![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 16 to 40 of 60. Go back in thread:
Posted by geno on October 3, 2004, at 5:35:36
In reply to Re: Amphetamine Psychosis: utopizen, posted by utopizen on September 30, 2004, at 11:23:44
To mr Utopizen,
Hey, i just have few questions for you. Are you some kind of psychic, you like read mind and dont even know one bit about the person who you are speaking of?Second, are you a Pyschiatrist, better yet, an expert in ADD/ADHA, or even have a some kind of specialization in the medical field.
Third, is people like you seem to somehow irritate me in a sence. Instead of saying, ok geno, you may have a problem, i would run it by your doctor, you inflame the problem, more so, making me look a bit foolish. Yet so, behind a computer screen. Now my next statement will be the last,and i have to say it should not disrespect dr bob or the board, But if you were to let say visibly interact with me, i dont think your working or shall i say your wording would be in a better tone.
When i post on this board, even if "my dose is to high, or im looking for somekind of positive advise, because this board is very professional in my perspective. To say Im suffering for amphetamine pscychosis, well, I think you better do a bit more research before posting, maybe going to a different board, like health boards.
If something i say, is a bit drastic, or getting out of hand, like i said, dont ridicule me, and go on and on , to spark others to team up with you. In my opinon, you may have some kind of issue, which because i dont know you, i would not or cannot say, but i must have an anxiety disorder, with amphetamien psychosis, so when i see my doctor in 4 days, ill be sure to have him set me up with the closest psych hospital. Ill be sure inform you if and how i make out.Besides that, I dont expect to hear you post in reference to my name, or a complaint may be filed with DR. BOB.
Thank you
geno
Posted by iris2 on October 3, 2004, at 14:16:26
In reply to My views - short, posted by linkadge on October 1, 2004, at 22:11:15
I don't have amphetamine psychosis. But I take Ritalin and when I take enough of it to actually help a lot it makes me obnoxious. No one including me can stand to be around me. I talk a talk incessantly or write. But mostly talk about anything and nothing. Bounce off walls.
Unfortunately stimulant type meds are one of a few in the arsenal of meds that provides any help. The Ritalin is not helping my focus or concentration much at all though. I cannot take adderal I am sure. I have tried dex and a few others and I cannot take them because of a bladder disease. It is embarrassing to talk so much so I hardly take the Ritalin anymore. My family tells me how they can talk to me now. But I am more depressed and have a difficult time getting out of bed etc.
I was thinking of trying Strattera, which gets me to why I posted.
Any suggestions? Something that will be stimulating increase motivation, focus, drive, concentration. The magic bullet:)
Irene
Posted by iris2 on October 3, 2004, at 14:33:38
In reply to Dexedrine Spanuals Vs Adderall vs Ritalin, posted by geno on September 29, 2004, at 17:33:07
Geno,
My two cents.
First I think what utopizen posted was inappropriate and uninformed. He or we do not know you or much about you. If I felt the way he did and had concerns I would have asked a lot of questions to try and ascertain if I was barking up the right tree.
I tend to have a difficult time keeping on subject and am long winded.
I also su** at typing. Especially if I am in an exited mood, as you seemed to be when you typed your post, and type faster than I am really able to. (I could be wrong just an initial observation)
Here is what I always do when I post:
1. After I write my post I reread it and usually find a lot of stuff that is just off topic and can easily be deleted without changing the actual content or meaning, making the post much shorter.
2. Next I copy the entire post and paste it into word and do a spell check.
Now even if my post or email is a bit long it is concise and easy to read.
It is all a bit time consuming but it makes me feel better about myself and how I come across.
Your post looked like most of mine do before I go through this process.
I hope this helps.Irene
Posted by KayeBaby on October 3, 2004, at 21:36:12
In reply to Dexedrine Spanuals Vs Adderall vs Ritalin, posted by geno on September 29, 2004, at 17:33:07
Hey Geno!
I can relate to your frustration with stimulants.Adderral XR did nothing for me at 60mgs. I could not see any effects at all. Like it was a placebo! I gave it a month and my Dr. was like Wow! Your neurology is unique! But seriously I had even put on a noticable several lbs that month so it was obvious that I wasn't joking around about it or abusing.
I take Dex. spansules combined with a small amount of (5mg tabs) od Dex. instant release. My dosage is 30 mg spansules and 5-10mg instant dex. as needed per day. 40mg total.
My chemistry reqires a jump start in them morning. The Dex spansules are great for focus but are not activating for me. I have found that 10 mg instant dex+15mg spansules in the morning works well. Another 15mg in the afternoon and I am covered well enough. No trouble sleeping or anything. However it may interest you to know that I can take as much as 100mgs+ (not at one time!)over the course of a day and it does not make me freaked out at all. Very productive of course but not really hyper acting.
Here is what I have discovered. Once you find the correct dosage, exceeding it does not make that much of a difference in the way I feel and it there simply is no reason for me to take more that what I need.You sound like you need a more physically activating stimulant. I am 36 yrs old and while I have my issues, I am sane and responsible-own my own small business and am a good mama to my kiddo. I could eat those Adderall by the handful and they simply do not do ANYTHING to me-good, bad or otherwise. I am not an abuser, my dearest desire is just to be able to navigate this life with a bit less frustration. My best "high" is when I feel functional and effective in my day to day duties.
An idea may be to try adding a small amount of dexidrine to what you are being prescrbed rather than completely switching. Also, I have found L-Tyrosine to help with stimulant tolerance. Acetyl-l-carnitine is helpful too.
For me finally knowing that how I feel now is not how you will always feel and that I will figure this problem out and move on at some point has earned me some peace. Geno, you will have happy times where you feel in control again.
I can't promise you this, I guess, but I know it just the same-you will feel better, be happy and find exactly what you need.Patience is truly a virtue I have little of. I will never be patient-instead I remind myself that there will be better days ahead and what I cannot change at the very moment I will accept because it is the only way to ease my pain till the solution is found.
Very good people can go through very dark times. You will find a way. You really will.
My thoughts are with you.
Kaye
Posted by Optimist on October 4, 2004, at 15:12:16
In reply to Re: Dexedrine Spanuals Vs Adderall vs Ritalin, posted by KayeBaby on October 3, 2004, at 21:36:12
Kaye, I just started Adderall XR a couple days ago and was wondering about the differences between it and Dexedrine primarily.
I find the Adderall XR tends to wane at around 5 to 6 hours. I feel that taking an extra pill around that time would be appropriate since I would prefer around 10-12 hours of functionality.
The price is also a major issue at the moment. Here in Canada a single pill of Adderall XR is around $3.50. Is the Dexedrine (longer lasting one) any cheaper where you are? I'd imagine the costs relative to one another would be similar where ever they are sold.
I don't have benefits at the moment and have to pay out of my own pocket so I'm looking for more cost effective solutions at this point.
Regarding the Adderall at the moment though. I seem to be enjoying it thus far. I don't seem to need much. I've been taking 10mg in the morning so far am considering dropping it down to 5 tomorrow to see what it's like. I originally started with 20mg and it was way too stimulating.
I'm been taking the Adderall with club soda on an empty stomach. The alkaline solution is supposed to increase the absorbtion. The reason I did this was because I thought I'd have to be taking a lot more than I currently am. I'm a big guy, 225 lbs. and generally not very sensitive to caffeine or ephedrine. I thought I would try a little more at the beginning to figure out my therapeutic dosage as quickly as possible. Since every size pill generally costs the same, I didn't want to be using multiple 5mg pills and spend too much money at the beginning.
I had also heard about some 60 lbs kids needing 30mg a day, and some adults around 80mg so I guessed that I would require more.
My main problem as been been energic depression, and am currently using the Adderall for improved energy, motivation, and focus. I'm also taking 300mg of wellbutrin a day.
If anyone else has anything to offer I would appreciate it as well. Thanks.
Posted by theo on October 4, 2004, at 16:32:37
In reply to Re: Dexedrine Spanuals Vs Adderall vs Ritalin » KayeBaby, posted by Optimist on October 4, 2004, at 15:12:16
My doc was thinking about addin Adderall XR or Concerta for energy, focus problems.
Is Adderall XR pretty smooth? Have you ever tried Concerta?
Posted by Dr. Bob on October 5, 2004, at 3:23:28
In reply to Re: Dexedrine Spanuals Vs Adderall vs Ritalin » geno, posted by iris2 on October 3, 2004, at 14:33:38
> people like you seem to somehow irritate me in a sence... you inflame the problem
>
> geno> I think what utopizen posted was inappropriate and uninformed.
>
> IreneThanks for trying to work this out, but please don't post anything that could lead others to feel accused or put down.
If you or others have questions about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please see the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
Follow-ups regarding these issues should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration. They, as well as replies to the above posts, should of course themselves be civil.
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by Optimist on October 5, 2004, at 9:26:30
In reply to Re: Dexedrine Spanuals Vs Adderall vs Ritalin » Optimist, posted by theo on October 4, 2004, at 16:32:37
> My doc was thinking about addin Adderall XR or Concerta for energy, focus problems.
>
> Is Adderall XR pretty smooth? Have you ever tried Concerta?I find it generally pretty smooth, although I don't have much to compare it to. The only stimulants I've taken are caffeine, ephedrine, and now adderall, and cocaine once but I'd never take that again anyways. The adderall is definitely more smooth than the ephedrine. I'm not a big fan of ephedrine personally. I can't focus on it.
I have not tried Concerta. I might suggest to my pdoc next time to try dexedrine though if it is cheaper. We'll see. I find the stimulating qualities of adderall overall better than caffeine, most notably from the longer half life. It seems to offer more motivation it seems as well, and perhaps better focus too.
The Adderall doesn't seem to make me anxious either, although I haven't had too much of a problem with that in the past. A little social anxiety I've had but nothing too debilitating. If anything the Adderall may make me more socially adept. I'm still feeling it out though. I haven't been out in public much while on it in the last few days. I definitely feel more chatty, and perhaps more social confidence as well. We'll see.
Posted by utopizen on October 5, 2004, at 10:32:47
In reply to Re: Amphetamine Psychosis: utopizen, posted by geno on October 3, 2004, at 5:35:36
I don't understand why anyone would act like going to a psych hospital is a negative thing to do. I found it quiet positive. And yes, I do have an issue. If I didn't, or if you didn't, would we be here? I hope not! =)
take care, I don't think you're as bad as you think I do.We just need help sometimes, and it doesn't matter what "diagnosis" I think you have-- what's matter is that you find relief, and I don't care how you get it-- I just want you to feel you found it when and however you do get it =)
Posted by utopizen on October 5, 2004, at 10:35:42
In reply to Re: My views - short » linkadge, posted by iris2 on October 3, 2004, at 14:16:26
> I don't have amphetamine psychosis. But I take Ritalin and when I take enough of it to actually help a lot it makes me obnoxious. No one including me can stand to be around me. I talk a talk incessantly or write. But mostly talk about anything and nothing. Bounce off walls.
adding an antidepressant to whatever stimulant can help a lot. Straterra isn't a bad idea. um, how did you get diagnosed w/ the bladder disease? 'cause if I take adderall 60mg/day now, I uh, wake up with um, having released some water overnight... keeping my dose to 40mg seems to help.
Posted by iris2 on October 5, 2004, at 12:24:51
In reply to Re: Dexedrine Spanuals Vs Adderall vs Ritalin » KayeBaby, posted by Optimist on October 4, 2004, at 15:12:16
I take Ritalin and it helps some. I do not think I would be able to take Adderal but do you think it would help more with the focuc,concentaration ,motivation. The ritalin only seems to get me out of bed and not a whole lot more. Except to malke me talk insessantly. Perhaps Strattera?
What do people think I should try. I migh try stuff I probably cannot tolerate just to see.
irene
Posted by iris2 on October 5, 2004, at 12:34:49
In reply to Re: My views - short, posted by utopizen on October 5, 2004, at 10:35:42
My bladder disease i sinterstitial systitis. I started having frequency and urgency. I ws going upwards of 40 times a day and could not sleap through it. Now later in the disease I have a lot of pain when it flares up. After measuring and taking the times I went the dotor first made sure I did not have a bacterial infection and then he did a bladder biopsy. None of it was fun. I think they have better ways to diagnos this particular disease now.
irene
Posted by Optimist on October 5, 2004, at 16:03:58
In reply to Re: Dexedrine Spanuals Vs Adderall vs Ritalin » Optimist, posted by iris2 on October 5, 2004, at 12:24:51
> I take Ritalin and it helps some. I do not think I would be able to take Adderal but do you think it would help more with the focuc,concentaration ,motivation. The ritalin only seems to get me out of bed and not a whole lot more. Except to malke me talk insessantly. Perhaps Strattera?
>
> What do people think I should try. I migh try stuff I probably cannot tolerate just to see.
>
> ireneI don't have too much to offer as I don't have any experience or knowledge with regard to those meds (Ritalin, Strattera).
I'm curious why you think Ritalin wouldn't bother you but Adderall would? Have you experimented with it before or have you heard that it is bad for your condition?
It may be likely that Adderall may have more to offer with respect to energy, motivation, and focus. Adderall seems to be the most popular out of all the stim. ADD drugs. Of course people react differently to different meds so you basically have to figure it out through experimentation.
Posted by iris2 on October 5, 2004, at 20:25:01
In reply to Re: Dexedrine Spanuals Vs Adderall vs Ritalin » iris2, posted by Optimist on October 5, 2004, at 16:03:58
> I'm curious why you think Ritalin wouldn't bother you but Adderall would? Have you experimented with it before or have you heard that it is bad for your condition?
>
> It may be likely that Adderall may have more to offer with respect to energy, motivation, and focus. Adderall seems to be the most popular out of all the stim. ADD drugs. Of course people react differently to different meds so you basically have to figure it out through experimentation.I have tried several other stimulants besides Ritalin and was unable to take them at all because they all caused a lot of side effects because of a bladder disease I have. In fact I think Adderal has dex in it which I have tried. The likelyhood of a mix of three different stimulants being okay in my body is about nill. My pdoc still cannot figure out why I am able to tolerate Ritalin. AndrewB seemed to know but I never quite understood it all. I thought my best bet would be Strattera. Even that I will probably not be able to take but at least I have a fighting chance going it. I want to take something besides Ritalin because it really is not the best mood elevator or at concentration , focus and motivation. Basically it gets me out of bed and gives me a little energy. On the really down side it makes me a motormouth sometimes.
Thanks,irene
Posted by geno on October 6, 2004, at 3:21:57
In reply to Re: Dexedrine Spanuals Vs Adderall vs Ritalin » Optimist, posted by iris2 on October 5, 2004, at 20:25:01
Uztopian, I understand, and if i said something that may upset you , i apologize and your correct, that we all have mental issues, and I understand, but i have a pretty severe case of ADD, type 2 and Type5, more soe a combonation of both, but i believe i type 5 lists hyperactivity, which i dont have.
For 5 yrs, plus another 5 years on top of that, of abusing alcohol, GHB, and Oxys, which all interact with the brain chemical dopamine, moresoe the nucleus acumbens, oh, also i guess i could say, for some unknown reason why, I used to take ephedrine for 5 yrs straight. I must have no idea why i took it, because i personally think its the worst stimulant to take, due to the extreme anxiety and actually makes your add 10x worse. But at the time, i new nothing about the mental aspects or chemical breakdown. I often wondered why i would always be shaking , and axious, semi- parinoid and would have to drink alot of beer to calm me.
But I know that this forum is not substance abuse, but my point is, ADD, and what goes along with such. Im no psycho-nut or know it all, yet there are people on this board who post that seem to be like psychiatrist or pharmacologist, due to the great information they post. THis is why i like this board so much. Plus, you dont have the verbal abuse and such as other boards, esp. addiction boards. God help you if you are an addict or abused opiates, and now your take adderall, then you must get 5 posts saying you are just an addict and abusing another drug.
Well, Even though im not a doctor, I know enough to say that Psychostimulants are and can be abused. Yet can help one with add or ADHD very very much.
Yes, my post are long and i will sum this up and try to post smaller ones, but Iv been through 4 rehabs and psychiatrists, Psychologists, specialist, NA/AA, and was sober, for 1 yr of every drug, except zoloft. ANd still did not function well.
TO end this post, My opnion is and is ONLY my opinon, that taking nutritional supplements with medication can be extra benificial. WHY? Because , some of the natural supps, counteract neurotoxciity of drugs, Heal brain cells and nerve cells, Boost all N.T. Naturally. But when someone suffers severe mental disorder like ADD, Depression, Panic, Kava Kava,5htp or St.Johns work or amino acids are not going to be potent enough. But, it may help one "counteract the side effects in the long run, or better yet, help the drug work better, thus allowing one to lower there drug dosage. IM going to post on the natural forum now, and i have some good information.THank you
Geno
Posted by thug life on October 6, 2004, at 8:38:37
In reply to Re: Dexedrine Spanuals Vs Adderall vs Ritalin, posted by geno on October 6, 2004, at 3:21:57
Geno,
Since I'm pressed for time I am going to list my experiences and opinions and maybe we can each help each other from there.I wanted to address you more specific but if we brainstorm maybe we can help others as well! I remember 3beers and he really did bring up a lot of good stuff.
1st you seem well versed in the actions and mechanisms of medications which is awesome.IMO unless you have severe panic and anxiety people owe it to themselves to take a proactive role in their own rehabilitation.The reason to take a back seat sometimes with research and forums IMO w/anxiety/panic is you can make your condtion worse and start thinking you have every disorder out there and for every medication....there is horror stories,you might end up reading Peter Breggin and feel terrified.But anyways....I have been on at least one med for every class used in psychiatry.I have been diagnosed primarily with panic disorder but with my panic like a lot of us came...depression,social anxiety,Obsessive thoughts,agoraphobia etc.I also later realized I had ADD and since that is the topic I will stick with that.
My quick philosiphy...
When I first read a quote by Neal Seidman.It was something to the extent of instead of thinking what happens to us mentally as being "defective" and feeling the need to be in control....I had to change the way I viewed my "mental Illness"....Instead of trying to get rid of it I realized it's a part of me and it's there for a reason and it's o.k.,I was o.k. and I was me....not some label.I am not trying to slight anyone and hopefully people can kind of get an idea of what I mean.I realize the pain that people go through and I'm not trying to say these disorders arent severe and deibilitating.But for me,It is a part of me,just like anger ,sadness,sexual feelings,joy...I can't control those emotions completely so I let go of the idea I was defective and I was perfect and going through stuff because thats just what a higher power had intened for me I guess.I had to unconditionally love myself.Saying I had to be this way or that way for society put conditions on that love which kept my symptoms full force.But just by keeping it real and realizing I do have these problems,it does hurt but just by bringing awareness to myself led to the 2nd key to life:adaptability.I was able to understand,learn and make myself start to feel life again...free of labels,even though suffering came with it,acceptance lessened it.I think Buddha said suffering comes from wanting things we dont need.I started realizing I didnt "need" a cure.I also think it was Gandhi who said become the changes you want to see.This made me realize that instead of waiting for things just to go away,I had to take a active role in being content.But that is my quick philosiphy and I don't mean to make anyone feel as if it an easy thing and disorders are "easy" Uztopizen was correct about possible hospitialization in cases...but for me this is what helped spark the positive force in my life.We are not freaks and the stigma a lot of society puts on us.We all have a bright star inside of us,and when you eventually find it....it so bright everyone will be blinded.....Medication:
Medication works on different cell receptors in your brain as with all psych meds they either:
1)enhance the release of the chemical into the space between cells,the synapse 2)block the effects in the chemical on the receiving receptor 3)be brought back into the the same cell it was released AKA "reuptake"4)Or it can be metabolized,or broken into smaller pieces,carried away in the blood or excreted through the urine 5)they act like the chemical and stimulate the receivng receptor
This was very quick and a rough guide...It's sorta like an air hokey match lol. #1)would be amphetamine's
#2)Anti-psychotics,beta blockers
#3)Ritalin,SSri's Tca's
#4)Maoi's
#5)benzo'sIf someone can add to it and make it easier to understand please feel free or if someone would like further explanation I could try and do it.
Now as we are talking about ADD meds and stimulating meds....
Ritalin does a whole different action than amp's.Amp's cause the release of NE,SE and DA.I believe (I could be wrong)it causes the realease of NE(norepinephrine) more potently than DA(dopamine)and is least effective on SE(Serototnin)But after all is said and done it works DA.Ritalin is basically an SSRI but for Dopamine.It is a dopamine reuptake inhibitor.That is why it has a different feel because it doesnt realease as amp's do but reuptake's
Caffeine acts as an antagonist at adenosine receptors+
Ephedrine is a weal agonist at the beta adrenoceptors.Same with Clenbuterol.It weird these drugs are anti asthmatic drugs.
Both of these drugs are horrible and tax the CNS too much which is why strokes and other things have happened.
Quick guide(dont know if things have changed):
concerta 18,27,36,54 mgs lasts 12 hours
adderall xr 5,10,15,20,25,30mg lasts 12 hours
Ritalin La 20,30,40 mgs lasts 8 hours
Metadate cd 20mg lasts 8 hours
Dexedrine sr 5,10,15mglasts 8 hours
methylin er 10,20mg lasts 6-8 hours
adderall ir ( alot) tabs are suppossed to last longer as strength increases 4-8hrs all below
dexedrine 5mg
dextrostat 5,10 mg
detroamp(generic)not sure of doses
methylin 5,10,20
ritalin 5 ,10 ,20
focalin 2.5,5,10mg
metadate ir 10,20mg-Modafinil was pretty much useless to me at high doses and the cost is very high.Its good Adderall and Dexedrine Sr come in generic and its not a big difference like ritalin.
-I personally do not like Ritalin because it is to unpredictable.I Get the dysphoric feeling.-I never noticed a difference in the l-isomer or d-isomer
-Desoxyn was horrible,very bad crashes.
-I currently take Adderall Ir the use the Dex Sr.I like the idea of using the fast acting agent to get into your system then let the long term agent finish your day.Timing is the key.Personally,I set the alarm an hour before I wake,take a pill,go back to bed,wake up with it kicking in.
-To me Dex SR generic vs name brand there is no difference.It is not the feeling of immediate release but it keeps things level.
-I think you would like Dex spanules if self pay get the generic the price diff is crazy!!!
-Dont drink or consume Vitamin C IT cancels out alot of the amps work.Some people complain in the morning they dont feel anything and its cause they down O.J. and wipes out the effects.I actually use orange juice at night and I swear it works like a charm.It makes me sleepy because it cancels out the dex or adderall.
-There is no evidence that weight to milligram ratio has any validity.They mostly did that because kids were involved in alot of studies.
My weight is 250 lbs.
dosage:30 mgs adderall
75 mgs DexedrineMy Doctor is great and is on the forefront of ADD studies.Most people cant believe my doseage,I actually was taking 150 mgs.but came down.He is willing to fine tune me.
It sounds like you read Dr.Amen's books,If not thats always a good place to start.You can go to www.addwherehouse.com for books
Heres some recommendations for adults:-Adhd in adults by Paul wender
-You mean i'm not stupid,lazy,or crazy?By Kelly And Ramundo
-Managing attention and learning disabilities in late adolescence and adulthood by russell barkley
(very advanced academic discussions)If you want to e-mail me you can at shooto@ziplip.com and we can talk....If not we can continue on here but ......time to get the wife and kids awake...
Take care
Posted by iris2 on October 6, 2004, at 9:06:46
In reply to Geno....Let's Brainstorm......(very long), posted by thug life on October 6, 2004, at 8:38:37
I want to thank you for the information you posted. I hope it is helpful to Geno and I certainly know it will be to me. I am not diagnosed with ADHD or ADD but I certainly have the symptoms of ADD. I cannot focus, concentrate and have no energy. I take Ritalin, I started taking it for BP because of Parnate and when I went off the Parnate never stopped taking it. I have tried several other stimulants and am not able to take them. On the off chance that I can take Strattera, as a kind of back door stimulant I wondered what you might think of that.
I also set my alarm and take my Ritalin and go back to bed or sleep for about an hour or so until it kicks in. I think that is one of the things that drew me to your post.
Thanks,
irene
Posted by iris2 on October 6, 2004, at 9:24:56
In reply to Re: Dexedrine Spanuals Vs Adderall vs Ritalin, posted by geno on October 6, 2004, at 3:21:57
Geno,
I just wanted to say I am sorry if anything I said in my post upset you. I was only trying to tell you that my posts generally look similar to yours before I spend some time fixing and shortening them up. I guess you did not want to bother doing the spell check. I feel better when I do as my posts are easier to read and look like I actually can spell and type:)
Kudos for you for being the bigger person. I am glad you decided to let it go and post here again. You are as valued as the next poster. We will learn from you as you do from others on this site. I know some here are very knowledgeable about meds. If you read Dr Bob somewhere he describes how there are some on the board who are more knowledgeable and can provide information and some who just need to ask questions. I myself have learned or am still in the process of asking a lot and answering the less pharmaceutical questions or ones that people ask directly experience with a certain medicine. I was feeling like I was abusing the board when all I did was ask questions but according to Dr Bob that is fine. Sorry I could not find what he wrote and have to go to work so I do not have time. Perhaps you will find that passage. I know it made me feel better.
irene
Posted by zeugma on October 6, 2004, at 18:40:51
In reply to Re: Geno....Let's Brainstorm......(very long) » thug life, posted by iris2 on October 6, 2004, at 9:06:46
> I want to thank you for the information you posted. I hope it is helpful to Geno and I certainly know it will be to me. I am not diagnosed with ADHD or ADD but I certainly have the symptoms of ADD. I cannot focus, concentrate and have no energy. I take Ritalin, I started taking it for BP because of Parnate and when I went off the Parnate never stopped taking it. I have tried several other stimulants and am not able to take them. On the off chance that I can take Strattera, as a kind of back door stimulant I wondered what you might think of that.
>
> I also set my alarm and take my Ritalin and go back to bed or sleep for about an hour or so until it kicks in. I think that is one of the things that drew me to your post.
>
> Thanks,
>
> irene
>
Hi irene,Since you take Ritalin and are wondering about Strattera as a 'back-door stimulant' I will describe how they compare in my experience. Ritalin does nothing for me by itself. It enhanced the effect of provigil, which is the only substance besides caffeine which can give me any energy (perpetual severe lethargy). I cannot take provigil due to side effects. Strattera added to Ritalin provides a 'jolting' effect that is not exactly energizing, more like a clearing, focusing effect. Strattera is a powerful NE reuptake inhibitor but it may have other effects as well. I do not know if it would aggravate your other existing conditions. I went back on it out of desperation as my ADD has been in urgent need of addressing and provigil, which I would class as far and away the most effective drug I have ever taken for ADD, had to be d/c'd.
-z
Posted by iris2 on October 7, 2004, at 9:39:11
In reply to Re: Geno....Let's Brainstorm......(very long) » iris2, posted by zeugma on October 6, 2004, at 18:40:51
Posted by pablo1 on October 7, 2004, at 11:25:17
In reply to Geno....Let's Brainstorm......(very long), posted by thug life on October 6, 2004, at 8:38:37
thug life,
Thanks, this is interesting. I do differ in my understanding on a few points though.
I've got ADD inattentive type and overfocused type (I think) but I really don't have problems focusing, mostly with being distracted and procrastinating or maybe the substance abuse is a bigger issue than I want to believe. I've had four docs give me various diagnosis that all included moderate ADHD to some extent & have been in & out of therapy most of my life. Like geno, I've tried being sober & my brain isn't happy that way either so I've always self medicated for 30 years, mostly pot & drinking, not super heavily but regularly. So I think that messed up my ability to appreciate the psych meds 'cause it gets confused between getting high and feeling therapeutic effects.
For the record, I think geno is maybe pushing the stimulants too far but given his background of severe narcotic abuse, relatively speaking I think he's on the right track trying to be more methodical & logical about it working with a doc & will eventually settle down. I'm not in a position to criticise about abusing meds. But I do want to find a place where I'm not abusing and at peace. Enough for the disclaimers...
I look at the meds mostly in their relative action on the three major neurotransmitters NE DA & SE. SSRI's mellowed me out & made the procrastination worse in a way plus when I came off, I got a DA rebound like crazy. NE reacts badly with me, causing sleep problems & one of my diagnosis is anxiety so I don't need any more of that. This makes ritalin & adderall not ideal for me. So I got myself some pure dopamine meds amisulpride & amineptine & while they haven't fixed my procrastination, they feel good, make me happy & more motivated and alive without feeling like I'm "on speed" usually (unless I drink a lot of coffee). Mostly they give me a real subtle euphoria and activate my reward/pleasure system more than stimulating the NE adrenaline stuff. They take the blah out & make me feel more like a happy normal person & more sociable. BTW pot does this too but gets me much more high & fuzzy headed. Alcohol relaxes me & I think the part that works on the GABA causes a euphoria/pleasure sociability similar to the dopamine meds but obviously gets me drunk too. But all these give me what I'm missing.
So the way I see the stimulants is:
Ritalin -more NE, more jittery
Adderall -moderate balance
Dexadrine -more DA, more smooth/euphoric/motivating
Amisulpride -almost no jitters, smooth subtle pleasureDoes this scale of relative effects make sense to others?
Posted by iris2 on October 7, 2004, at 15:45:03
In reply to Re: Geno....Let's Brainstorm...... » thug life, posted by pablo1 on October 7, 2004, at 11:25:17
I am on Amisulpride and it helps some but not with adehenia. I took Amineptine the first time it was great but I just tried it again this time with Amisulpride and got no reaction. I took it about a week. I was starting to think it was making the Amisulpride not work. Do you think I should try one more time ( have tried about 5 times since it worked the first time) the Amineptine with the Amisulpride? Perhaps I need to increase the dose to at least 2 tabs a day? Perhaps I need to try it a little longer but the first time I saw a difference within a couple of days.
Want some opionions.
irene
Posted by Optimist on October 7, 2004, at 16:24:12
In reply to Re: Geno....Let's Brainstorm...... » pablo1, posted by iris2 on October 7, 2004, at 15:45:03
> I am on Amisulpride and it helps some but not with adehenia. I took Amineptine the first time it was great but I just tried it again this time with Amisulpride and got no reaction. I took it about a week. I was starting to think it was making the Amisulpride not work. Do you think I should try one more time ( have tried about 5 times since it worked the first time) the Amineptine with the Amisulpride? Perhaps I need to increase the dose to at least 2 tabs a day? Perhaps I need to try it a little longer but the first time I saw a difference within a couple of days.
>
> Want some opionions.
>
> ireneIrene, I'm curious how you got the Amineptine? I was under the impression that it was discontinued in the late 90's. Did you order it from a foreign pharmacy?
Posted by pablo1 on October 7, 2004, at 16:49:08
In reply to Re: Geno....Let's Brainstorm...... » pablo1, posted by iris2 on October 7, 2004, at 15:45:03
Iris,
I can hardly tell the difference btwn the two but I like amisulpride better somehow it's sweeter, yet more subtle. I couldn't tell the difference between ritalin & adderall either though. Amisulpride is more specially targeted toward the D2 & D3 receptors (though I don't know the significance of those) and it is an agonist meaning it increases DA release. Ameneptine is described as a more broad brush DA reuptake inhibitor meaning it prevents your body from reabsorbing it's already available dopamine.Ameneptine is shorter acting & I think should not require a week of ramp-up time.
Neither of them seem to be real sensitive to dosage for me. I'm only taking 1/16th of a 200mg amisulpride tab. Because it's so little I snort it but it's not like I get a big rush or anything, it still takes half an hour to feel. I get greedy and want more effect but it's not much different if I take 50 mg (4x that dose) when I was being more careful I felt that a larger dose did make me more stoned & that's how I settled on the 12.5mg. I should emphasize though that even if I take more trying to abuse it, I don't get real obviously stoned. Smoking some pot works much better in that department so I'm trying to relax & be a good boy & just use it therapeutically.
Oh, and I have heard that ameneptine commonly poops out or people develop tolerance pretty quickly like a couple weeks. I hope that doesn't happen with the amisulpride. There was one guy I read who got a cocaine high from 100mg amisulpride which went away after a year. He was being prescribed at 2 or 300 dose for antipsychotic effect but felt that the higher doses were a waste. For what it's worth, he had a history of abusing meth (speed) and while he did enjoy abusing it, it seems he's much happier now and certainly not as abad off as he was abusing the meth, which is a really awful narcotic to abuse.
Then I take 1/4 of a 100mg ameneptine later in the day. I've tried up to 300mg ameneptine with only a slight increase in effect. In fact when I got a second order after running out, I gobbled 300mg & didn't feel anything till later after also taking 100mg of amisulpride & drinking wine.
Oh one more thing... When I ran out, I felt a subtle effect from the amisulpride for at least a week after quitting.
Not sure if any of that helps you but if you don't feel anything it probably means it's not targeting what you need. Although the ameneptine should be more generic, hitting the same spots as the amisulpride plus others but who knows?
> I am on Amisulpride and it helps some but not with adehenia. I took Amineptine the first time it was great but I just tried it again this time with Amisulpride and got no reaction. I took it about a week. I was starting to think it was making the Amisulpride not work. Do you think I should try one more time ( have tried about 5 times since it worked the first time) the Amineptine with the Amisulpride? Perhaps I need to increase the dose to at least 2 tabs a day? Perhaps I need to try it a little longer but the first time I saw a difference within a couple of days.
>
> Want some opionions.
>
> irene
Posted by pablo1 on October 7, 2004, at 17:32:20
In reply to Geno....Let's Brainstorm......(very long), posted by thug life on October 6, 2004, at 8:38:37
Just clarify where I saw things a bit differently...
First, I agree about the disorder not being all bad. I think it makes us more interesting as people and carries some gifts along with it. I’d rather struggle with this than be a boring person. Getting through it I will be a stronger person in the end.
>
> Now as we are talking about ADD meds and stimulating meds....
> Ritalin does a whole different action than amp's.
> Amp's cause the release of NE,SE and DA.
> I believe (I could be wrong)it causes the release of NE
> more potently than DA(dopamine)and is least effective on SE
> But after all is said and done it works DA.The stimulants are all mostly dopamine meds but with a little NE (and it doesn’t take much to kick the DA into gear). I think the SE effect is negligible except with desoxyn (meth).
>
> Ritalin is ... a dopamine reuptake inhibitor.
> That is why it has a different feel because
> it doesn’t release as amp's do but reuptake's
Here’s a simplified version of a chart I’ve been using which can be found here: http://sl.schofield3.home.att.net/medicine/psychiatric_drugs_chart.html
(I hope it survives pasting formatting)
Ritalin
2.9 hrs NE reuptake
20-30mg NE release DA reuptake
60mg maxAdderall
10-25 hrs NE reuptake+ DA reuptake+
5-40mg
60mg maxDexedrine
10-25 hrs NE release+++ DA release ++
5-30mg NE reuptake+ DA reuptake+
40mg maxDesoxyn
10-25 hrs SE release+++ NE release +++ DA release ++
10-25mg NE reuptake DA reuptake
> -I personally do not like Ritalin because it is to unpredictable.
> I Get the dysphoric feeling.
>
> -I never noticed a difference in the l-isomer or d-isomer
>
> -Desoxyn was horrible,very bad crashes.
>
> -I currently take Adderall Ir the use the Dex Sr.
> I like the idea of using the fast acting agent
> to get into your system then let the long term agent finish your day.
> Timing is the key. Personally,I set the alarm an hour before I wake,
> take a pill, go back to bed, wake up with it kicking in.
>> -Dont drink or consume Vitamin C IT cancels out alot of the amps work.
You can also take baking soda or drink tonic water to increase the effect. Another thing I read says zinc sulphate increases effectiveness, I think this is alkaline like in antacid medicine
> Here’s some recommendations for ADD books for adults:
>
> -Managing attention and learning disabilities in late adolescence and adulthood by russell barkley
> (very advanced academic discussions)
Barkley is kind of an ass. He doesn’t think inattentive ADD is part of ADHD at all but something else. He thinks ADHD is a disease with no advantages. He is smart though he simplifies things too much & warps things to fit a perfect scientific explanation. If it’s not proven in double blind placebo studies he won’t discuss it.
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