![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 20 to 44 of 205. Go back in thread:
Posted by Questionmark on March 30, 2003, at 1:35:40
In reply to Miraculous results with magnesium!, posted by JLx on March 29, 2003, at 5:49:41
Just to keep the information balanced... i've been using magnesium supplements for the past few weeks (mg glycinate and mg citrate, getting aproximately 100% RDA) and i haven't noticed anything.
i don't know.
Posted by bluedog on March 30, 2003, at 4:33:36
In reply to Re: Miraculous results with magnesium!, posted by Larry Hoover on March 29, 2003, at 8:54:58
> > Hi all, this is my first post here though I have lurked from time to time. I found George Eby's "Rapid Recovery From Severe, Stress-Induced Depression Using Magnesium" site http://www.coldcure.com/html/dep.html linked on a British online psychiatry journal.
>
> I think everyone should have a look at this site. There are references to other potentially comorbid conditions as well, such as fibromyalgia
> and chronic fatigue.
>
> >
> > I started on magnesium glycinate and quit my meds (Zoloft, Provigil) 24 hours later because I was already feeling so much better. (Not recommended, I know, but I could NOT bring myself to take what now felt like poison.)
>
> Another excellent form is magnesium malate, something highly recommended for fibro sufferers.
>
> > I've also been reading "Depression Free Naturally" by Joan Mathews Larson, "Your Miracle Brain" by Jean Carper, "The Cortisol Connection" by Shawn Talbott, and "The Omega-3 Connection" by Andrew Stoll. Between the info in those books and my recent experience, I am wondering if ALL of our mental illnesses are related to nutritional deficiencies -- if we can just figure out which ones apply to us individually. As someone said, "Where do neurotransmitters come from?"
>
> I am grateful and excited to hear about your superb results.
>
> I suggest a more cautious position than you, however. I agree that nutritional issues may be prominent in many mental disorders, but I think there are other unrelated factors. I think everyone should try different suppportive nutrients, to see if improvements are possible via methods which are entirely within the subjects' control. That's what I most like about nutritional strategies, they are totally within my control. I do better when I monitor and supplement my intake of nutrients than when I do not trouble myself to do so (and trouble myself is an apt phrase here). I am what I eat.
>
>Hi Larry
I thought I was doing the right thing with my magnesium supplements. The particular brand I take contains the following magnesium compounds in each tablet for a total of 73mg elemental magnesium per tablet:-
Magnesium orotate 200mg
(eqiuv. 13mg magnesium)Magnesium aspartate 200mg
(equiv. 13.4mg magnesium)Magnesium amino acid chelate 150mg
(equiv. 30mg magnesium)Magnesium phosphate 80mg
(equiv. 16.5mg magnesium)
Now having read George Eby's "Rapid Recovery From Severe, Stress-Induced Depression Using Magnesium" site I saw that he considers magnesium aspartate as toxic and now I am worried!!!!!I therefore have some questions for you Larry:-
1) Am I actually worsening my depression by taking this particular formulation?
2) Should I discontinue taking these tablets because of the magnesium aspartate content (I just bought a new bottle of 100 tablets)?
3) What is magnesium amino acid chelate in the context of your explanation in this thread on what the various magnesium compounds mean?
Thanks Larry
warm regards
bluedog
Posted by beardedlady on March 30, 2003, at 6:05:44
In reply to Lazy girl wants magnesium answers..., posted by kara lynne on March 30, 2003, at 0:36:03
>If I were to walk in a health food store tomorrow, with a very sensitive digestive system, what would someone recommend I start at? I know I'm being lazy, but maybe someone will indulge me--if I promise to read more later!
I'm lazy too, but I read George Eby's whole site and THEN I e-mailed him! : )>
He recommends (for me & my insomnia) taking 200 mg. with every meal and 200 mg. at bedtime to start (800/day). (He likes 400mg. with each meal.) He also says you have to take probiotics (good bacteria like that found in yogurt) to avoid having the magnesium leak out of you. Go to his site for more information about that. The link is on the thread starter. (I think this is it: http://coldcure.com/html/dep.html)
(Does this sound right to you, Larry and everyone? I'm especially curious about the necessity of probiotics. Is everyone on magnesium here using these?)
He says Carlson chelated magnesium is the best (photo at his site), but avoid other products that say "'chelated magnesium' because it could be one of the toxic amino acid forms --particularly lethal is magnesium glutamate."
I think, though, you can tell by the label what kind of magnesium you are getting, and I'd say to look for two you mentioned. I'm heading there myself today.
Good luck to us.
beardy : )>
I'm going to start out much lower than that, as I am a chicken about things in pill form.Remember the olden days when we actually took pills FOR their side effects?!
beardy : )>
Posted by beardedlady on March 30, 2003, at 6:15:22
In reply to Other Experiences, posted by Questionmark on March 30, 2003, at 1:35:40
> Just to keep the information balanced... i've been using magnesium supplements for the past few weeks (mg glycinate and mg citrate, getting aproximately 100% RDA) and i haven't noticed anything.
> i don't know.Every body is different, so your lack of success with magnesium is not a surprise. I'm sorry, though, that it's not working in the way you'd like. I think we're all looking for a miracle cure--especially a non-drug cure.
However, the RDA are the absolute bare minimum requirements (I think my therapist told me they were quickly devised during wartime for the military? Do I have this right?)--and they are WELL BELOW what your body actually needs. You will find that even your doctors' recommendations for vitamins and minerals far exceed the dosage on the RDA list.
In order for vitamins and minerals to be effective (make a noticeable improvement), you have to take well beyond the minimum. I believe the recommended daily dose (for therapy) is between 800 and 1200mg.
How much are you taking?
beardy : )>
Posted by btnd on March 30, 2003, at 6:18:33
In reply to Lazy girl wants magnesium answers..., posted by kara lynne on March 30, 2003, at 0:36:03
For the past few days, I've been using magnesium carbonate 1500 mg. I'm using that much because the absorbtion of carbonate is less lower then glycinate/chelate.
http://coldcure.com/gif/magnesium.jpg
I'm feeling less depressed, slighly more motivation. I just hope it's not placebo :)
Posted by Larry Hoover on March 30, 2003, at 7:59:12
In reply to Re: Magnesium Aspartate? How harmful is it???? » Larry Hoover, posted by bluedog on March 30, 2003, at 4:33:36
> I thought I was doing the right thing with my magnesium supplements. The particular brand I take contains the following magnesium compounds in each tablet for a total of 73mg elemental magnesium per tablet:-
>
> Magnesium orotate 200mg
> (eqiuv. 13mg magnesium)
>
> Magnesium aspartate 200mg
> (equiv. 13.4mg magnesium)
>
> Magnesium amino acid chelate 150mg
> (equiv. 30mg magnesium)
>
> Magnesium phosphate 80mg
> (equiv. 16.5mg magnesium)
>
>
> Now having read George Eby's "Rapid Recovery From Severe, Stress-Induced Depression Using Magnesium" site I saw that he considers magnesium aspartate as toxic and now I am worried!!!!!
>
> I therefore have some questions for you Larry:-
>
> 1) Am I actually worsening my depression by taking this particular formulation?I wouldn't be overly concerned. You'll get nore aspartate from eating a meal with beef or chicken. Just take it with a meal, so the amino acid counter ion (the aspartate part) doesn't enter the blood all in one little flood. Also, take note that your 630 mg tablet contains only 73 mg magnesium. You would need to take a number of these particular tablets to meet the treatment guidelines of 400-800 mg magnesium per day. Rather than taking a number of these, you may want to take additional tablets of magnesium chloride (cheap and effective) to top up your magnesium intake for the day.
> 2) Should I discontinue taking these tablets because of the magnesium aspartate content (I just bought a new bottle of 100 tablets)?
Answered above.
> 3) What is magnesium amino acid chelate in the context of your explanation in this thread on what the various magnesium compounds mean?I could probably tell you exactly if I spent a few minutes with a calculator, but it's probably glycine.
> Thanks Larry
>
> warm regards
> bluedogYou're welcome. Hope you're well.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on March 30, 2003, at 8:04:59
In reply to Lazy girl wants magnesium answers..., posted by kara lynne on March 30, 2003, at 0:36:03
> I promise to go and read the above threads--just as soon as I have more energy from the magnesium I am going to start taking. In the meantime can someone just post a guideline or is it too complicated? Glycinate is good, or malate if I have fibro symptoms (which I do)? If I were to walk in a health food store tomorrow, with a very sensitive digestive system, what would someone recommend I start at? I know I'm being lazy, but maybe someone will indulge me--if I promise to read more later!
Magnesium chloride will probably give you the most "bang for the buck", but if you have fibro, I'd lean towards the malate. If you have trouble finding the latter in a store, I can tell you where you can get some on the net at a good price.
You want to get at least 400 mg per day of magnesium, working up to closer to 2000 mg/day for fibro sufferers. To avoid stomach upset and diarrhea, you need to spread the intake out over the day, as the concentration in the gut at any moment in time determines whether you'll get diarrhea or not.
Some people tend to get drowsy with magnesium, so if you do, schedule yuour doses to get more in the evening.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on March 30, 2003, at 8:22:38
In reply to Re: Miraculous results with magnesium! » Larry Hoover, posted by johnj on March 29, 2003, at 23:09:59
> Hi Larry,
>
> Great to see your post. I have had an almost perfect week and I haven't had one full good week in a long time. I have upped my Mg to 400 mg, but I tried taking some at noon and became very sleepy. I cannot explain why or how this has worked for me. Stunned, is probably the best word. I seem to sleep much sounder, not longer. I have worked out some, which use to cause a major system failure for me as I have mentioned. Would you have any idea how Mg is countering this effect? I just wonder if I was depledted and working out just sucked more Mg? I have been taking Mg citrate, but wonder if malate would be better?I am really glad to hear about the improvement in sleep quality. Most doctors do not give nearly enough attention to this aspect of care. They'll ask you about hours of sleep, but ignore the issue of restorative (or not) sleep.
If you're magnesium deficient, your body will not handle physiological stress very well. You will not bounce back readily.
Even if you do not have fibro, the malate may indeed offer benefits with respect to exercise stress. It can't hurt you, that's for sure.
> I am not thinking of giving up any meds. I feel the depression/anxiety took a while to show itself so if I am "healing" I will let the Mg do it's work over a period of time and after talking with my doc. If he doesn't believe the Mg could be helping I will find a new doc. I am by no means "cured" just have finally taken one step forward without two backwards.
I just want to give you acknowledgment for the intellectual effort you have exerted in trying different strategies. It's by no means a simple process, and you have earned the results you are experiencing. Way to go!
>I have added the vitamin E for the Peyronie's disease and haven't had any adverse reaction which is also good.
Good. Now add some alpha lipoic acid. Walmart carries it at a good price.
> One other thing I have noticed is that before I took the Mg I would often wake up and stew about things and magnify problems at work. I would play things over and over. This has seemed to drop off significantly too. If I stew it is about good things like wanting to build a house and how I would do it. I find this very interesting. The past week I kept waiting for the next morning when I would wake up feeling bad....and it didn't come. I realize that I EXPECTED to feel abnormal instead of just waking up and going about my business.You've been used to feeling that crappy way. This new good feeling comes as a surprise, non? Even good change can feel weird.
Ruminating (the negative kind) can very well be related to sleep quality. If you had had your brain waves recorded, you'd probably find that your brain did not enter into sleep appropriately, retaining activity in parts of the brain which ought to have gone silent. What you've described here, the decrease in rumination, is directly related to your sense that sleep is more restorative. Magnesium is involved in the formation of melatonin, so you may simply have restored your ability to produce melatonin efficiently in the pineal gland.
> I have more energy too. The first couple of mornings I was dragging, but that has now normalized. By Wednesday of last week I actually was motivated at work. I have been getting by since I work for the government, but now I don't mind going to work. It just seems so SIMPLE, it almost seems unreal. I even think clearer and better. Now, I feel able to handle some of my physical problems too.I'd lean towards restorative sleep as the answer here. I'm really glad to hear this is happening to you.
> I have always meant to ask you about taking asprin and if you think it has any benefits over the long term taking the baby dose every day. Biology was such a long time ago and I remember something about aspring inhibiting prostaglandins(sp?). I can't remember what prostaglandins even do anymore.Prostaglandins are ring structures formed by the enzyme COX (cyclo-oxygenase) out of long chain polyunsaturated fatty acids. Depending on which fatty acid gets formed into a loop, different bits are left sticking out. It's the different bits that determine what your body does when exposed to a prostaglandin (they're signalling compounds, kind of like neurotransmitters). Bad prostaglandins are formed from omega-6 fatty acids, and we all get too much omega-6. Taking a 37.5 mg aspirin tablet has been shown to clearly reduce the risk of heart disease and of colon cancer. It probably helps protect the prostate, too. So, yes, a baby aspirin every day is a good thing.
> Larry, be careful out there driving.2 million miles, without a collision or even a ticket.
>Thanks a million for all your help.
You're welcome.
>Ever think about writing a book based on the questions and your input? Who better qualified to help us all, one trained in the field and who has personal experience. I sometimes feel docs have no clue.
I've thought about it, but I'd probably need an editor to keep me focussed.
>Take care
>
> johnjYou too, John. Good luck.
Lar
Posted by noa on March 30, 2003, at 9:20:30
In reply to Re: JLx, Larry Hoover, SLS -- Magnesium, posted by bozeman on March 29, 2003, at 17:18:27
I am going to ask my pdoc about magnesium when I see him next week. He already has me on Chromium picolinate and folic acid (above and beyond what is in my daily multi vitamin/mineral), and though I initiated the fish oil, he agreed with the decision and then recommended I double or triple my fish oil doses since it seemed to be helping. Ie, my pdoc is pro-supplements and keeps up with the literature on it, even though some of the literature is based on very small studies or anecdotal reports (but who cares!).
I started seeing this pdoc last summer. He has a lot of difficulty keep time well,and appointments are almost always late. He is quirky, but he really knows his stuff, and he is collaborative. And I like that he keeps up on lit and suggests some alternative additions to meds, like chromium and the folic acid, etc.
We are working now on seeing if, after a period of time on the increased fish oil, whether I can lower my effexor dose a bit, and later on, possibly lower my serzone dose a bit, too, to reduce some of the negative effects. I don't think either of us envision complete cessation of my meds, however.
So, I'll ask him about the magnesium, too.
Thanks. for the info. I'll try to print out some of the resources to bring to him (although he has usually read a lot on this stuff and sometimes gives me print-outs).
Posted by noa on March 30, 2003, at 9:30:25
In reply to Re: Miraculous results with magnesium!, posted by Larry Hoover on March 30, 2003, at 8:22:38
BTW, here is a link to the USDA nutrient list site. This is for magnesium--foods listed by magnesium content, fwiw. I was just curious, and I thought I'd pass it on to you. You need Adobe Acrobat to read it.
http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/Data/SR15/wtrank/sr15w304.pdf
The nutrient list is at:
http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/Data/SR15/wtrank/wt_rank.htmlTo see food nutrient contents by food, search at:
Posted by Larry Hoover on March 30, 2003, at 9:42:05
In reply to Re: Magnesium content in food, fyi, posted by noa on March 30, 2003, at 9:30:25
> BTW, here is a link to the USDA nutrient list site. This is for magnesium--foods listed by magnesium content, fwiw. I was just curious, and I thought I'd pass it on to you. You need Adobe Acrobat to read it.
>
> http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/Data/SR15/wtrank/sr15w304.pdf
>
> The nutrient list is at:
> http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/Data/SR15/wtrank/wt_rank.html
>
> To see food nutrient contents by food, search at:
>
> http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/cgi-bin/nut_search.plJust to provide an alternative method of searching the same database, this link does not require Adobe Acrobat. It doesn't give rankings, but it lets you search by food type within particular nutrient categories.
Posted by beardedlady on March 30, 2003, at 10:11:14
In reply to Re: Magnesium content in food, fyi, posted by Larry Hoover on March 30, 2003, at 9:42:05
Does everyone have to take some probiotics (like live yogurt cultures) while taking magnesium? Eby's site says it's a must.
On a personal note, I like that you can make everything you do (like truck driving) an art. I respect you for putting your all into your work, your posts, your driving. And I've never heard you whine about the hand you've been dealt. You're a true role model.
beardy : )>
Posted by bluedog on March 30, 2003, at 10:21:10
In reply to Re: Magnesium Aspartate? How harmful is it???? » bluedog, posted by Larry Hoover on March 30, 2003, at 7:59:12
> > I thought I was doing the right thing with my magnesium supplements. The particular brand I take contains the following magnesium compounds in each tablet for a total of 73mg elemental magnesium per tablet:-
> >
> > Magnesium orotate 200mg
> > (eqiuv. 13mg magnesium)
> >
> > Magnesium aspartate 200mg
> > (equiv. 13.4mg magnesium)
> >
> > Magnesium amino acid chelate 150mg
> > (equiv. 30mg magnesium)
> >
> > Magnesium phosphate 80mg
> > (equiv. 16.5mg magnesium)
> >
> you may want to take additional tablets of magnesium chloride (cheap and effective) to top up your magnesium intake for the day.
>
> > 2) Should I discontinue taking these tablets because of the magnesium aspartate content (I just bought a new bottle of 100 tablets)?
>
> Answered above.
>
> > 3) What is magnesium amino acid chelate in the context of your explanation in this thread on what the various magnesium compounds mean?
>
> I could probably tell you exactly if I spent a few minutes with a calculator, but it's probably glycine.
>
> > Thanks Larry
> >
> > warm regards
> > bluedog
>
> You're welcome. Hope you're well.
>
> Lar
LarryThankyou for your response to my last questions
Could I trouble you with a couple more questions.
1) When you answered that the magnesium amino acid chelate in the product I take is probably glycine does this mean that it's actually magnesium glycinate and therefore a beneficial form of magnesium?
2) Regarding your advice to top up my magnesium with another form, I can actually get the following tablets very cheaply at my local health food store http://www.optimumhealth.com.au/productpages/product8505.html
I'm just wondering if you took out your calculator whether you would consider this product to be a safe or beneficial form of magnesium?2) I forgot to ask you in my original questions what magnesium orotate is and whether this is also a beneficial or safe form (ie non toxic) form of magnesium?
3) I read somewhere that magnesium orotate is actually the best absorbed form of magnesium. Is this true?
Thanks for your patience once again Larry
regards
bluedog
Posted by Larry Hoover on March 30, 2003, at 10:35:03
In reply to what about probiotics? » Larry Hoover, posted by beardedlady on March 30, 2003, at 10:11:14
> Does everyone have to take some probiotics (like live yogurt cultures) while taking magnesium? Eby's site says it's a must.
If you haven't had a broad-spectrum antibiotic recently, and your digestion seems uncomplicated (no bloating, gas, cramps, diarrhea), then the utility of probiotics may be slight. They're safe. They may help. But I'm not convinced they're essential. That's my opinion. I use them occasionally. It's possible they've helped with my IBS, but I'm not sure.
> On a personal note, I like that you can make everything you do (like truck driving) an art. I respect you for putting your all into your work, your posts, your driving. And I've never heard you whine about the hand you've been dealt. You're a true role model.
>
> beardy : )>That was a very sweet thing to say. I'm very touched. Thank you.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on March 30, 2003, at 10:46:57
In reply to Hope you don't mind...some more Mg questions:) :) » Larry Hoover, posted by bluedog on March 30, 2003, at 10:21:10
> Larry
>
> Thankyou for your response to my last questions
>
> Could I trouble you with a couple more questions.No trouble. :-)
> 1) When you answered that the magnesium amino acid chelate in the product I take is probably glycine does this mean that it's actually magnesium glycinate and therefore a beneficial form of magnesium?
It's just a guess. I hope you don't get too hung up on the issue. Pure glycine is more expensive to produce than is an amino acid blend (from hydrolyzed protein). Chelated magnesium dissolves readily in the stomach, so that's why it's useful. Apart from that, the chelating substance (an ionic form of any amino acid) may also have some psychotropic effect, but the total dose is low, relatively speaking. I'm not convinced that a little aspartic acid or glutamic acid is going to have a significant effect, but it might in a particular individual. If you're sensitive to e.g. aspartame in diet drinks, you'd probably already know that, and it would be wise to avoid any substance with a similar chemistry.
> 2) Regarding your advice to top up my magnesium with another form, I can actually get the following tablets very cheaply at my local health food store http://www.optimumhealth.com.au/productpages/product8505.html
> I'm just wondering if you took out your calculator whether you would consider this product to be a safe or beneficial form of magnesium?It seems like you're concerned about potentially taking something that might interfere with the benefits of magnesium, so that's why I suggested the chloride salt. Taking something which just says it's a chelate is a crap shoot in some respects. There is no way I can tell you what's really in these tablets, if it doesn't say on the label.
> 2) I forgot to ask you in my original questions what magnesium orotate is and whether this is also a beneficial or safe form (ie non toxic) form of magnesium?Orotic acid is safe, and the salt is quite soluble, so it's a good source of magnesium in that respect. However, I doubt the additional expense is worth it, all things considered, when magnesium chloride is available.
> 3) I read somewhere that magnesium orotate is actually the best absorbed form of magnesium. Is this true?By a couple of percentage points, according to some sources. Again, any advantage is trivial.
> Thanks for your patience once again Larry
>
> regards
> bluedog
>No problem. If I may close with a summary statement: Taking a magnesium supplement, any supplement, is better than not taking one at all.
Lar
Posted by kara lynne on March 30, 2003, at 12:05:45
In reply to Answers for the lazy girl--??s for all » kara lynne, posted by beardedlady on March 30, 2003, at 6:05:44
Thanks beardy!
That's good info, and I have already begun probiotics---just last week. Off to the health food store...
Posted by kara lynne on March 30, 2003, at 12:11:32
In reply to Re: Lazy girl wants magnesium answers... » kara lynne, posted by Larry Hoover on March 30, 2003, at 8:04:59
I will look for the malate, but I might ask you for the link anyway. (Hopefully magnesium malate doesn't cause more stomach upset than any other form.) Thanks for simplifying things for me--I really appreciate it.
Posted by johnj on March 30, 2003, at 15:10:07
In reply to Re: Miraculous results with magnesium!, posted by Larry Hoover on March 30, 2003, at 8:22:38
Thanks for the wonderful response as always Larry.
My sister gave up her career a few years back to be a stay at home mom and has spent the last several years writing her first mystery novel. At the same time she does editing. She went over my grad school thesis and my Prof was extremely impressed at how well I write, I guess I said how well she writes! She has a masters in microbiology and an undergraduate degree in chemistry. Her husband is a university prof. So, after she sees how well I am doing and why, if things ever get off the ground, even a little at a time let me know. :)
johnj
Posted by Dr. Bob on March 30, 2003, at 17:06:28
In reply to Miraculous results with magnesium!, posted by JLx on March 29, 2003, at 5:49:41
> I've also been reading "Depression Free Naturally" by Joan Mathews Larson, "Your Miracle Brain" by Jean Carper, "The Cortisol Connection" by Shawn Talbott, and "The Omega-3 Connection" by Andrew Stoll.
I'd just like to plug the double double quotes feature at this site:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#amazon
The first time anyone refers to a book without using this option, I post this to try to make sure he or she at least knows about it. It's just an option, though, and doesn't *have* to be used. If people *choose* not to use it, I'd be interested why not, but I'd like that redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20020918/msgs/7717.html
Thanks!
Bob
Posted by JLx on March 31, 2003, at 8:15:21
In reply to Re: Miraculous results with magnesium!, posted by Larry Hoover on March 29, 2003, at 10:55:32
> [Larry Hoover] The second term in the name of a magnesium salt, for example, is called the counter ion. ... In the case of magnesium chloride, the chloride has no physiological effect, as chloride is one of the most common ions in the body already. What makes it so effective is its high solubility.I am wondering if there is some specific advantage to taking magnesium glycinate for stress as opposed to all the other types -- since glycine is itself a relaxant. Does this make sense?
I've been taking glycine before bed per "Depression Free Naturally" by Joan Mathews Larson, along with 3 mg. melatonin and 50 mg 5-HTP. I would take tryptophan instead, as Larson recommends that over 5-HTP, but I already had the 5-HTP onhand. I tried melatonin without the 5-HTP and felt the gray cloud creeping back the next day. This was one of the times I wish I had read George Eby's site http://www.coldcure.com/html/dep.html beforehand as he cautions against that.
> Supplements are cheap, generally safe, and in my control. I like those characteristics.
I think they're expensive, but not compared to what I've been paying for useless doctors and drugs! Mental health and a sense of well being? Priceless. :)
> Let him come to ask just what has contributed so much for your well-being. I bet he remains a skeptic, nonetheless.I'm just going to write him a letter. I'm certainly not paying $80 for a half hour of his time just to tell him I'm ok now, no thanks to you. ;)
Posted by JLx on March 31, 2003, at 9:08:51
In reply to Re: JLx, Larry Hoover, SLS -- Magnesium, posted by bozeman on March 29, 2003, at 17:18:27
> (bozeman comment 7)
> Kramer's book was a real eye-opener for me. It makes me sad that so many people jump to conclusions about what he was trying to say without actually reading the book. After reading it, and re-reading several sections, I took his point to be that though their improvements on Prozac were quite remarkable, the effect it had on his patients actually made him quite uneasy, as for the first time it opened the door to the possibility of debate/miscategorization/misuse/pressure of whether personality could be biologically determined, and therefore phamacologically altered, at will. He thought this could create enough confusion to eventually take away (or at least muddy the water) over an individual's right to be who they were, without feeling pressured to conform to a "socially preferable but induced by medication" personality. Not that such a personality was desirable or should be pursued, but that for the first time, it appeared to be possible to create it biochemically. And, his book was published before any long-term information existed on SSRI's, the term "poop-out" had not yet been coined nor the phenomenon really observed, and at that time, there appeared to be no "contraindication" to long-term SSRI use. That possibility deeply disturbed him, as it made "cosmetic psychopharmacology" potentially feasible, which was an idea that distressed him on medical, social, and spiritual levels. Long-term (and inadvertent) adaptive changes in neurotransmitter levels, and the poop-out phenomenon, have hopefully made his fears moot.Excellent summary. :)
> LOL . . . indeed, I agree with Larry. It never ceases to amaze me the ability of people (all of us, not just doctors or patients) to flatly ignore evidence in front of us that we just don't want to hear. Good luck, JLx, and I'm glad you're feeling so good. Don't let your doctor's lack of enthusiasm keep you from utilizing a relatively cheap, safe, effective therapy that's working so well for you. :-)
Ha! Don't worry. If I never see a psychiatrist again, it will be too soon. ;)
What ticks me off about them is that they get the big bucks for being scientists knowledegeable about the human body (as opposed to the mere psychologists). So why are we, their patients, the ones having to find our OWN WAY to these remedies that are about the human body, i.e. the brain....and mood?
Posted by Larry Hoover on March 31, 2003, at 9:13:31
In reply to Re: Miraculous results with magnesium!, posted by JLx on March 31, 2003, at 8:15:21
>
> > [Larry Hoover] The second term in the name of a magnesium salt, for example, is called the counter ion. ... In the case of magnesium chloride, the chloride has no physiological effect, as chloride is one of the most common ions in the body already. What makes it so effective is its high solubility.
>
> I am wondering if there is some specific advantage to taking magnesium glycinate for stress as opposed to all the other types -- since glycine is itself a relaxant. Does this make sense?Yes, that's exactly right. By taking a supplement that has two active ingredients, you get dual effects.
> I've been taking glycine before bed per "Depression Free Naturally" by Joan Mathews Larson, along with 3 mg. melatonin and 50 mg 5-HTP. I would take tryptophan instead, as Larson recommends that over 5-HTP, but I already had the 5-HTP onhand. I tried melatonin without the 5-HTP and felt the gray cloud creeping back the next day. This was one of the times I wish I had read George Eby's site http://www.coldcure.com/html/dep.html beforehand as he cautions against that.
Hmmm.... I've never personally combined melatonin and 5-HTP. Might be worth a try, down the road.
> > Supplements are cheap, generally safe, and in my control. I like those characteristics.
>
> I think they're expensive, but not compared to what I've been paying for useless doctors and drugs!Yes, that's the comparison I intended. Compared to prescription meds, they're cheap. I spend about $1500/yr. on supplements, some of which are unsuccessful trials. Others work, and I hope to refine my supplement program to the extent that I no longer waste any money.
>Mental health and a sense of well being? Priceless. :)
Sounds like the commercial, eh?
> > Let him come to ask just what has contributed so much for your well-being. I bet he remains a skeptic, nonetheless.
>
> I'm just going to write him a letter. I'm certainly not paying $80 for a half hour of his time just to tell him I'm ok now, no thanks to you. ;)Ya, I wouldn't bring it up in person unless you had some other compelling reason to be there, anyway. Keep us informed about how you're doing, 'kay?
Lar
Posted by beardedlady on March 31, 2003, at 9:18:45
In reply to Re: what about probiotics?, posted by Larry Hoover on March 30, 2003, at 10:35:03
Lar:
I'm heading to the health food store later and want to know, besides my 200mg. tabs of magnesium glycinate, what kind of probiotic to look for and how to take it.
Thank you, oh surpremely smart guru one.
beardy : )>
Posted by beardedlady on March 31, 2003, at 9:21:01
In reply to Re: what about probiotics?, posted by Larry Hoover on March 30, 2003, at 10:35:03
I would like to support you in some way now that you have helped me so much. It doesn't look like you need my services as an English professor, as your grammar and punctuation are above par.
If you need to know anything about child rearing, poetry writing, mosaic making, or house painting, just ask away.
beardy : )>
Posted by JLx on March 31, 2003, at 9:22:18
In reply to Re: Miraculous results with magnesium! » Larry Hoover, posted by johnj on March 29, 2003, at 23:09:59
> I have upped my Mg to 400 mg, but I tried taking some at noon and became very sleepy. I cannot explain why or how this has worked for me. Stunned, is probably the best word. I seem to sleep much sounder, not longer.
This wasn't addressed to me, but I hope it's ok that I comment. Are you taking boron? See George Eby's magnesium site for discussion of boron: http://www.coldcure.com/html/dep.html#boron Perhaps it would counteract the sleepiness? (I take both.)
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