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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 23 of 23. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Joshua AK on October 30, 2002, at 23:13:32
I realize there are some posts regarding this subject from earlier in the year, but I have decdied to start this new thread anyway in an attempt to obtain some answers that might be a little more clear or direct.
I have been taking Wellbutrin SR (at the max dosage– 450 mg/day) for 8 months. Although my mental health has greatly improved, I believe it has much more to do with the 5 months of intense psycho-therapy and the 10 day meditation retreat I went on, than it does the meds. Granted, before I started taking it I wallowed in 3 years of total illusionment and unacknowledged depression...
Anyhow, to give a little (illicit) drug background: Been a pot smoker for the past 5 years, although that includes numerous breaks of considerable time (multiple months, 3 or 4, etc.)– Didn't smoke for the first month and a half of being on medication, and even then did not actually smoke anything close to what might be considered a substantial amount until the summer, June. Since then I have smoked quite regularly, although now that school has started I don't smoke at all during the week and have generally scaled back a great deal. Whatever the case, I have not noticed any interactions with the wellbutrin.
Moving on... I do not drink aside from a (one, never more) glass of wine or beer, very occationally. Haven't consumed psilocybin in many years and will most likely never again; which is not to say I had a bad trip, just that it felt pointless. Have taken e a couple dozen times, probably not that many, and probably NEVER AGAIN. Never put anything up my nose or anything like that– didn't mess with drugs like K, or any amphetamines for that matter. (I do take adderall, but only on an as needed basis, which equates to maybe once a week, sometimes twice. Since I began taking it there has been zero increase in frequency of ingestion... I don't consider myself to be someone who has addictive tendencies).
I have not taken any real drugs for approx. 11 months (birthday e-spree... not proud of it, no more of that shit for me!). For what turned out to be almost exactly 1 year on the dot I did some experimenting with LSD. Dropped somewhere between 12 and 16 times. Never had a "bad trip," and learned something every time (as with every drug I've ever taken). I have not taken acid in 15+ months.
So, what am I getting at? Does anybody have some sort of concrete information on what chemical interactions (if any) there are between bupropion and LSD? I'd like to avoid getting trip-report responses, am much more interested in the medical side of the interation and what susceptibilities I could subject myself to. The psychological effects of LSD I think I can handle (not that I think I have "conquered" the drug or anything– don't want to give the wrong impression– I am very aware of the inherent nature of unpredicability associated with acid) and want to make sure I would not physically be endangering myself by partaking.
I've been blabbering for a while and have lost whatever my train of thought was... whatever the case, I think I've asked my question. Any help would be much appreciated... thank you all
-Josh
Posted by Ç(r)ëëþý Tabitha on October 31, 2002, at 0:59:20
In reply to Wellbutrin and LSD, posted by Joshua AK on October 30, 2002, at 23:13:32
Hi,
I admire your effort to get safety information before mixing meds with LSD, but I really doubt if the concrete information that you want is out there anywhere. It's not like drug companies are going to fund studies on the interaction of meds with street drugs. Doctors and researchers don't even understand the action of the meds on your brain, so I doubt they can predict the action of Wellbutrin+LSD without actually doing studies.
I'm now resisting the strong urge to try to talk you out of doing it. You must really really want to, or you wouldn't risk disrupting your hard-won balance.
Posted by Joshua AK on October 31, 2002, at 2:07:27
In reply to Re: Wellbutrin and LSD, posted by Ç(r)ëëþý Tabitha on October 31, 2002, at 0:59:20
Yeah, you are very correct tabitha... I sometimes forget that it doesn't take an understanding of what a drug does to a person's body for the FDA to pass it. I mean, I've read a couple articles about how Wellbutrin increases the dopamine and norepinephrine levels in the brain. Of course, not a single one explicitly defined either chemical or its function... but maybe if someone out there knows what chemicals LSD releases in the brain.. I dunno, you're definately right about not finding an answer. I don't want you to think that I'm sitting at home with my acid in my drawer just waiting to drop it... nothing like that at all... I don't have any plans or intentions to get spun in the near future, so no need to talk me out of it! (thanks for the concern though : ) anyways... thanks again
josh
Posted by ~Alii~ on October 31, 2002, at 7:05:02
In reply to Re: Wellbutrin and LSD, posted by Joshua AK on October 31, 2002, at 2:07:27
not the drawer!
Said with great jest Josh. You wrote out a very good question but one I have nothing intelligent to offer back to other than the folks I knew with long term acid storage always said they kept it tightly wrapped/sealed in the freezer. Who knows?!
~~Alii
Glad to hear you're not planning on any spinning in the near future. Best wishes for a more constant good mood for you.
Posted by Roman on October 31, 2002, at 11:53:45
In reply to Wellbutrin and LSD, posted by Joshua AK on October 30, 2002, at 23:13:32
Here's a link to some info and articles on the subject. I personally think it's a risky proposition and would never try it.
Posted by BrittPark on October 31, 2002, at 12:59:33
In reply to Wellbutrin and LSD, posted by Joshua AK on October 30, 2002, at 23:13:32
I don't know anything specific about the interaction of LSD and Wellbutrin. LSD binds strongly to certain serotonin receptors. The serotinergic system is implicated in depression. I'd use great caution taking LSD while on other psychoactive medications. In fact I wouldn't recommend it.
If, however, you decide to dose, take some precautions. Dose with a group of friends, and see if you can get one of those friends to not dose to act as safety coordinator for the others. Have some valium, xanax or other strong anxiolytic in case somebody starts to have a bad trip.
Disclosure: I think LSD is the second most dangerous street drug, PCP being number one. When I was 19 I had a bad trip that triggered 20 years of chronic depression and panic disorder.
Be careful,
Britt
Posted by Eddie Sylvano on October 31, 2002, at 15:06:58
In reply to Re: Wellbutrin and LSD » Joshua AK, posted by BrittPark on October 31, 2002, at 12:59:33
> Disclosure: I think LSD is the second most dangerous street drug, PCP being number one. When I was 19 I had a bad trip that triggered 20 years of chronic depression and panic disorder.
------------------------------Physiologically, LSD is actually a relatively harmless drug. I've not read any reports of deaths due to LSD use alone. Alcohol and cigarettes are probably more destructive to your *body* than LSD. As for whatever mental trauma it may cause, well... that's pretty much dependant on the user. LSD doesn't induce any new ideas or feelings in a person, it just amplifies your senses and distorts your interpretations of them. If you're prone to unpleasnat thoughts, it's probably a drug to steer clear of, but I don't think that it's inherently damaging.
Posted by Ç(r)ëëþý Tabitha on October 31, 2002, at 22:41:59
In reply to Re: Wellbutrin and LSD » BrittPark, posted by Eddie Sylvano on October 31, 2002, at 15:06:58
If someone started an education campaign to tell school kids that LSD would trigger 20 years of chronic mental illness, I would scoff, but if one person reports that it happened to them personally, I'm inclined to believe they could be correct in attributing their changed brain to the LSD trip.
While LSD may not cause immediate organ damage, and I know the fatal overdose amount is like a million doses or something, it still jolts your brain into a heckuva non-normal state. In susceptible individuals it can trigger psychosis (I think this much is accepted medical fact).
Here's my not completely scientific opinion... Anytime your brain is jolted, it's changed. For instance, one traumatic event can start PTSD that lingers forever; or a brief ECT jolt can cause huge and long lasting changes. LSD stays in your brain's blood supply only a few minutes, but the trip lasts 8 hours, and nobody really understands how. We just don't understand the brain enough to know the full effects of these extreme chemical changes.
Personally I suspect this is how ADs work. They jolt your brain into some chemical change, although more slowly than ECT or acid, and it somehow breaks up the grip of the depression. It almost doesn't matter what kind of jolt. I read that serotonin reuptake *enhancers* have also been shown to have antidepressant effect, though serotonin reuptake inhibitors are the preferred treatment these days.
So as much as I might enjoy the effect a hallucinogen has on my brain, I know that as a mood-disordered pill-popping person, it's not wise to jolt my brain into any wacky serotonin state, especially when I've reached some stability. If anything, I'd want to jolt my brain when I was horribly depressed, and there's nowhere to go but up.
Posted by Joshua AK on November 1, 2002, at 3:52:07
In reply to Re: LSD and brain jolts, posted by Ç(r)ëëþý Tabitha on October 31, 2002, at 22:41:59
Can't agree with you more- serotonin wake-wandering is pretty fuct. But I don't really associate (completely subjectively...) LSD with serotonin release or provokation, whatever it is. I mean, realistically I know my serotonin levels are fluctuating, but psychologically (I think that's what I mean.) there isn't any association with rolling your face off, bein' all gooey and goofy... Larium, (for malaria prevention– not for shits and giggles or anything) really distorts reality. That stuff is closer to and acid trip than, well, some of my dreams. I don't associate that feeling with any feeling I've experienced of seratonin-cracked-outedness.
to my question (sorry for all the babble up there): What exactly do you mean... what is a brain jolt? Also, an ETC jolt? Please elaborate, quite curious/interested... thanks for the response / opinion
peace
Posted by fachad on November 1, 2002, at 10:40:12
In reply to Re: LSD and brain jolts, posted by Ç(r)ëëþý Tabitha on October 31, 2002, at 22:41:59
>Anytime your brain is jolted, it's changed. For instance, one traumatic event can start PTSD that lingers forever; or a brief ECT jolt can cause huge and long lasting changes.
That ability to cause "huge and lasting changes" was touted as a major benefit by those who endorsed therapeutic use of psychedelics.
Timothy Leary propounded a theory that neurosis and mental suffering were patterns of mental behavior that were fixed early in life thru imprinting. He believed that LSD could be used to re-imprint the mind, with consciously chosen patters. This science, which he called "neurologic" would allow people to design and program their own nervous systems. Take a look at the essay "Seeds of the Sixties" in Leary's book Neuropolitics for his elaboration of this idea.
John Lilly, M.D. did an LSD research study funded by National Institutes of Health (NIH) and published the results in the book "Programming and Metaprogramming in the Human Biocomputer". His thesis was also that LSD was a powerful tool for re-structuring the nervous system thru "metaprogramming", or re-engineering basic functions that were not changeable in ordinary states.
Another researcher, W.V. Caldwell, detailed an entire therapeutic system based on use of psychedelics. It is described in his book LSD Psychotherapy.
I personally think the LSD phenomena is partially responsible for the current paradigm where medication is the preferred method of effecting brain change in patients. Today’s medications are (mostly) devoid of recreational potential, but the basic idea that you can use chemicals to deliberately alter a persons subjective experience in a more positive direction was really brought home to many on an instinctive level by the psychedelic movement.
> If someone started an education campaign to tell school kids that LSD would trigger 20 years of chronic mental illness, I would scoff, but if one person reports that it happened to them personally, I'm inclined to believe they could be correct in attributing their changed brain to the LSD trip.
>
> While LSD may not cause immediate organ damage, and I know the fatal overdose amount is like a million doses or something, it still jolts your brain into a heckuva non-normal state. In susceptible individuals it can trigger psychosis (I think this much is accepted medical fact).
>
> Here's my not completely scientific opinion... Anytime your brain is jolted, it's changed. For instance, one traumatic event can start PTSD that lingers forever; or a brief ECT jolt can cause huge and long lasting changes. LSD stays in your brain's blood supply only a few minutes, but the trip lasts 8 hours, and nobody really understands how. We just don't understand the brain enough to know the full effects of these extreme chemical changes.
>
> Personally I suspect this is how ADs work. They jolt your brain into some chemical change, although more slowly than ECT or acid, and it somehow breaks up the grip of the depression. It almost doesn't matter what kind of jolt. I read that serotonin reuptake *enhancers* have also been shown to have antidepressant effect, though serotonin reuptake inhibitors are the preferred treatment these days.
>
> So as much as I might enjoy the effect a hallucinogen has on my brain, I know that as a mood-disordered pill-popping person, it's not wise to jolt my brain into any wacky serotonin state, especially when I've reached some stability. If anything, I'd want to jolt my brain when I was horribly depressed, and there's nowhere to go but up.
>
>
>
Posted by Ç(r)ëëþý Tabitha on November 1, 2002, at 13:12:38
In reply to Re: LSD and brain jolts, posted by Joshua AK on November 1, 2002, at 3:52:07
Ooops, I meant ECT not ETC.
Brain jolt is a term I made up for something that suddenly & radically changes the chemistry of your brain.
Posted by Robin David John on November 3, 2002, at 8:31:19
In reply to LSD and brain jolts, Imprinting, Metaprogramming, posted by fachad on November 1, 2002, at 10:40:12
I find this theory very interesting ..this summer when camping by myself on an island and a hellacious thunder storm came up unexpectingly. I was running around to get things for cover lightning bolts were everywhere..When I finished getting things away undercover a sat in an extension of my tent my wet shoes touching open ground..and WHAM a bolt came down close to my tent and straightened me out in a chair I was sitting in. The jolt that went through me body was enormous..I coward in the tent the rest of the night , I really thought it was my last moments alive , I cried in fear.
Needless to say I was in a dangerous state of depression a week later, death was the easy way out. I went to my doctor and he put me on effexor because I told him that I was depressed and couldn't control my depression with meditation , reading ,going for walks was useless . Effexor didn't work for me either
Two weeks later I was in the hospital because I was so out of it and the danger to myself was 10 fold. the Doc in the hospital put me on remeron and kept me for 6 day to get me stable.
Today I am really wondering about your thread and just how much the impact of that lightning bolt had had on me ...You see I have never ever really had a problem with a severe depression ..
Thanks for posting this thread .I think it really has given me some positive insight as to what probably happened to me.Robin
Posted by meow mary on November 3, 2002, at 12:47:09
In reply to Re: LSD and brain jolts, Imprinting, Metaprogramming » fachad, posted by Robin David John on November 3, 2002, at 8:31:19
You may want to read a book called
"A Match To The Heart" by Gretel Ehrlich (One Woman's Story Of Being Struck By Lightening.) It's very good. Good luck. (Bob, I don't exactly know what the double quote thing is, so sorry if I didn't do it correctly.)
Posted by meow mary on November 3, 2002, at 14:35:18
In reply to To Robin..., posted by meow mary on November 3, 2002, at 12:47:09
"A Match To The Heart" by Gretel Erhlich.
Posted by Dr. Bob on November 3, 2002, at 15:05:22
In reply to I'll try it this way..., posted by meow mary on November 3, 2002, at 14:35:18
Posted by IsoM on November 4, 2002, at 1:38:56
In reply to Re: LSD and brain jolts, Imprinting, Metaprogramming » fachad, posted by Robin David John on November 3, 2002, at 8:31:19
Robin, I don't know if you've previously mentioned in another thread that you were struck by lightning, but what you're describing is very common in people who've survived lightning strikes. It can alter more than just the way of a person's mind works too. I knew a guy that had gone grey prematurely & was almost bald. After he was hit by lightning, his hair grew back dark. It's what started my interest in what lightning can do. I also read that one man was struck by lightning & went blind. Ten years later, he was hit again & over a period of a couple of weeks, his eyesight returned. The stories can be so incredible that they sound like urban legends.
Here's a link to a site from one lightning survivor & her experiences. There's a myriad of links too - similar stories, a forum to share experiences, many more & even the link for the lightning strike ring of other similar sites:
http://www3.bc.sympatico.ca/lightningsurvivor/index.html
Posted by BarbaraCat on November 7, 2002, at 1:21:43
In reply to Lightning Survivors and Depression » Robin David John, posted by IsoM on November 4, 2002, at 1:38:56
Very interesting. When I was 20 I was driving in a very bad electrical storm and pulled over. I couldn't see out the windows the rain was coming down so hard, otherwise I would not have stopped right by a telephone pole. I next saw a flash, heard a very weird hollow whanga-whanga sound and felt my body zapped. When I eventually got out of the car the tires were smoking, one was flat, and the metal was hot. The pole and the power lines next to me were smoking. I think my car was hit by lightning but the fact that it was grounded saved me. It thoroughly shook me and the shock strung me out and depleated me for a short time afterward. I never associated the onset of my depressions with this event, as I experienced unipolar depression since I was 10. However, in retracing events my bipolar symptoms started soon after this brush with atmospheric ECT. As though my circuits were scrambled. This periodic scrambled brain static has been the hallmark of this illness for me. I wonder if 'real' ECT would reset and align these neural circuits for me?
Posted by Robin David John on November 7, 2002, at 21:06:28
In reply to Lightning Survivors and Depression » Robin David John, posted by IsoM on November 4, 2002, at 1:38:56
Thank you for the lightening site ..I never thought about mentioning I had received a jolt until I read this thread...
Posted by Robin David John on November 7, 2002, at 21:11:47
In reply to Re: Lightning Survivors and Depression, posted by BarbaraCat on November 7, 2002, at 1:21:43
Thank you for posting ..the plot thickens
Posted by Brandymac26 on November 8, 2002, at 8:07:11
In reply to Re: Lightning Survivors and Depression » BarbaraCat, posted by Robin David John on November 7, 2002, at 21:11:47
> Thank you for posting ..the plot thickens
Hi everyone! After reading this thread, I also wonder if my depression,gad, and panic disorder could be related to something that happened to me. About 4 years ago, I was talking on the telephone, received about 3 or 4 very sharp jolts in my head. This happened to be pretty painful, but I thought it was just shocks I received from a short in the phone wire, and never went to any doc about it. After this happened to me, about 10 or 11 months I started having really bad panic attacks. Of course they freaked me out b/c I didnt know what they were. Given, I have always worried about really stupid things even as a child, but never had panic attacks, untill this happened. I have also been suffering from depression since this happened as well. I know this has nothing to do with lightning, but was wondering if maybe my problems could be related to the 3 or 4 very sharp jolts that I got right into my head? Any response would be appreciated. Also, I have had short term memory loss, but am not sure if it's related to the depression/anxiety, or the jolts I got. Thanks
Brandy
Posted by IsoM on November 8, 2002, at 12:30:32
In reply to Re: Lightning Survivors and Depression » Robin David John, posted by Brandymac26 on November 8, 2002, at 8:07:11
Yes, it's quite possible there's a correlation between the shocks you received & your problems. I can't provide a link right now (it was something I'd read in a science journal) but people who have survived strong electrical shocks other than lightning have also had similar stories. Even if yours wasn't as powerful as others were, the fact that it was directly at your head may be enough. You may wish to read over the some of the info in the link I'd provided for Robin.
Are you sure there was no lightning storm in the area? The charge can be transmitted from a lightning strike on the ground through the phone cables (most are underground now) to the person using a phone. This is why it's suggested to not use a phone unless absolutely necessary during storms. I've heard of a "ball of lightning" (best description for what it looked like) that rolled off a phone that was blasted from the wall due to a strike to someone's phone lines in their yard. It's also good to avoid using any plumbing, standing near open windows, & unplugging major (& expensive) appliances during lightning storms when they're nearby or severe.
Posted by Brandymac26 on November 8, 2002, at 16:45:47
In reply to Re: Lightning Survivors and Depression » Brandymac26, posted by IsoM on November 8, 2002, at 12:30:32
> Yes, it's quite possible there's a correlation between the shocks you received & your problems. I can't provide a link right now (it was something I'd read in a science journal) but people who have survived strong electrical shocks other than lightning have also had similar stories. Even if yours wasn't as powerful as others were, the fact that it was directly at your head may be enough. You may wish to read over the some of the info in the link I'd provided for Robin.
>
> Are you sure there was no lightning storm in the area? The charge can be transmitted from a lightning strike on the ground through the phone cables (most are underground now) to the person using a phone. This is why it's suggested to not use a phone unless absolutely necessary during storms. I've heard of a "ball of lightning" (best description for what it looked like) that rolled off a phone that was blasted from the wall due to a strike to someone's phone lines in their yard. It's also good to avoid using any plumbing, standing near open windows, & unplugging major (& expensive) appliances during lightning storms when they're nearby or severe.
>Actually, there wasnt any storm when this happened. Come to find out, there was some sort of short in the phone that I was using, and as a result, I was shocked about 4 times in my head. But, I will go to the link you provided. Thanks alot!
Brandy
Posted by Aaethiopicus on December 2, 2003, at 5:30:53
In reply to Wellbutrin and LSD, posted by Joshua AK on October 30, 2002, at 23:13:32
Josh,
FYI, I am a 19 year old freshman in college whose information comes largely from an 'intro to psych' class, so take my word for whatever its worth to you.
I, too, am perscribed Wellbutrin. Ever since a mind-blowing experience with LSD while having taken bupropion within maybe a day or so, I began asking the same questions as you and only now (after about a month or so of searching on and off) am I beginning to get an understanding for what had likely been at work.
Unlike MAOIs and SSRIs, the major effect of Wellbutrin is inhibiting norepinephrine reuptake and not serotonin reuptake. Norepinephrine is a neurotransmitter involved in "fight or flight" behavior and the speed to which one responds to stimuli.
Because I keep hearing that LSD is both a serotonin antagonist and a serotonin agonist, I have made the assumption that its effects cannot be explained by saying LSDs effects are due specifically to generally high or low levels. I am apprehensive about this though, because the definitions of antagonist and agonist in an online medical dictionary didn't completely enlighten me as to their meanings.
Regardless, as you can read about 11/12 down the page at:
http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/lsd/lsd_faq.shtml
(the quote is from Snyder, "Drugs and the Brain", 1986, Sci Am Books Inc.)A lot of LSD's effects can be described in terms of norepinephrine levels in the brain. If this is true, then I blame my uncommonly intense trip on still having Wellbutrin in me the day I dropped acid (2 weak tabs). Although, I don't think I actually took bupropion on that particular day.
So as for whether or not this is dangerous? I really can't say for sure. I see logic for either side. Among others, LSD's net effect is an increase in norepinephrine (as is the net effect of Wellbutrin). Because one can't OD on LSD I would be inclined to say this mix should be fine. But on the other hand, Wellbutrin's manufacturers claim that an overdose on their drug can cause increased blood pressure, seizures and even rarely heart attacks or cardiac arrest. Whether mixing the two is like overdosing on bupropion or if it is merely like taking a regular dose of bupropion with a harmless sugar pill is my question.
I hope this answers some of your questions, though. i am sorry I can't touch on the danger part.
I am planning on dropping acid again next month. I plan on staying off of the Wellbutrin for a few days leading up to the experience. I suggest, to be on the safe side, you do the same.
This is the end of the thread.
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