![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 23 of 23. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Babysnakes on May 17, 2003, at 11:12:44
Curious if anyone out there has Mitral Valve Prolapse or Dysautonomia and tried various ADs, especially SSRIs.
It occurs to me that I've been hyper sensitive to stimulants of any kind since my early to mid twenties. It turns out I have MVP. Had to drop coffee first, then tea and finally I can only tolerate a Coca Cola now and then.
My experience with Wellbutrin was predictably bad because of the stimulation and now I'm having trouble adjusting to Prozac. Although it seems to be getting a little better (up to 20 mgs) and on week two. Still intend to give it at least a months trial. Any thoughts from any MVP fellow sufferers or anyone else super sensitve to stimulants.
Posted by Larry Hoover on May 17, 2003, at 11:39:44
In reply to Mitral Valve Prolapse and ADs, posted by Babysnakes on May 17, 2003, at 11:12:44
> Curious if anyone out there has Mitral Valve Prolapse or Dysautonomia and tried various ADs, especially SSRIs.
>
> It occurs to me that I've been hyper sensitive to stimulants of any kind since my early to mid twenties. It turns out I have MVP. Had to drop coffee first, then tea and finally I can only tolerate a Coca Cola now and then.
>
> My experience with Wellbutrin was predictably bad because of the stimulation and now I'm having trouble adjusting to Prozac. Although it seems to be getting a little better (up to 20 mgs) and on week two. Still intend to give it at least a months trial. Any thoughts from any MVP fellow sufferers or anyone else super sensitve to stimulants.You may be suffering from low magnesium levels. Stimulant sensitivity should diminish with magnesium, as well.
Am J Cardiol 1997 Mar 15;79(6):768-72
Comment in:
Am J Cardiol. 1997 Oct 1;80(7):976.
Clinical symptoms of mitral valve prolapse are related to hypomagnesemia and attenuated by magnesium supplementation.Lichodziejewska B, Klos J, Rezler J, Grudzka K, Dluzniewska M, Budaj A, Ceremuzynski L.
Department of Cardiology, Postgraduate Medical School, Grochowski Hospital, Warsaw, Poland.
Mitral valve prolapse syndrome (MVP) is a frequent disorder characterized by a number of complaints which lessen the quality of life. The pathogenesis of MVP symptoms has not been fully elucidated. Hyperadrenergic activity and magnesium deficiency have been suggested. This study was designed to verify the concept that heavily symptomatic MVP is accompanied by hypomagnesemia and to elucidate whether magnesium supplementation alleviates the symptoms and influences adrenergic activity. We assessed serum magnesium in 141 subjects with heavily symptomatic primary MVP and in 40 healthy controls. Decreased serum magnesium was found in 60% of patients and in 5% of controls (p <0.0001). Patients with low serum magnesium were subjected to magnesium or placebo supplementation in a double-blind, crossover fashion. Typical symptoms of MVP (n = 13), intensity of anxiety, and daily excretion of catecholamines were determined. After 5 weeks, the mean number of symptoms per patient decreased from 10.4 +/- 2.1 to 5.6 +/- 2.5 (p <0.0001), and a significant reduction in weakness, chest pain, dyspnea, palpitations, and anxiety was observed. Increased noradrenaline excretion before and after magnesium was seen in 63% and 17% of patients, respectively (p <0.01). Mean daily excretion of noradrenaline and adrenaline was significantly diminished after magnesium. It is concluded that many patients with heavily symptomatic MVP have low serum magnesium, and supplementation of this ion leads to improvement in most symptoms along with a decrease in catecholamine excretion.
Posted by mattdds on May 17, 2003, at 11:46:44
In reply to Mitral Valve Prolapse and ADs, posted by Babysnakes on May 17, 2003, at 11:12:44
Hello,
I have mitral valve prolapse, and also happen to have panic disorder. I can't say that I'm a fellow "sufferer" because I don't really suffer from it. I was diagnosed when I was 17 and have no symptoms related to it, as far as I know.
In my second year of dental school, we had a cardiologist from Columbia University medical school give a lecture on valvular diseases in my pathology class. His opinion (and I believe that the majority of cardiologists) was that MVP is benign and unrelated to psychiatric problems.
There was some equivocal research showing a possible correlation between MVP and panic disorder, but I think later follow up studies did not show much correlation.
Either way, I am guessing your symptoms are something like panic disorder? Or what are your symptoms? Do you have a psych diagnosis? If you have panic disorder or generalized anxiety (I think you called it dysautonomia - referring to symptoms of autonomic arousal?), the treatment is the same whether you have MVP or not.
I wouldn't worry about MVP at all. In the vast majority of the cases, no treatment is needed for it.
It sounds like your problem is anxiety! So I would find out about getting a psychiatric diagnosis.
As far as SSRI's, they were terrible for me, but are helpful for some. I tried all of them, except Luvox. They significantly worsened my symptoms.
Benzodiazepines are my treatment of choice, namely Klonopin. I used to be sensitive to caffeine and stimulants, and they made me feel light-headed and dizzy. Now I can down 2 double espressos back to back, with no problem. This is nice because I enjoy coffee and it helps me study.
So don't sweat the MVP, there is usually no treatment needed, it really is just a benign condition in general. See if the Prozac helps, and if it does, great! If that doesn't help, I would go directly after some Klonopin or similar medication from the benzodiazepine family.
Hope this helps,
Matt
Posted by Babysnakes on May 17, 2003, at 13:39:42
In reply to Re: Mitral Valve Prolapse and ADs, posted by mattdds on May 17, 2003, at 11:46:44
> Hello,
>
> I have mitral valve prolapse, and also happen to have panic disorder. I can't say that I'm a fellow "sufferer" because I don't really suffer from it. I was diagnosed when I was 17 and have no symptoms related to it, as far as I know.
>
> In my second year of dental school, we had a cardiologist from Columbia University medical school give a lecture on valvular diseases in my pathology class. His opinion (and I believe that the majority of cardiologists) was that MVP is benign and unrelated to psychiatric problems.
>
> There was some equivocal research showing a possible correlation between MVP and panic disorder, but I think later follow up studies did not show much correlation.
>
> Either way, I am guessing your symptoms are something like panic disorder? Or what are your symptoms? Do you have a psych diagnosis? If you have panic disorder or generalized anxiety (I think you called it dysautonomia - referring to symptoms of autonomic arousal?), the treatment is the same whether you have MVP or not.
>
> I wouldn't worry about MVP at all. In the vast majority of the cases, no treatment is needed for it.
>
> It sounds like your problem is anxiety! So I would find out about getting a psychiatric diagnosis.
>
> As far as SSRI's, they were terrible for me, but are helpful for some. I tried all of them, except Luvox. They significantly worsened my symptoms.
>
> Benzodiazepines are my treatment of choice, namely Klonopin. I used to be sensitive to caffeine and stimulants, and they made me feel light-headed and dizzy. Now I can down 2 double espressos back to back, with no problem. This is nice because I enjoy coffee and it helps me study.
>
> So don't sweat the MVP, there is usually no treatment needed, it really is just a benign condition in general. See if the Prozac helps, and if it does, great! If that doesn't help, I would go directly after some Klonopin or similar medication from the benzodiazepine family.I've known I've had MVP since my early twenties. I'm not terribly concerned about it since my case is fairly mild. My only significant sympton however is the periodic anxiety attacks. I mostly have these under control with regular exercise and avoidance of stimulants. I also occasionally resort to a benzo (xanax) but usually only to stop a downward spiral into full blown panic. Not for general anxiety.
I'm taking prozac for unrelated depression (I assume it's unrelated), not to treat the anxiety attacks which like i said, I have pretty well under control. My problem is finding an AD that works without aggravating my apparently over sensitive nervous system. Right now, I'm having to take Xanax nightly because of the prozac and I guess I'm wondering will i adjust to the prozac or is this just never going to work with my dysautonomia.
Posted by Babysnakes on May 17, 2003, at 13:51:49
In reply to Re: Mitral Valve Prolapse and ADs, posted by Larry Hoover on May 17, 2003, at 11:39:44
> > Curious if anyone out there has Mitral Valve Prolapse or Dysautonomia and tried various ADs, especially SSRIs.
> >
> > It occurs to me that I've been hyper sensitive to stimulants of any kind since my early to mid twenties. It turns out I have MVP. Had to drop coffee first, then tea and finally I can only tolerate a Coca Cola now and then.
> >
> > My experience with Wellbutrin was predictably bad because of the stimulation and now I'm having trouble adjusting to Prozac. Although it seems to be getting a little better (up to 20 mgs) and on week two. Still intend to give it at least a months trial. Any thoughts from any MVP fellow sufferers or anyone else super sensitve to stimulants.
>
> You may be suffering from low magnesium levels. Stimulant sensitivity should diminish with magnesium, as well.
>
Interesting. I wasn't aware of a connection to magnesium, although I do understand that stress depletes the body of magnesium.I may try a mag supplement. Should it just be a standard 500 mg. Mag or Cal-Mag supplement in found in the health stores?
Posted by Ed on May 17, 2003, at 14:34:31
In reply to Re: Mitral Valve Prolapse and ADs, posted by Babysnakes on May 17, 2003, at 13:39:42
You mentioned that you developed a hypersensitivity to stimulants in your twenties. I did too. Anybody know what causes this hypersensitivity to develop?
Posted by mattdds on May 17, 2003, at 14:38:50
In reply to Re: Mitral Valve Prolapse and ADs, posted by Larry Hoover on May 17, 2003, at 11:39:44
Larry,
This research is really interesting. Have you gotten any obvious effects from magnesium? I found it interesting that it attenuated catecholamine release, which it (subjectively) feels like is my problem. It feels like I have a hair-trigger catecholamine release, or something. Sounds like Mg works something like benzos, in the sense that they prevent spikes of catecholamines. Does the magnesium attenuate catecholamine release centrally as well? Or just peripherally?
What is the best type of magnesium supplement? I remember reading somewhere that the oxides of Mg are essentially worthless as supplements, as they are not absorbed well. Or are they all the same?
Thanks,
Matt
Posted by Kari on May 17, 2003, at 15:03:57
In reply to Mitral Valve Prolapse and ADs, posted by Babysnakes on May 17, 2003, at 11:12:44
Hi,
I also have MVP and am super-sensitive to adrenaline and anything stimulating. The ADs you mentioned are too stimulating. Have you tried Celexa/Cipramil? It
is the most selective SSRI and I had no overstimulation problems on it (after it kicked in). Perhaps you can also try calcium/magnesium. That also worked for me but it is not a good idea to take supplements without consultation.
Kari.
Posted by McPac on May 18, 2003, at 12:36:54
In reply to Re: Mitral Valve Prolapse and ADs » Larry Hoover, posted by mattdds on May 17, 2003, at 14:38:50
"What is the best type of magnesium supplement? I remember reading somewhere that the oxides of Mg are essentially worthless as supplements, as they are not absorbed well. Or are they all the same?"
>>>>>>>>> Magnesium oxide is junk (not absorbed or utilized well at all). I would go with magnesium glycinate, a very absorbable form.
Posted by mattdds on May 18, 2003, at 19:58:46
In reply to matt, Re: Mitral Valve Prolapse and ADs, posted by McPac on May 18, 2003, at 12:36:54
Thanks McPac!
I'll have to give it a try. It couldn't hurt, and I do have the MVP diagnosis. Who knows? Wouldn't that rule if they also sold Klonopin at GNC? No more expensive pdoc visits.
Matt
Posted by Snoozy on May 18, 2003, at 21:47:19
In reply to Re: Mitral Valve Prolapse and ADs, posted by mattdds on May 17, 2003, at 11:46:44
Hi Matt-
I have heard that there can be a risk to patients with MVP when they have dental surgery. I think it was from bacteria - the recommendation I heard was to take an antibiotic shortly before the dental work. Can you enlighten us?
Thanks!
> Hello,
>
> I have mitral valve prolapse, and also happen to have panic disorder. I can't say that I'm a fellow "sufferer" because I don't really suffer from it. I was diagnosed when I was 17 and have no symptoms related to it, as far as I know.
>
> In my second year of dental school, we had a cardiologist from Columbia University medical school give a lecture on valvular diseases in my pathology class. His opinion (and I believe that the majority of cardiologists) was that MVP is benign and unrelated to psychiatric problems.
>
> There was some equivocal research showing a possible correlation between MVP and panic disorder, but I think later follow up studies did not show much correlation.
>
> Either way, I am guessing your symptoms are something like panic disorder? Or what are your symptoms? Do you have a psych diagnosis? If you have panic disorder or generalized anxiety (I think you called it dysautonomia - referring to symptoms of autonomic arousal?), the treatment is the same whether you have MVP or not.
>
> I wouldn't worry about MVP at all. In the vast majority of the cases, no treatment is needed for it.
>
> It sounds like your problem is anxiety! So I would find out about getting a psychiatric diagnosis.
>
> As far as SSRI's, they were terrible for me, but are helpful for some. I tried all of them, except Luvox. They significantly worsened my symptoms.
>
> Benzodiazepines are my treatment of choice, namely Klonopin. I used to be sensitive to caffeine and stimulants, and they made me feel light-headed and dizzy. Now I can down 2 double espressos back to back, with no problem. This is nice because I enjoy coffee and it helps me study.
>
> So don't sweat the MVP, there is usually no treatment needed, it really is just a benign condition in general. See if the Prozac helps, and if it does, great! If that doesn't help, I would go directly after some Klonopin or similar medication from the benzodiazepine family.
>
> Hope this helps,
>
> Matt
>
>
Posted by mattdds on May 18, 2003, at 22:56:04
In reply to Re: MVP/dental » mattdds, posted by Snoozy on May 18, 2003, at 21:47:19
Snoozy,
Great question. I see this at least once a week in the clinic at my school. There is indeed, a slight increase in incident of a severe, fulminating, and sometimes fatal infection called subacute bacterial endocarditis (SBE) after invasive dental procedures in people with *regurgitant* MVP. This infection is caused by colonization of Streptococcus organisms on the mitral valve. When it occurs, it is life-threatening! So these people need antibiotic prophylaxis. AB prophylaxis is typically 2 grams of amoxicillin in people who aren't allergic to it, or 600 mg of Cleocin (clindamycin) in people who have a penicillin allergy. Either one is taken 1 hour before an invasive procedure.
However, it is important to consult with a cardiologist, because some people with certain types of MVP don't need antibiotic prophylaxis. There are different types of MVP, as you may know. Some people with more severe MVP have actual regurgitation of blood back into the atrium of the heart. In others with mild MVP, it is merely the prolapsing of the valve backward (bending back) into the atrium, with no regurgitation of the blood.
As of now, the American Heart Association recommends that only people with MVP *WITH* regurgitation have antibiotic prophylaxis.
It is funny you bring this topic up, because I have a patient who has MVP *without* regurgitation (I personally talked to his cardiologist to make sure), and he still insists on AB prophylaxis. This is unnecessary and poses risks of its own (e.g. acute doses of AB's encourage resistant strains of bacteria, or anaphalaxis because of Type I hypersensitivity). He gets mad when I don't write the prescription, and somehow gets his own (he told me)!
Also, not all procedures need AB prophylaxis, even in people with regurgitant MVP. Only procedures that are expected to cause significant bacteremia (bacteria in the blood) require AB's. These would be things like a deep periodontal scaling and root planing, extractions. Simple fillings do not require AB's.
Keep in mind that SBE is extremely rare, even in people with regurgitant MVP. Some have even argued that AB prophylaxis *increases* mortality because of the increase in penicillin allergy and death due to anaphalaxis! Other things also cause bacteremia, e.g. brushing your teeth, chewing, etc. I get the feeling in a lot of cases it is more of a medicolegal issue than anything, and that AB's are over/mis-used in dentistry. So this is kind of a cloudy issue, but we are pretty sure that people with regurgitant MVP do benefit from AB prophylaxis before invasive dental procedures.
Hope this helps!
Matt
Posted by leeran on May 19, 2003, at 10:28:50
In reply to Re: MVP/dental, posted by mattdds on May 18, 2003, at 22:56:04
I had to take 1000 mg. of Zithromax prior to my procedure a week and a half ago.
I have MVP - not sure if I have the regurgitation. This may - or may not - be phen/fen related, however, I was only on the fen part of the combo a short time . . .
Several years ago a client of mine (I know him personally, this is not a "friend of a friend" story) had his teeth cleaned and ended up having (as I recall) a stroke or perhaps a heart attack (but I'm remembering a stroke, although now that I know more about this MVP "thing," a heart attack seems more likely).
He was quite ill - almost died - but did make a full recovery.
Posted by Snoozy on May 20, 2003, at 0:08:28
In reply to Re: MVP/dental, posted by mattdds on May 18, 2003, at 22:56:04
Hi Matt -
thanks for explaining it. This was quite some years ago, but my grandmother had MVP and she died after a dental surgery (several extractions if I recall). I don't think it was determined what did cause her death, but I read an article about the MVP/antibiotic issue a year or two ago and wondered.
Ok, now you've got me curious about another issue though! I know that antibiotic resistance is a very serious and threatening phenomenon for all of us. Does a one-time dose of an antibiotic present as much danger of causing resistance as not completing a course of AB or taking them because of a virus? Or is that something that can even be calculated?
I'm not looking for free dental advice, but does this look like a cavity to you? ;) Sorry, just being goofy. I found the news about how not receiving regular dental care can increase risk of stroke and heart attack very interesting. I wonder if we'll learn more about the connection between dental health and the rest of the body in the future.
Thanks again for the info, I appreciate it.
Posted by mattdds on May 20, 2003, at 15:42:09
In reply to Re: MVP/dental mattdds leeran, posted by Snoozy on May 20, 2003, at 0:08:28
Hey Snoozy,
Glad I could be of help! That is a tragedy about your grandmother, so sorry to hear that. I wonder if it was a problem with the general anesthesia, which would seem more likely than bacterial endocarditis. But I am just speculating.
Yes, this issue of antibiotic resistance is a big public health concern. You asked which would be a bigger risk, taking AB's and not finishing the course, or taking them from a virus. Each is problematic. I am not sure whether it can be determined which is worse, but maybe it is known by someone. But I do not know. Taking antibiotics for a bacterial infection seems particularly harmful, because the ones that survive the initial (but insufficient) barrage of antibiotics are in theory the most resistant, so one would be encouraging virulent strains to survive! Scary. Then when these survivors repopulate in a possible future infection, they may be completely resistant to the drug, and passed on to another person. We are now learning that these little bugs can pass on genes of resistance through little rings of DNA that they swap back and forth!
Unless you have an opportunistic bacterial infection secondary to a viral infection, taking antibiotics for a viral infection is bad practice as well, as I'm sure you're aware. So the old philosophy of "well, I'll take a round of penicillin...just in case it's bacterial" is very dangerous, especially from a public health standpoint. This is for the same reasons above.
During my first year of dental school, the periodontists (gum specialists) were excited about an association between periodontitis and heart disease (atherosclerosis). I remember hearing that people with periodontitis have higher levels of an inflammatory mediator called c-reactive protein (C-RP). It turns out that C-RP is being vigorously investigated as an etiologic factor in atherosclerosis and heart disease. We don't know whether the periodontitis is a direct causative factor, but there does seem to be an association.
There is also a somewhat strong association between periodontitis and low birthweight babies. Again, it is not certain whether the periodontitis is causative or if it is just another variable associated with a certain population of mothers who have low birth weight babies. For example, mothers that smoke or have poor access to healthcare (including dentistry) may also have lower birth weight babies, so they happen to have periodontitis, but it is not an etiologic factor. Does this make sense? Bottom line is that this is all interesting, but we just don't know for sure yet! Either way, it never hurts to brush, floss, and go to the dentist.
Can you send me an X-ray of the tooth in question? LOL.
Best,
Matt
Posted by Larry Hoover on May 21, 2003, at 13:55:31
In reply to Re: Mitral Valve Prolapse and ADs » Larry Hoover, posted by mattdds on May 17, 2003, at 14:38:50
> Larry,
>
> This research is really interesting. Have you gotten any obvious effects from magnesium?Well, I kind of wish I could go in for another echocardiogram, as I was diagnosed with MVP about a decade ago, before I got into supplements. I'd really like to know if I still have the same degree of regurgitation.
I've found recently that magnesium makes me dopey and subdued. That was not previously the case, so maybe I've "fixed" that part of my biochemical soup already.
>I found it interesting that it attenuated catecholamine release, which it (subjectively) feels like is my problem. It feels like I have a hair-trigger catecholamine release, or something. Sounds like Mg works something like benzos, in the sense that they prevent spikes of catecholamines. Does the magnesium attenuate catecholamine release centrally as well? Or just peripherally?
Hypersensitivity to stimuli is indeed associated with magnesium deficiency. The threshold for what is seen as novel (or surprising, if you will) is diminished in hypomagnesia.
If I recall correctly, magnesium attenuates glutamate (excitatory) receptor sensitivity, and thereby directly inhibits release of norepinephrine and epinephrine.
With respect to catecholamines, I'd surmise that central and peripheral effects would be similar.
> What is the best type of magnesium supplement? I remember reading somewhere that the oxides of Mg are essentially worthless as supplements, as they are not absorbed well. Or are they all the same?
MgO is not worthless, it's just worth less. MgO is not very soluble, even in acid, so that's the key consideration. Fully soluble magnesium salts like magnesium citrate, or mag sulphate (epsom salts) or chelates like the glycinate, are almost totally bioavailable. Start off with low doses initially, as a primary magnesium deficiency takes time to overcome. As your body adjusts to the enhanced availabilty of magnesium, it will ramp up the uptake mechanisms. Too much of any magnesium salt will induce diarrhea, which actually pulls magnesium out of the body.
> Thanks,
>
> MattWelcome.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on May 21, 2003, at 15:27:36
In reply to Re: Mitral Valve Prolapse and ADs » Larry Hoover, posted by mattdds on May 17, 2003, at 14:38:50
> What is the best type of magnesium supplement? I remember reading somewhere that the oxides of Mg are essentially worthless as supplements, as they are not absorbed well. Or are they all the same?
>
> Thanks,
>
> MattHere is a reference for the low bioavailability of mag oxide (4% of total magnesium). BTW, the MSDS for mag oxide puts solubility in water at 0.1%. Mag chloride is about 160 grams per 100 grams water.
Magnes Res 2001 Dec;14(4):257-62
Bioavailability of US commercial magnesium preparations.
Firoz M, Graber M.
Department of Veterans Affairs Medical Center, Northport, NY 11768, USA.
Magnesium deficiency is seen with some frequency in the outpatient setting and requires oral repletion or maintenance therapy. The purpose of this study was to measure the bioavailability of four commercially-available preparations of magnesium, and to test the claim that organic salts are more easily absorbed. Bioavailability was measured as the increment of urinary maginesium excretion in normal volunteers given approximately 21 mEq/day of the test preparations. Results indicated relatively poor bioavailability of magnesium oxide (fractional absorption 4 per cent) but significantly higher and equivalent bioavailability of magnesium chloride, magnesium lactate and magnesium aspartate. We conclude that there is relatively poor bioavailability of magnesium oxide, but greater and equivalent bioavailability of magnesium chloride, lactate, and aspartate. Inorganic magnesium salts, depending on the preparation, may have bioavailability equivalent to organic magnesium salts.
Posted by johnj on May 21, 2003, at 17:49:05
In reply to Re: Mitral Valve Prolapse and ADs » mattdds, posted by Larry Hoover on May 21, 2003, at 13:55:31
Hi Larry
How is the TMG and Enada going for you? I remember you saying that you usually had a crashed at the end of each month, but it didn't happen last month. I wonder if it is the Enada?
"I've found recently that magnesium makes me dopey and subdued. That was not previously the case, so maybe I've "fixed" that part of my biochemical soup already."
Did you have any sleep problems in addition to the dopey feeling? As you remember the Mg worked great for me then seemed to cause sleep problems. I am trying to understand or figure a way to judge my Mg reserves and maybe go on and off like you have mentioned. The reason I ask is that I had a horrible 3 days of little sleep and haven't felt that low in a year and a half. I ended up taking the leftover remeron I had. It is great for sleep, but has some nasty side effects. Mainly, a crunched up feeling in the forehead, some eye focusing problems, and some clarity. Do you think some TMG would be worth a try? Something to shake off the grogginess.
I saw your post on niacinamide. I had the flush with 500 mg too. Almost seemed to cause anxiety. Do you think niacinamide could calm a person, but at the same time be activating? I wonder if it could have contributed to my sleep problem. I may try trazadone if I can't take the remeron. But, I do know remeron does a great job with anixety, sleep, and to an extent helps my math ability at work. Hard to explain, a little spacey, but my way of joking and appreciaton of music returned????? Wish I knew how or what receptors it is acting upon.
One troubling item is the spaciness or anixety after eating. Could that be cortisol or something else? To me, it is something that is very much a body reaction to the food, not stress.
Hope the trucking is going safe and sound. Thanks Larry and have a good one.
johnj
Posted by McPac on May 21, 2003, at 20:36:58
In reply to Re: Mitral Valve Prolapse and ADs » Larry Hoover, posted by johnj on May 21, 2003, at 17:49:05
"One troubling item is the spaciness or anixety after eating. Could that be cortisol or something else? To me, it is something that is very much a body reaction to the food, not stress".
Digestive problem...lack of digestive enzymes perhaps?
Posted by McPac on May 21, 2003, at 20:53:43
In reply to Re: Mitral Valve Prolapse and ADs » mattdds, posted by Larry Hoover on May 21, 2003, at 13:55:31
"If I recall correctly, magnesium attenuates glutamate (excitatory) receptor sensitivity, and thereby directly inhibits release of norepinephrine and epinephrine".
>>>>Lar,...I thought I'd read that ocd had a very negative association with glutamates....sounds like magnesium might help ocd'ers???
Posted by mattdds on May 21, 2003, at 23:13:42
In reply to Re: Mitral Valve Prolapse and ADs » mattdds, posted by Larry Hoover on May 21, 2003, at 13:55:31
Posted by Larry Hoover on May 22, 2003, at 8:19:27
In reply to Re: Mitral Valve Prolapse and ADs, posted by McPac on May 21, 2003, at 20:53:43
> "If I recall correctly, magnesium attenuates glutamate (excitatory) receptor sensitivity, and thereby directly inhibits release of norepinephrine and epinephrine".
>
> >>>>Lar,...I thought I'd read that ocd had a very negative association with glutamates....sounds like magnesium might help ocd'ers???I hate using mechanisms as an argument for treatment based on a possible correlation..... What you suggest seems reasonable on its face, but I have not heard of using magnesium for OCD.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on May 22, 2003, at 8:46:01
In reply to Re: Mitral Valve Prolapse and ADs » Larry Hoover, posted by johnj on May 21, 2003, at 17:49:05
> Hi Larry
>
> How is the TMG and Enada going for you? I remember you saying that you usually had a crashed at the end of each month, but it didn't happen last month. I wonder if it is the Enada?One different response is not a convincing pattern for me. I just got back from a brutal month of work, and we'll see how I do this month. Believe me, I will be very happy to discover I do not crash. Time will tell.
Ordinarily, towards the end of the work month, I can "feel it coming". I can't say I feel that way right now. Fingers crossed.
> "I've found recently that magnesium makes me dopey and subdued. That was not previously the case, so maybe I've "fixed" that part of my biochemical soup already."
>
> Did you have any sleep problems in addition to the dopey feeling?I always have sleep problems. I medicate for sleep (temazepam 30 mg). When I was taking magnesium malate at bedtime, I had a pronounced hangover effect, which differs from my typical experience.
>As you remember the Mg worked great for me then seemed to cause sleep problems. I am trying to understand or figure a way to judge my Mg reserves and maybe go on and off like you have mentioned. The reason I ask is that I had a horrible 3 days of little sleep and haven't felt that low in a year and a half. I ended up taking the leftover remeron I had. It is great for sleep, but has some nasty side effects. Mainly, a crunched up feeling in the forehead, some eye focusing problems, and some clarity. Do you think some TMG would be worth a try? Something to shake off the grogginess.
TMG may well shake off the grogginess, but in my experience, it makes sleep more difficult. You may have a different response.
I was discussing Enada NADH with a person on the fibro board, and she uses it to induce sleep. For me, it blocks sleep. Go figure.
> I saw your post on niacinamide. I had the flush with 500 mg too. Almost seemed to cause anxiety.
I would suggest that your anxiety reaction was due to the discomfort of the niacin flush. Are you sure you got it from niacinamide (also called nicotinamide), rather than niacin (also known as nicotinic acid)?
>Do you think niacinamide could calm a person, but at the same time be activating?
It has both stimulatory and sedating properties, but I'd wager most people get sedation as the primary effect. Anything's possible. That's why I suggest someone try a supplement, go off it, and try it again later. You need to see a pattern develop, rather than form conclusions on a single set of observations. You may be dealing with coincidence (literally, two things happening at the same time, by chance).
>I wonder if it could have contributed to my sleep problem. I may try trazadone if I can't take the remeron. But, I do know remeron does a great job with anixety, sleep, and to an extent helps my math ability at work. Hard to explain, a little spacey, but my way of joking and appreciaton of music returned????? Wish I knew how or what receptors it is acting upon.
You *like* trazadone? Whoa! I get such a hangover from it.
Why don't you see if you can get some temazepam (Restoril), or oxazepam. Nitrazepam is a metabolite of oxazepam, so either one will help with your sleep, and the half-life is such that it's pretty well gone by morning.
> One troubling item is the spaciness or anixety after eating. Could that be cortisol or something else? To me, it is something that is very much a body reaction to the food, not stress.I used to get that too. I think I got it worse when I was eating out, so I concluded that it was from highly processed foods. Additives? High glycemic index? I don't get it any more, but that may be due to the many ways I now know to look after myself.
> Hope the trucking is going safe and sound.Gotta love driving a Peterbilt that can do 80 mph when needed.
>Thanks Larry and have a good one.
>
> johnjYou're welcome John. Good luck.
Lar
This is the end of the thread.
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