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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 17 of 17. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Sunbath on October 24, 2009, at 7:47:29
Hi all!
I'd really like to know what you think.
The last 4-5days for me while still ok haven't been nearly as good as the first 2-3 weeks on 40mg/day (after I increased from 20mg).
The effects I felt initially were like a little buzz. I was even wondering if I was feeling high (not really, but it was heading that direction). They appeared when after being on 20mg for over a week and the full daytime sedation had finally left me, I suddenly increased to 40mg/day. Out of a sudden I felt really great! I lost ALL my anxiety, social and somatic, had much more energy (although feeling tired in the afternoon) and mood was MUCH better too.
Now the feeling I usually get after some hours after taking each dose is barely noticeable anymore and I feel some of the symptoms coming back at a low level.. somatic and social anxiety for example. It's difficult to tell though because since a few days I'm also trying to quit drinking. I'm no heavy drinker but I got used to drinking 2-4 beers/evening the last years. It made me much more confident socially and improved my mood. So it could partly be some withdrawal symptoms ( I get dependent really fast and notice some light withdrawal symptoms despite not drinking REALLY high doses of alcohol.. I noticed that many many times in the past when I (tried) quitting for a few days).
But despite that, I'm really afraid parnate could poop out. Did I only improve because of parnates acute effects, which weren't "true" antidepressant effects? It only took me 10days to feel sooo great. Isn't that quite suspicious?
Has the real "antidepressant" effect yet to come?I haven't been on Parnate longer than 1 month!To those who know that "buzz" like feeling: is this some kind of very low amphetamine effect? I mean in character? I know parnate has some amphetamine like properties but at such a low dose as 40mg?!? I thought that was impossible to notice?
I cannot believe it was the MAO inhibiting effect I felt after only 10days? What did I feel?2 days ago I tried 50mg and felt some more buzz again.. but I'm sure this will be transient as well?
Has anyone any recommendations as to when and how much I should increase my dose?It can't be correct to increase doses each time I grow tolerant to those acute effects can it? Or is there a level where this comfortable feeling won't pass? How much time should I give it at each dose in my case and what should I watch out for?
Thanks a lot for reading!!
I hope that some of you are able to enjoy this weekend.
Have a nice weekend all of you!
Posted by Phillipa on October 24, 2009, at 10:40:24
In reply to Parnate distinct diff.effects,acute and long term?, posted by Sunbath on October 24, 2009, at 7:47:29
Sunbath can't answer the question bad weather there too? Love and good luck Phillipa
Posted by Maxime on October 24, 2009, at 11:11:44
In reply to Parnate distinct diff.effects,acute and long term?, posted by Sunbath on October 24, 2009, at 7:47:29
I first felt the buzz the first time around at 10 mg. I felt it again a few times but I don't remember.
This time around I have yet to feel a buzz and I am disappointed. I am now at 60 mg. I guess no buzz for me. I miss it.
Posted by bulldog2 on October 24, 2009, at 11:40:07
In reply to Parnate distinct diff.effects,acute and long term?, posted by Sunbath on October 24, 2009, at 7:47:29
> Hi all!
>
> I'd really like to know what you think.
>
> The last 4-5days for me while still ok haven't been nearly as good as the first 2-3 weeks on 40mg/day (after I increased from 20mg).
>
> The effects I felt initially were like a little buzz. I was even wondering if I was feeling high (not really, but it was heading that direction). They appeared when after being on 20mg for over a week and the full daytime sedation had finally left me, I suddenly increased to 40mg/day. Out of a sudden I felt really great! I lost ALL my anxiety, social and somatic, had much more energy (although feeling tired in the afternoon) and mood was MUCH better too.
>
> Now the feeling I usually get after some hours after taking each dose is barely noticeable anymore and I feel some of the symptoms coming back at a low level.. somatic and social anxiety for example. It's difficult to tell though because since a few days I'm also trying to quit drinking. I'm no heavy drinker but I got used to drinking 2-4 beers/evening the last years. It made me much more confident socially and improved my mood. So it could partly be some withdrawal symptoms ( I get dependent really fast and notice some light withdrawal symptoms despite not drinking REALLY high doses of alcohol.. I noticed that many many times in the past when I (tried) quitting for a few days).
>
>
>
> But despite that, I'm really afraid parnate could poop out. Did I only improve because of parnates acute effects, which weren't "true" antidepressant effects? It only took me 10days to feel sooo great. Isn't that quite suspicious?
> Has the real "antidepressant" effect yet to come?I haven't been on Parnate longer than 1 month!
>
> To those who know that "buzz" like feeling: is this some kind of very low amphetamine effect? I mean in character? I know parnate has some amphetamine like properties but at such a low dose as 40mg?!? I thought that was impossible to notice?
> I cannot believe it was the MAO inhibiting effect I felt after only 10days? What did I feel?
>
> 2 days ago I tried 50mg and felt some more buzz again.. but I'm sure this will be transient as well?
>
> Has anyone any recommendations as to when and how much I should increase my dose?It can't be correct to increase doses each time I grow tolerant to those acute effects can it? Or is there a level where this comfortable feeling won't pass? How much time should I give it at each dose in my case and what should I watch out for?
>
> Thanks a lot for reading!!
>
>
> I hope that some of you are able to enjoy this weekend.
> Have a nice weekend all of you!Parnate or one of its metabolites functions as a stimulant type drug such as ritalin. This initial buzz or euphoria is often confused with its ad effect. This stim effect is not the ad effect and should not be confused with one. As with any stimulant one will build up tolerance to it and often will disappear completely.
Posted by metafunj on October 24, 2009, at 14:06:29
In reply to Re: Parnate distinct diff.effects,acute and long term? » Sunbath, posted by Maxime on October 24, 2009, at 11:11:44
One of the chemicals that Parnate keeps from metabolizing in the brain is PEA which is a dopamine releaser like amphetamine. It is possible you have gained a tolerance to these effects similar to the tolerance one can get to a stimulant. The question is do you feel worse or are you missing the high feeling.
Posted by Maxime on October 24, 2009, at 14:33:00
In reply to Re: Parnate distinct diff.effects,acute and long term? » Maxime, posted by metafunj on October 24, 2009, at 14:06:29
I never really cared about the high feeling. I just want the depression to away.
Posted by ColoradoSnowflake on October 24, 2009, at 15:43:08
In reply to Re: Parnate distinct diff.effects,acute and long term?, posted by Maxime on October 24, 2009, at 14:33:00
Maxime:
I'm so so glad you have gotten some sleep!! That will help everything!!Good luck,
hugs,
gayle
Posted by Maxime on October 24, 2009, at 15:58:54
In reply to Re: Parnate distinct diff.effects,acute and long term? » Maxime, posted by ColoradoSnowflake on October 24, 2009, at 15:43:08
Yes, I felt great but now I am getting tired again. I guess my body wants MORE! lol. I hope I start to feel better soon.
Posted by Sunbath on October 24, 2009, at 16:00:43
In reply to Re: Parnate distinct diff.effects,acute and long term?, posted by Maxime on October 24, 2009, at 14:33:00
Thanks for all your replies!
I'm certainly NOT looking for a high feeling. But I'd really like to STAY nearly symptom free though. That buzz was/is a side effect, but I wasn't running around full of euphoria or anything like that. I just had a nice calm feeling and didn't have any anxiety and had energy and a good mood. If this was just the effect of some kind of transient amphetamine like effect, it's really sad :(
I thought parnates amphetamine like effects wouldn't appear except on really REALLY high dosages..
Posted by Sunbath on October 24, 2009, at 16:02:07
In reply to Re: Parnate distinct diff.effects,acute and long term?, posted by Maxime on October 24, 2009, at 14:33:00
Maxime, you are sleeping finally? That's great!!!
Did the 4mg ativan do the trick?
Posted by Maxime on October 24, 2009, at 16:16:54
In reply to Re: Parnate distinct diff.effects,acute and long term? » Maxime, posted by Sunbath on October 24, 2009, at 16:02:07
> Maxime, you are sleeping finally? That's great!!!
> Did the 4mg ativan do the trick?It took 6 mg. But I slept for 12 hours. I still feel like I could go and lay down and sleep. Hopefully I will feel better in a couple of days.
Posted by ColoradoSnowflake on October 24, 2009, at 16:30:12
In reply to Parnate distinct diff.effects,acute and long term?, posted by Sunbath on October 24, 2009, at 7:47:29
Hi Sunbath:
I am happy to hear from you!! I've been wondering how you were doing!!First I want to reassure you, I really do NOT think the Parnate will "poop out" on you for a long long time....maybe years. My pdoc said he has seen it so few times it isn't worth mentioning. So don't let yourself worry about that!!!!!
Now, where you are now, was the really hard part for me. It was like riding a wild bucking bronco. I never knew how I was going to feel or how long it would last. I would feel good for a while...1/2 day? maybe a day? then I would feel terrible, at first the terrible was several days in a row, then a good day, maybe even a little buzz....then a bad time. I felt really bad a lot more than I felt good. This period was when my friends thought I was crazy to keep taking it. But when I felt good, I could feel that deep clarity and sense of well being. It made me believe that if I would just hang in there that it would come to stay.
I think this part doesn't happen to some people and that's great. It happened bad to me but I felt OK about it. I had this feeling that residues of all the other psychotropic drugs I have taken were getting cleared out of my brain. I felt it was a brain "housecleaning" period. A few times when I was asleep i had that whirring-shooting-buzzing thing in my head that I associate with coming off some drug. But I never felt anxious or suicidal. I went through that phase for a long time.Now, I don't have any of that. I feel good all the time. I am very level. I am sleeping better and better. I have started dreaming a LOT.
I was taking all my 70mg Parnate in the evening. As I felt better I started taking some Parnate during the day. Now I am spreading it out over the day and that is working well. I sort of think at this point I could probably take it anytime and it would be OK, but keeping it more regular in my bloodstream seems like a good thing to do.One thing I have surprised about Parnate is that for me it is Pro-Sexual. I hadn"t taken any drugs that I thought were bad that way before, but Parnate is WOW. I would recommend it for that aspect by itself! Have you had that also?
So I think at this point, 6 months for me, it is great. I feel what I would call "normal"!! It's really good!!
I kept increasing the Parnate every 5-7 days until I got to 80mg/day. I felt sort of "chemical" so I backed down to 70mg/day. I've tried 60mg and that just doesn't feel right. So I'm going to stick with 70mg.
The 25mg Nortriptyline I take in the evening. My pdoc wants me on it so that's fine. I go right to sleep because I'm tired because I've done so much during the day because I FEEL GOOD! Motivated and able to see things through easily!! I love it!
This is the best I've felt for 15 years since I had my big breakdown. Getting on Parnate has been a hard time, but it's worth it!!Sunbath, and Maxime, too, I hope this part of it isn't so long for you guys. I think I'm quite a bit older and that has probably added to the adjustment period.
I'm really glad I don't drink anymore. I had much more than my share during all those years of self-medicating with amphetamines and booze. The Parnate is doing a much better job!
Good luck and I hope the next phase is QUICK!
Hugs,
Gayle
Posted by floatingbridge on October 24, 2009, at 21:51:41
In reply to Re: Parnate distinct diff.effects,acute and long term? » Sunbath, posted by ColoradoSnowflake on October 24, 2009, at 16:30:12
Gayle,
Thanks so much for sharing your experience. I find it very helpful and encouraging.
warmly,
fb
Sunbath, hang in there!
Posted by Sunbath on October 26, 2009, at 7:14:55
In reply to Re: Parnate distinct diff.effects,acute and long term? » Sunbath, posted by ColoradoSnowflake on October 24, 2009, at 16:30:12
Hi Gayle!!
Thank you sooo much for your extremely positive and very encouraging post!
It's really giving me hope!
Thank you so much that you care :)> I think this part doesn't happen to some people and that's great. It happened bad to me but I felt OK about it. I had this feeling that residues of all the other psychotropic drugs I have taken were getting cleared out of my brain. I felt it was a brain "housecleaning" period. A few times when I was asleep i had that whirring-shooting-buzzing thing in my head that I associate with coming off some drug. But I never felt anxious or suicidal. I went through that phase for a long time.
You really had a rough time! Amazing that you had the power to stay on it for so long and absolutely GREAT that it payed you off :)
You must also have a really good pdoc who motivated you enough to get through that time!Is he treating many patients with MAOIs? And how old is she/he?
I don't have a pdoc who is experienced in MAOIs, which isn't good, but I never had a better one and I really doubt that there were many in my country who are experienced..
>
> Now, I don't have any of that. I feel good all the time. I am very level. I am sleeping better and better. I have started dreaming a LOT.Really really great, I wonder if this feels a bit like the effects I already noticed or if it's totally different!
> I was taking all my 70mg Parnate in the evening. As I felt better I started taking some Parnate during the day. Now I am spreading it out over the day and that is working well. I sort of think at this point I could probably take it anytime and it would be OK, but keeping it more regular in my bloodstream seems like a good thing to do.That sounds like a good idea, does that feel any different to you?How much do you take at once?
For me it's 30mg when I wake up and another 20mg around noon.> One thing I have surprised about Parnate is that for me it is Pro-Sexual. I hadn"t taken any drugs that I thought were bad that way before, but Parnate is WOW. I would recommend it for that aspect by itself! Have you had that also?
Do I understand you right?You never took any SSRI/SNRI before? Or do you mean they didn't have any negative effects on you in that regard?
I know my ex girlfriend had MUCH lower sex drive on effexor and escitalopram and was quite numb.
I myself hate SSRIs because of that.
Parnate is totally different for me, but it also lowered my sex drive considerably. Especially at the beginning. It's much better now and still improving I guess. It feels different though and isn't as numbing as any serotonergic drug I've taken before!
I heard that so often already that Parnate was Pro Sexual, but all who told me were women I think. Could it be that it has this effect in women but the opposite in men? Would be very interesting to know, but I guess it's just the usual: everyone's so different :)> So I think at this point, 6 months for me, it is great. I feel what I would call "normal"!! It's really good!!
I'm so glad!! You are one of the very few who finally managed to have success and I'd be honored to step in your toes :D
If your story doesn't motivate others not to give up I really don't know what would!
Thanks that you are still posting!!> I kept increasing the Parnate every 5-7 days until I got to 80mg/day. I felt sort of "chemical" so I backed down to 70mg/day. I've tried 60mg and that just doesn't feel right. So I'm going to stick with 70mg.
You were increasing the dose so fast from the beginning? Wow! But how did you know for example that 40mg wouldn't suffice back then? Now you know what dose does work for you best, but when starting Parnate.. how did you know? That's something I'd like to find out for myself. I really DON'T know what should be my target dose, when to increase it and how long to stay on a certain level. Did your pdoc tell you to get up to a certain "higher" dose?
Sad enough I cannot rely on my pdodcs advice on that matter, because she simply doesn't know and she's sticking to the rules completely. These are for example: 40mg is max. Can be increased to a maximum of 60mg, but only for inpatients!
That's ridiculous of course given that so many studies done used higher doses especially in TRD and that researchers didn't find any increased risk for serious side effects on higher doses (no increased risk of hypertensive reactions...).
Also I think my pdoc is a bit anxious, because I was responding so fast (after 10 days) and so complete. I guess that's not so common if you use conventional meds only ;)
Maybe she thinks I could get addicted or was in a hypomanic state or something.
I'll try to get an "official" approval taking a higher dose in a few weeks again :P
I understand now that the first weeks/months will be rough! That's totally ok and I accept it. It's just so strange and hard to believe that what I felt after 10days was something else since I had a complete response. I don't want to accept that this was only some amphetamine high :(
Now that I am on 50mg (increased from 40mg) for a few days I'm again feeling much better.
I'm feeling good (physically) without the inner tension and anxiety I always had the last years! My body feels so good, as if I was suddenly lighter by many kilos :D
I absolutely hope that the final, steady effect parnate would give me would address this inner tension feeling too and that I would get rid of it for years!
It's as if I was finally awaken from a bad dream that lasted for 8years+. I had forgotten how a "normal" body feeling felt like long ago it seems.
And that are only the somatic problems parnate got rid off so far.. I have much more energy when I wake up in the morning and am motivated to getting things done and most importantly mood is good most of the time OCD is non existent so far and the overall anxiety level is near zero.There's still that afternoon drowsiness problem though and yesterday when trying to learn something for a course, I found out that even when I'm not tired I'm having some memory problems including difficulty concentrating. This isn't good of course when learning..
I also cought me unusually often forgetting what I was about to do, or telling people things twice because I had forgotten that I already told them a few days ago. Is this normal? Did you experience that too at the beginning?This and the tiredness were bothering me so much that I went shopping yesterday getting very expensive Provigil. The Adrafinil will take another week to arrive and I thought it would be good to be able to compare those 2..
I only took 50mg because I wanted to be safe and it was already early in the afternoon. It didn't do much, but I noticed an energizing effect as I wasn't as tired as normal at around 5pm.
Today I slept only 6hours and took 100mg.. well let's see..>
> Sunbath, and Maxime, too, I hope this part of it isn't so long for you guys. I think I'm quite a bit older and that has probably added to the adjustment period.Thanks! I also hope that ;) But also if not, I'll hang in there..
> I'm really glad I don't drink anymore. I had much more than my share during all those years of self-medicating with amphetamines and booze. The Parnate is doing a much better job!Big congratulations!That's something many people fail to get rid off..
That's true for me too and I really really hope that Parnate helps me stay clean except the occasional beer when going out with friends..
Since it's as you say an attempt to self medicate, to cope with social situations and to feel good, it might work out.. just need to stop now. I think drinking alcohol regularily might also prevent Parnate from working at its fullest?What do you think? I once stumbled across a study showing that drinking alcohol during therapy with Parnate was associated with poorer outcome, but that might be true with any antidepressant and depression as an illness in general and not some particular effect with Parnate I think, but who knows..Thank you Gayle for all your support and the nice words!
I'm glad you're doing so well!
Good luck to you too! All the best! Enjoy life!!
Sunbath
Posted by ColoradoSnowflake on October 28, 2009, at 18:02:01
In reply to Re: Parnate distinct diff.effects,acute and long term? » ColoradoSnowflake, posted by Sunbath on October 26, 2009, at 7:14:55
> Hi Sunbath:
What a great post! It's very interesting to know just how the Parnate is affecting you. I think your (yoouthful) body is going to respond much much faster.. That's good! You need to be successful in school!!
I'll try to answer some of your questions.
You must also have a really good pdoc who motivated you enough to get through that time!Is he treating many patients with MAOIs? And how old is she/he?
I do have a really good pdoc. He is 70. He went through his residency here in colorado at the same time as Dr. Steven Dubovsky did, who is a nationally known expert in pharmacology and mood disorders. They have all been big on Parnate for all these years! My pdoc has also worked in an excellent psychiatric inpatient hospital here. I think this kind of experience gives him a lot of confidence with drugs other pdocs feel are scary.
> I don't have a pdoc who is experienced in MAOIs, which isn't good, but I never had a better one and I really doubt that there were many in my country who are experienced..
I think you can nicely give your pdoc a little education in MAOIs!
>
>
. I really DON'T know what should be my target dose, when to increase it and how long to stay on a certain level. Did your pdoc tell you to get up to a certain "higher" dose?Right at first I was SO afraid of Parnate! I took 10mg for a week, then 20mg. for a week, then 30mg. was where he wanted me to stay for a while. Then I wasn't afraid of it. He said I could increase it every 5 days up to 80mg. without calling him. So I did. 80 mg seemed kind of "chemical to me" 70mg seemed the best, and I'm not sure why. I didn't feel good at all except I had these patches of feeling really good which encouraged me to keep going.I think it's really hard to determine what the right dose is. I had read that it doesn't work for a lot of people because they don't take enough. So I kind of took as much as I could tolerate. Bulldog asked if there was a "sweet spot" for Parnate. I think there is, but you have to find it yourself!! I was way more worried about taking too little than I was about taking too much.
> I'll try to get an "official" approval taking a higher dose in a few weeks again :P
>
That's a good idea.
>
> I understand now that the first weeks/months will be rough! That's totally ok and I accept it. It's just so strange and hard to believe that what I felt after 10days was something else since I had a complete response. I don't want to accept that this was only some amphetamine high :(I don't think it was just an amphetamine high. I think it was just showing you it will be a good fit for you.
> Now that I am on 50mg (increased from 40mg) for a few days I'm again feeling much better.
> I'm feeling good (physically) without the inner tension and anxiety I always had the last years! My body feels so good, as if I was suddenly lighter by many kilos :DMe, too. That tension and anxiety is gone! That was gone along with suicidal thoughts, from early on.
> I absolutely hope that the final, steady effect parnate would give me would address this inner tension feeling too and that I would get rid of it for years!
> It's as if I was finally awaken from a bad dream that lasted for 8years+. I had forgotten how a "normal" body feeling felt like long ago it seems.
> And that are only the somatic problems parnate got rid off so far.. I have much more energy when I wake up in the morning and am motivated to getting things done and most importantly mood is good most of the time OCD is non existent so far and the overall anxiety level is near zero.Me, too!!
>
> There's still that afternoon drowsiness problem though and yesterday when trying to learn something for a course, I found out that even when I'm not tired I'm having some memory problems including difficulty concentrating. This isn't good of course when learning..You needed a BIG cup of coffee!!
All that keeps getting better for me, but I still have a coffee in the late afternoon!
> I also cought me unusually often forgetting what I was about to do, or telling people things twice because I had forgotten that I already told them a few days ago. Is this normal? Did you experience that too at the beginning?At my age, I experience that all the time!!
Just kidding. sort of
>
> This and the tiredness were bothering me so much that I went shopping yesterday getting very expensive Provigil. The Adrafinil will take another week to arrive and I thought it would be good to be able to compare those 2..I am SO glad you are doing this!! I am most anxious to know what you think after a week or so on it.
> I only took 50mg because I wanted to be safe and it was already early in the afternoon. It didn't do much, but I noticed an energizing effect as I wasn't as tired as normal at around 5pm.
> Today I slept only 6hours and took 100mg.. well let's see..I'm so happy you are doing so well!!! and I'm really looking forward to your next update!!!
Take care,
Hugs,
Gayle
Posted by floatingbridge on October 28, 2009, at 18:14:27
In reply to Parnate distinct diff.effects,acute and long term?, posted by Sunbath on October 24, 2009, at 7:47:29
Sunbath,
So it sounds like you're doing well? :-)
fb
Posted by AlexMai on October 31, 2009, at 20:16:40
In reply to Re: Parnate distinct diff.effects,acute and long term? » ColoradoSnowflake, posted by Maxime on October 24, 2009, at 15:58:54
I too noticed the "buzz effect" from Parnate. It's akin to having taken a caffeinated soda, but a little stronger cause it's with you all day. I just started Parnate 4 days ago, and I know this is the stimulating effect it has. I don't mind the stimulation and realize it will probably go away on its own anyway.
This is the end of the thread.
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