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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 21 to 45 of 45. Go back in thread:
Posted by linkadge on March 27, 2006, at 15:18:51
In reply to Re: ADs, posted by Meri-Tuuli on March 27, 2006, at 11:52:29
Good point. This is serious buisness for the drug companies. I'm sure they work to couteract all possibilities that might lead to sales decline.
Linkadge
Posted by vainamoinen on March 27, 2006, at 16:44:40
In reply to Any more studies done on SSRI/corscrew receptors?, posted by linkadge on March 26, 2006, at 17:00:05
My experience has been, after being on an SSRI for about 6 years now, that if I decrease the dosage in anything but an excruciatingly slow manner I go into a tailspin of depression.
So in a way it's not unlike methadone or heroin or any other addictive drug.
Now the flip side is that I am convinced that if it were not for antidepressants I would be dead by my own hand a long time ago.
So I'm strung out on prozac. Seems like a small price to pay for the quality of life I enjoy now.
And if I'm fattening the wallets of big pharm so be it. I'm also contributing towards their R&D budgets which may find a cure for cancer, heart disease, or diabetes.
The more cynical view would be that a cure for any of those maladies is not in the best interest of big pharm. But even a treatment of lifelong medication is better than the alternative is it not?
Posted by linkadge on March 27, 2006, at 19:03:20
In reply to Re: Any more studies done on SSRI/corscrew recepto, posted by vainamoinen on March 27, 2006, at 16:44:40
When I came off SSRI's my depression plunged to a level that it had never been before medicating. It stayed that way for a long time untill I felt somewhat like I did before taking the medications.
If I was to decide to medicate again, I would have to be prepared to face those consequences.
Linkadge
Posted by summerflowers on March 28, 2006, at 6:43:15
In reply to Re: Any more studies done on SSRI/corscrew recepto, posted by linkadge on March 27, 2006, at 19:03:20
I used to think SSRIs on their own were as harmless as lollies.But something definatly permanantly changed in me since I went on and off them twice.I dont think their harmless anymore.
Posted by linkadge on March 28, 2006, at 7:59:27
In reply to Re: Any more studies done on SSRI/corscrew recepto, posted by summerflowers on March 28, 2006, at 6:43:15
I find a lot of people are humbled by the first time they withdrawl from an AD for whatever reason.
I think that it is interesting how a lot of people's opinions change during/after withdrawl.
The drug goes from the best thing since sliced bread, to well, a little less than that.
Linkadge
Posted by vainamoinen on March 28, 2006, at 14:32:38
In reply to Re: Any more studies done on SSRI/corscrew recepto » summerflowers, posted by linkadge on March 28, 2006, at 7:59:27
>
> I think that it is interesting how a lot of people's opinions change during/after withdrawl.
>
Ha, tell me about it. Even though the physical symptoms of Prozac withdrawal are nothing compared to the zaps you get from withdrawing from Effexor or Paxil, the depression is daunting. I dare say that the depression following AD withdrawal is worse than the depression the AD's were meant to treat. That's kinda effed up.
Posted by linkadge on March 28, 2006, at 15:47:36
In reply to Re: Any more studies done on SSRI/corscrew recepto, posted by vainamoinen on March 28, 2006, at 14:32:38
Its really effed up. It has been a year since being off SSRI's and many things for me aren't the same. I have problems walking that I can't seem to explain to doctors. Problems with ballance. My vision too was very dim for a long time after SSRI withdrawl. Another problem was that in myself the withdrawl depression included strong suicidiality where none had existed previously. I never suffered panic attacks either (anxiety but no panic attacks), during SSRI withdrawl I had some really bad panic attacks.
So while the drugs may help, people need to know about these things. If I had knew then what I know now, I would have not taken them.
Linkadge
Posted by Phillipa on March 28, 2006, at 19:36:34
In reply to Re: Any more studies done on SSRI/corscrew recepto » vainamoinen, posted by linkadge on March 28, 2006, at 15:47:36
That's it!!!!!!No more SSRI's for me. I've already cut down on the luvox and my anxiety is getting worse even with the valium. So link did the panic anc anxiety finally go away. Love Phillipa
Posted by linkadge on March 28, 2006, at 21:53:20
In reply to Re: Any more studies done on SSRI/corscrew recepto » linkadge, posted by Phillipa on March 28, 2006, at 19:36:34
Eventually the panic attacks subsided. But for information, If I had to do the withdrawl again, it would have been done more slowly.
There seems to be a tendancy to withdrawl faster and faster as you reach nothing. Don't fall into that tendancy.
Linkadge
Posted by Glydin on March 28, 2006, at 22:25:15
In reply to Re: Any more studies done on SSRI/corscrew recepto » linkadge, posted by Phillipa on March 28, 2006, at 19:36:34
Did you read the other post?
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20060322/msgs/625227.html
I hope you make your decisions carefully and look at more than one school of thought on the subject....
Posted by ian34 on March 28, 2006, at 22:39:28
In reply to Any more studies done on SSRI/corscrew receptors?, posted by linkadge on March 26, 2006, at 17:00:05
> I remember reading that one study which was done showing that high dose of SSRI's dammaged brain cells in a similar manner to serotonin releasers like MDMA. I was wondering if any more studies had been done allong those lines.
>
> That one study basically concluded that more studies should be done before the drugs can be concluded as safe. Why have no other studies been undertaken ?
>
> LinkadgeHmm, well according to scientology drugs and psychiatry are a tool of the evil intergalactic warlord, Keno, to suppress our knowledge that we used to have god-like powers. There is a similar bias with the website that you linked. Anyway taking mdma is like taking a bottle of ads all at once
Posted by yxibow on March 29, 2006, at 0:20:41
In reply to Re: Any more studies done on SSRI/corscrew receptors? » Glydin, posted by linkadge on March 26, 2006, at 20:23:18
> Well this is it, although, I wouldn't call it what I feel is "comfortable".
>
> The SSRI's have not been around long enough. Simply put, we lack long term safety data.Actually the first drug that could be called an SSRI has been around for 37 years, Clomipramine (Anafranil), a tricyclic with SSRI properties, although only approved in late 1989 in the US. Zimelidine was approved in the early 80s by what is now Astra-Zeneca, and banned eventually due to the rare Guillain-Barré syndrome and other multiple organ issues. It was followed shortly by Prozac (1987) which was derived from studies of Benadryl, which it is related to, among other things. So we have around at least 20 years here and more elsewhere of true SSRI history. I'm not saying we know everything about them but we have had quite a number of patient-years of medication.
Posted by yxibow on March 29, 2006, at 0:36:40
In reply to Re: Any more studies done on SSRI/corscrew recepto, posted by ian34 on March 28, 2006, at 22:39:28
> > I remember reading that one study which was done showing that high dose of SSRI's dammaged brain cells in a similar manner to serotonin releasers like MDMA. I was wondering if any more studies had been done allong those lines.
> >
> > That one study basically concluded that more studies should be done before the drugs can be concluded as safe. Why have no other studies been undertaken ?
> >
> > Linkadge
>
> Hmm, well according to scientology drugs and psychiatry are a tool of the evil intergalactic warlord, Keno, to suppress our knowledge that we used to have god-like powers.
And saying or opening your mouth to anything rational about Scientology could land you with harassment, spying, litigation, and endless things. The organization was founded by a failed science fiction writer. Its a wierd place, the main mothership here in Southern Californa, guards stand outside the place, along Hollywood Blvd. Creepy really. And yes, they have done quite a lot of damage about psychiatry. But we have freedom of "religion" here. Other countries have tried to prosecute them with middling success. And of course it is right there among the glitterati like Tom Cruise and company who can afford the ponzi schemes the organization extracts money from people. Not to mention their stance on homosexuality which is another story, it is unclear but likely that L. Ron Hubbard's son, Quentin Hubbard committed suicide over that.
I'm sure I will get an earful on this, but thats my stance on it, I've known people who have gotten sucked into it.
Posted by summerflowers on March 29, 2006, at 2:21:52
In reply to Re: Any more studies done on SSRI/corscrew recepto » ian34, posted by yxibow on March 29, 2006, at 0:36:40
I find scientology interesting.I also sometimes wish id stuck to my younger days of drinking my old mans whiskey and smoking the odd marujuana. Since being on and off SSRIs iv had weight problems as in bloating that havent come right,and I feel foggy like not quite myself,things dont feel the same,and I can def put it all back to when I started those pills.I also remember the first time I took them they were the best thing.It felt like I was seeing the world through different eyes.I felt really in tune with the crowds around me.?
Posted by linkadge on March 29, 2006, at 14:05:11
In reply to Re: Any more studies done on SSRI/corscrew recepto, posted by ian34 on March 28, 2006, at 22:39:28
I did not link drugawareness.org.
The study done which showed that SSRI's caused corkscrewed/shriveled receptors was *not* done by an antimedication organization. This study was fairly mainstream actually, you can find it posted on other reputable sites by googling it.
I understand that SSRI's and MDMA are different drugs, but the study is suggesting that they can impact serotonergic neurons in a similar way. I was a unsubstantiated beleif, that only serotonin releasers like MDMA were capable of such issues.
Admittedly, the dose was high. But, these changes were noted (I believe) at as little as 10x an equivilant human dose, after only 4 days.
The point being, that it is probably advantagious for follow-up studies to clarify the effects.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on March 29, 2006, at 14:16:31
In reply to Re: Any more studies done on SSRI/corscrew recepto » linkadge, posted by yxibow on March 29, 2006, at 0:20:41
I agree, we have patient years, but this does not conclude safety.
For instance, we have patient years on antipsychotics, but only recently have we attained the type of imaging necessary to confirm that the drugs actually can lead to structural abnormalities in the brain. I mean we could observe problems, but it seems that medical science needs to see thing under a microscope before it can be called a fact.
So, while it is anecdotal that the drugs may cause problems, poop-out, dependance, cardiovascular, cognative, I think that we are approaching a time that we may be able to confirm or dispute such reports with more accuracy, than we were 30 yrs ago.
Its the same think with pregnancy. While mothers have been using the drugs during pregnancy for a long time, we only now are conducting well designed studies to *sses the risk for child. So why has it taken us this long to reach those conclsusions, despite a suspected risk ?
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on March 29, 2006, at 14:22:47
In reply to Re: Any more studies done on SSRI/corscrew recepto » ian34, posted by yxibow on March 29, 2006, at 0:36:40
I don't really know how scientology got caught up in this.
I think there is a tendancy to not want to believe potential probelems with the medications we ingest, and so we try to compartmentalize the information. Oh, Linkadge is just one of "those", Tom Cruises.
But don't you think that we should look actually face such studies, and try and asess the implications of their conclusions independantly of our fears?
Linkadge
Posted by tizza on March 29, 2006, at 18:06:26
In reply to Re: Any more studies done on SSRI/corscrew recepto, posted by linkadge on March 29, 2006, at 14:22:47
I want to contribute to this thread by saying that I think Link is doing a very good thing. He is getting us to talk and debate the very reason why we come here. I personally agree with literally every issue he has raised in this thread.
It's passion about finding something, anything to help us that ISN'T going to hurt us in the long term. Link tell me if I'm wrong or out of line here!! I have been damaged far worse from all AD's whether TCA, SSRI, SNRI, AP's etc.. and the after effects of these drugs was far more devestating than my initial condition. I am now 6 months AD free and haven't felt this good for years. No I'm not cured but it would take 10 men in white coats to shove one of those dirty little pills down my throat ever again. Yeah I'm angry and yeah I still take benzo's but hey, they work for me, just like some AD's work for others, but NOT for everyone. We need so much more research done about them because they really screw with some people (like me) and help others greatly. They are not for everyone, Paul
Posted by linkadge on March 29, 2006, at 18:46:44
In reply to Re: Any more studies done on SSRI/corscrew recepto, posted by tizza on March 29, 2006, at 18:06:26
Thats it. I'm really just looking for people who are in the same boat as me. Its not like I'm out to try and bring people down, I'm really just simply stating that this is what happenend to me, and wondering if anyone else had similar situations.
I suppose that some people don't want to hear bad cases like mine, they probably want to hear all the rosey stories about people who's lives have only got better.
I just wouldn't feel honest being here, telling people that I think that the medications are safe. Thats just my oppinion, for what its worth.
Like, for example, I still get shock sensations, more than one full year after stopping the meds.
I'm not really asking for pitty, I'm just trying to share my experiences.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on March 29, 2006, at 18:48:08
In reply to Re: Any more studies done on SSRI/corscrew recepto » tizza, posted by linkadge on March 29, 2006, at 18:46:44
And when you're still experincing shocklike sensations 1 year later, you may understand why I am sensitive to studies like this, and really very curious as to the extent of their validity.
Linkadge
Posted by tizza on March 29, 2006, at 19:57:23
In reply to Re: Any more studies done on SSRI/corscrew recepto » linkadge, posted by linkadge on March 29, 2006, at 18:48:08
I don't want to bring people down either. I'm VERY lucky in one respect that I only got the shock sensations, vertigo, uncontrollable crying, severe panic attacks for 1 month. I also want people to know what hell these drugs can put some of us people through. I have just got in contact with my anger again, mainly about AD's because they totally messed with my life and that is why I have been posting negative replies lately, I took the rose coloured glasses off a long time ago and I can feel again. Please feel free to babble mail me anytime. I think I only know about a 10th or even 20th of what you have researched and what I have found out scares the hell out of me. Nice to meet a like minded guy, but I still have GAD and social phobia which no AD helped with at all, Paul.
Posted by yxibow on March 30, 2006, at 0:51:42
In reply to Re: Any more studies done on SSRI/corscrew recepto, posted by linkadge on March 29, 2006, at 14:22:47
> I don't really know how scientology got caught up in this.
>
> I think there is a tendancy to not want to believe potential probelems with the medications we ingest, and so we try to compartmentalize the information. Oh, Linkadge is just one of "those", Tom Cruises.I respect your right in this country (which I believe you are not) to quite honestly be sucked into something that is definately in the realm of quackwatch.org -- money is continuously extracted and definately non-FDA "e-meters" are used to judge all sorts of things, and more money is extracted, and you go to various "levels", etc.
And it all funds these centers here, including a L. Ron Hubbard Drive that goes right into the Children's Hospital, it is very creepy. And they have a definate stance against psychiatry, that is well known.
And they have their own "narcotics treatment" Narconon; they have domain name sites that are hidden unless you look them up in whois and you realize they're scientology web pages deliberately hidden.
You can do what you want, but they have taken tens of millions of dollars in what is known as a pyramid or ponzi scheme and done nothing really with it.
Anyhow. I'm sure the watchful eye is watching me, so I best be quiet before the lawyers descend.
Posted by linkadge on March 30, 2006, at 9:55:15
In reply to Re: Any more studies done on SSRI/corscrew recepto » linkadge, posted by yxibow on March 30, 2006, at 0:51:42
"to quite honestly be sucked into something that is definately in the realm of quackwatch.org"
I'm sorry I don't really see the connection.
Linkadge
Posted by Cairo on March 30, 2006, at 22:44:48
In reply to Any more studies done on SSRI/corscrew receptors?, posted by linkadge on March 26, 2006, at 17:00:05
Here are the "similar articles" linked to U of Pa Kalia's original "corkscrew" article on PubMed:
Comparative study of fluoxetine, sibutramine, sertraline and dexfenfluramine on the morphology of serotonergic nerve terminals using serotonin immunohistochemistry.
Kalia M, et al.: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=10700602&query_hl=8&itool=pubmed_docsumCairo
Posted by Caedmon on March 30, 2006, at 23:20:24
In reply to Any more studies done on SSRI/corscrew receptors?, posted by linkadge on March 26, 2006, at 17:00:05
My thoughts:
>That one study basically concluded that more studies should be done before the drugs can be concluded as safe.
There are probably lots of different circumstances in which drugs are *not* tested. Part of doing research is playing a balancing act between controlled factors and broad-ranging, naturalistic ones. Or even extreme factors.
I'm guessing that most drugs, if taken in very large quantities, have the potential to be harmful. I wouldn't necessarily conclude that this means they are unsafe.
My concern with SSRIs is more in the area of long-term use and its effects on dopamine and EPS, as well as the implications surrounding withdrawal effects. (The "brain zaps" thing needs more study IMO.)
Reuptake inhibitors have been around for decades, TCAs do that, SSRIs are just more selective.
Psychiatry is still a really young and immature branch of medicine, and does have some unsound methods for Dx and Tx. Hopefully things will change, someday. Unfortunately, for now meds are pretty much the only thing keeping me alive.
- C
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