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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 18 of 18. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by lymom3 on June 27, 2006, at 14:42:53
I am ADHD, probably depressed, probably BPII. Docs guess at it as much as I do. Pdoc wants to take me off dexedrine for my ADHD. I will agree that it's not doing the job the way I want it to. Adderall was better for focus but made me mean. Haven't been sleeping so he wants to put me on Xyrem. Can't for the life of me understand where any of that makes sense.
Take away my stimulant which I need for focus and to stay on task. Give me some stupid drug that will knock me on my a** so I can be in a coma the next day without ever fixing the underlying sleep issue. For the most part I sleep well. Then there are some times when I don't seem to be able to sleep (mania maybe?).
I want to fix what's wrong, not just throw a sleeping pill at me and hope it works. Am I wrong or not thinking clearly? That answer to me just makes no sense. I really have trusted this doc implicitly and he has done wonders for my 18 year old ADHD'er but I think my perspective might be kind of shot when it comes to me.
Anyone have experience with Xyrem? Does it make any sense for me to try it?
Lisa
Posted by Phillipa on June 27, 2006, at 22:02:57
In reply to Medication woes...anyone tried Xyrem?, posted by lymom3 on June 27, 2006, at 14:42:53
I think it what is referred to as the date rape drug. So you definitely will sleep. Love Phillipa correct if I'm wrong please
Posted by willyee on June 27, 2006, at 23:05:15
In reply to Medication woes...anyone tried Xyrem?, posted by lymom3 on June 27, 2006, at 14:42:53
> I am ADHD, probably depressed, probably BPII. Docs guess at it as much as I do. Pdoc wants to take me off dexedrine for my ADHD. I will agree that it's not doing the job the way I want it to. Adderall was better for focus but made me mean. Haven't been sleeping so he wants to put me on Xyrem. Can't for the life of me understand where any of that makes sense.
>
> Take away my stimulant which I need for focus and to stay on task. Give me some stupid drug that will knock me on my a** so I can be in a coma the next day without ever fixing the underlying sleep issue. For the most part I sleep well. Then there are some times when I don't seem to be able to sleep (mania maybe?).
>
> I want to fix what's wrong, not just throw a sleeping pill at me and hope it works. Am I wrong or not thinking clearly? That answer to me just makes no sense. I really have trusted this doc implicitly and he has done wonders for my 18 year old ADHD'er but I think my perspective might be kind of shot when it comes to me.
>
> Anyone have experience with Xyrem? Does it make any sense for me to try it?
>
> LisaYess he has a reasoning for this.....xyrem....GHB
does two things,first at high does it increases gaba and quickly induces sleep,unlike Ambien and other sleep aids xyrem actualy puts you into the correct stage of rem sleep,the one in which is the recopertative sleep.Unlike Ambien or ur average sleep drug,xyrem when it wears off releases the dopamine it held back to make you sleepy,so you awaken to a stimulant effect of the dopamine release,as opposed to a sedating feeling of a sedative.
This is why its used mainly in Narcolepsy,it kills two birds with one stone,it puts them to sleep,and the dopamine rebound keeps them awake the next day so there is no need or reduced need to take the stimulants they do.
No drug is without its problems,some people find the rebound the next day too much,and feel extreme anxiety from it.
Xyrem in the form of GHB is dose dependant,at very minor doses it produces a sedative effect similiar to a benzo but with a slight mood lift.
In high doses in induces sleep.
Problem is the dose curve is instant,and its easy to make mistakes while learning your dose curve,which is why people act the fool on it sometime,it is definatly not a drug u just chug down,the dose needs to be precisly measured and kept track of.
As far as it being a date rape drug in nonsense,that was presented so the natural substance could by pass procedures it requires to make a natural substance illgal,ghb is non toxic,and no matter how they try to explain it,it simply would not be available as a script drug if it were a deadly drug.
Also with the date rape,well GHB has absolitly NO BUISNESS at all in a bar,no reasoning in the world could make sense of someone having it on them in a bar.
How do you blame a substance that a individual CHOOSES to use to commit a crime,a knife has no buisness in a school,when a kid is stabbed in school u dont ban knives.
GHB does need to be restricted,its not something anyone should be able to pick up at the local health shop,however if used correctly it holds enormous potential for depression,anxiety,insomnia among other things.
But because like a benzo its so potent,it is very easy to abuse it,even if it was not ones intention,and it can be for some very addicting.This is usualy the case with any succesful drug,the addiction potential and abuse.
Im personaly jumping hurdles to get this prescribed,i simply am habing trouble,i would love to switch places with u lol.
Posted by Pops_1 on June 28, 2006, at 11:57:31
In reply to Re: Medication woes...anyone tried Xyrem?, posted by willyee on June 27, 2006, at 23:05:15
I don't know if it would be helpful in your situation, but he seems to have suggested Xyrem fairly casually. I've heard several reports that its great for social phobia but looking into it I thought it had terribly strict regulations limiting prescriptions to rigorously documented cases of narcolepsy. Have you been diagnosed with narcolepsy?
(Or maybe my info is wrong?)
Posted by lymom3 on June 28, 2006, at 12:10:17
In reply to Re: Medication woes...anyone tried Xyrem?, posted by Pops_1 on June 28, 2006, at 11:57:31
my psychologist called the pdoc and that's what they came up with. i have been on so many different things with no real help. right now sleeping is an issue but i think that is because there are other problems. i don't want to just throw a sleeping pill at it and say that i got some sleep. i don't want to feel "hung over" the next day either. i will talk to the pdoc myself this evening and give him my concerns and see if his reasoning changes. when all is right in my life, i sleep fine. when i'm not sleeping well, that is telling me that i need to right something because i'm out of whack, not just disguise or cover up the problem. that's my concern with trying that stuff. sounds like way more than i need.
Posted by willyee on June 28, 2006, at 14:16:25
In reply to Re: Medication woes...anyone tried Xyrem? » Pops_1, posted by lymom3 on June 28, 2006, at 12:10:17
> my psychologist called the pdoc and that's what they came up with. i have been on so many different things with no real help. right now sleeping is an issue but i think that is because there are other problems. i don't want to just throw a sleeping pill at it and say that i got some sleep. i don't want to feel "hung over" the next day either. i will talk to the pdoc myself this evening and give him my concerns and see if his reasoning changes. when all is right in my life, i sleep fine. when i'm not sleeping well, that is telling me that i need to right something because i'm out of whack, not just disguise or cover up the problem. that's my concern with trying that stuff. sounds like way more than i need.
Did u read my post,that is what makes xyrem so unique,upond xyrem leaving,a dopamine surge occurs,this leaves the user awake and alert in the morning and last most of the day.
This is most likly why they are considering this drug over common sedtives like ambien,they are hoping to kill two birds with one stone.
As to the person posted above,xyrem is now perfectly legal to prescribe off label for things as common as clinical insomnia....its at the docters discression.
Posted by willyee on June 28, 2006, at 14:27:44
In reply to Re: Medication woes...anyone tried Xyrem? » Pops_1, posted by lymom3 on June 28, 2006, at 12:10:17
> my psychologist called the pdoc and that's what they came up with. i have been on so many different things with no real help. right now sleeping is an issue but i think that is because there are other problems. i don't want to just throw a sleeping pill at it and say that i got some sleep. i don't want to feel "hung over" the next day either. i will talk to the pdoc myself this evening and give him my concerns and see if his reasoning changes. when all is right in my life, i sleep fine. when i'm not sleeping well, that is telling me that i need to right something because i'm out of whack, not just disguise or cover up the problem. that's my concern with trying that stuff. sounds like way more than i need.
Ah one comment i forgot is u say it sounds like way more than u need......possably so,however out of any sleep drug i know of,ambien lunesta etc.....xyrem actualy provides CORRECT sleep,even better than non medicated sleep,it provides the recuperative stage of sleep,where as benzos ambien etc and most sleep drugs actualy give off a incorrect sleep where u dont reach the correct stage of rem,this is hellish on a person the next day,especialy a narcolpetic who hasent had a correct sleep stage the night prior,xyrem provides them with the right sleep so they actualy get the recuperation they need.
Unfortunatly the docs my way dont even know what it is,but thats not saying much if u think about my p doc telling me lyrcia hasent come out on the market yet and is not a medication for anxiety anyway.
Wrong,double whammy wrong.
Posted by lymom3 on June 28, 2006, at 14:56:13
In reply to Re: Medication woes...anyone tried Xyrem?, posted by willyee on June 28, 2006, at 14:27:44
I just feel that is pretty radical for me. I would really like for him to say this is what I think is wrong with you and here's a medication to try to help you. Not just toss something at me to get me to sleep. To me that's just covering up the problem. Maybe I'm a nut (ya think!!)but I just want an answer...that's all. I am pretty apprehensive about trying something like that though...I have to go pick a script up for my son tonight...I'll talk to the pdoc more then. Maybe he'll convince me that it's an answer to my problem.
Posted by Jakeman on June 28, 2006, at 20:53:47
In reply to Re: Medication woes...anyone tried Xyrem? » willyee, posted by lymom3 on June 28, 2006, at 14:56:13
I've had discussions with my neurologist/sleep doctor about xyrem and it's something I'm considering. My understanding is that the major drawback is having to take is twice a night. But I wake up more than twice a night anyway. He said that he has about 200 patients using it. Some recreational users taking too much (usually the homemade version) and combining with alcohol have given it some bad media attention. Based on my research some positves are that it increases deep sleep, increases growth hormone, and is non-toxic.
warm regards, Jake
Posted by willyee on June 29, 2006, at 2:16:12
In reply to Re: Medication woes...anyone tried Xyrem? » lymom3, posted by Jakeman on June 28, 2006, at 20:53:47
> I've had discussions with my neurologist/sleep doctor about xyrem and it's something I'm considering. My understanding is that the major drawback is having to take is twice a night. But I wake up more than twice a night anyway. He said that he has about 200 patients using it. Some recreational users taking too much (usually the homemade version) and combining with alcohol have given it some bad media attention. Based on my research some positves are that it increases deep sleep, increases growth hormone, and is non-toxic.
>
> warm regards, Jake
Dont get me wrong GHB or pssh xyrem now,is a serious serious drug,one that should be a medication.However the hype over it had part to do with this....Xyrem was thought up long before ghb was illegal,in order to take a legal substance off the market there are legal steps that take some time.
UNLESS you provide to the court that its an IMMEDIATE danger to the public,this allows a direct removal.The date rape situation was terrable,but in no way is GHB responsable for more date rapes than acholol and roffies,or simply acholol alone.
The average person doesent even know what GHB is until u mention date rape drug,it was not a drug just anyone had.Yess many people abuse it,but the same goes for the tons of people who order xanax from overseas in enormous amounts,people will abuse drugs simple as that.
Like trypohan however,there were people who relied on GHB for sleep,for depression,for sexual dysfunction,and many other things.
What bothered me is the extremly harsh convictions that came down in a SNAP,FLASH,which had every day users being dragged out of there homes.
The suppliers,well they took the risk of handling such large amounts,but the everyday user who had no more than a sunny dee bottle were also snatched.
Now all this law did was take the avaialibty of a very pure and non toxic product,rentrewient etc,and left a wide spread of users resorting to ordering it in raw form gbl,which comes from companies labling it as all types of cleaners,who knows what purity it really is.
I know the drug in and out,almost all my remission periods invovled using this in mg increments,along with a AD,if u are using the correct dose for the correct reason,it is hard to become addicted to it.It is extremly dose dependeant on the reason of use.example anxiet/depression would require increments up to a gram tops depending on weight.
At the correct dose ghb gives a similiar effect as a benzo minus the depressive feeling.
In purity,it is also non toxic,and leaves the body as H2o.
It is off label,however i believe its off label use with still remain to sleep,the only data sheets out are in the form of very high doses of ghb which would absoutly be unsuitable for anxiety or depression,so if one was able to pull of getting it prescribed for such,id be in a absolute awe.......mainly because i dont think any doc would be able to provide dosage amounts as in comes pre dosed.
Well tooo bad,i think it would serve as a great option for mood disorders if done correctly,it has already been used in prescription form before un the trade name ALCOVER in italy,and there was no hysteria there,there medication was removed there at the request of the U.S at the time of the ban.
Just use logic,what sense does it make to present something as a total toxic hazard,then turn around tweak the name,raise the price 10 fold,and patent it.
People will reason this move as it being for specific illnessess.but a duck is a duck,its either bad for human consumption or its not.Least this is my view,i am hoping to get a call back from the docs who did my sleep study,there were problems that showed up,and i have yet to get my feed back info,but i GOT THE BILL !!!
Posted by Jakeman on June 29, 2006, at 2:34:26
In reply to Re: Medication woes...anyone tried Xyrem?, posted by willyee on June 29, 2006, at 2:16:12
From what I've read Xyrem works great for many people. Not always... as with most drugs. Look at the science and not at the hype.
warm regards, Jake
Posted by lymom3 on June 29, 2006, at 12:22:11
In reply to Medication woes...anyone tried Xyrem?, posted by lymom3 on June 27, 2006, at 14:42:53
I think that what is going to happen is that we are going to play with some mood stabilizers and anti depressants. I have a stash of Xanax from my anxiety days, so I've been taking that to sleep the last couple of nights. Not great, but better than nothing. I need sleep, there is no doubt about that, but I need to even out more than sleep. I want to feel like I could possible have a normal range of emotions again not this roller coaster that I've been on this last year.
Will talk to pdoc this evening...
Posted by willyee on June 29, 2006, at 14:19:47
In reply to Re: Medication woes...anyone tried Xyrem?, posted by lymom3 on June 29, 2006, at 12:22:11
> I think that what is going to happen is that we are going to play with some mood stabilizers and anti depressants. I have a stash of Xanax from my anxiety days, so I've been taking that to sleep the last couple of nights. Not great, but better than nothing. I need sleep, there is no doubt about that, but I need to even out more than sleep. I want to feel like I could possible have a normal range of emotions again not this roller coaster that I've been on this last year.
> Will talk to pdoc this evening...
Well im a FIRM believer in going with ur gut,i prefer to go with my instinct over everthing,even my p doc.
I read as much as i can,and i use all the research and etc to decide what id feel most safe and secure using,so i understand,just wanted to make sure u knew about xyrem and why it is a option,but if u do the leg work in research,go with what u honestly believe will help you,sometimes at least for me this meant disagreeing with my doc.Good luck
Posted by lymom3 on June 29, 2006, at 14:37:21
In reply to Re: Medication woes...anyone tried Xyrem?, posted by willyee on June 29, 2006, at 14:19:47
I value any and all input. I think I'm just so worn out right now that I don't necessarily know what's best for me. I finally have a tag team of doctors, pdoc and psychologist, that are really good guys. They talk and listen. I never have less than 1/2 with the psychiatrist. In the past I was with practices where it was the norm to wait 30-60 minutes to get into your scheduled appointment and get rushed out the door in 5 minutes flat. I don't think any combo of meds that I was on was given much of a fair chance when the docs rotated and didn't listen to you anyways. All I want is to feel better and hopefully sooner than later!!
Posted by Phillipa on June 29, 2006, at 20:50:44
In reply to Re: Medication woes...anyone tried Xyrem?, posted by lymom3 on June 29, 2006, at 14:37:21
Lymon that's why I'm traveling a total of l0hours tomorrow to see my old pdoc. This one wanted to give me 80mg of geodon and refused to treat me without a second opinion. I googled geodon and that's the highest dose. He knows I won't take it. He just wants patients that know nothing. When ever I state a fact he hates it. Oh and I'm not bipolar or schizohrenic. Just depressed with anxiety. I'm bringing the sameple bottles of the 80mg bottles with me to show her. Maybe she can do something about it. Love Phillipa
Posted by lymom3 on June 30, 2006, at 13:39:30
In reply to Re: Medication woes...anyone tried Xyrem? » lymom3, posted by Phillipa on June 29, 2006, at 20:50:44
even if the docs get into it for the right reason, being a pdoc sure has to be a tough job day in and day out. wouldn't take long to get burned out i don't think. i read a stat that in Missouri where I live only 15% of the licensed psychiatrists are actually practicing. Telling statistic I think.
Well...today is day one of Lamictal. Can't tell how I really feel as I was up all night with a computer crisis at work so I'm still here in my clothes from yesterday...i don't think that anyone's noticed...lol
Here's to hoping that Lamictal helps and I don't get the dreaded rash.
Posted by Phillipa on June 30, 2006, at 21:57:36
In reply to Re: Medication woes...anyone tried Xyrem?, posted by lymom3 on June 30, 2006, at 13:39:30
Lymon don't worry about the rash. I saw my old pdoc today and she is around 70. And has only seen one case of the rash. It is from the neck up with fever. All she had to do was stop the med and it went away. I'm going back myself on it tonight. Babblemail me and I'll give you my e-mail address and we can compare notes. Love Phillipa
Posted by jonathanupr on July 3, 2006, at 1:03:08
In reply to Medication woes...anyone tried Xyrem?, posted by lymom3 on June 27, 2006, at 14:42:53
I can share similarities with the ADHD diagnosis... My issue pretty much rests in a few areas. Once I got on a stim (Adderall) my OCD went rampant and I couldn't sleep for more than 3 hours without waking up. So, as the stim helped out greatly with concentration, drive, and creativity, I had to deal with the latter 2 issues of OCD and insomnia. Though, I don't know if I can say my sleep issue is really insomnia, as there are narcoleptic symptoms as well..... That's also why I love the stim, because it keeps me awake throughout the day...prior to that I was sleeping in or trying to work a job which flopped in the end because I just couldn't do more than a 4 to 5 hour shift. With a stim I can do a good 7 to 8 hour shift, and at times I stick around beyond such hours.
I am in the move right now to try out Xyrem because of its low cognitive side effect profile. In the studies on Xyrem that I have read up upon, individuals have still kept using an amphetamine based stim that they were using prior to taking the Xyrem. So you shouldn't necesarily have to stop taking a stim because you are taking Xyrem.
As of right now Xyrem is approved only for narcolepsy so the insurance companies aren't going to cover much beyond that (tight a$$es with an agenda to not pay-out)...and Xyrem is running around $500.00 a month for a good dose....which is a rip off, GHB in the past sold very cheaply at GNC until it was taken off the shelf. My point is that Xyrem is very good for insomnia as well, and due to some bureacratical issues it is being held back a bit. Pretty much the gov't doesn't want you to be having this stuff, which is odd. Xyrem could very well be produced generically and already is produced very cheaply, it isn't a hard make.
But anyways, my thought on taking Xyrem was in regards to having hope of waking up in the morning with freshness and not feeling exhausted all the time (regardless of sleeping 6 to 8 hours straight now that I'm taking sleep meds), and then being able to use the Adderall to treat my ADHD issues and not my fatigue/energy issues. Would be a good fit I think. Plus, Xyrem relieves anxiety from what I've read, which would further help with my OCD.
Hope all goes well, it's worth a try if you have a chance at taking it. The function of it is pretty much to keep the individual in stages 3 and 4 sleep (deep sleep) where a lot of our recuperation and energy stores are built back up. It raises dopamine and GABA while lowering glutamate (this is at the ideal dose). I haven't heard of it working to help REM stage 5 out at all, but more or less that it inhibits this stage....... there's a mixed line out there in thought, some docs feel that neurotransmitters are re-produced and re-plenished during REM and others see the brain as being overworked in over-excessive REM sleep.
This is the end of the thread.
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