose anxiolitic.
Personally I find that I feel depressed the following day when I take a benzo but many PDoc-supervised people on this board (and extrapolate that for the millions of people who are _not_ on PB) are doing well on such regimens. Therefore I think they "should" take them on a regular basis. Not that I would normally be presumptuous enough to be telling people what they "should" or "should not" do.
Pete
Posted by Bob on April 28, 2010, at 14:29:57
In reply to Re: Nardil failing - bedridden, depressed, suicidal ed » Dan_MI, posted by pedr on April 28, 2010, at 14:14:53
> > ...they're usually on one of these extremely addictive drugs, drugs which actually make people depressed. Benzo's are so addictive, you could actually die if you go cold turkey.
>
> Benzo's were initially labelled addictive and dangerous due to massive over-prescription in the 1950's and have since been deemed dangerously addictive ever since. However, this widely-held belief is being challenged in recent years. The PDocs I've worked with have all said that benzo's are wrongly vilified and with supervision can be an excellent long-term, low-dose anxiolitic.
>
> Personally I find that I feel depressed the following day when I take a benzo but many PDoc-supervised people on this board (and extrapolate that for the millions of people who are _not_ on PB) are doing well on such regimens. Therefore I think they "should" take them on a regular basis. Not that I would normally be presumptuous enough to be telling people what they "should" or "should not" do.
>
> PeteI have a significant anxiety component to my depressive disorder that is very hard to address with antidepressants for some reason. I have often found that during bad times there is no other class of drug to turn to that quickly tamps down anxiety and panic. Unfortunately I do think they exacerbate my depression and there is no doubt at least for me, that once I take them continuously for even as little as a few weeks it is very, VERY difficult to stop without experiencing rebound anxiety and worsening depression. Everyone is different.
Posted by SLS on April 28, 2010, at 14:43:33
In reply to Re: Nardil failing - bedridden, depressed, suicidal ed » pedr, posted by Bob on April 28, 2010, at 14:29:57
> Unfortunately I do think they exacerbate my depression
Which benzodiazepines do you think are the worst offenders? Personally, I had a depressive reaction to Klonopin, but not to Ativan or Xanax.
- Scott
Posted by floatingbridge on April 28, 2010, at 14:48:31
In reply to Re: Nardil failing - bedridden, depressed, suicidal ed, posted by SLS on April 28, 2010, at 14:43:33
Klonopin--depressive
Xanax ir --rollercoaster if taken too often
Xanax SR low dose is bestNot that you asked me.... ;)
Posted by Bob on April 28, 2010, at 14:55:06
In reply to Re: Nardil failing - bedridden, depressed, suicidal ed, posted by SLS on April 28, 2010, at 14:43:33
> > Unfortunately I do think they exacerbate my depression
>
> Which benzodiazepines do you think are the worst offenders? Personally, I had a depressive reaction to Klonopin, but not to Ativan or Xanax.
>
>
> - Scott
I am sensitive enough that I would say they are all eventually depressogenic for me. I dunno, maybe clonazepam is the worst but it's hard to come to a conclusion. Both Ativan and Xanax cause instability for me, presumably due to the shorter half lives. The causes are only speculatuion though.
Posted by Phillipa on April 28, 2010, at 20:27:19
In reply to Re: Nardil failing - bedridden, depressed, suicidal ed » SLS, posted by Bob on April 28, 2010, at 14:55:06
40 years later and lower doses than at beginning xanax has a mild antidepressant effect. Klonopin is depressing for me. Phillipa
Posted by floatingbridge on April 29, 2010, at 18:14:40
In reply to Re: Nardil failing - bedridden, depressed, suicidal ed, posted by Phillipa on April 28, 2010, at 20:27:19
Enigma, how are you doing?
fb
Posted by Enigma on May 1, 2010, at 9:20:32
In reply to Re: Nardil failing - bedridden, depressed, suicidal ed » Enigma, posted by pedr on April 28, 2010, at 12:00:04
> Hi Enigma,
> I'm very sorry that you are in such pain. No-one deserves to experience that.Thank you.
>
> You're the only other person to report Nocturia (peeing 6, 7, 8 times a night) and night terrors on Nardil other than me (I posted here a while ago on it. I'm on 90mg).Well, I've been on nardil for quite a long time, and the peeing at night, it's only about 3 times for me but I can seem to go until I push on my bladder! I don't think has anything to do with Nardil for me as these symptoms just started. I'm going to a Urologist this coming week. But, one of the side effects of Nardil is frequent urination, from what I remember.
> I used to wake up violently shaking, like there was an electrical current running through me for about 3 seconds and then it would stop. And I would always have a dream where at the end something would slam into my head from the side and I'd see it only at the last moment. It was usually a hard punch, a hard ball, a car or falling hard into the ground. I've thrown myself off the side of the bed and lashed out at my wife in reaction to these dreams!A couple months ago, I did go up to 90 mg of nardil which was definitely bad for me. I'm not sure if it was an increase in the med or another drug I was trying where I had the EXACT same symptoms. I would be walking in the mall, and get these electrical zaps all through my body where I would then lose balance and have to hold onto something. I would also have dreams where I would wake up, punching, kicking, blocking a punch or something, or being punched in the face. Talk about bizarre. My whole body would "jump" off the bed (but I didn't fall off the bed).
> (I believe that is called REM Disorder, where you act out your dreams). All these SE's have gone now. However I am still +40lb and almost always weary. I fall asleep at work fairly regularly.
I'm pretty tired all the time too, about +30 overweight, but not from Nardil, from atypical antipsychotics, and I can't lose the weight. I'm on a super low cal diet, and if I lose weight at all, one big meal, and I gain it ALL back. It doesn't make sense.
90mg of Nardil would also screw with my blood pressure. Every time I got up from a lying position, I would get a severe dizzy spell and need to hold onto the wall until it passed. It actually went away when we lowered the Nardil to 75mg.
>
> I have to say that your story scares me since if Nardil pooped out on me I'd be lost and would have to pray that another MAOI would help. I am just thankful for every day of stability that it gives me.I'm much better than I was when I posted the first message. Not crying, not suicidal, etc. Who knows why. It seems as if I didn't take Nardil for days, but I was on it. Maybe I just hit a real low.
>
> Regarding suggestions, have you thought of augmenting Nardil with Nortriptiline or Provigil? Have you tried taking vit B6 or its precursor (forget name)? Some report that that can increase Nardil's efficacy.I tried provigil and it didn't seem to have any effect on me at all. I don't think I tried Nortriptiline but it sounds familiar.
>
> Best wishes,
> PeteThanks man.
Posted by Enigma on May 1, 2010, at 9:24:57
In reply to Re: Nardil failing - bedridden, depressed, suicidal ed, posted by Dan_MI on April 28, 2010, at 12:07:11
> I hope I don't offend anyone with this statement: No one should take Ativan, Xanax, Ambien, Lunesta or any of their cousins on a regular basis. Whenever I hear about someone having a hard time with their meds, they're usually on one of these extremely addictive drugs, drugs which actually make people depressed. Benzo's are so addictive, you could actually die if you go cold turkey.
>
> If you're going to take benzo's, might as well use morphine to alleviate the depression you get from the benzo's, and then cocaine to counteract the fatigue.What about Klonopin? I've been taking that (as needed, not on a regular basis) for ages. But, I'm not addicted to it. I can stop anytime. I do take Ambien (the generic) (I think) every single night though! I remember a doc saying this was bad to take for long periods of time, but I forgot all about it. I'm an insomniac thanks to Nardil, so I need Ambien and I take an over the counter sleeping med to help me sleep, otherwise, I have horrible insomnia and hypersomnia? - can't stay asleep, if that's the right word for it.
Posted by Enigma on May 1, 2010, at 9:32:42
In reply to Re: Nardil failing - bedridden, depressed, suicidal ed » pedr, posted by Bob on April 28, 2010, at 14:29:57
> > > ...they're usually on one of these extremely addictive drugs, drugs which actually make people depressed. Benzo's are so addictive, you could actually die if you go cold turkey.
> >
> > Benzo's were initially labelled addictive and dangerous due to massive over-prescription in the 1950's and have since been deemed dangerously addictive ever since. However, this widely-held belief is being challenged in recent years. The PDocs I've worked with have all said that benzo's are wrongly vilified and with supervision can be an excellent long-term, low-dose anxiolitic.
> >
> > Personally I find that I feel depressed the following day when I take a benzo but many PDoc-supervised people on this board (and extrapolate that for the millions of people who are _not_ on PB) are doing well on such regimens. Therefore I think they "should" take them on a regular basis. Not that I would normally be presumptuous enough to be telling people what they "should" or "should not" do.
> >
> > Pete
>
>
>
> I have a significant anxiety component to my depressive disorder that is very hard to address with antidepressants for some reason. I have often found that during bad times there is no other class of drug to turn to that quickly tamps down anxiety and panic. Unfortunately I do think they exacerbate my depression and there is no doubt at least for me, that once I take them continuously for even as little as a few weeks it is very, VERY difficult to stop without experiencing rebound anxiety and worsening depression. Everyone is different.Klonopin, not sure what class it is in, helps me relax when I'm "freaking out" with anxiety. I noticed it makes me tired, but that's ok, because when I use it, I usually take a nap afterwords. I don't "think" I've every noticed my depression getting worse after using it. The way my moods change (I should say, the extreme frequency that my mood can sometimes change), it's hard to tell if Klonopin was actually the culprit.
Posted by Enigma on May 1, 2010, at 9:39:31
In reply to Re: Nardil failing - bedridden, depressed, suicidal ed, posted by Phillipa on April 28, 2010, at 20:27:19
> 40 years later and lower doses than at beginning xanax has a mild antidepressant effect. Klonopin is depressing for me. Phillipa
I've been kinda depressed for a while now, but after the other posts I've read, including this one, I need to test (somehow) if Klonopin depresses me. I don't remember feeling any worse after taking my somewhat high dose of 4mg, but like I said before, with me, it would be hard to tell what's causing the depressing. Besides the bipolar disorder that causes the worst of it, I have current personal problems, a good number of them, that are causing me to feel horrible lately. It's hard to take "both" types of depression at the same time. (chemical, and situational, as I like to label them).
I actually call myself "Cosmic Joke".
Posted by Enigma on May 1, 2010, at 9:55:16
In reply to Re: Nardil failing - bedridden, depressed, suicida, posted by floatingbridge on April 29, 2010, at 18:14:40
> Enigma, how are you doing?
>
> fbThanks for asking.
For the last week or more, I've been fairly good, well, good in relative terms for a bipolar sufferer. I haven't been crying or sleeping all day, but, still getting fairly depressed here and there and taking long naps, or going to bed at 6pm-8pm, just cause I can't find enjoyment in doing anything else. Sometimes I still get up, eat something, then go right back to bed.
But the suicidal thoughts are gone, well, at least most of them, and no my crying spells, for now, I know they will be back again someday.
The cruel joke is that some days I feel like I could work again, but then the next day, unexpectantly (sp?) I go downhill, and that nixes that idea. My constant up/down shifts keep me from having a "normal" life, and as a family, we desperately need the money my software engineering career (now dead) used to bring in.
I basically feel like an 80 year old man these days. Except, I still enjoy going out at night, but I have no friends that are available to do this with. It's tough at 40 to act like you're 20-30, which I still like to do. There's not much else I really enjoy doing, anymore. Video games on my PC kill some time, and watching movies at home when I can get in the mood.
For some reason, I don't like doing anything by myself. I always want someone with me to watch a movie, play video games, go shopping, etc. It's like I have this fear of being alone, or I know when I'm alone and not talking to someone, the depression is much worse. When I spend time with people I like, I don't think of my depression as much. It's hard for me to get into a car and go to the mall by myself. Now that my marriage is failing, I try to drag one of my kids with me, but not my wife anymore. I have no best friend to speak of, and that hurts A LOT. I need male bonding time, but every guy I know is "too busy", giving me every excuse in the book why they can't hang out. It's really depressing going through life without anyone to talk to, especially about how I'm feeling.
Again, thank you, mr. complete stranger, for asking the question that alludes ALL the friends I've had in years. Not one (no lie) has asked how my illness is going... sad.
Posted by pedr on May 1, 2010, at 11:17:21
In reply to Re: Nardil failing - bedridden, depressed, suicida, posted by Enigma on May 1, 2010, at 9:55:16
> Again, thank you, mr. complete stranger, for asking the question that alludes ALL the friends I've had in years. Not one (no lie) has asked how my illness is going... sad.
I'm hearing that. One or two of my pre-depression friends were willing to engage me about it and ask about it, learn about it. I can even have fun with it with them since it's in the open and they know I try hard to get better. The rest just ostrich it and have drifted away. A very, very saddening reflection upon humankind.
Pete
Posted by pedr on May 1, 2010, at 11:18:23
In reply to Re: Nardil failing - bedridden, depressed, suicidal ed, posted by Enigma on May 1, 2010, at 9:20:32
Hi Engima,
> I tried provigil and it didn't seem to have any effect on me at all. I don't think I tried Nortriptiline but it sounds familiar.
provigil had no effect on me either. I spoke to my PDoc Thurs and he said to try 200mg. The problem for me is that I don't mind being moderately tired/stoned since my anxiety used to be so intense. However, predicting when I will fall asleep at my desk is impossible. One week it will happen repeatedly and the next not at all. Don't get it.
Nortiptiline is often used to augment Nardil. I'm no doc but if I were in your shoes I'd ask about it.
> I'm much better than I was when I posted the first message. Not crying, not suicidal, etc. Who knows why. It seems as if I didn't take Nardil for days, but I was on it. Maybe I just hit a real low.
Thank goodness. I know how you feel now though. You have that "I'm just not in control. That crash will happen again at some point and there's nothing I can do about it". I've crashed about 5 times since being on Nardil. The crashes have varied from feeling completely sad and just watching TV for 4 days to strongly wanting to be dead for a few days - everything around me being black, forbidding, terrifying and empty. I actually used the phrase to my wife and PDoc "It's as if Nardil has left the building". But after 3-4 days I "come up" again. I have no idea why this is and it is pretty f****** distressing.
Perhaps the only positive is that we both know that the dark crashes are finite in duration.> I'm pretty tired all the time too, about +30 overweight, but not from Nardil, from atypical antipsychotics, and I can't lose the weight. I'm on a super low cal diet, and if I lose weight at all, one big meal, and I gain it ALL back. It doesn't make sense.
Hmmm well that's not good news for me. I look like I've strapped a bed pillow to my belly. I've had to buy an entire new wardrobe including belts and boxers! People ask if I'm pregnant... (I'm not) I saw a dietician and she recommended veg, high protein, fruit, lower carbs and no bagels <sob, sob>. I was extremely apprehensive to change my diet since I have IBS-C which, upon eating the wrong food or drink, can result in days of incapacitating abdominal pain. However so far so good. I think the Nardil has helped make my gut less sensitive to fruit, meat and some dairy which is great. My first yoghurt in 5 years!
Best,
Pete
Posted by floatingbridge on May 3, 2010, at 21:25:39
In reply to Re: Nardil failing - bedridden, depressed, suicida, posted by Enigma on May 1, 2010, at 9:55:16
M> > Enigma, how are you doing?
> >
> > fb
>
> Thanks for asking.
>
> For the last week or more, I've been fairly good, well, good in relative terms for a bipolar sufferer. I haven't been crying or sleeping all day, but, still getting fairly depressed here and there and taking long naps, or going to bed at 6pm-8pm, just cause I can't find enjoyment in doing anything else. Sometimes I still get up, eat something, then go right back to bed.> But the suicidal thoughts are gone, well, at least most of them, and no my crying spells, for now, I know they will be back again someday.
>
> The cruel joke is that some days I feel like I could work again, but then the next day, unexpectantly (sp?) I go downhill, and that nixes that idea. My constant up/down shifts keep me from having a "normal" life, and as a family, we desperately need the money my software engineering career (now dead) used to bring in.
>
> I basically feel like an 80 year old man these days. Except, I still enjoy going out at night, but I have no friends that are available to do this with. It's tough at 40 to act like you're 20-30, which I still like to do. There's not much else I really enjoy doing, anymore. Video games on my PC kill some time, and watching movies at home when I can get in the mood.
>
> For some reason, I don't like doing anything by myself. I always want someone with me to watch a movie, play video games, go shopping, etc. It's like I have this fear of being alone, or I know when I'm alone and not talking to someone, the depression is much worse. When I spend time with people I like, I don't think of my depression as much. It's hard for me to get into a car and go to the mall by myself. Now that my marriage is failing, I try to drag one of my kids with me, but not my wife anymore. I have no best friend to speak of, and that hurts A LOT. I need male bonding time, but every guy I know is "too busy", giving me every excuse in the book why they can't hang out. It's really depressing going through life without anyone to talk to, especially about how I'm feeling.
>
> Again, thank you, mr. complete stranger, for asking the question that alludes ALL the friends I've had in years. Not one (no lie) has asked how my illness is going.
.. sad.Enigma, glad to hear you're having some better days--and that 'the thoughts' as I call them are absent. They're a good mood indicator for me. Have you changed anything in your meds?
Most people have no idea what depression, BP and other mental illnesses are like. How does one describe pain? Especially when there isn't an open wound to point to and say, see where the car struck me?. And maybe, like many of us, we look better than we feel.
Maybe you could consider marital counseling--tough to consider when you're depressed. Seems like, I know I said this, you have too much on your plate--more than anyone deserves at one time.
You have some friends at babble.
Take care
This is the end of the thread.
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