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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by blueberry on June 11, 2006, at 18:19:13
In reply to Euphoria inducing Med Combinations, posted by PsychoPharmaFiender on June 10, 2006, at 17:14:24
Ritalin, adderall, tyrosine, and d-phenylalanine all produce euphoria for me. Sadly it only lasts a few hours and then followup doses do not restore the initial effects, and in the end I become more depressed from continued use or from the withdrawal. So I'm screwed either way. That is a dead end road for me.
Amisulpride provided a short 2 day euphoria when starting it, probably due to the flood of dopaminie similar to the other drugs mentioned above.
One med out of dozens I have tried that produced such a good antidepressant effect that it was close to euphoria, but not quite there, was adrafinil. By itself not. But in combination with an ssri and given a few weeks it was amazing. It showed no sign of poopout or tolerance even after a year. I think that is because it doesn't boost neuro levels thus inducing tolerance or adaptation, but instead acts as an exciter and agonist of receptors. Its metabolite modafinil didn't work like it at all.
So basically, for me anyway, dopamine equals euphoria. A high stakes losing game though.
The closest thing to it that can last and last is adrafinil plus ssri combo.
Posted by Phillipa on June 11, 2006, at 18:25:19
In reply to Re: Euphoria inducing Med Combinations, posted by blueberry on June 11, 2006, at 18:19:13
A runner's high is not experienced unless you run at least 30minutes and I ride my bike up and down hills and have more energy when done. I really believe the brain produces endorphins from excercise . The problem is people don't do it long enough to get the benfit. Love Phillipa
Posted by Phillipa on June 11, 2006, at 18:42:02
In reply to Re: Euphoria inducing Med Combinations, posted by Phillipa on June 11, 2006, at 18:25:19
Before I was depressed it worked but now it improves it. I don't get high. Just able to accomplish some thing afterwards. I wish I could ride in the am that maybe I'm have more motivation all day but I'm night time excerciser. Probably from working 3-ll or 7-7 when I was working. Now I sleep till ll am. Love Phillipa
Posted by willyee on June 11, 2006, at 21:59:34
In reply to Re: Euphoria inducing Med Combinations » SLS, posted by linkadge on June 11, 2006, at 15:52:57
> Well, most people know that pleasure comes in gradients. You get a little bit, and you generally just want more.
>
> I don't know a whole lot about it, but I do know that it works to constantly reset itself. I know of a few mechanisms such as the fact that people who abuse DAT inhibitors generally have long term compensatory changes in DAT expression. Drug free cocaine users generally have much higher DAT expression for a long period after drug sobriety. The same can actually be said for mice raised on methylphenidate. Adaptational changes to receptor expression also happens within the neucleus accumbens. I know that repeated nicotine exposure generally changes levels of d3 receptors in the neucleus accumbens. I've also read about how when you take certain stimulants, there are compensatory increases in cholinergic mechanisms to try and counteract it. I read a study that suggested that mice raised on certain stimulants and antidepressants had compensatory changes in acetycholinsterase, that lasted long after drug discontinuation.
>
> I think it comes more down to glutamate release in the region than anything. A neurotransmitter may be responsible for intiating release, but you can only release so much at one point before the cells need to take breaks to recharge.
>
> On the frontpage of www.biopsychiatry.com there is a lot of talk about how just about every drug we have in our collection falls short of the ability to produce perpetual euphoria.
>
> It is coded within our genes for us to think that we have the ability to find everlasting happiness. Thats what keeps us going. Though, it is also within our genes that we never find everlasting happiness, since that too keeps us going.
>
>
> Linkadge
>
>
>
>
>With all do respect how can u be so sure that "normal" people,are a number of people dont contain a mood very close to a state of Euphoria,keeping in mind that a state of Euphoria doesent mean simply "high" rather some people are always upbeat and usualy in a better than "ok" mood and these people usualy are capbable of handling stressful events with some ease.
Also and although u kinds skimmed it,im speaking to a more generalized theory,one in which it seems that people,mainly depressed people shouldent seek Euphoria but rather just feel ok.
Now id love a feeling of any total consistency,but on the same note why should we feel guilty or wrong in wanting euphoria,its almost taboo.We get this general thinking that we are depressed cause were not supposed to feel good,these people who say this i believe are among those who simply cant understand what feels like,and personaly i believe if anyone did deserve to feel some Euphoria in life,then anyone who lived with a clinical emotional disorder should be some of the first in line.
I watch certain friends,and the time it takes them to become excited about something,when hearing simple good news u can see a form of euphoria rise in there eyes as they are hearing it,then u see a entire emotional reaction,they do not stay feeling good,they easly escalte with proper postive stimulation.
Me on the other hand,if im not feeling well,i might appreciate news and the such,but im in a pyhsical state and i simply cant feel how i believe i should,and from watching others closly i notice again in them its autmatic like saying ouch to the touch of a hot iron,the fact this feeling doesent process in me is just more evidence in my eyes that something simply isnt right.
Posted by SLS on June 12, 2006, at 8:23:11
In reply to Re: Euphoria inducing Med Combinations » SLS, posted by linkadge on June 11, 2006, at 15:52:57
> Well, most people know that pleasure comes in gradients. You get a little bit, and you generally just want more.
>
> I don't know a whole lot about it, but I do know that it works to constantly reset itself. I know of a few mechanisms such as the fact that people who abuse DAT inhibitors generally have long term compensatory changes in DAT expression. Drug free cocaine users generally have much higher DAT expression for a long period after drug sobriety. The same can actually be said for mice raised on methylphenidate. Adaptational changes to receptor expression also happens within the neucleus accumbens. I know that repeated nicotine exposure generally changes levels of d3 receptors in the neucleus accumbens. I've also read about how when you take certain stimulants, there are compensatory increases in cholinergic mechanisms to try and counteract it. I read a study that suggested that mice raised on certain stimulants and antidepressants had compensatory changes in acetycholinsterase, that lasted long after drug discontinuation.
There is no doubt that antidepressants produce long-term, perhaps life-long, changes in CNS function. Evidence for this is the observation that one develops a refractoriness to a drug that had helped them on previous occasions. A personal observation that might support this notion is that MAOIs no longer prevent me from dreaming. My guess is that they no longer suppress REM. When discontinuing an MAOI, I no longer experience rebound dreaming, perhaps indicative of a lack of REM rebound. Another observation is that I experience little, if any, anticholinergic side effects from taking TCAs, even after periods of abstinence. There are more, but you get the idea.
- Scott
Posted by SLS on June 12, 2006, at 10:54:27
In reply to Linkadge-Counterargument regarding Reward Pathways, posted by PsychoPharmaFiender on June 11, 2006, at 16:43:55
> If the brain is so good at maintaining homeostasis
Too good.
I imagine it is the ability of the brain to maintain homeostasis that produces treatment resistance to antidepressants and the phenomenon of tachyphylaxis. Actually, it might be the brain's failed attempt to maintain homeostasis that produces the antidepressant effect. The system is reset, but to a different setting; the resulting dynamics more approximating the original healthy state.
Just pondering...
- Scott
Posted by honeybee on June 12, 2006, at 11:14:46
In reply to Re: Euphoria inducing Med Combinations » linkadge, posted by SLS on June 12, 2006, at 8:23:11
I sometimes am amazed at my brain's ability to ratchet me homostatically back to my depressed state. It's really quite impressive.
Posted by fairywings on June 12, 2006, at 15:10:52
In reply to Re: Euphoria inducing Med Combinations, posted by Phillipa on June 11, 2006, at 18:42:02
Phillipa, I'll lend you a couple of my kids - they'll get you up LONG before 11! ; )
fw
Posted by fairywings on June 12, 2006, at 15:16:01
In reply to Euphoria inducing Med Combinations, posted by PsychoPharmaFiender on June 10, 2006, at 17:14:24
I've never experienced euphoria...have no idea what it feels like.
I'm on one of those med combos now. I'm able to function so much better, but no euphoria. Since the extreme exercise worked so well for you, maybe that's a better idea than to keep trying to find a drug combo which might poop out on you in a short period of time? It's better for your body, probably better for your brain if you can do it consistently.fw
Posted by willyee on June 12, 2006, at 15:42:10
In reply to Re: Linkadge-Counterargument regarding Reward Path, posted by SLS on June 12, 2006, at 10:54:27
At times the Maoi im on has caused terrable dreaming,vivid nightmares,others it seems to prevent them,i dont think we have anything solid but theories,nothing more.
Posted by linkadge on June 12, 2006, at 15:55:49
In reply to Re: Euphoria inducing Med Combinations, posted by willyee on June 11, 2006, at 21:59:34
Most research questionaires that most people do not live in a state of near euphoria. A high proportion of people (in canada at least) have considered suicide (in the past year). I'd say that most people are closer to dysthemia than euphoria.
It is just a foolish game we play to think that *normal* is some magical state of near euphoria. Life is often crappy for "normal" people too.
We are no longer this select group of depressed people. Half the world is on antidepressants. What on earth is normal now anyway?
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on June 12, 2006, at 15:59:11
In reply to Re: Linkadge-Counterargument regarding Reward Path, posted by SLS on June 12, 2006, at 10:54:27
Good points.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on June 12, 2006, at 16:04:47
In reply to Re: Euphoria inducing Med Combinations » PsychoPharmaFiender, posted by fairywings on June 12, 2006, at 15:16:01
My brain just keeps pulling me back to reality really. Reality sucks for me right now. So I don't expect any abnormal remission. Sure I can escape it for a little while, but reality is reality.
Just like a rat who knows it is going to be systematically electroshocked. It will develop depression.
Sure, I wish that I had a loftier purpose for the way I feel. It sucks for me to think that I am just another byproduct of the forced swim test which we call "life".
Linkadge
Posted by rjlockhart on June 12, 2006, at 16:25:50
In reply to Re: Euphoria inducing Med Combinations, posted by linkadge on June 12, 2006, at 16:04:47
Back in the 1960's Dexamyl (dexamphetamine 15mg-amobarbital90mg)
Very abused. Elvis got his prescriptions i read this from varies doctors.
I have taken stimulants for 10 years. I rerember all the things, and combos when i was really having a hard time.
One time i took Dexamphetamine + Pentobarbital (Nembutal) which was an old prescription from 1992. It felt stimulaiting then euphoric at the same time becasuse it was easing. It stopped the amphetamine like motivation but it just made me feel social. I was so load at parties i woundt shut up, because pentobarbital inhibited social inhibition.
Thats my put. Google Dexamyl on the web, "for the verberally inhibitited"
ROFL
thats my put
Matt
Posted by zeugma on June 12, 2006, at 17:11:25
In reply to Re: Euphoria inducing Med Combinations, posted by linkadge on June 12, 2006, at 16:04:47
the forced swim test which we call "life".>>
The reason I hold behavioral pharmacologists in such high esteem is that their procedures for screening drugs produced, in addition to predictive validity for antidepressants, genius metaphors for life. is there any better description for that awful feeling at which one realizes that one is at the mercy of an unyielding fate than "learned helplessness"?
I, of course, hold the rats in high esteem as well. Anyone who's looked into into an animal's eyes knows they are essentially the same as us when it comes to the basic emotions- fear, sadness, and maybe even desire for love, maybe even desire for freedom.
-z
Posted by linkadge on June 12, 2006, at 18:23:32
In reply to Re: Euphoria inducing Med Combinations » linkadge, posted by zeugma on June 12, 2006, at 17:11:25
It sickens me when I learn about how animals are treated in the search for stronger painkillers or antidepressants.
Perhaps the suffering we go through on a daily basis is part of a grand scheme clinical trial of drugs for space aliens. Perhaps we're already on drugs given to us by space aliens, and we are subjected to irritable bosses, tax increases, and crappy coffee machines, just to see how their drugs will perform. Maybe earth is just one big clinical trial for the space aliens. The people we think are happy and all, well they must've got the good drugs.
Linkadge
Posted by zeugma on June 12, 2006, at 19:12:12
In reply to Re: Euphoria inducing Med Combinations, posted by linkadge on June 12, 2006, at 18:23:32
Perhaps the suffering we go through on a daily basis is part of a grand scheme clinical trial of drugs for space aliens>>
if so, then the aliens are much like us.
we are much like the animals we torture.
This thread is hardly euphoria-inducing. I am happy, myself, if I can get through the day without feeling like an alien myself.
Anyone who has gotten the slightest benefit from a psychotropic drug should have a feeling of gratitude towards the rodents who died for its development.
-z
Posted by PsychoPharmaFiender on June 14, 2006, at 0:24:17
In reply to Euphoria inducing Med Combinations, posted by PsychoPharmaFiender on June 10, 2006, at 17:14:24
Linkadge, I dont know if you have ever smoked marijuana but I have and it always gives me euphoria, never poops out and totally relieves my ADHD, can focus 100 percent, yet my normal state is treatment resistant chronic depression. Im now on an mao inhibitor, never tried before. But I always know that I at least have the "Sticky Icky" to fall abck on if things dont work out.
Posted by linkadge on June 14, 2006, at 17:37:06
In reply to Re: Euphoria inducing Med Combinations-Linkadge, posted by PsychoPharmaFiender on June 14, 2006, at 0:24:17
I have smoked it a few times. I agree with you, it can be an effective treatment for a host of psychiatric problems. It helped my concentration, sleep, anxiety, and mood all in one.
It would give me a bit of a buzz, but it was far from any form of *perpetual* euphoria. The euphoric feeling would only last so long, and there were withdrawl symptoms.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on June 14, 2006, at 17:38:00
In reply to Re: Euphoria inducing Med Combinations-Linkadge, posted by linkadge on June 14, 2006, at 17:37:06
Acutally, the "high" from marajuanna actually got in the way of the theraputic effect I got from it.
Linkadge
Posted by helpme on July 8, 2006, at 16:25:45
In reply to Re: Euphoria inducing Med Combinations » willyee, posted by linkadge on June 12, 2006, at 15:55:49
Of course euphoria is not a normal state to be in- and no one could ever fuction going through life that way! As for what's "normal", I don't think it's too much to ask to want to achieve a state of "feeling ok" much or most of the time, with some fluctuation expected. Feeling like life is a curse, wishing one was never born=not ok- and of course people want to escape that feeling!!! The appeal of euphoria, in my opinion, can be a understandable desperation for a "vacation" from emotional hell.
I don't think most people on this board think they will live in permanent euphoria.That said, I think Phillippa's comment about excercise high is right on. But for me, I found that I have to work REALLY hard, REALLY push at my max for about an hour to break into that zone- and cardio-but it's SO worth it.
> Most research questionaires that most people do not live in a state of near euphoria. A high proportion of people (in canada at least) have considered suicide (in the past year). I'd say that most people are closer to dysthemia than euphoria.
>
> It is just a foolish game we play to think that *normal* is some magical state of near euphoria. Life is often crappy for "normal" people too.
>
> We are no longer this select group of depressed people. Half the world is on antidepressants. What on earth is normal now anyway?
>
>
> Linkadge
Posted by helpme on July 8, 2006, at 16:29:20
In reply to Re: Euphoria inducing Med Combinations, posted by helpme on July 8, 2006, at 16:25:45
I couldn't help but notice that many of the people in my Spin classes are training for Triathalon- and they do seem to be a pretty happy bunch overall- light, jokey--I mean, many of them have a lightness that I envy, and it's not drugs, and it doesn't seem faked. I personally would find this particular quality of theirs impossible to fake. I wonder if it's from endorphins built up from all their tough physical training.
Posted by helpme on July 8, 2006, at 16:31:13
In reply to Re: Euphoria inducing Med Combinations-Linkadge, posted by PsychoPharmaFiender on June 14, 2006, at 0:24:17
Is it ok to smoke pot while on an MAOI then? I was wondering if that was safe...
> Linkadge, I dont know if you have ever smoked marijuana but I have and it always gives me euphoria, never poops out and totally relieves my ADHD, can focus 100 percent, yet my normal state is treatment resistant chronic depression. Im now on an mao inhibitor, never tried before. But I always know that I at least have the "Sticky Icky" to fall abck on if things dont work out.
Posted by helpme on July 8, 2006, at 16:41:38
In reply to Re: Euphoria inducing Med Combinations, posted by linkadge on June 12, 2006, at 18:23:32
....TOO much pot is never a great idea, though.
The space aliens are not after you, I guarentee it.And "evil" (for lack of a better, more accurate word) is sort of part of life-designed in to it in fact. Animals torture and eat each other, chimpanzees are documented to have wars, everyone dies, etc etc. It won't go away. I am personally saddened by the animal testing, agree it MUST be kept to a minimum, but I am very, very thankful for everyone here who is on an antidepressent and alive, maybe even thriving and living a good and kind life- and not a suicide casualty-thanks to those mouse experiments. Not so simple to judge about animal testing in sweeping ways, I'd say.
> It sickens me when I learn about how animals are treated in the search for stronger painkillers or antidepressants.
>
> Perhaps the suffering we go through on a daily basis is part of a grand scheme clinical trial of drugs for space aliens. Perhaps we're already on drugs given to us by space aliens, and we are subjected to irritable bosses, tax increases, and crappy coffee machines, just to see how their drugs will perform. Maybe earth is just one big clinical trial for the space aliens. The people we think are happy and all, well they must've got the good drugs.
>
>
> Linkadge
>
>
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Posted by helpme on July 8, 2006, at 16:49:26
In reply to Re: Euphoria inducing Med Combinations » linkadge, posted by zeugma on June 12, 2006, at 17:11:25
There is an inherent sadness in life-and a lot of destruction- but I think the mentally well and healthy people have managed to come to terms with that. I don't think they take glee in it- that's not what I'm saying. That would be very sick. But the mentally well are not overwelmed by feeling "doomed", nor are they clinically, dysfunctionally depressed either. I get the drift that they try to notice kindness, try to be kind themselves...You might enjoy reading some basic, clear Buddhist books- they comment on this, and one might even say this is the big question that they grapple with. A few titles are: Buddhism Without Beliefs, Buddhism Plain and Simple--but a great uplifting and thought-provoking book is The Tao of Pooh. It's a classic, easy, funny, and always makes me feel better.
> the forced swim test which we call "life".>>
>
> The reason I hold behavioral pharmacologists in such high esteem is that their procedures for screening drugs produced, in addition to predictive validity for antidepressants, genius metaphors for life. is there any better description for that awful feeling at which one realizes that one is at the mercy of an unyielding fate than "learned helplessness"?
>
> I, of course, hold the rats in high esteem as well. Anyone who's looked into into an animal's eyes knows they are essentially the same as us when it comes to the basic emotions- fear, sadness, and maybe even desire for love, maybe even desire for freedom.
>
> -z
>
>
This is the end of the thread.
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