![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 3 to 27 of 27. Go back in thread:
Posted by linkadge on April 23, 2003, at 12:50:32
In reply to Re: Are there natural Dopamine enhancers?, posted by Paulie on April 23, 2003, at 12:26:29
Linkadge
Posted by jemma on April 23, 2003, at 14:53:52
In reply to Re: Are there natural Dopamine enhancers?, posted by Paulie on April 23, 2003, at 12:26:29
Also Ritalin and other stimulants.
- jemma
Posted by Caleb462 on April 23, 2003, at 22:00:46
In reply to Re: Are there natural Dopamine enhancers?, posted by jemma on April 23, 2003, at 14:53:52
Cocaine.
Posted by Ron Hill on April 24, 2003, at 1:32:46
In reply to Are there natural Dopamine enhancers?, posted by Neo on April 23, 2003, at 12:06:11
> Are there natural Dopamine enhancers?
> Thanx for your share
> NeoEnada NADH does this nicely for me. Here are some of the links discussing Enada NADH:
http://www.healthwell.com/hnbreakthroughs/mar98/nadh.cfm?path=hw
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/htbin-post/Entrez/query?uid=8101444&form=6&db=m&Dopt=b
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/htbin-post/Entrez/query?uid=9247090&form=6&db=m&Dopt=b
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/htbin-post/Entrez/query?uid=9013405&form=6&db=m&Dopt=b
http://www.wholehealthmd.com/refshelf/substances_view/1,1525,10047,00.html#Cautions
http://www.nadh.com/site7/SYSact20.htm#Top
http://www.nadh.com/site7/RSdprs05.htm#Top
http://www.smart-drugs.com/article-JamesSouth-NADH.htm
http://www.nadh-priceinfo.org/
http://qualitycounts.com/fpnadh.html
http://www.immunesupport.com/library/showarticle.cfm/id/3118/T/Both/
http://www.immunesupport.com/library/powersearch2.cfm (Note: enter “NADH” as keyword)
Posted by Questionmark on April 24, 2003, at 1:54:32
In reply to Are there natural Dopamine enhancers?, posted by Neo on April 23, 2003, at 12:06:11
blessed caffeine.
Posted by Edgefield on April 24, 2003, at 15:26:59
In reply to Re: Are there natural Dopamine enhancers? » Neo, posted by Ron Hill on April 24, 2003, at 1:32:46
Ron, how much are you taking? Does it really improve your mood? Thanks for the info.
God Blesss
Edgefield
> > Are there natural Dopamine enhancers?
> > Thanx for your share
> > Neo
>
> Enada NADH does this nicely for me. Here are some of the links discussing Enada NADH:
>
> http://www.healthwell.com/hnbreakthroughs/mar98/nadh.cfm?path=hw
>
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/htbin-post/Entrez/query?uid=8101444&form=6&db=m&Dopt=b
>
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/htbin-post/Entrez/query?uid=9247090&form=6&db=m&Dopt=b
>
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/htbin-post/Entrez/query?uid=9013405&form=6&db=m&Dopt=b
>
> http://www.wholehealthmd.com/refshelf/substances_view/1,1525,10047,00.html#Cautions
>
> http://www.nadh.com/site7/SYSact20.htm#Top
>
> http://www.nadh.com/site7/RSdprs05.htm#Top
>
> http://www.smart-drugs.com/article-JamesSouth-NADH.htm
>
> http://www.nadh-priceinfo.org/
>
> http://qualitycounts.com/fpnadh.html
>
> http://www.immunesupport.com/library/showarticle.cfm/id/3118/T/Both/
>
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=12385067&dopt=Abstract
>
> http://www.immunesupport.com/library/powersearch2.cfm (Note: enter “NADH” as keyword)
>
>
>
>
Posted by pelorojo on April 24, 2003, at 18:51:39
In reply to Re: Are there natural Dopamine enhancers? » Ron Hill, posted by Edgefield on April 24, 2003, at 15:26:59
there's herbal L-Dopa, mucuna pruriens extract
Posted by Ron Hill on April 29, 2003, at 10:42:03
In reply to Re: Are there natural Dopamine enhancers? » Ron Hill, posted by Edgefield on April 24, 2003, at 15:26:59
> Ron, how much are you taking? Does it really improve your mood? Thanks for the info.
Hi Edgefield,
I apologize for taking so long to respond. It seems that I have more to do than I can get done these days. To answer your questions, I’ll cut and paste from previous posts and fill in a little more detail here and there. This should give you a pretty good overview of my on-going experience with Enada NADH.
Written during Week 6: Please remember that I’m in the early stages (sixth week) of this Enada NADH trial, so these results should be treated as preliminary in nature. Here’s what I have experienced so far.
I started out taking 10 mg/day of the sublingual formulation (EnadAlert NADH). I felt my atypical depression (low motivation, anergy, anhedonia, hypersomnia) and dysphoric mood states (extreme irritability) begin to lift within thirty seconds after placing the sublingual tablet under my tongue. Within three days, my depression and dysphoric mood states were in complete remission. It snapped me out of a three-month-long deep depressive cycle that I just could not pull myself out of.After ten days, however, this dose (and formulation) induced irritability. So I switched to the enteric-coated Enada NADH “down-the-hatch” formulation. I took one of the 5 mg tablets per day. The irritability immediately stopped and the remarkable AD benefits continued.
However, four weeks into the trial I began to get VERY sleepy about four hours after my dose. Therefore, I skipped my dose for two days. The sleepiness went away on the first skipped day and the positive benefits remained.
For the past two weeks, I have been experimenting with my dosing schedule to find the optimal maintenance dosage for my body. When using 5 mg tablets, the schedule that seems to work best for me is to take 5 mg on day one, skip days two and three, and repeat the sequence starting on day four. When I tried skipping three days, my dysphoric mood states and low motivation begin to reappear on the third skipped day. I ordered some 2.5 mg tablets and they arrived yesterday. My plan is to try 2.5 mg every other day starting tommorrow.Ray Sahelian, M.D., in his book titled "Mind Boosters: A Guide to Natural Supplements that Enhance Your Mind, Memory, and Mood", recommends taking no more than 2.5 mg two or three times per week. His main concerns regarding higher doses are the potential for building a tolerance to NADH and that the medical community doesn't know a lot about this stuff yet. My preliminary assessment is that I'll probably end up taking about 2.5 mg three times per week as a maintenance dose. Time will tell with regard to the dose and whether this stuff has any long-term efficacy.
This may have been more information than you wanted. I can get a little long winded. Knowing what I know now, I would have started by taking 5 mg/day of the enteric-coated product for a week or so to get a kick start, and then I’d titrate down to 2.5 mg every other day. But everyone is unique so your mileage (and dosage) may vary.
Written during Week 7: For those who have been following my trial of Enada NADH, a maintenance dose of 2.5 mg every other day has started to cause severe irritability. I plan to further reduce the dose in hopes of finding a dosage that continues to keep my atypical depression at bay while, at the same time, does not exacerbate my dysphoric mood states.
Written during Week 8: Enada NADH is working well for me. I am still in the process of titrating the dose in the downward direction. I currently take 2.5 mg every fourth day (Take 2.5 mg on day one; skip days two, three, and four; take 2.5 mg on day five). As you know, during the acute treatment phase of my atypical depression, 10 mg/day was a good dose. The amount required for my maintenance dose continues to decline. My long-term steady-state maintenance dose might end up in the range of 2.5 mg once per week. Time will tell.If I take more than I need of this stuff, I become very irritable.
Written during Week 10: I'm still taking one 2.5 mg enteric-coated tablet every four days and I'm thankful that, so far, it continues to do a good job treating my atypical depression.One thing that I do not like about my current dosing schedule, however, is that my mood fluctuates in accordance with the dosing cycle. On the day that I take the supplement (Day One), I feel over-energized and somewhat irritable. Day Two is a good day; focused, motivated, on task, and happy (for the most part). The first half of Day Three is very similar to Day Two, but in the second half of Day Three, I begin to lose my motivation and drive. On Day Four my motivation is markedly lower and I begin to feel a little depressed. The process repeats itself beginning on Day Five when I take another 2.5 mg dose.
I think my results with Enada NADH could be further improved if I could take 0.5 mg every day instead of 2.5 mg every four days. The problem is that the smallest tablet size that I have found on the market is 2.5 mg. Larry, please let me know if you ever see a 0.5 mg sized product on the market.
I could try to divide a 10 mg sublingual tablet into twenty equal portions, but I would need a mortar and pestle, and a scale accurate to a tenth of a milligram or better. In the past, every time I have tried to find a place to buy these simple pieces of lab equipment, I am viewed as a suspected illegal drug dealer. Further, I like the enteric-coated product better than the sublingual formulation because it seems to have a smoother action. So what I would prefer is to be able to buy 0.5 mg enteric-coated tablets.
Written during Week 13: Some of the writings of Larry Hoover and Scott (SLS) prompted me to do some reading on TMG (betaine) and several days ago I started taking about 250 mg/day of it. TMG seems to work in a favorable synergistic way with the Enada NADH. As a result, I am now taking 2.5 mg of Enada NADH only once per week. It’s too early to know how this will all shake out, but so far so (very) good.As you know, Enada NADH has been very beneficial in the treatment of the atypical depressive side of my BP II. But when I was taking 2.5 mg every four days without the TMG I would get irritable on the day I took it and begin to lose my motivation and become depressed on day four of the dosing schedule. Further, it seemed that as time passed the irritability on the front-end and the depression on the tail-end both were getting worse. The recent addition of the TMG has solved this problem (at least for now).
I also have added a few milligrams of 5-HTP administered sublingually on a PRN basis for treatment of any breakthrough irritability. I don't seem to need the 5-HTP very often, and certainly not every day, but when I do need it, it seems to take the edge off nicely. I have adopted the position that one of the keys to using supplements successfully is to minimize the dose and to take periodic "supplement holidays".
Written today (Week 14): Edgefield, as it currently stands I would characterize the effectiveness of Enada NADH and TMG as profound (in my case) and 5-HTP as useful but not necessarily profound. General rule for supplement use (IMHO): More is not necessaily better and less may, in fact, improve the efficacy.As an side, I take many other vitamins, minerals, and supplements. At the top of the list with regard to usefulness is magnesium and fish oil. 1000 mg/day of magnesium really helps my sleep and 20 ml (4 tsp)/day of fish oil helps stabilize my mood.
-- Ron
Posted by JGm on May 2, 2003, at 11:09:46
In reply to Enada NADH Trial: Summary (long) as of Week 14 » Edgefield, posted by Ron Hill on April 29, 2003, at 10:42:03
That's great for you, Ron! Very interesting for me! I suffer of same diseases.
1 question:
Nadh began to work immediately or it takes weeks to be effective?
It enhanced your mood and interests too?
thanx in advance!
GJm
Posted by KarenB on May 3, 2003, at 12:00:40
In reply to Enada NADH Trial: Summary (long) as of Week 14 » Edgefield, posted by Ron Hill on April 29, 2003, at 10:42:03
Ron,
Thank you for your detailed trial notes. They are extremely helpful. So many times when someone says something "works," they fail to list the dosage --not very helpful.
I have been searching for something to up my Dopamine ever since a few months ago when they pulled Amineptine from Argentina from where I was having it shipped (I'm in the US). I know this is where my problem lies but trying to convince doctors is another matter. SSRIs only succeed in making me extremely groggy and irritable.
Are you Bipolar as well? Do you feel that the TMG has stabilizing qualities?
Thanks again for your thorough trial notes.
Karen in Denver
Posted by KarenB on May 3, 2003, at 14:39:01
In reply to Enada NADH Trial: Summary (long) as of Week 14 » Edgefield, posted by Ron Hill on April 29, 2003, at 10:42:03
>>Written during Week 13: Some of the writings of Larry Hoover and Scott (SLS) prompted me to do some reading on TMG (betaine) and several days ago I started taking about 250 mg/day of it. TMG seems to work in a favorable synergistic way with the Enada NADH.
Ron,
I just went to the health food store to get some NADH and TMG and could only find TMG in 750g, not mg. Did you mean to say grams? If not, where are you finding this dose?
Thanks,
Karen
Posted by Ron Hill on May 9, 2003, at 2:45:26
In reply to Re: NADH Trial: as of Week 14 » Ron Hill, posted by KarenB on May 3, 2003, at 12:00:40
> Are you Bipolar as well?
Yes, I'm BP II.
> Karen in Denver
I lived in Colorado for eight years in the late 70's. I graduated from CU in Boulder. Colorado is a pretty place, huh?
-- Ron
Posted by KarenB on May 12, 2003, at 13:27:53
In reply to Re: Enada NADH » KarenB, posted by Ron Hill on May 9, 2003, at 2:45:26
Ron,
Yes, it's still a beautiful place here in Colorado. Much more beautiful than what I can presently experience, in my current mixed state/depressive/migriane/manic condition, though.
I just read the label on my multi vitamin, which apparently has 300mg of TMG. Do you think that's why the NADH had such a irritating effect on me? I'm going to try it again, this time at just 2.5mg and see what happens.
Any other suggestions for Dopaminergic ADs?
Thanks!
Karen
Posted by Ron Hill on May 13, 2003, at 11:06:01
In reply to Re: Enada NADH » Ron Hill, posted by KarenB on May 12, 2003, at 13:27:53
Hi Karen,
> I just read the label on my multi vitamin, which apparently has 300mg of TMG. Do you think that's why the NADH had such a irritating effect on me?
I doubt it. It's probably the Enada NADH in and of itself causing the irritability.
> I'm going to try it again, this time at just 2.5mg and see what happens.
Let us know how it goes.
> Any other suggestions for Dopaminergic ADs?
Selegiline, Provigil, and Mirapex are among the dopaminergic medications on my "might-try" list if Enada NADH were to poop-out. I've never tried any of these, so I'm not in a position to make recommendations.
-- Ron
Posted by KarenB on May 13, 2003, at 15:36:23
In reply to Re: Enada NADH » KarenB, posted by Ron Hill on May 13, 2003, at 11:06:01
Posted by btnd on May 14, 2003, at 3:26:18
In reply to Re: Enada NADH » KarenB, posted by Ron Hill on May 13, 2003, at 11:06:01
> Selegiline, Provigil, and Mirapex are among the dopaminergic medications on my "might-try" list if Enada NADH were to poop-out. I've never tried any of these, so I'm not in a position to make recommendations.
What do you think about using Mirapex with Enada NADH ? Would it be a good idea? Right now, I've tried 5 mg coated Enada-NADH every few days and I can definitely feel motivation/energy (I'm 100% sure it's not a placebo effect), but I'd really like to find something that would totally help out with my dysthymia, just like Adderall did, before it pooped out. I'm also thinking of trying amisulpride+NADH or adrafinil. Provigil is way too expensive for me to even think about using it on a regular basis :(
Take care.
Posted by Ron Hill on May 14, 2003, at 9:45:53
In reply to Enada NADH + Mirapex?, posted by btnd on May 14, 2003, at 3:26:18
btnd,
> What do you think about using Mirapex with Enada NADH ? Would it be a good idea?
I don't know the answer to your question. Sorry.
-- Ron
Posted by Ame Sans Vie on May 14, 2003, at 12:43:52
In reply to Re: Enada NADH + Mirapex? » btnd, posted by Ron Hill on May 14, 2003, at 9:45:53
> btnd,
>
> > What do you think about using Mirapex with Enada NADH ? Would it be a good idea?
>
> I don't know the answer to your question. Sorry.
>
> -- RonI just started Mirapex on Monday and am already feeling some wonderful effects. The only thing I don't like about it is that higher doses cause some pretty bad nausea... so I may try adding on Enada NADH, lowering the dose of Mirapex a little, and then fill you in on how it turns out!
Posted by JohnB55 on May 15, 2003, at 12:21:00
In reply to Re: Enada NADH + Mirapex?, posted by Ame Sans Vie on May 14, 2003, at 12:43:52
Ame Sans Vie,
You recently wrote here:
"I've read dozens of clinical studies that evaluate the drug Mirapex (pramipexole- and anti-parkinson drug) as being a terrific antidepressant, as well as working beautifully for anhedonia, lack of motivation, dysthymia, reward, and even SSRI-induced apathy"
I am looking for a med that will alleviate the SSRI-induced apathy that I experience due to excessive SSRI-induced daytime sedation. I am currently taking Paxil at much-lower-than-normal doses (less than 5mg per night) which works ok somewhat for my depression, but I really need to take the Paxil at normal doses (such as 20mg per night or higher) in order for the Paxil to effectively deal with my anxiety/OCD.
My problem is that the Paxil is too sedating for me at the normal adult dosing level, and thus I am looking for something to alleviate Paxil's daytime sedative effect upon me so I can take the Paxil at normal adult dosing levels such as 20mg per night or higher.
I have already tried Wellbutrin, but it didn't seem to help, that is why I am interested in what you wrote about Mirapex helping SSRI-induced apathy.
Do you think that Mirapex might help alleviate the apathy that I experience due to Paxil's sedative effect upon me?
Also, where can I obtain some clinical studies on the web that would explain Mirapex's benefits for SSRI-induced apathy, just in case I need to make the case to my pdoc.
As I understand from what I have read here, I would still need some kind of SSRI AD med for my anxiety/OCD, since Mirapex itself is not an effective treatment for anxiety/OCD, correct?
Thanks,
JohnB
Posted by Donna Louise on May 18, 2003, at 15:44:18
In reply to SSRI (Paxil) + Mirapex?, posted by JohnB55 on May 15, 2003, at 12:21:00
> Ame Sans Vie,
>
> You recently wrote here:
>
> "I've read dozens of clinical studies that evaluate the drug Mirapex (pramipexole- and anti-parkinson drug) as being a terrific antidepressant, as well as working beautifully for anhedonia, lack of motivation, dysthymia, reward, and even SSRI-induced apathy"
>
> I am looking for a med that will alleviate the SSRI-induced apathy that I experience due to excessive SSRI-induced daytime sedation. I am currently taking Paxil at much-lower-than-normal doses (less than 5mg per night) which works ok somewhat for my depression, but I really need to take the Paxil at normal doses (such as 20mg per night or higher) in order for the Paxil to effectively deal with my anxiety/OCD.
>
> My problem is that the Paxil is too sedating for me at the normal adult dosing level, and thus I am looking for something to alleviate Paxil's daytime sedative effect upon me so I can take the Paxil at normal adult dosing levels such as 20mg per night or higher.
>
> I have already tried Wellbutrin, but it didn't seem to help, that is why I am interested in what you wrote about Mirapex helping SSRI-induced apathy.
>
> Do you think that Mirapex might help alleviate the apathy that I experience due to Paxil's sedative effect upon me?
>
> Also, where can I obtain some clinical studies on the web that would explain Mirapex's benefits for SSRI-induced apathy, just in case I need to make the case to my pdoc.
>
> As I understand from what I have read here, I would still need some kind of SSRI AD med for my anxiety/OCD, since Mirapex itself is not an effective treatment for anxiety/OCD, correct?
>
> Thanks,
>
> JohnB
>Dear John,
I know exactly how you are feeling. I too apparantly need the SSRI for the type of depression and anxiety I have yet it seems to create a new kind of depression of its own. I have been taking 400mg of Provigil and I feel like I have my life back. It seems to be reversing the effects of the SSRI like apathy and sleepiness. I love this drug, no side effects, may even be improving the sexual side effects some too. I had to start with 50 mg but was able to move up pretty quickly. 200mg was not enough for me to achieve all these great benefits and now that it has been almost 6 weeks and I keep feeling better, I am starting to relax and believe this is real!
Hope this helps,
Donna
Posted by JohnB55 on May 18, 2003, at 17:58:50
In reply to Re: SSRI (Paxil) + Mirapex?, posted by Donna Louise on May 18, 2003, at 15:44:18
>
I have been taking 400mg of Provigil and I feel like I have my life back.
>Donna Louise,
Thank you for that info.
What class of med is Provigil, and what is it primarily used for?
Thanks again,
JohnB
Posted by Donna Louise on May 18, 2003, at 20:23:33
In reply to Re: SSRI + Provigil? » Donna Louise, posted by JohnB55 on May 18, 2003, at 17:58:50
>
> >
> I have been taking 400mg of Provigil and I feel like I have my life back.
> >
>
> Donna Louise,
>
> Thank you for that info.
as an and what is it primarily used for?
>
> Thanks again,
>
> JohnB
>Click here: Modafinil ( Provigil ) as an antidepressant ?
I am trying to give you a link, don't know if it will work. I am not very good on the computer. If you enter provigil in the archive search, you will find a bunch of info and other links too.
The short version, it is a psycho-stimulant that has been FDA approved for narcolepsy. It is the active metabolite in Adrafanil, a drug used in France as an antidepressant. It is not an amphetamine and doesn't have the side effects of an amphetamine, they aren't really sure how it works.The cost is prohibitive without insurance for most of us. Anyway, there is alot of detailed info in the archives.
Good luck to you John,Donna
Posted by Caleb462 on May 18, 2003, at 23:55:03
In reply to Re: SSRI + Provigil? » Donna Louise, posted by JohnB55 on May 18, 2003, at 17:58:50
Like Donna said... Provigil is a stimulant that has a much lower side effect profile than amphetamines and other common stimulants.
Pharmacologically speaking.... it activates alpha-1 adrenergic receptors, increases glutamate activity, and increases dopamine transmission through GABA inhibition and weak reuptake inhibition.
I've been using it for a little over a week at 200 mg, along with my daily Effexor (225 mg)... I have noticed mostly mild effects. I may need to raise the dose to 400 mg, though I'm scared to due to my anxiety problems.
Posted by Snoozy on May 19, 2003, at 0:55:45
In reply to Re: SSRI + Provigil?, posted by Caleb462 on May 18, 2003, at 23:55:03
I've also been using Provigil (200mg) for a week now, in addition to my regular 400mg Wellbutrin. The effects have been mild for me too - it's not like drinking a pot of coffee or anything. I am sleeping somewhat less (13-15 hours a day before). If you do go up to 400 on the Provigil, I'd be interested in hearing how it goes. I'm not sure where I'm going with my Provigil use.
> Like Donna said... Provigil is a stimulant that has a much lower side effect profile than amphetamines and other common stimulants.
>
> Pharmacologically speaking.... it activates alpha-1 adrenergic receptors, increases glutamate activity, and increases dopamine transmission through GABA inhibition and weak reuptake inhibition.
>
> I've been using it for a little over a week at 200 mg, along with my daily Effexor (225 mg)... I have noticed mostly mild effects. I may need to raise the dose to 400 mg, though I'm scared to due to my anxiety problems.
>
>
Posted by Donna Louise on May 19, 2003, at 6:30:49
In reply to Re: SSRI + Provigil? » Caleb462, posted by Snoozy on May 19, 2003, at 0:55:45
> I've also been using Provigil (200mg) for a week now, in addition to my regular 400mg Wellbutrin. The effects have been mild for me too - it's not like drinking a pot of coffee or anything. I am sleeping somewhat less (13-15 hours a day before). If you do go up to 400 on the Provigil, I'd be interested in hearing how it goes. I'm not sure where I'm going with my Provigil use.
>Caleb and Snoozy,
Anxiety has been my life-long companion so it was a concern of mine to increase too. But happily going to 400mg helped that too, alot! I did not get the full benefits of this drug until I went to 400mg. My pdoc says 200mg is more of a starting dose for most. I went to 300mg first but only had to stay there for a couple of days. I find that I adapt quickly to this drug and can move up quickly. I had to start at 50mg though! At 400mg I do not need to go higher, I am right where I want to be and after 4 weeks on this dose I am just feeling better, the effect is not diminishing. I hope you two have the same great effect that I am having,
Donna
> > Like Donna said... Provigil is a stimulant that has a much lower side effect profile than amphetamines and other common stimulants.
> >
> > Pharmacologically speaking.... it activates alpha-1 adrenergic receptors, increases glutamate activity, and increases dopamine transmission through GABA inhibition and weak reuptake inhibition.
> >
> > I've been using it for a little over a week at 200 mg, along with my daily Effexor (225 mg)... I have noticed mostly mild effects. I may need to raise the dose to 400 mg, though I'm scared to due to my anxiety problems.
> >
> >
>
>
This is the end of the thread.
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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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