![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 17 to 41 of 41. Go back in thread:
Posted by Abby on August 15, 2002, at 11:46:43
In reply to Bipolar/Unipolar depression - differences?, posted by BarbaraCat on May 28, 2002, at 21:21:44
>
> BarbaraCat Unipolar: Dragging, heavy, sitting on the couch for hours too exhausted or disinterested to move, don't give a rip. No interest in anything, cynical, sarcastic, critical, sleep alot, feel like I'm moving though mud. Feel flat and grim, no joy, everything is a burden and a struggle. Hate life and myself, quiet despair. Body hurts and feels sick. Energy stagnant.
>
> BarbaraCat Bipolar: Desperate, frantic, doom and destruction, insomnia, nightmare quality to everything, frantic pacing, hysterical anguished sobbing, hypersensitive, hyper aware of 'existential pain', being sucked into the void, horrible hopelessness. Feel abandoned, cast out and lost in a hostile universe. Scary, black images of decay and desolation. Falling apart, nerves and brain feel inflamed. Not as much somatic distress as with unipolar. Energy frenzied.
>
>Barbara,
I have to agreewith jazzdog's classification:
"It's my understanding that unipolar depression is the anxious, insomniac, losing-weight variety, and bipolar depression involves sleeping too much, having no energy, and gaining weight. But there are also mixed states, anxious hypomanias, etc., so who knows?"
Let me say that I am a confirmed Akiskalian with a Bipolar NOS diagnosis. (Bipolar spectrum essentially--not as picky about length of episode.)
I think your description of unipolar depression is closer to bipolar type. My pdoc would say that in bipolar patients sluggishness and fatigue, slowness are all attributes of depression.
The other stuff is a mixed state--hypomanic restlessness mixed in.
"Classical" 20th century definitions count insomnia as a symptom. In my opinion this only applies to typical major depression (which really ought to be called atypical, because it seems to be anything but the norm.
My hypothetical case of a patient presenting with typical major unipolar depression. White male aged 50 at first onset, no history of cardiac disease or substance abuse.
Abby
Posted by BarbaraCat on August 15, 2002, at 13:29:46
In reply to Re: I would revise your categories » BarbaraCat, posted by Abby on August 15, 2002, at 11:46:43
Thanks Abby,
I'm still confused, though. I have varying kinds of 'depression', and have come to suspect that the *crazier* brand is the bipolar mixed-states variety. This seems to be hypomania overlayed with classic depressive symptoms. It has a nightmarish quality all its own and goes way beyond unipolar in sheer terror factor. The only differentiation I can come up with where mixed states differs from unipolar with axiety is that I have had periodic text-book cases of hypomania (not as many as I would like, alas). These hypomanic and a few manic episodes put me in the bipolar category, even though major depression is the primary symptom. Since starting lithium, I've had depression with anxiety but thank God, none of the mixed states stuff. I believe that we, the sufferers of such, and not the textbooks, are likely to be the expert sources on this topic.> >
> > BarbaraCat Unipolar: Dragging, heavy, sitting on the couch for hours too exhausted or disinterested to move, don't give a rip. No interest in anything, cynical, sarcastic, critical, sleep alot, feel like I'm moving though mud. Feel flat and grim, no joy, everything is a burden and a struggle. Hate life and myself, quiet despair. Body hurts and feels sick. Energy stagnant.
> >
> > BarbaraCat Bipolar: Desperate, frantic, doom and destruction, insomnia, nightmare quality to everything, frantic pacing, hysterical anguished sobbing, hypersensitive, hyper aware of 'existential pain', being sucked into the void, horrible hopelessness. Feel abandoned, cast out and lost in a hostile universe. Scary, black images of decay and desolation. Falling apart, nerves and brain feel inflamed. Not as much somatic distress as with unipolar. Energy frenzied.
> >
> >
>
> Barbara,
>
> I have to agreewith jazzdog's classification:
>
> "It's my understanding that unipolar depression is the anxious, insomniac, losing-weight variety, and bipolar depression involves sleeping too much, having no energy, and gaining weight. But there are also mixed states, anxious hypomanias, etc., so who knows?"
>
>
> Let me say that I am a confirmed Akiskalian with a Bipolar NOS diagnosis. (Bipolar spectrum essentially--not as picky about length of episode.)
>
> I think your description of unipolar depression is closer to bipolar type. My pdoc would say that in bipolar patients sluggishness and fatigue, slowness are all attributes of depression.
>
> The other stuff is a mixed state--hypomanic restlessness mixed in.
>
> "Classical" 20th century definitions count insomnia as a symptom. In my opinion this only applies to typical major depression (which really ought to be called atypical, because it seems to be anything but the norm.
>
> My hypothetical case of a patient presenting with typical major unipolar depression. White male aged 50 at first onset, no history of cardiac disease or substance abuse.
>
> Abby
Posted by BarbaraCat on August 15, 2002, at 13:29:48
In reply to Re: I would revise your categories » BarbaraCat, posted by Abby on August 15, 2002, at 11:46:43
Thanks Abby,
I'm still confused, though. I have varying kinds of 'depression', and have come to suspect that the *crazier* brand is the bipolar mixed-states variety. This seems to be hypomania overlayed with classic depressive symptoms. It has a nightmarish quality all its own and goes way beyond unipolar in sheer terror factor. The only differentiation I can come up with where mixed states differs from unipolar with axiety is that I have had periodic text-book cases of hypomania (not as many as I would like, alas). These hypomanic and a few manic episodes put me in the bipolar category, even though major depression is the primary symptom. Since starting lithium, I've had depression with anxiety but thank God, none of the mixed states stuff. I believe that we, the sufferers of such, and not the textbooks, are likely to be the expert sources on this topic.> >
> > BarbaraCat Unipolar: Dragging, heavy, sitting on the couch for hours too exhausted or disinterested to move, don't give a rip. No interest in anything, cynical, sarcastic, critical, sleep alot, feel like I'm moving though mud. Feel flat and grim, no joy, everything is a burden and a struggle. Hate life and myself, quiet despair. Body hurts and feels sick. Energy stagnant.
> >
> > BarbaraCat Bipolar: Desperate, frantic, doom and destruction, insomnia, nightmare quality to everything, frantic pacing, hysterical anguished sobbing, hypersensitive, hyper aware of 'existential pain', being sucked into the void, horrible hopelessness. Feel abandoned, cast out and lost in a hostile universe. Scary, black images of decay and desolation. Falling apart, nerves and brain feel inflamed. Not as much somatic distress as with unipolar. Energy frenzied.
> >
> >
>
> Barbara,
>
> I have to agreewith jazzdog's classification:
>
> "It's my understanding that unipolar depression is the anxious, insomniac, losing-weight variety, and bipolar depression involves sleeping too much, having no energy, and gaining weight. But there are also mixed states, anxious hypomanias, etc., so who knows?"
>
>
> Let me say that I am a confirmed Akiskalian with a Bipolar NOS diagnosis. (Bipolar spectrum essentially--not as picky about length of episode.)
>
> I think your description of unipolar depression is closer to bipolar type. My pdoc would say that in bipolar patients sluggishness and fatigue, slowness are all attributes of depression.
>
> The other stuff is a mixed state--hypomanic restlessness mixed in.
>
> "Classical" 20th century definitions count insomnia as a symptom. In my opinion this only applies to typical major depression (which really ought to be called atypical, because it seems to be anything but the norm.
>
> My hypothetical case of a patient presenting with typical major unipolar depression. White male aged 50 at first onset, no history of cardiac disease or substance abuse.
>
> Abby
Posted by cybercafe on August 15, 2002, at 16:17:48
In reply to Re: I would revise your categories » Abby, posted by BarbaraCat on August 15, 2002, at 13:29:48
> I'm still confused, though. I have varying kinds of 'depression', and have come to suspect that the *crazier* brand is the bipolar mixed-states variety. This seems to be hypomania overlayed with classic depressive symptoms. It
yep i think abby agrees with you -- as do i, oh goddess of endocrine disorders <bows>
Posted by MomO3 on August 18, 2002, at 0:14:05
In reply to Re: I would revise your categories » Abby, posted by BarbaraCat on August 15, 2002, at 13:29:46
You said it sister!!
> I believe that we, the sufferers of such, and not the textbooks, are likely to be the expert sources on this topic.
Now I have a couple questions for you. You say you are taking lithim, are you taking anything else (I have to assume you are - don't I?)?
I conversed with you when I recently went through one of those mixed-states hells you describe..., so the pdoc told me no more anti-depressants - which promptly plunged me into an abysmal depression. Now a month into taking Effexor, I am simultaneously cleaning out every closet and every room in my house. I feel good, probably a genuine hypomanic. I am ok with it right now, but I am already cutting back the Effexor dose to prevent it from going too far. I already know my neurontin doesn't help with the mixed state, and that I am probably just biding my time before I end up on depakote - honestly I want to lose as much weight as I can before I have to fill a script for that one. Have you gained weight on the lithium?
Posted by SoS on August 18, 2002, at 1:20:44
In reply to Re: I would revise your categories » BarbaraCat, posted by MomO3 on August 18, 2002, at 0:14:05
I know you weren't posting to me, but I just have a few words of advice if you end up on depakote: If you start to gain weight, DON'T IGNORE IT! Try to get off of it ASAP so you don't keep gaining. It's hell to get it off. On the plus side, if you don't gain weight w/ it, or if you take an extra med so you stay the same size, it can be a comfortable medication to take, at least for me. I'd still be on it if I didn't gain all the weight (40lbs in 2 months). I was also on paxil at the time, so it could have been that that caused my weight gain, but the depakote definitely prevented me from losing it. After I got off of it, the pounds melted off, AFTER I had given up on exercising. Anyway, sorry for rambling. Please don't be scared to take it, but just watch ur scale.
SoS
Posted by cybercafe on August 18, 2002, at 9:17:17
In reply to Re: I would revise your categories » BarbaraCat, posted by MomO3 on August 18, 2002, at 0:14:05
>Effexor dose to prevent it from going too far. I already know my neurontin doesn't help with the mixed state, and that I am probably just biding
wow that's strange ... i keep hearing that neurontin doesn't work for someone for their mania ... but i find that if i am really getting out of control like today i just take it and the more i take the more sedated i feel... i mean i'm sure if i kept taking it i would eventually fall asleep (i took 4 400 mg capsules) ...
i actually hear from literature that neurontin is supposed to be better for depression, but my experiences are more in line with the anecdotal evidence i have heard from actual sufferers on alt.support.depression.manic
alt.support.anxiety-panic alt.support.depression.medicationi.e. that it sucks for depression (unless it's all anxiety)
so basically i'm just asking... doesn't neurontin sedate you at all????
Posted by cybercafe on August 18, 2002, at 9:23:22
In reply to Re: I would revise your categories » MomO3, posted by SoS on August 18, 2002, at 1:20:44
>depakote: If you start to gain weight, DON'T IGNORE IT! Try to get off of it ASAP so you don't keep gaining. It's hell to get it off. On the plus side, if you don't gain weight w/ it, or if
hmm... i didn't gain weight while on it... but i do hear now that it may cause increased cholesterol ? ... i think this was my experience (though my diet has always sucked) ....
i wonder how good the other medications are, lithium (antidepressant effect sounds good), tiagabine and gabatrine thingies sound good for anxiety and bipolar (?) .... lamotrigine sounds good too ...oh.... and what about Pig Feed?? ... i havn't been keeping up with the news on pig feed
anyways.... i know when you're depressed your thinking is "i am definately guaranteed to get all of the worst side effects on any med, and every med has side effects, therefore it's hopeless" ... but in actual fact you *can* find that a medication that hasn't worked for another does indeed work for you
Posted by oona on August 18, 2002, at 19:36:21
In reply to Re: I would revise your categories » Abby, posted by BarbaraCat on August 15, 2002, at 13:29:48
BarbaraCat,
My pdoc said there can be different degrees or intensity to the bipolar whereas my mom would go into hypomania or deep seasonal depression (she also had thyroid problems) My bipolar is less severe and my mood swings much less in my post menopausal state. I used to almost be psychotic once a month and also remembering that every time I was hospitalized, I had just started my monthlies. So I am sure the hormones play a part in all of this.
oona
>
Posted by momo3 on August 18, 2002, at 21:54:20
In reply to Re: I would revise your categories » MomO3, posted by cybercafe on August 18, 2002, at 9:17:17
> i actually hear from literature that neurontin is supposed to be better for depression, but my experiences are more in line with the anecdotal evidence i have heard from actual sufferers on alt.support.depression.manic
> alt.support.anxiety-panic alt.support.depression.medication
>
> i.e. that it sucks for depression (unless it's all anxiety)
>
> so basically i'm just asking... doesn't neurontin sedate you at all????When I first started taking it I was quite sedated, and if I take a bunch during the day - my husband said it was like I had been drinking or something. I am not sure whether what I experienced was mixed states or just very rapid cycling but I described it before like being a caged animal - like a big cat - who smashes himself against the bars of his cage over and over again trying to get out, and when efforts fail he just gives up and lays down to die. I would start the day frantic and frenzied - not euphoric but definitely motivated and uplifted - then I would have an apocalyptic anxiety attack that would leave me too scared and depressed to move. After daily recurrences for about a week and a half- I decided I had had enough... so one day I, moved my Dr's appt forward a week, switched all of my medication around (meaning switched back to old stuff still in the cabinet) and followed it with a good drinking binge. When the hangover wore off I was fine.
Moral of that story is that I like the neurontin pretty well, but it did little or nothing to stop what was happening with intraday cycling...AND I will never take paxil again.
So I stopped taking paxil and dove into the deep end of a murky depression. The neurontin, didn't stop that either.
I was then force-fed hellbutrin. I raged angrily at my family for the entire 2 weeks that I was on it. To my surprise the neurontin couldn't even mediate my anger.
Actually... after writing all of this I am not sure why I am still taking neurontin? I guess - unlike most of the other stuff that I have just hated, I don't hate it... and if I don't hate it it must be doing something right? Or maybe I just like milking my insurance company out of $250/mo while I pay a $20 copay.
Sorry for the long post ;-)
Holly
Posted by BarbaraCat on August 18, 2002, at 23:53:28
In reply to Re: I would revise your categories » BarbaraCat, posted by MomO3 on August 18, 2002, at 0:14:05
You say you are taking lithim, are you taking anything else (I have to assume you are - don't I?)?
>
Yes, I'm taking a bunch of others. Remeron, I've cut back from 75mg to 45 and will continue on down as far as I can. The combo of Remeron and lithium has caused me to plump up in that I've gained 25 lbs that I haven't been able to budge. I'm also taking Neurontin which helps with the anxiety but I'm not sure if it's doing all that much to tell the truth. I take Ambien for sleep and lorezapam as needed for anxiety. I'm also on natural thyroid for hypothyroidism and natural estrogen and progesterone for menopause. I've been taking maca recently, which is a tuber grown in Peru that helps with balancing hormones and energy. It's helped alot, especially with fibromyalgia symptoms. Let's see, what else, high dose fish oil. Given all that, I'm still not feeling all that great and would love to find a combo that works. I still have alot of anxiety, sleeplessness, worry. But I think these times we live in breed such feelings and I know I'm not alone or especially neurotic for brooding. Exercise (alot of it) of any type is the best medicine for me. When I slack off I start feeling over-amped and tangled up.I was on Effexor for a short time and can't remember if I liked it or not. My longterm AD was zoloft which I was on for 6-8 years. Remeron is the only AD that didn't spin me off into a mixed states everytime I increased it due to the inevitable poop out. But who knows, maybe all I needed with all of my nonsuccessful meds was a little lithium? So much of my depression is due to high stress and anxiety reactivity, and the mixed states hell feels like a constant frayed wire. However, I have had the sluggish vegetative kind of depression as well and that has it's own miseries, especially when stuff keeps piling up and you just can't move off the couch. But given a choice, I'd take this kind any day over mixed states.
Posted by BarbaraCat on August 18, 2002, at 23:56:50
In reply to Re: I would revise your categories » MomO3, posted by cybercafe on August 18, 2002, at 9:17:17
> so basically i'm just asking... doesn't neurontin sedate you at all????Yes, but it's a nice mellow feeling rather than a benzo fuzz. Neurontin doesn't always work, however, and I find that I have to keep increasing the dose to get that nice feeling. Hate continually increasing dosages, I mean, where does it end?
Posted by cybercafe on August 19, 2002, at 5:23:01
In reply to Re: Neurontin » cybercafe, posted by momo3 on August 18, 2002, at 21:54:20
> When I first started taking it I was quite sedated, and if I take a bunch during the day - my husband said it was like I had been drinking
heh heh ... well that doesn't sound too bad ;)
>or something. I am not sure whether what I experienced was mixed states or just very rapid cycling but I described it before like being a caged animal - like a big cat - who smashes
ah yes... paxil made me like that.... though instead of depression i went from euphoria to caged animal back to euphoria ...
... everytime i found out it took 4 months for a pdoc appt, i would go caged_animal*10 ...... i am thinking caged_animal = energized_frustration .... i mean i had an awesome girlfriend and an awesome job and i was terribly afraid of losing it ... and thanks to the 4 month wait, i lost it all!! :) :) ....
>then I would have an apocalyptic anxiety attack that would leave me too scared and depressed to move. After daily recurrences for about a week
yep... though i just took benzos for the anxiety ...
> Moral of that story is that I like the neurontin pretty well, but it did little or nothing to stop what was happening with intraday cycling...AND I will never take paxil again.
hmmm.. how high a dose did you go ? ....
.... this would seem to fit with evidence that neurontin is about as effective as placebo... maybe placebo would work for us? :)
> I was then force-fed hellbutrin. I raged angrily at my family for the entire 2 weeks that I was on it. To my surprise the neurontin couldn't even mediate my anger.
.... so the neurontin lost it's sedating effect? ... that's what i'm curious about i guess... is the sedation a side effect that disappears or is it the primary effect ...
> Sorry for the long post ;-)
i think it's really important to write long posts... or at least give enough detail for people to understand what causes what... like if 10 people tell me a med works and 10 tell me it doesn't... i'd like to know that the 10 who it worked for were taking dosages 5 times higher than those who it didn't work for!!! ... otherwise a person giving less information might cause you to miss out on trying a med that might be excellent for you :)
cybercafe
Posted by cybercafe on August 19, 2002, at 5:28:07
In reply to Re: I would revise your categories » cybercafe, posted by BarbaraCat on August 18, 2002, at 23:56:50
> > so basically i'm just asking... doesn't neurontin sedate you at all????
>
> Yes, but it's a nice mellow feeling rather than a benzo fuzz. Neurontin doesn't always work, however, and I find that I have to keep increasing the dose to get that nice feeling. Hate continually increasing dosages, I mean, where does it end?oh... i didn't know you have to keep increasing dosages.. for how long and how high ?
i actually started by going up to 2700 mg / day ... then when i went off effexor and depakote and went on parnate i went down to 400 mg and had no anxiety .... now that i'm getting euphoric mania i'm up to 1600 or 2000 mg ... as i don't want to go back down to depression .... i also know that if i don't sedate myself i'm going to make a fool out of myself... :)
Posted by BarbaraCat on August 19, 2002, at 13:19:17
In reply to Re: I would revise your categories, posted by cybercafe on August 19, 2002, at 5:28:07
> oh... i didn't know you have to keep increasing dosages.. for how long and how high ?
Perhaps that's just me, however, my doc had me start with 300 mg three x day and to increase up to 900 mg 3x day. I just started the 900 mg, but only twice a day. I really hate becoming acclimated to what seems to me a high dose. But then again, maybe it's not such a big deal. I take vitamin B's and other nutrients at a pretty high dose, so I should probably think of neurontin as a neuro-nutrient of sorts.
> now that i'm getting euphoric mania i'm up to 1600 or 2000 mg ... as i don't want to go back down to depression .... i also know that if i don't sedate myself i'm going to make a fool out of myself... :)
Oh, lucky you! I love that sparkling, glimmering euphoria. Everything is delightful and feels so damn witty and efferverscent. But alas, it's only a fleeting thing and I know what you mean about making a fool out of yourself. I tend to think I'm beyond the wisdom of staying sober and shutting up and have ended up in some dicey situations. Besides, the highs are always followed by bad lows. I wonder if the lows are exacerbated by burning the candle at both ends, so to speak. I mean, if we could somehow reign in the out of control spin, get enough sleep, stay in our bodies, perhaps that enjoyable high can be sustained? Maybe not as intensely, but it would be nice to hang on to some of the magic without spinning out into disorganization and crashing into bleakness.
Posted by BarbaraCat on August 19, 2002, at 13:57:33
In reply to Re: Neurontin » cybercafe, posted by momo3 on August 18, 2002, at 21:54:20
Dear Holly,
How in God's name do you manage to be a Mom to 3 kids while going through all you've described? I marvel at you. I've thought many times while in a bad state how utterly impossible it would be if I had kids on top of it. I know parents say that you just do what you have to do, but even so, the stress and disruption would seem magnified exponentially with a mood disorder. I bless you and your Mommy-ness.I think it was Cybercafe who said that the 'caged animal' feeling was largely due to frustration gone out of control. I totally agree. I get this feeling of wild energy all bottled up in my body with no outlet. I can't even work it out because I'm too frazzled and fried to put one foot in front of the other, and during these times I feel truly ill.
The confusion for me stems from the fact that when I start raging or weeping, there are perfectly good reasons for doing so. The world is in an awful state, my childhood was very frightening, being out of work and physically and mentally ill is terrifying. It's hard to separate when I'm reacting normally to situations and when I'm descending into the pit again. And the rage! whew! My childhood was very abusive and I have much to be enraged about. For the most part, I can look at it philosophically and with compassion towards my poor clueless parents. But sometimes something will trigger a nerve, especially when I'm on the edge, and it's like a sleeping volcano erupts. It's all very real and not imagined, but my antenna picks up only the bad scary and evil stuff when I'm depressed. I absolutely forget about things like grace, endurance, friendship and family, etc. Unfortunately, I've hurt many feelings along the way during my nastier episodes. People may forgive, especially those who have suffered similarly themselves, but no one ever forgets.
Posted by cybercafe on August 19, 2002, at 23:07:11
In reply to Re: I would revise your categories » cybercafe, posted by BarbaraCat on August 19, 2002, at 13:19:17
> Perhaps that's just me, however, my doc had me start with 300 mg three x day and to increase up to 900 mg 3x day. I just started the 900 mg, but only twice a day. I really hate becoming acclimated to what seems to me a high dose. But
ah that's not so high... i'd definately try 3600 mg myself since i want neurontin to work for me (so i don't have to go onto a drug with side effects) ...
> Oh, lucky you! I love that sparkling, glimmering euphoria. Everything is delightful and feels so damn witty and efferverscent. But
actually it's more like wanting to go things than actually feeling happy.... but not agitation-like doing things... though i find if i add neurontin sometimes my desire to move around and do something changes into more of a calm peaceful alertness ... yeah, it's only if i actually use that need to do things to socialize etc that i actually get the euphoria out of the things i do...
>tend to think I'm beyond the wisdom of staying sober and shutting up and have ended up in some dicey situations. Besides, the highs are always
.... yeah ... well it's like you can't pay attention to your environment you are so busy... so much is going on on the inside ... so you figure, why bother to worry about what people think? which is perfectly rational... because you don't know that you're going to come down --- and start being hyper sensitive again
>stay in our bodies, perhaps that enjoyable high can be sustained? Maybe not as intensely, but it would be nice to hang on to some of the magic without spinning out into disorganization and crashing into bleakness.
yeah i think some people are chronically hypomanic... and i wonder if i can accomplish this with antidepressants...
however.. i do know that the average person is pretty damn happy... now that i'm starting to remember what it's like :) ... so i'd be glad to start with this feeling... and then take small risks later ...
Posted by cybercafe on August 19, 2002, at 23:22:46
In reply to Re: Neurontin » momo3, posted by BarbaraCat on August 19, 2002, at 13:57:33
>mentally ill is terrifying. It's hard to separate when I'm reacting normally to situations and when I'm descending into the pit again. And the rage! whew! My childhood was very abusive and I have much to be enraged about. For the most part, I can look at it philosophically and with compassion towards my poor clueless
yeah society aint very flexible... i mean i could do really good work if it weren't 8+ hours a day, 5 days a week.... but it's really hard to get a decent job less than 40 hours a week
>depressed. I absolutely forget about things like grace, endurance, friendship and family, etc. Unfortunately, I've hurt many feelings along the way during my nastier episodes. People may forgive, especially those who have suffered similarly themselves, but no one ever forgets.
hmmm.... ! this i call irritability that comes along when i'm depressed..... like i get pissed off at my mother (who isn't depressed) when she whines about how hard her life is and how i'm not perfect... like hello! being depressed isn't about being selfish :) .... but this is more irritable bad negative feeling.... more on the hopeless end of the spectrum
whereas the caged animal to me... isn't a negative feeling ... the frustration comes from the fact that i think i can get a lot better, but people are just totally unreasonable in being unwilling to help ... it's a very positive feeling in many ways cuz it gets me to do things... ummm.. really when it gets very caged animalish its hard to put up with.... but it's still a lot better than depression, cuz there is an expectation of things getting better --- whereas the irritibility that you describe is accompanied by feelings that things suck and they aren't going to get better and i am sick of doing this and having to do it over and over again ....
irritability is more like people actively doing things to me... like parents wanting me to clean up stuff when i am totally depressed and fatigued and being unwilling to understand how i can't do it...
whereas caged animalness is like me wanting to do things .. me wanting people to do things for me... which they won't ... like pdoc seeing me sometime soon, or cars on the road that won't get out of the way, etc...
Posted by BarbaraCat on August 20, 2002, at 0:49:01
In reply to Re: I would revise your categories, posted by cybercafe on August 19, 2002, at 23:07:11
> however.. i do know that the average person is pretty damn happy...
You really think so? This is a relief because from my vantage point most people look pretty pissed off and scared. I guess it's the filters we look through. When I'm having a good happy time with people I care about I look around and think 'oh, this is easy, life is sweet'. But I still have a hard time believing that the average Joe is happy. Maybe in other countries, but in America? I'm very open to hearing otherwise.
Posted by cybercafe on August 20, 2002, at 15:39:00
In reply to Re: I would revise your categories » cybercafe, posted by BarbaraCat on August 20, 2002, at 0:49:01
> You really think so? This is a relief because from my vantage point most people look pretty pissed off and scared. I guess it's the filters we look through. When I'm having a good happy time with people I care about I look around and think 'oh, this is easy, life is sweet'. But I still have a hard time believing that the average Joe is happy. Maybe in other countries, but in America? I'm very open to hearing otherwise.
oh totally... people are very happy... though they might not look it ... and might even display frustration and anger ... i make it a habit of asking people how they think and feel about things... and man everyone is fun ... and now that i'm stable i feel the same way... everything seems so interesting and enjoyable ...
you should ask your doc and/or people close to you how they feel about things that you just find overwhelming or hard to deal with ...
Posted by BarbaraCat on August 20, 2002, at 17:16:04
In reply to Re: I would revise your categories, posted by cybercafe on August 20, 2002, at 15:39:00
Thanks, CyberC. That would be a good reality check and it sounds like fun. There might even be a book in it, you think?
> > You really think so? This is a relief because from my vantage point most people look pretty pissed off and scared. I guess it's the filters we look through. When I'm having a good happy time with people I care about I look around and think 'oh, this is easy, life is sweet'. But I still have a hard time believing that the average Joe is happy. Maybe in other countries, but in America? I'm very open to hearing otherwise.
>
> oh totally... people are very happy... though they might not look it ... and might even display frustration and anger ... i make it a habit of asking people how they think and feel about things... and man everyone is fun ... and now that i'm stable i feel the same way... everything seems so interesting and enjoyable ...
>
> you should ask your doc and/or people close to you how they feel about things that you just find overwhelming or hard to deal with ...
Posted by momo3 on August 20, 2002, at 21:44:08
In reply to Re: Neurontin » momo3, posted by BarbaraCat on August 19, 2002, at 13:57:33
> Dear Holly,
> How in God's name do you manage to be a Mom to 3 kids while going through all you've described?Well... the answer I usually give is good psychiatric drugs.... but you may know better than that ;-) I don't know if you know, but my oldest is 3 1/2 and my twins are 22 months. Sometimes I feel like a huge failure for them because while the other moms (and mothers of multiples) that I know are out taking their kids to play groups and play in the park dates at 10am, I couldn't imagine leaving my house before noon without help. Most of the time I am too overwhelmed by the prospect of getting them all fed, cleaned up, dressed and out to the car to even consider trying to leave the house. I am also afraid of skin-cancer (I have had a melanoma removed), and I don't take my kids outside during the day... especially not in the summer in TX.
The way I survive is essentially by routine, we have cereal every morning, watch the same cartoons, have pb&j for lunch and I force a nap for all 3 at the same time (although it's often just a quiet time for the 3 yr old). I am not very good a planning meals so we eat out alot in the evening when my husband comes home. My house is also one of the most baby proof places you will ever see...so I don't have to work too hard to keep them from hurting themselves.
>
> I'm too frazzled and fried to put one foot in front of the otherThese are almost the exact words I used to try to explain paxil to my pdoc. I was too confused to even clean my kitchen (but I could remember how to make pb&j on paper plates).
The more I learn about this disorder the more I understand about my drinking habits. I stopped nursing the twins in December and didn't get a Dr appt until March, during that time I would start drinking mid-afternoon. I will say that the neurontin has curbed my desire to drink... and I am reasonably sure that my periods of heavy drinking that started in my teen years were a way of self medicating the mixed states. I took prozac as monotherapy for 9 years (off and on of course) - I knew I always took less than the prescribed dose, but I thought I was just being cheap. One time in college I went up to 40mg/day and resolved to remember to take it every day... I went completely nuts, I couldn't describe the feeling at all until doing the mood charting this year... now I get it.
>
> The confusion for me stems from the fact that when I start raging or weeping, there are perfectly good reasons for doing so.Interesting... usually I will start raging or crying and intellectually I will know that I am being irrational about what has triggered it, but my reaction to it seems so out of my control. Things come flying out of my mouth that I don't even want to say.. I have lost more than one friend too over my sharp tongue.
Holly
Posted by MomO3 on August 20, 2002, at 22:10:27
In reply to Re: Neurontin, posted by cybercafe on August 19, 2002, at 5:23:01
> hmmm.. how high a dose did you go ? ....
1 pill per day - what's the standard pill size? 20mg?
> > .... this would seem to fit with evidence that neurontin is about as effective as placebo... maybe placebo would work for us? :)maybe so...
> .... so the neurontin lost it's sedating effect? ... that's what i'm curious about i guess... is the sedation a side effect that disappears or is it the primary effect ...Yes, the sedation is a side effect that disappears.. or well... is atleast reduced over time. My Dr took my increased anger as a sign to up the dosage of neurontin from 1200 to 2400mg. The other night I ran out of klonopin, and I thought - well I'll just take 6 neurontin (1800mg) - instead of my usual 4-5. Nothing. I was up until 5am. I had my husband go to the store at 3am and buy some tylenol flu nighttime.
> > Sorry for the long post ;-)
>
> i think it's really important to write long posts... or at least give enough detail for people to understand what causes what... like if 10 people tell me a med works and 10 tell me it doesn't... i'd like to know that the 10 who it worked for were taking dosages 5 times higher than those who it didn't work for!!! ... otherwise a person giving less information might cause you to miss out on trying a med that might be excellent for you :)FYI - My current prescription for neurontin is 2400mg/day. I take 1200-1500 at bedtime and usually 300-600 during the day depending on how I feel. At 1200mg during the day I was 'sloppy'.
Posted by MomO3 on August 20, 2002, at 22:21:06
In reply to Re: I would revise your categories, posted by cybercafe on August 20, 2002, at 15:39:00
Sometimes I think everyone is miserable too.. but then there's folks like my husband. He's just easy to please, he doesn't complain much, he doesn't expect much. Life is just simple for him - planning, and rules, and anxiety are things that are just not in his make-up. Reminds me of that "don't worry be happy" song. He thinks I just make too much out of everything.
> > You really think so? This is a relief because from my vantage point most people look pretty pissed off and scared. I guess it's the filters we look through. When I'm having a good happy time with people I care about I look around and think 'oh, this is easy, life is sweet'. But I still have a hard time believing that the average Joe is happy. Maybe in other countries, but in America? I'm very open to hearing otherwise.
>
> oh totally... people are very happy... though they might not look it ... and might even display frustration and anger ... i make it a habit of asking people how they think and feel about things... and man everyone is fun ... and now that i'm stable i feel the same way... everything seems so interesting and enjoyable ...
>
> you should ask your doc and/or people close to you how they feel about things that you just find overwhelming or hard to deal with ...
Posted by BarbaraCat on August 21, 2002, at 1:46:12
In reply to Re: Neurontin, posted by momo3 on August 20, 2002, at 21:44:08
Dear Holly,
Having 3 babies so close in age and toddlers - wow. That is amazing, my head reels at the thought. But they must bring you so much joy and baby magic. That's one joy I'll never know, but my cats fill the gap. My husband sounds like yours, also very laid back, pragmatic. Sometimes he drives me nuts with the laid backness, but he's the only guy who has been a solid rock during all my phases.I also started drinking early. The first time I got drunk was at a friend's pajama party where we raided the parent's liquor cabinet. It was like splendor in the grass, literally. My teen years were miserable and by the time I was in 10th grade I discovered amphetamines. It was like a light went on, finally. The next 5-6 years were spent in a haze (I'm a child of the 60's). I also was self-medicating and the only time I felt OK with the world was when I was dancing or high, usually both. I still have an occasional bout with alcohol. I love love love chardonnay but get really screwed up on it. My husband had the *talk* with me on more than one occasion and I promise every time because I know it's not good for my delicate nervous system. But oh, for that instant bliss, that soothing lulling warm place. I've yet to find a med that compares. Neurontin doesn't do a thing, but then again, I haven't had the urge lately, so maybe it's working.
I wish sometimes (most times) that I could curb my anger, my withering scorn, my sharp comments. I end up feeling remorseful for hurting feelings and burning bridges. Usually it's simply a case of taking things too personally, both ways. But you know, sometimes I'm the only one who will stand up and speak my truth, I'm the only one in a group whose bullshit meter is twanging. I'm proud of my courage and honesty, it's a part of me that feels strong and true. But sometimes I long to just flow with life and not be such a lone rebel struggling against the tide - it's exhausting and I don't even know who I'm fighting. Hey Holly, I'll bet if I lived in TX we'd have a gas hanging out, dishing and kvetching, romping with the chilluns, and not getting melanoma. - Barbara
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