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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 84. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Reggie BoStar on November 22, 2006, at 4:07:20
I've been around long enough now to know that the statements "It's treatable" and "keep trying, you'll find the right medication and therapy" are just bad guesses on the part of people who don't even know how those therapies work.
I'm 56, been this way since 10, alive for nothing, did not one thing with my life except exist in a constant state of depression, often really bad, only relief is "hypomania" which is actually depression for most other people. Nothing has worked; no meds, ECT, therapy, nothing. Worst of all, at times I seem to get a glimmer of hope from an AD medication or therapy, only to be shut down when it stops working. The SSRI's are a good example. Everyone knows they don't last, including the pros. They don't warn you ahead of time to be prepared when it stops working or doesn't work at all.
Why do we bother with all this? Why do we spend so much money and time with pdocs who don't even know how some of these things work? All it is is a continuous struggle with some failed attempt at "harm reduction", and they know it.
"harm reduction". That's a good one. At least they're admitting that nothing works, that the best they can do is hold your hand through a crisis, until, guess what, you have another crisis.
So what's the point? A life of one crisis after another until I die. What am I being kept alive for? I do nothing but get treatment and exist. After 40 some-odd years of this, I've finally realized that this is it for the rest of my life. Apparently my blessing is cowardice, so I'm too afraid to stop wasting time. So why?
Posted by SLS on November 22, 2006, at 7:39:34
In reply to It's Treatable. No, it's not., posted by Reggie BoStar on November 22, 2006, at 4:07:20
> at times I seem to get a glimmer of hope from an AD medication or therapy, only to be shut down when it stops working.
This is a demonstration that the hardware is capable of functioning. It just needs to be re-regulated and encouraged to make new connections. In other words, for you, something can work.
> Why do we bother with all this?
I guess it is because we have no better choice.
> So what's the point? A life of one crisis after another until I die.
<Sigh>
I know. There are no guarantees that anything will change in our lifetimes.
> What am I being kept alive for?
This is where the work comes in - lots of it. What I seek from counseling are ways to experience life to the fullest within the limits imposed by my illness. This requires acceptance - at least in for the short-term. I still maintain the ambition to attain wellness. However, I no longer look at this as being imminent. Antidepressant drugs with novel mechanisms of action are still years away. I may or may not respond to rTMS or VNS. In the meantime, it is a conscious decision of mine to learn new ways to live life with an old darkness, hoping that I might find light that still exists or create some of my own.
> I do nothing but get treatment and exist.
Me too. Again, though, I am making it the focus of counseling to learn to live a life within the confines of a biological depression. To do this, it is important to know the nature of your individual depression and how it impacts you on a moment by moment basis as well as in the long-term. It is important to know your enemy. Not only am I learning coping tools through strategies like CBT (cognitive behavioral therapy), but I am hoping to learn ways of finding enjoyment, purpose, and reward in the life my depression will allow me. In other words, I will try to use all of what little God has given me to work with.
> After 40 some-odd years of this, I've finally realized that this is it for the rest of my life.
Like I said, there are no guarantees. There is no guarantee that you will ever get well. However, there is no guarantee that you won't.
> Apparently my blessing is cowardice, so I'm too afraid to stop wasting time.
Whatever it takes.
- Scott
Posted by linkadge on November 22, 2006, at 8:37:09
In reply to It's Treatable. No, it's not., posted by Reggie BoStar on November 22, 2006, at 4:07:20
Hey, I completely agree with you. Not to hope that you don't end up feeling better in some capacity.
If you don't kill yourself, they've done their job.
Linkadge
Posted by Phillipa on November 22, 2006, at 12:12:41
In reply to Re: It's Treatable. No, it's not. » Reggie BoStar, posted by SLS on November 22, 2006, at 7:39:34
Scott seriously does the theraphy help? Do you happen to have a link to good therapists in my area that accept Medicaire.? Thanks Jan
Posted by Declan on November 22, 2006, at 13:31:05
In reply to It's Treatable. No, it's not., posted by Reggie BoStar on November 22, 2006, at 4:07:20
There are things that nothing works for. I don't know why this is so difficult to accept when it is so apparent.
We have been brought up on mechanical metaphors (where things can be replaced). After your post on Social I won't even mention religion.
I think the culture of the West sucks, basically. Altogether too much will.
Posted by blueberry on November 22, 2006, at 18:15:14
In reply to It's Treatable. No, it's not., posted by Reggie BoStar on November 22, 2006, at 4:07:20
When doctors and medicines fail, I say take the reins and do it yourself. It takes a lot of research at pubmed.com. Go there. Study things you haven't tried.
While there are some of us like you and me that are extremely hard to treat and any hint of wellness is short-lived, I do believe still and have faith that good times can be had. It's just that we've been looking in the wrong places. Serotonin reuptake inhibitors failed? Fine. Wellbutrin failed? Fine. Mao inhibitors failed? Fine. That just tells me that the last thing we want to do is force the brain to slow down its firing by blocking everything up and causing a dammed-up flood. I just try to use this same kind of in-your-face logic for whatever. I believe there are lots of clues available from your previous med experiences.
Ever tried natural stuff? Rhodiola rosea? St Johns Wort? How about acetyl-l-carnitine that is comparable to amisulpride or amineptine in clinical effectiveness. Of course some would say if heavy duty meds wouldn't work, then how could a simple herb work? Well, they aren't so simple. They actually do a lot more than meds, in terms of reacting with all kinds of things besides just the three basic neurotransmitters.
For meds, how about tianeptine? Order it overseas. For that matter, how about anything that is distinctly different than anything you've tried? Actually, since everything that makes sense has failed, then go for the things that don't make so much sense. Logic again.
Lithium? Zyprexa? Buprenorphine? Dopamine agonists? Alprazolam? Ritalin? Adderall? Tianeptine? Amisulpride? Whatever...take a look at all the things you haven't tried and study them.
For trials, don't waste your life on them. Give each thing 2 weeks. If you haven't felt a hint of benefit in 2 weeks, forget it. Go through a very short withdrawal, versus a long nasty one of a long trial, or just switch straight over to the next thing. It is my belief, and will be debated by many, that in people like you and me when the right molecule is found, the body will let you know in a very positive fast way. Could the molecule work if given longer than 2 weeks? Maybe. But your experience says no. You would be sustaining the same lifelong pattern it's always been.
Basically what I am saying is it is time to think outside the box, time to take over your own care, and have faith. Meanwhile, I agree with the previous posters that counseling would be very helpful. Likely not a cure, but a definite lift.
And when anyone asks you if you've checked with your doctor on whatever you are trying, just say he's already had his 20 years of chance and he's probably home sipping wine without even a thought in the world about me. It would not surprise me at all if the molecule that ends up helping you a lot in the longterm is one that is available at your health food store or from an overseas mailorder pharmacy.
For starters, go to the health food store or drug store and buy acetyl-l-carnitine, start at 250mg a day and if it isn't too stimulating take more...clinical trials were 500mg 3 times a day. If it is going to help, you will know as early as day 1 but definitely within 2 weeks. You might be surprised.
And if you aren't already, get Nordic Naturals fish oil that is 425mgEPA and 100mgDHA. Take two a day. You might be surprised.
Posted by clint878 on November 22, 2006, at 19:24:32
In reply to It's Treatable. No, it's not., posted by Reggie BoStar on November 22, 2006, at 4:07:20
You should probably also consider that there may be a completely different, treatable cause to the depression. For example, B12 deficiency can cause depression that won't respond to any drugs other than B12.
If you haven't had a full battery of tests to rule out other conditions, you might want to start with a general practitioner and work from there.
Posted by blueberry on November 23, 2006, at 8:02:27
In reply to It's Treatable. No, it's not., posted by Reggie BoStar on November 22, 2006, at 4:07:20
There is some great information available without the use of drugs. Very detailed step by step instructions to test yourself for all kinds of abnormalities that your doctor will likely miss. There are many one day to two week tests to gather clues and find rapid recovery. Everything from basic neurotransmitter shortage to undiagnosed hypothyroidism (even when your doctor says your thyroid is fine) to hidden hypoglycemia and all kinds of stuff too lengthy to list here.
Go to www.healthrecovery.com. Then click on the red molecule and find solutions to correct emotional disorders.
Where it takes you, go to the first paragraph and click on "cure for depression".
Then where it takes you, look on the left side of the screen and click on "biochemical depression".
I get the impression that it isn't so much that these folks believe in natural treatments, but rather they believe depression has biochemical causes and that medications only attempt to cover them up and actually make them worse, and that there are detailed steps to find what the underlying problem is.
The cool thing is that they list symptoms of different kinds of depression and their common causes so it helps you see what resembles you. And then, the samples or tests are fast. And then, recovery is also fast. No long trials and wasted time.
I haven't given up hope for you. I was up at 2:30 in the morning thinking about you and looking for this information.
Posted by FredPotter on November 23, 2006, at 15:49:33
In reply to Re: It's Treatable. Yes, yes it is. » Reggie BoStar, posted by blueberry on November 23, 2006, at 8:02:27
I see that site recommends taking GABA. Unfortunately it doesn't cross the blood-brain barrier. So the site seems to be saying, "don't take those nasty drugs - take something natural that doesn't work" Fred
Posted by saturn on November 23, 2006, at 17:30:37
In reply to Re: It's Treatable. No, it's not. » Reggie BoStar, posted by SLS on November 22, 2006, at 7:39:34
> > at times I seem to get a glimmer of hope from an AD medication or therapy, only to be shut down when it stops working.
>
> This is a demonstration that the hardware is capable of functioning.So insightful. This concept, though so simple, often keeps me inspired.
If I can feel, behave or concentrate or even just laugh as I'd like for even a few brief moments out of months or years it confirms to me that my brain is capable of reaching such states.
For example, in Wal-Mart a few weeks ago a sort of heavy peace just came over me for a few minutes--like an anti-anxiety attack--for no apparent reason and then poof--like smoke it was gone.
And a few years ago, I just came off the cuff out of nowhere with confidence and spontaneous humor with a beautiful woman at the gas station while we were both getting gas. I'm normally very shy and a nervous wreck in such situations. Yet it is possible.
All this makes me wonder if meditation might not be useful to some extent. However the brain gets there--drugs or otherwise, so long as it is possible there is hope.
Best to you, Reggie BoStar. I do not pretend to tell you that everything will get better or give you a superficial pep-talk, but realizing Scott's perspective may give some balance. And as Blueberry said, you've figured out so much that *doesn't* work. Keep fighting, even if it's only miniscule progress each day. P-babble is an amazing resource. I feel like sh** a lot of the time but it is in these states that it is most important to think of a moment--even if it lasted only a few seconds like an orgasm--when life felt worth living. Just my two cents. Peace...Saturn.
Posted by linkadge on November 23, 2006, at 20:02:08
In reply to Re: It's Treatable. No, it's not. » SLS, posted by saturn on November 23, 2006, at 17:30:37
Happiness is just a evolutionary adaptation to try and get the organism to do what is deemed to be best.
It is impossable to achieve lasting happiness. It is an illusion that you can, thats why most of us are here, that is what keeps us going, the hope that you can gain control over ones own hedonic capacity. The illusion of free will.
The brain is so fundimentally flawed. It is wired with feedback loops on its feedback loops, it knows every trick in the book, it is always one step ahead, it cannot be outsmarted.
The brain will adjust to whatever you give it.
The only guarente in life is that whatever gives you happiness will eventually fade away. Happiness is only to "keep you going" just as an orgasm is to get you to procreate. Apparently, it is not in an ones best interest to remain happy.
I am not going to sit here and try to convince you that any drug will ever make you happy because I don't believe it is possable.
Linkadge
Posted by SLS on November 24, 2006, at 1:56:21
In reply to Re: It's Treatable. No, it's not., posted by linkadge on November 23, 2006, at 20:02:08
> Happiness is just a evolutionary adaptation to try and get the organism to do what is deemed to be best.
Or, perhaps it is just meant to be a long-term distraction.
> It is impossable to achieve lasting happiness.Speaking for yourself, of course.
> It is an illusion that you can,
It is evident that others do achieve lasting happiness. This is what I see, anyway. Why look away?
> The brain is so fundimentally flawed. It is wired with feedback loops on its feedback loops, it knows every trick in the book, it is always one step ahead, it cannot be outsmarted.
Perhaps the key is not to try to outsmart it, but to force it to run the right program it already has the software for.
> The only guarente in life is that whatever gives you happiness will eventually fade away.
Not such a guarantee, I don't think. This is probably a function of choice. Of course, it helps to know what choices there are.
> Happiness is only to "keep you going" just as an orgasm is to get you to procreate.
So, then, you do see that happiness can persist.
> Apparently, it is not in an ones best interest to remain happy.
Of course it is. People who are happy live longer and better.
> I am not going to sit here and try to convince you that any drug will ever make you happy because I don't believe it is possable.
Perhaps this is not the right role to place a drug in. A drug does not create happiness, people do. However, a drug can facilitate one's brain to resume functioning in such a way as to allow for the creation of happiness.
There are incorrigibly happy people in this world. This, I can guarantee you. You ought to look into self-actualization. It's pretty cool.
- Scott
Posted by linkadge on November 24, 2006, at 8:44:10
In reply to Re: It's Treatable. No, it's not., posted by SLS on November 24, 2006, at 1:56:21
It is *impossable* to know that anyone else is actually happy. The only person one can really know is oneself.
I knew a girl who was so happy and bubbley. Everybody envied her go lucky attitude, and everybody wondered what she was so cheerful about. Nothing seemed to bother her, and her state of mind was everbodys goal.
Nobody knows why she did it.
And it was a lesson to me that you just don't know.
Linkadge
Posted by SLS on November 24, 2006, at 13:10:15
In reply to Re: It's Treatable. No, it's not., posted by linkadge on November 24, 2006, at 8:44:10
> It is *impossable* to know that anyone else is actually happy.
Hmm.
Impossible?
That's too bad.
- Scott
Posted by linkadge on November 24, 2006, at 14:28:42
In reply to Re: It's Treatable. No, it's not., posted by SLS on November 24, 2006, at 13:10:15
Unless you have formed a telepathic connection to the subject in question it is impossable to tell if anyone else is happy or just faking it.
I fake it all the time.
Linkadge
Posted by Phillipa on November 24, 2006, at 19:15:48
In reply to Re: It's Treatable. No, it's not., posted by linkadge on November 24, 2006, at 14:28:42
Me too and I bet I'm one of the sickest people on babble. Love Phillipa
Posted by SLS on November 24, 2006, at 20:54:28
In reply to Re: It's Treatable. No, it's not., posted by linkadge on November 24, 2006, at 14:28:42
> Unless you have formed a telepathic connection to the subject in question it is impossable to tell if anyone else is happy or just faking it.
I am extremely happy to report that I disagree.
- Scott
Posted by Jost on November 24, 2006, at 21:21:06
In reply to Re: It's Treatable. No, it's not., posted by SLS on November 24, 2006, at 20:54:28
But you also don't know that the woman who seemed very happy wasn't happy at those moments.
Some people experience fluctuations in mood-- and the intense sadness or depression doesn't make the happiness or elation or hypomania (if you want to call it that) less real.
Both can be real. People can do self-destructive things impulsively-- when it doesn't account for a lot of their experience.
and you don't know what lies ahead. there may be the possibility of recovery, or even remission, in the future that you can't see, or believe in. It's possible-- we need to go on, and the knowledge that there is hope, even if we can't experience it at some times-- is important--
Beyond all other things, self-destruction is very hard, and I find that the only thing I can do that's constructive with the thought of it, is avoid that thought-- because it truly does make things worse, and absolutely doesn't make them better.
I know it can be hard, and maybe it seems as if it's some comfort, but I think that that comfort of the thought-- as well as the action-- comes at much, much too high a price.
So I'm glad on any day to feel that I've done something worthwhile, even if it's much harder, and not that close to what I want it to be. I can't always achieve that, but it always remains possible.
Jost
Posted by linkadge on November 25, 2006, at 13:10:38
In reply to Re: It's Treatable. No, it's not., posted by SLS on November 24, 2006, at 20:54:28
Well, apparently the laws of physics cease to exist in your part of the country. :)
I know what you are trying to say, but logically it is impossable to actually know if somebody is happy or just faking it. Nomatter how good you think you are at reading peoples emotions, there is no way to be 100% sure that the subject in question is not just a very good actor.
For all you know they could be a robot with no emotions. Plausable...no, possable..yes.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on November 25, 2006, at 13:12:56
In reply to Re: It's Treatable. No, it's not., posted by Jost on November 24, 2006, at 21:21:06
You underestimate people's ablity to alter their behavior just to "fit in".
Linkadge
Posted by SLS on November 25, 2006, at 14:27:06
In reply to Re: It's Treatable. No, it's not., posted by linkadge on November 25, 2006, at 13:12:56
> You underestimate people's ablity to alter their behavior just to "fit in".
Perhaps you underestimate people's ability to interact honestly and spontaneously.I was with some very happy people at a funeral today. Many of them were sad. I was too. I was happy to be there.
- Scott
Posted by linkadge on November 25, 2006, at 15:00:43
In reply to Re: It's Treatable. No, it's not., posted by SLS on November 25, 2006, at 14:27:06
>I was with some very happy people at a funeral >today.
You were with what appeared to be very happy people. Unless you are telepathic there is no way to know their true emotion.
It is absolutely impossable to know for 100% that these people were actually happy.
Every single aspect of what appears to be a happy emotion can be faked.
So, I reiterate, there is not way to know for 100% that a person is actually happy and just not faking it.
Posted by SLS on November 25, 2006, at 16:30:26
In reply to Re: It's Treatable. No, it's not., posted by linkadge on November 25, 2006, at 15:00:43
> >I was with some very happy people at a funeral >today.
>
> You were with what appeared to be very happy people. Unless you are telepathic there is no way to know their true emotion.
>
> It is absolutely impossable to know for 100% that these people were actually happy.
>
> Every single aspect of what appears to be a happy emotion can be faked.
>
> So, I reiterate, there is not way to know for 100% that a person is actually happy and just not faking it.
Gosh.I hope that the drugs I have chosen to take allow me to remain ignorant of the fact that the happiness I currently experience is a figment of my imagination. I'm glad to know that my brain can fake it to the extent to which it fools even me.
- Scott
Posted by linkadge on November 25, 2006, at 17:15:47
In reply to Re: It's Treatable. No, it's not., posted by SLS on November 25, 2006, at 16:30:26
Let me sum up what I am saying in one sentence.
If I know that I cannot trust the emotional impression I present, how do I know I can trust the impressions that others present?
Linkadge
Posted by SLS on November 25, 2006, at 17:42:24
In reply to Re: It's Treatable. No, it's not., posted by linkadge on November 25, 2006, at 17:15:47
> Let me sum up what I am saying in one sentence.
>
> If I know that I cannot trust the emotional impression I present, how do I know I can trust the impressions that others present?
That is a very honest and pointed question.I think that the more connections one makes with fellow human beings, the better one becomes at recognizing happiness. Of course, it helps to entertain the possibility that such a thing is possible in order to be receptive to perceiving it where it exists. You won't be right all of the time, but so what? For the most part, I think it is healthier to err on the side of believing that a person is happy rather than unhappy.
- Scott
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