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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 18 to 42 of 42. Go back in thread:
Posted by Quintal on November 29, 2006, at 18:03:52
In reply to Re: Ketamine study - is anything gona come of this » rovers95, posted by yxibow on November 29, 2006, at 17:50:14
Maybe people could have inpatient treatment like with ECT? I'm reading a book called 'DMT The Spirit Molecule' which is about a doctor's study into the mind altering effects of the hallucinogen DMT. The doctor discovered it had profound effects on a person's sense of wellbeing when administered in a contrlled hospital setting. Similar to what they are doing with ketamine in those clinical trials I imagine.
Q
Posted by zmg on November 29, 2006, at 18:18:13
In reply to Re: Ketamine study - is anything gona come of this » yxibow, posted by Quintal on November 29, 2006, at 18:03:52
Great book!
Posted by Quintal on November 29, 2006, at 18:25:59
In reply to Re: Ketamine study - is anything gona come of this » Quintal, posted by zmg on November 29, 2006, at 18:18:13
You have read it zmg?
Posted by zmg on November 29, 2006, at 18:33:33
In reply to Re: Ketamine study - is anything gona come of this » zmg, posted by Quintal on November 29, 2006, at 18:25:59
A couple of years ago. I've always found psychopharmacology interesting. I wish there were more books like it.
- Zach
Posted by Quintal on November 29, 2006, at 18:44:24
In reply to Re: Ketamine study - is anything gona come of this » Quintal, posted by zmg on November 29, 2006, at 18:33:33
Oh there are plenty where that came from Zach. I did a search of Amazon last week and I've just ordered a whole load.
Have you read 'Intoxication' by Roland K. Siegel Ph.D?
Jon
Posted by zmg on November 29, 2006, at 20:52:58
In reply to Re: Ketamine study - is anything gona come of this » zmg, posted by Quintal on November 29, 2006, at 18:44:24
I hadn't, but now that I've read the summary and some reviews I'll have to order it. Thanks.
You have a list in the book-section or something? I'd love to see more.
Posted by Quintal on November 29, 2006, at 22:30:18
In reply to Re: Ketamine study - is anything gona come of this » Quintal, posted by zmg on November 29, 2006, at 20:52:58
No I don't have a book list, but I can make one. What do I have to do, just write a list and post it under the Books section or is there a protocol?
Q
Posted by zmg on November 29, 2006, at 23:54:11
In reply to Re: Ketamine study - is anything gona come of this » zmg, posted by Quintal on November 29, 2006, at 22:30:18
That would work. I'm just trying not to hijack the topic here.
- Zach
Posted by tessellated on December 1, 2006, at 2:56:32
In reply to Re: Ketamine study - is anything gona come of this » Quintal, posted by zmg on November 29, 2006, at 23:54:11
people, people, people,
ketamine is the vetrinarians anesthic of preference, over, narcotics, bartituates, because it does not typicaly have significant affects on life signs like respiration, heart rate, or blood pressure, in this way its very unique.it has a wide therapuetic window, meaning that to knock an mammal out, you can pretty much eyeball it rather than requiring an anesthesiologist and sophisticated monitoring of life signs and antidotes on hand. And its short acting. Ever have dog surgery when they stumble around for days? Phenobarbital (common for rats) is slow to metabolize, and hard to find proper dosage without killing the animal, similarly for scopalomine, and most sedatives. For vet surgery its a wonderdrug-easy and safe to admin. often used just for dental cleaning. I think the UK finally just upped the schedule, making ALL animal surgery potentially life threatening because all the alternatives alter heart rate, blood pressure, and respiration, if not all three, for extended periods.
A k-hole is merely when the person ingests enough, and is no longer in volitional control of their muscles, and may experience an "out of body", or "near death" archetypal experience. As a party drug, ketamine, much like GHB, the LD (lethal death) dose and the therapeutic window are quite far apart. However any drug that makes one unconscious in public simply by doubling a dose, probably should be controlled, as it costs the individuals thousands of dollars of medical bills, scares the hell out of them, their friends, puts them in jeopary, and can ruin any party.
People can kill themselves by taking tylenol a lot easier than with either of these "rave drugs". Its not the drug, its the fact that kids do stupid things to themselves and others on all drugs particularly alchohol.
As far as all of the hallucinogens go, IMHO, ketamine is the most selective, insightful, and safe option going. ou can also mix it pretty safely with other meds, so when EMT's suspect other meds in someones system, ketamine will be used due to the fact it has some of the lowest psysiological side effects. Its used for children, burn victims, soldiers, wherever depressed respiration rules out narcotics. For those of you out there on MAOI's. Ketamine can be a life saver, as there are no interactions, as it operates on a completely different mechanism, and its not synergistic. So its one of the few MAOI safe, fast acting, anethetics, available.
Problem is yeah it alters consciousness.
And "ravers" do dumb sh*t like sniff, smoke, or ingest waay too much to stand let alone talk, drive, or go to denny's. Personally, I've had my exhausting 2 decades of psychonautic adventures, and wouldn't give anyone anyone hallucinogens anymore except for ketamine, because at a solid dose all they do is lie down and shut up, and about an hour later want to talk about life/death/consciousness quantum dimensions, time, and the body. None of this bolting out the door, jumping in a car, etc, locking themselves inside bathrooms, getting lost in the woods, etc..
Ketamine is also far more selective on aspects of consciousness. Rather than say with the tryptamines like acid, shrooms, etc where you really gotta baby sit the user sometimes physically, ketamine is a tranquillizer. More intriguingly, it seems to alter the perception of time, the body, and sound more speficically, as well as at higher doses imagery-consciousness feels very hmmm "quantum", it's not dominated by the fear of ego dissolution, rather by the fear of the loss of body. Its less neurotoxic than X, and I think could be highly therapuetic for PTSD patients and the like. Helped me wondrously process my first parents death. And weirdly does produce at higher doses near death experiences; leaving the body, white lights, conversations with loved ones live and dead, life flashing by, acceptance of loss, awareness of continuity, and leaves one as most near death experiences do with a renewed vigor for the simple things in life. Almost dying is a great anti depressant.I guess the stupid part is, is that as a pain killer (dissociative) below catatonia, when dancing is great, it could let a user punch through walls, break bones, etc without feeling pain, just about like alhohol.
Regardless, in my mind it's one of the most safe, illuminating, and therapueticallly beneficial psychedelics out there, particularly for dealing with depression accompanying bereavement, heartbreak, impermanence, and loss.
Posted by yxibow on December 1, 2006, at 4:37:21
In reply to Re: Ketamine study - is anything gona come of this, posted by tessellated on December 1, 2006, at 2:56:32
Veterinarians.
Last time I checked we were talking about antidepressants for homo sapiens.
Sure the LD50 for rats is more than Sevin, but so what?
"Party drugs".Enough said. One chooses to experiment, one takes the consequences. I'm not demonizing the user, I don't really care about 'soft' drugs like marijuana, but uncontrolled use of hard drugs on people, especially those who haven't fully developed their bodies (some people don't mature until around 21 or 22) is rather scary and what is the point of potentially going to the hospital even if you won't be killed with xx grams of Ketamine.
Erowid is filled with lots of stories, many of which don't even use one substance -- I mean what is the point of combining four or five controlled substances and then reporting on how you tripped out for 3 days.And yes I know that acetaminophen/paracetamol is very toxic not that much beyond a therapeutic window. But its all we have for true fever reduction in those under about 18-21 (Reyes syndrome...) besides aspirin. Ibuprofen and its many derivatives don't hit that part of the body very well.
Psychoactive substances would be the term for prescription drugs. Psychadelic substances semantically says something else...
I have no problem with research and development, but this doesn't include the rave scene, the last time I checked with the FDA and researchers.
Posted by Quintal on December 1, 2006, at 10:22:44
In reply to Re: Ketamine study - is anything gona come of this, posted by tessellated on December 1, 2006, at 2:56:32
Thank you for that post tessellated. It was very insightful. Ketamine has just gone up in my estimation. I hope those researchers do manage to get it licensed for at least specialist use.
>For those of you out there on MAOI's. Ketamine can be a life saver, as there are no interactions, as it operates on a completely different mechanism, and its not synergistic. So its one of the few MAOI safe, fast acting, anethetics, available.
This was a concern for me when I started Parnate. The pdoc told me "If you get run over by a bus there is nothing we could give you for the pain" which I thought was harsh. I had wondered about nitrous oxide, but that wouldn't be a longer term solution in any case. I thought the -amine bit of ketamine would rule out its use in combination with MAOIs so I never investigated
it further. I may well go on to try Nardil now I can put my mind at rest.Q
Posted by zmg on December 1, 2006, at 15:21:07
In reply to Re: Ketamine study - is anything gona come of this » tessellated, posted by yxibow on December 1, 2006, at 4:37:21
Ouch. Party drugs is pretty hard label to shake. The kind of label that has a chilling effect on research (seem Maps vs. MDMA).
But the Ketamine research seems to be legitimate (honestly I think most research is legitimate and shouldn't be scoffed at because a drug finds it way into abuse, if you did that we wouldn't have a lot of existing medications!):
"The National Institute of Health News reports that a study of 18 patients led by Dr Carlos Zarate Jr. of the National Institute of Mental Health found that ketamine significantly improved treatment-resistant major depression within hours of injection. The improvement lasted up to one week after the single dose. The patients in the study were previously treatment resistant, having tried an average of six other treatments that failed. The importance of these findings was articulated by NIMH director Dr Thomas Insel: "To my knowledge, this is the first report of any medication or other treatment that results in such a pronounced, rapid, prolonged response with a single dose. These were very treatment-resistant patients." The researchers apparently attribute the effect to ketamine being an NMDA receptor antagonist. The study appears in the Archives of General Psychiatry. Those findings of Zarate et al corroborate earlier findings by Berman et all."
Posted by madeline on December 1, 2006, at 16:15:22
In reply to Re: Ketamine study - is anything gona come of this, posted by tessellated on December 1, 2006, at 2:56:32
I think there is a good chance if the positive results keep piling up that ketamine may have an application as an inpatient drug.
Just like IV morphine is stictly controlled, I think ketamine will be handled similarly.
Posted by Quintal on December 1, 2006, at 16:30:43
In reply to Re: Ketamine study - is anything gona come of this » yxibow, posted by zmg on December 1, 2006, at 15:21:07
>The patients in the study were previously treatment resistant, having tried an average of six other treatments that failed. These were very treatment-resistant patients
Is that all it takes to be considered treatment resistant???!!!!!! Jeeeez I wonder what those researchers would make of most of the people posting here?
Q
Posted by Quintal on December 2, 2006, at 19:34:51
In reply to Re: Ketamine study - is anything gona come of this, posted by Quintal on December 1, 2006, at 16:30:43
I found this article while looking for info on meprobamate (Milltown) for Phillipa (yes it's another biopsychiatry link zmg :-o). It appears that meprobamate has some NMDA antagonist effect? Can anyone else debunk it a bit?
http://www.biopsychiatry.com/dicarbcomp.htm
Q
Posted by Phillipa on December 2, 2006, at 21:45:18
In reply to Re: Ketamine study - is anything gona come of this, posted by Quintal on December 2, 2006, at 19:34:51
Thanks Q joining the thread. Love Phillipa
Posted by Dr. Bob on December 3, 2006, at 10:33:45
In reply to Re: Ketamine study - is anything gona come of this » yxibow, posted by Quintal on November 29, 2006, at 18:03:52
> I'm reading a book called 'DMT The Spirit Molecule' which is about a doctor's study into the mind altering effects of the hallucinogen DMT. The doctor discovered it had profound effects on a person's sense of wellbeing when administered in a contrlled hospital setting.
I'd just like to plug the double double quotes feature at this site:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#amazon
The first time anyone refers to a book, movie, or music without using this option, I post this to try to make sure he or she at least knows about it. It's just an option, though, and doesn't *have* to be used. If people *choose* not to use it, I'd be interested why not, but I'd like that redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20020918/msgs/7717.html
Thanks!
Bob
Posted by zmg on December 3, 2006, at 13:24:45
In reply to Re: double double quotes » Quintal, posted by Dr. Bob on December 3, 2006, at 10:33:45
To keep out of the way of the current discussion we moved this topic to the books section (but I'd love to hear from anyone else!):
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/books/20061001/msgs/709443.html
Quintal pointed out the double-quotes system there and we've been using it (definately helpful!).
Posted by Rani on December 4, 2006, at 1:57:45
In reply to Re: Ketamine » Quintal, posted by zmg on November 28, 2006, at 11:33:40
Unfortuneatly Ketamine is a highly 'abuseable' (sic?) drug which would have to be strictly regulated.
Everyone has such a difference tolerance to Ketamine and low doses in some people can cause hallucinations and dysphoria.
We use it in anaesthetics but even then it is only in specific cases when nothing else has worked for analgesic properties.
I suppose it would be a matter of making it in a form that is less able to be abused.
It can also cause some agitation at times.
Posted by Dr. Bob on December 4, 2006, at 2:10:14
In reply to Re: double double quotes, posted by zmg on December 3, 2006, at 13:24:45
> To keep out of the way of the current discussion we moved this topic to the books section
>
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/books/20061001/msgs/709443.htmlThanks!
Bob
Posted by tessellated on December 10, 2006, at 19:29:01
In reply to Re: Ketamine study - is anything gona come of this » tessellated, posted by yxibow on December 1, 2006, at 4:37:21
> Veterinarians.
Sorry, I don't see animals as soooo substantially different than homo sapien sapien. C fiber stim, ie. pain is complex, but not necessarily within species.
No one knows what "pain" means.Options are the best thing capitalism offers us.
Followed by freedom of choice.If AA, NA, etc works for you, do it.
Whatever works.
I'm off MAOI's due to other factors, but yet post here because i feel so strongly antagonistic toward the popular culture and ethics of drug giving that I cant help ,myself.NOBODY KNOWS YOU LIKE YOU.
Lastly, we still have yet to understand how much variabilility can occur within and without our own species, so i think that dismissining any form of information at this point is unwise.
You don't think our pets get stressed, psycotic, depressed?
If your dog wont quit barking give them a neuroleptic.
F*ck that. I'd rather slip em some benzo's.
I hope never to have a pet i'm forced to give neuroleptics, as it would reflect (to some degree) upon me.Perhaps consciousness is not isolated to homosapiens sapiens.
My instinct is that its all a grey scale.l8
> Last time I checked we were talking about antidepressants for homo sapiens.
>
>
> Sure the LD50 for rats is more than Sevin, but so what?
>
>
> "Party drugs".
>
> Enough said. One chooses to experiment, one takes the consequences. I'm not demonizing the user, I don't really care about 'soft' drugs like marijuana, but uncontrolled use of hard drugs on people, especially those who haven't fully developed their bodies (some people don't mature until around 21 or 22) is rather scary and what is the point of potentially going to the hospital even if you won't be killed with xx grams of Ketamine.
>
>
> Erowid is filled with lots of stories, many of which don't even use one substance -- I mean what is the point of combining four or five controlled substances and then reporting on how you tripped out for 3 days.
>
> And yes I know that acetaminophen/paracetamol is very toxic not that much beyond a therapeutic window. But its all we have for true fever reduction in those under about 18-21 (Reyes syndrome...) besides aspirin. Ibuprofen and its many derivatives don't hit that part of the body very well.
>
>
> Psychoactive substances would be the term for prescription drugs. Psychadelic substances semantically says something else...
>
>
> I have no problem with research and development, but this doesn't include the rave scene, the last time I checked with the FDA and researchers.
>
>
Posted by myblusky on December 12, 2006, at 15:14:07
In reply to Re: Ketamine » saturn, posted by yxibow on November 27, 2006, at 4:29:22
My guess is that they are going to try to alter the Ketamine so that it doesn't cause hallucinations while maintaining the anti-depressive qualaties of the drug. I completely understand why they aren't going out and giving this medication to everyone with depression. There are side effects - one of which you spend the first several hours zoned out after the shot is given. Also - the current method of diagnosis for depression is a list of symptoms - no medical test. Anyone can go to their doctor and claim to be hopeless and unable to get out of bed in order to get Ketamine. Basically they have to find a way to keep it from being of any value to people with addiction problems. They also need to figure out a way to get rid of the zoned out effect it has after being given. I don't really think being a zoned out zombie everytime I take a drug is any more pleasing than the side effects I currently have from SSRIs.
Posted by Quintal on December 12, 2006, at 15:47:30
In reply to Re: Ketamine, posted by myblusky on December 12, 2006, at 15:14:07
>My guess is that they are going to try to alter the Ketamine so that it doesn't cause hallucinations while maintaining the anti-depressive qualities of the drug.
How? 'tis the nature of the beast.
> Anyone can go to their doctor and claim to be hopeless and unable to get out of bed in order to get Ketamine. Basically they have to find a way to keep it from being of any value to people with addiction problems.
Much the same can be said with regards to opiates and something like chronic back pain - very hard to diagnose for sure. I think we were mostly referring to the use of Ketamine on an inpatient basis to treatment resistant patients. I can't personally imagine people taking Ketamine on a daily basis in the same way as SSRIs - the preference seems to be occasional inpatient treatments in a similar way that ECT is used today.
>They also need to figure out a way to get rid of the zoned out effect it has after being given.
I'm guessing the zoned out/psychedelic effect is Ketamine's main mode of action. It is often a mystical/spiritual experience that transforms a person's perception of themselves and their situation rather than working primarily on altering levels of neurotransmitters in the brain.
>I don't really think being a zoned out zombie everytime I take a drug is any more pleasing than the side effects I currently have from SSRIs.
I appreciate what you're saying, but bear in mind the word 'zombie' is often used by people describing their experiences with SSRIs and other commonly prescribed drugs such as the atypical antipsychotics.
Q
Posted by tessellated on December 12, 2006, at 21:09:25
In reply to Re: Ketamine » myblusky, posted by Quintal on December 12, 2006, at 15:47:30
I'm guessing the zoned out/psychedelic effect is Ketamine's main mode of action. It is often a mystical/spiritual experience that transforms a person's perception of themselves and their situation rather than working primarily on altering levels of neurotransmitters in the brain
-how can you know the difference?
Posted by Quintal on December 12, 2006, at 21:33:21
In reply to Re: Ketamine, posted by tessellated on December 12, 2006, at 21:09:25
>-how can you know the difference?
Between Ketamine's effect on neurotransmitters and the psychedelic experience? That isn't quite what I meant. Obviously the psychedelic effects are caused by Ketamine's NMDA antagonism or some other action on the brain, but those effects aren't seen with SSRIs or antipsychotics and are certainly not their mode of action. I'm guessing that it's the personal insights or perhaps just the profound shift in consciousness - the dissociation - that sets the antidepressant effect of Ketamine apart from conventional antidepressant drugs. A bit like psychedelic therapy.
I've read from some sources that believe a substantial portion of the beneficial effect of ECT is due to the general anaesthetic alone. I'll try and find a link.
Q
This is the end of the thread.
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