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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 11 of 11. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Fred23 on October 24, 2009, at 13:40:29
In the course of my reading, I've noticed the theme of legal drugs like SSRIs being something like slow-speed longer-acting versions of illegal drugs like cocaine.
Here I've seen reports of high doses of Lexapro being prescribed, e.g. 30 or 40 mg per day, vs. the more "normal" dose of 10 mg.
And others report daytime fatigue from Lexapro.
Would those that have this fatigue be more energized if they went above some threshold, and had their brain revved up by *higher* doses of Lexapro? As opposed to higher doses causing even more fatigue?
Posted by metafunj on October 24, 2009, at 14:08:32
In reply to SSRIs as slow speed cocaine - dose related?, posted by Fred23 on October 24, 2009, at 13:40:29
I doubt that would help if you're tired. Cocaine also causes the release of dopamine and lexapro doesn't. You could try it and see if it doesn't make you tired though.
Posted by linkadge on October 24, 2009, at 17:01:50
In reply to Re: SSRIs as slow speed cocaine - dose related?, posted by metafunj on October 24, 2009, at 14:08:32
>Here I've seen reports of high doses of Lexapro >being prescribed, e.g. 30 or 40 mg per day, vs. >the more "normal" dose of 10 mg.
Well, for patients that are resistent to lower doses, higher doses are sometimes helpful. SSRI's primarily act on serotonin. Cocaine inhibits the reuptake of serotonin norepinephrine and dopamine and has effects on monoamine release in the neucleus accumbens.
Occasionally SSRI's can cause mild euphoria on startup. I only had this once, possibly because it caused me sleep deprivation. The other times I took SSRI's I felt worse than before for the first few weeks.
>Would those that have this fatigue be more >energized if they went above some threshold, and >had their brain revved up by *higher* doses of >Lexapro? As opposed to higher doses causing even >more fatigue?
Antidepressants are different from stimulants. Higher doses often don't produce more stimulation, with the exception of perhaps wellbutrin, parnate, and desipramine / nortriptyline.
Individual responces vary though,
Linkadge
Posted by Fred23 on October 24, 2009, at 18:11:00
In reply to SSRIs as slow speed cocaine - dose related?, posted by Fred23 on October 24, 2009, at 13:40:29
A related angle is the idea that SSRIs can make one feel better than normal, and even give one an advantage over those not medicated.
What I wonder is that feeling better is dose-related.
(A practical purpose would be that if one has such a diagnosis that results in taking Lexapro, the path to low cost life insurance is blocked. So, one might want to have a way to work more to earn more money to make up for that, so why not pursue something that gives that advantage?)
Posted by rjlockhart04-08 on October 24, 2009, at 22:25:13
In reply to Re: SSRIs as slow speed cocaine - dose related?, posted by metafunj on October 24, 2009, at 14:08:32
the only thing antidepressants do not produce extreme euphoria, that cocaine produces.
Wellbutrin is the only one that is known that would be considered a stimulant like antidepressant.
They also produce flatness[inhibition of serotonin], not euphoria.
Posted by Phillipa on October 24, 2009, at 22:34:16
In reply to Re: SSRIs as slow speed cocaine - dose related?, posted by Fred23 on October 24, 2009, at 18:11:00
Fred even lower than normal doses rev me up and it's unbearable to me. Don't know why someone would like to be high on meds. To me not good. Definitely don't make me tired. Phillipa
Posted by bearfan on October 25, 2009, at 1:48:28
In reply to Re: SSRIs as slow speed cocaine - dose related? » Fred23, posted by Phillipa on October 24, 2009, at 22:34:16
Not that greatest analogy, but cocaine acts almost like triple re uptake inhibitor. So the only similarities would be the serotonin one.
Posted by metafunj on October 25, 2009, at 10:18:29
In reply to Re: SSRIs as slow speed cocaine - dose related?, posted by Fred23 on October 24, 2009, at 18:11:00
If for some reason taking an AD prevents one from receiving lost cost life insurance, why not take a look at alternative medicine? You could take Perika or Kira brand St. John's Wort and not need a doctors diagnosis. Its also way safer than cocaine.
Posted by sowhysosad on October 25, 2009, at 10:58:09
In reply to SSRIs as slow speed cocaine - dose related?, posted by Fred23 on October 24, 2009, at 13:40:29
> In the course of my reading, I've noticed the theme of legal drugs like SSRIs being something like slow-speed longer-acting versions of illegal drugs like cocaine.
Yeah, Prozac was initially redolent of very mild MDMA for me (a similar dual effect on serotonin and dopmamine?), and a friend said Effexor felt exactly like amphetamine including identical side effects (the norepinephrine boost perhaps?).
Posted by linkadge on October 25, 2009, at 10:18:55
In reply to Re: SSRIs as slow speed cocaine - dose related?, posted by Fred23 on October 24, 2009, at 18:11:00
>A related angle is the idea that SSRIs can make >one feel better than normal, and even give one >an advantage over those not medicated.
This has happened for a very small proportion of those that take antidepressants. It may be in those who have a bipolar disposition.
>What I wonder is that feeling better is dose->related.
No I definately don't think this is the case with most antidepressants. I felt substantially worse on higher doses of citalopram than lower doses. SSRI's only boost serotonin which can have inhibitory effects on the release of dopamine. Oftentime SSRI induced apathy is ameleorated by a decrease in SSRI dose.
Dopamine increases motivation, so increasing an SSRI dose too high would ultimaltely decrease energy and motivation.
>(A practical purpose would be that if one has >such a diagnosis that results in taking >Lexapro, the path to low cost life insurance is >blocked. So, one might want to have a way to >work more to earn more money to make up for >that, so why not pursue something that gives >that advantage?)As a rule of thumb, don't persue anything that is abnormal. Overproductivity is not something to strive for. The brain has normal homeostatic mechanisms in order to help keep itself healthy in the long run. The concept of taking antidepressants to boost work performance is:
a) not well suported in terms of *actually working*.
b) probably not mentally healthy for you in the long run. The brain finds ways to counteract the action of drugs when they are directly opposing a normal biological homeostasis.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on October 25, 2009, at 10:22:51
In reply to Re: SSRIs as slow speed cocaine - dose related? » Fred23, posted by sowhysosad on October 25, 2009, at 9:58:09
>Yeah, Prozac was initially redolent of very >mild MDMA for me (a similar dual effect on >serotonin and dopmamine?), and a friend said >Effexor felt exactly like amphetamine including >identical side effects (the norepinephrine >boost perhaps?).
I dunno. I had some very initial euphoriant like effects from certain antidepressants. This only lasted a day or two and was very different from the effect that it had on depression.
Initially, the drug might produce euphoria by inhibiting monoamine reuptake in the neucleus accumbens. The NAA responds more quickly than other brain regions, however, by upregulating monoamine transporters to compensate.
The same thing happens with cocaine.
Linkadge
This is the end of the thread.
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