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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 21 of 21. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by ace on February 27, 2006, at 23:15:24
Hmmm...I'm thinking of combining the two
i know some poor dude suffered a stroke because he changed from Nardil to Parnate too fast, but i have Nifedipine and it seems safe for most folk...
I'm thinking
Mane- 10mg Parnate (up to 30-60mg) + 45mg Nardil
Nocte- 45mg Nardillet me knoe if I am a dork or a wise man!
Ace!
Posted by JaclinHyde on February 28, 2006, at 3:33:32
In reply to NARDIL + PARNATE!, posted by ace on February 27, 2006, at 23:15:24
More like a dead duck than a dork :-) Don't you even attempt this. First of all, since Nardil's formula has been changed it isn't worth the paper it is written on. Don't believe me? Go here...
http://www.consumeraffairs.com/rx/pfizer_nardil.html
and go here....
http://www.stratguitar.com/nmember/nardil.php
You don't need to blow out your brains with a hypertension crisis that is bound to happen. Take the Parnate or Marplan for that matter and run with it. It will be all you need, trust a 25 year user of the stuff.
And if you ever get a crazy notion like this in your head I will personally web-slap you silly ;-)
JH
Posted by TylerJ on February 28, 2006, at 9:55:20
In reply to Re: NARDIL + PARNATE!, posted by JaclinHyde on February 28, 2006, at 3:33:32
> More like a dead duck than a dork :-) Don't you even attempt this. First of all, since Nardil's formula has been changed it isn't worth the paper it is written on. Don't believe me? Go here...
>
> http://www.consumeraffairs.com/rx/pfizer_nardil.html
>
> and go here....
>
> http://www.stratguitar.com/nmember/nardil.php
>
> You don't need to blow out your brains with a hypertension crisis that is bound to happen. Take the Parnate or Marplan for that matter and run with it. It will be all you need, trust a 25 year user of the stuff.
>
> And if you ever get a crazy notion like this in your head I will personally web-slap you silly ;-)
>
> JH
>I totally agree with JH-she knows MAOI's and she's absolutely right. The two together..no way!!
Ty
Posted by willyee on February 28, 2006, at 14:41:21
In reply to NARDIL + PARNATE!, posted by ace on February 27, 2006, at 23:15:24
Did it,when i atempted to switch to nardil i was "constantly" chickening out and had plenty plenty plenty days where i took both.
Think there was a brief moment of success but nothing to brag about.
I of course am not recomending this,im sure the danger is real.
I had more success with a parnate early day/liq deprenyl late day combo.I just cant afford liq dep
Posted by Phillipa on February 28, 2006, at 20:33:50
In reply to Re: NARDIL + PARNATE!, posted by willyee on February 28, 2006, at 14:41:21
Hi Ace where's the band now? Still haven't received my Cd's Love Jan/ Phillipa your Queen!!!!!
Posted by Chairman_MAO on February 28, 2006, at 21:44:30
In reply to Re: NARDIL + PARNATE!, posted by JaclinHyde on February 28, 2006, at 3:33:32
I suppose my superb experience with the "new" Nardil was all placebo, right?
Yes, it is made to "AB" specifications now. Yes, I think it is absurd that there can be a 20% variation in the amount of drug per tablet. Yes, I think it is possible that SOME people were affected by the change. Most probably were not.
However:--90% of all attempts I've heard to explain what exactly is wrong with the "new" Nardil make absolutely no sense pharmacologically.
--Phenelzine sulfate is the active ingredient. If you took phenelzine sulfate in a capsule with no excipients it would work just fine. Your stomach is more than capable of dissolving those tablets. Moreover, the reason it is made as a sulfate salt is so that it survives the polar environment of the stomach and is absorbed properly. It could be compounded with Skittles and would work just as welk (assuming it was stored properly).Such scaremongering is not helpful. Before you flame me, please back up your claims with a valid and sound argument.
And there is no reason to think that combining Nardil with Parnate would produce untoward reactions per se IF APPROPRIATE DOSAGES ARE USED. However, if MAO inhibition is over around 80-90%, the antidepressant effect is compromised, so this would be counterproductive. Also, unless ace weighs 150kg+, I think the dosages of both are excessive. These drugs are not wholly specific MAO inhibitors at all dosage ranges; many other enzymes can be inhibited as well. Tranylcypromine can induce thrombocytopenia, i.e. low platelet count, blood cannot clot, at toxic dosages.
Anyone considering doing this should have MAO platelet counts measured. Ace: it would be safer if you combined d-amphetamine with Nardil; I know that is what you're going for anyway. You aren't going to gain anything by inhibiting more MAO than 1mg/kg phenelzine already does.
BTW, there is no such thing as a Nirvana pill. Took me a long time to figure that one out as well.
Posted by Tom Twilight on March 1, 2006, at 4:14:56
In reply to Re: NARDIL + PARNATE!, posted by Chairman_MAO on February 28, 2006, at 21:44:30
I'm not going to comment on the New Nardil formulation.
I'm not sure if combining NARDIL&PARNATE is quite as lethal as has been suggested, although I'm sure its got its risks
Someone on this board(don't remember name) combined 30mgs of Nardil with 30mg Parnate.
Apparently worked well for him.I should mention that he stopped posting, maybe his head exploded?!
Maybe he just stopped posting?Don't combined Marplan and Nardil, this combination can cause sudden death, there both quite similar chemically.
All the best ACE, good to see Chairman around again
Posted by greywolf on March 1, 2006, at 20:28:40
In reply to Re: NARDIL + PARNATE!, posted by Tom Twilight on March 1, 2006, at 4:14:56
I've been on Nardil, and did the usual reading up on MAOIs and talked to my docs. From what I know, the benefits of combining the two meds are not likely to be worth the risks.
Posted by ace on March 2, 2006, at 7:26:54
In reply to Re:Ace the Nardil Champ, posted by Phillipa on February 28, 2006, at 20:33:50
> Hi Ace where's the band now? Still haven't received my Cd's Love Jan/ Phillipa your Queen!!!!!
email me!!!!!!!!!!!!
Posted by SLS on March 2, 2006, at 8:37:42
In reply to NARDIL + PARNATE!, posted by ace on February 27, 2006, at 23:15:24
Hi.
I have often thought of combining the two MAOIs.
Such desperation.
The territory you would be entering would be almost completely uncharted. There are some plots on the chart to consider, though. I am aware of at least two instances where a stroke occurred when the full 14 day waiting period recommended between taking these two drugs was not followed. One stroke occurred after 10 days. The induction of a CVA might be as unpredictable as a tyramine reaction. Some people might get by just fine; others not. I'm not sure it is worth the risk.
I think you are better off trying to add desipramine titrated to 150-200mg.
- Scott> Hmmm...I'm thinking of combining the two
>
> i know some poor dude suffered a stroke because he changed from Nardil to Parnate too fast, but i have Nifedipine and it seems safe for most folk...
>
> I'm thinking
>
> Mane- 10mg Parnate (up to 30-60mg) + 45mg Nardil
> Nocte- 45mg Nardil
>
> let me knoe if I am a dork or a wise man!
>
> Ace!
Posted by Chairman_MAO on March 3, 2006, at 15:29:42
In reply to Re: NARDIL + PARNATE!, posted by SLS on March 2, 2006, at 8:37:42
I think serotonin syndrome, thrombocytopenia, and perhaps something completely idiosyncratic are the biggest risks. The risk of stroke is there, but these drugs cause some degree of platelet derangement. Adding them together both at full therapeutic dosages seems like too big a risk.
There are quite a few case reports of thrombocytopenia from excessive MAOI intake.
Also, the MAOIs themselves do not forget are metabolised by MAO. :)
The GABA-T inhibiting metabolite of phenelzine I believe is formed by MAO-B.
Posted by Questionmark on March 4, 2006, at 1:04:31
In reply to NARDIL + PARNATE!, posted by ace on February 27, 2006, at 23:15:24
Ace, i've tried about 1/4 pill (more or less) of Parnate before while being on Nardil (either 45mg/day or 60mg/day), a # of times-- as a self-experiment-- and it did not feel good at all.
It did not feel similar at all to what taking a low dose of Parnate (say even 10mg) would be like for me if i was not on anything before/while taking it. But if was definitely noticeable and definitely more unpleasant than pleasant. Hard to explain but very similar to when i took a small dose of Adderall on Nardil (Adderall is nothing like it normally is either although Ritalin is). From what i remember it was a very nervous-anxious feeling with accelerated heart rate, but very tired too and difficult to concentrate.
Bottom line is i highly suggest taking a small amount of a 10mg Parnate pill before trying 10mg or more. Good luck & be well.
Posted by willyee on March 5, 2006, at 19:01:02
In reply to Re: NARDIL + PARNATE! (Ace please read) » ace, posted by Questionmark on March 4, 2006, at 1:04:31
I did it at varying doses of both nardil and parnate,and it just felt blah pointless.
As for ur experieance,i can tell u personaly parnate is one of those pills that behaves differently when messed with,meaning cut up etc,it takes on a weird totaly different feel,like a cheap caffiene pill,totaly not worth loosing an actual 10 mg pill over,just my opinion cause i have tried to lower the 10 mg and it stunk even alone.
Posted by jedi on March 6, 2006, at 0:59:54
In reply to Re: NARDIL + PARNATE!, posted by Chairman_MAO on February 28, 2006, at 21:44:30
The "New" Nardil worked just as well for me as the "Old" Nardil. Like the Chairman says the active ingredient "phenelzine sufate" provides the MAO Inhibition which gives the medication it's profound effects on atypical depression and social anxiety.
Jedi> I suppose my superb experience with the "new" Nardil was all placebo, right?
>
> Yes, it is made to "AB" specifications now. Yes, I think it is absurd that there can be a 20% variation in the amount of drug per tablet. Yes, I think it is possible that SOME people were affected by the change. Most probably were not.
>
>
> However:
>
> --90% of all attempts I've heard to explain what exactly is wrong with the "new" Nardil make absolutely no sense pharmacologically.
> --Phenelzine sulfate is the active ingredient. If you took phenelzine sulfate in a capsule with no excipients it would work just fine. Your stomach is more than capable of dissolving those tablets. Moreover, the reason it is made as a sulfate salt is so that it survives the polar environment of the stomach and is absorbed properly. It could be compounded with Skittles and would work just as welk (assuming it was stored properly).
>
> Such scaremongering is not helpful. Before you flame me, please back up your claims with a valid and sound argument.
> ...
Posted by forgetful mary on March 6, 2006, at 18:15:43
In reply to New Nardil, posted by jedi on March 6, 2006, at 0:59:54
Apparently my reaction to the "new Nardil" (including the immediate skin rash) was merely an illusion , But, hey that's why they call us crazy!!!...People are different--yes, even you!!!
> The "New" Nardil worked just as well for me as the "Old" Nardil. Like the Chairman says the active ingredient "phenelzine sufate" provides the MAO Inhibition which gives the medication it's profound effects on atypical depression and social anxiety.
> Jedi
>
> > I suppose my superb experience with the "new" Nardil was all placebo, right?
> >
> > Yes, it is made to "AB" specifications now. Yes, I think it is absurd that there can be a 20% variation in the amount of drug per tablet. Yes, I think it is possible that SOME people were affected by the change. Most probably were not.
> >
> >
> > However:
> >
> > --90% of all attempts I've heard to explain what exactly is wrong with the "new" Nardil make absolutely no sense pharmacologically.
> > --Phenelzine sulfate is the active ingredient. If you took phenelzine sulfate in a capsule with no excipients it would work just fine. Your stomach is more than capable of dissolving those tablets. Moreover, the reason it is made as a sulfate salt is so that it survives the polar environment of the stomach and is absorbed properly. It could be compounded with Skittles and would work just as welk (assuming it was stored properly).
> >
> > Such scaremongering is not helpful. Before you flame me, please back up your claims with a valid and sound argument.
> > ...
>
Posted by jedi on March 6, 2006, at 21:33:43
In reply to Re: New Nardil, posted by forgetful mary on March 6, 2006, at 18:15:43
As a ten year user of both the old and new Nardil formulations by Pfizer; I was just passing on my experience. No offense intended. Yes, we all react differently to medications. But, the ingredients that provide the medication's benefits are the same.
Take care,
Jedi
> Apparently my reaction to the "new Nardil" (including the immediate skin rash) was merely an illusion , But, hey that's why they call us crazy!!!...People are different--yes, even you!!!
>
> > The "New" Nardil worked just as well for me as the "Old" Nardil. Like the Chairman says the active ingredient "phenelzine sufate" provides the MAO Inhibition which gives the medication it's profound effects on atypical depression and social anxiety.
> > Jedi
> >
Posted by Chairman_MAO on March 7, 2006, at 13:00:27
In reply to Re: New Nardil, posted by forgetful mary on March 6, 2006, at 18:15:43
An idiosyncratic reaction to a change in INACTIVE ingredients says nothing about the efficacy of the "New Nardil" in treating various conditions. I'm sure you'd be able to find someone who had this reaction to the "Old Nardil" and not to the reformulation.
That said, there have been studies done where the investigators will do things like tell a person who has "allergies" to close their eyes and brush a leaf against the subject's left and right arms. They will tell them that one of them was something they were allergic to and the other was not. The investigators deceived the subject; they'd transposed which was the allergen and which was not. The subject had the allergic reaction on the arm exposed to the "non-allergenic" (is this even a word, heh, hypoallergenic did not make sense to me here) leaf.
I am not saying you are "crazy", just that this has been demonstreated to happen.
Posted by forgetful mary on March 7, 2006, at 16:03:52
In reply to Re: New Nardil » forgetful mary, posted by Chairman_MAO on March 7, 2006, at 13:00:27
My reaction to the "new nardil" in skin reaction was merely an annoyance..... the changes in how it abandoned treating my depression was quite another.
> An idiosyncratic reaction to a change in INACTIVE ingredients says nothing about the efficacy of the "New Nardil" in treating various conditions. I'm sure you'd be able to find someone who had this reaction to the "Old Nardil" and not to the reformulation.
>
> That said, there have been studies done where the investigators will do things like tell a person who has "allergies" to close their eyes and brush a leaf against the subject's left and right arms. They will tell them that one of them was something they were allergic to and the other was not. The investigators deceived the subject; they'd transposed which was the allergen and which was not. The subject had the allergic reaction on the arm exposed to the "non-allergenic" (is this even a word, heh, hypoallergenic did not make sense to me here) leaf.
>
> I am not saying you are "crazy", just that this has been demonstreated to happen.
>
>
>
Posted by Chairman_MAO on March 8, 2006, at 0:30:36
In reply to Re: New Nardil, posted by forgetful mary on March 7, 2006, at 16:03:52
What dose were you taking, how many times per day did you dose, and did you try increasing the dose? If so, how much?
Posted by forgetful mary on March 8, 2006, at 15:53:17
In reply to Re: New Nardil » forgetful mary, posted by Chairman_MAO on March 8, 2006, at 0:30:36
I was taking 45 mg once a day for 20 years. I did not increase the dose as the weight gain it already caused me was enough to deal with having had a hip replacement and pain exacerbated by weight gain.( a birth defect).....
> What dose were you taking, how many times per day did you dose, and did you try increasing the dose? If so, how much?
Posted by Questionmark on March 10, 2006, at 15:24:03
In reply to Re: NARDIL + PARNATE! (Ace please read), posted by willyee on March 5, 2006, at 19:01:02
REAlly? You think so? That's really strange if that's the case. Huh.
This is the end of the thread.
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